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Mono, Poly, and Everything in Between

 
  

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sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
03:29 / 17.04.06
There was an old Poly thread in Head Shop but it's more abstract and I want to deal in pracitcalities.

I've been going out with a few people recently and suspect that I'm going to want to commit to something in a few weeks, but the options I'm being offered vary wildly, from someone who likes super-close, monogamous relationships, to someone who likes exclusivity but is open to being flexible, to someone who is full-blown polyamorous (though isn't in a relationship at the moment).

What I want is someone who I'm emotionally and romantically invested in, but who wouldn't freak out if I have close male friends who occasionally share my bed or kiss me. I'm somehow not particularly jealous physically, but I only want to emotionally bond with one person in an intense way, and I want the other person to be the same.

I've been around polyamorous people but haven't had any training in these matters. Does the kind of relationship I'm describing fall within the rubric of polyamory? Or is it different? And how do I explain what I want to people who are on either side of the fence in a way that would make the most sense? Or do I just want to have my cake and eat it too?

And lastly, what has worked for you?
 
 
Saturn's nod
07:27 / 17.04.06
I am really, really happy to be in a relationship with one person. We have publically declared and asked for support in our intention to have a lifelong faithful relationship only being sexual with each other. I feel really lucky to have found someone who wants to love and grow trust in me the way I love them and learn to trust them.

I have male and female friends whom I love dearly and whom I hug and kiss and sleep next to in the same bed from time to time when we visit each other. But to me, that's not sexual, it's loving nonsexual friendship. The clarity of the agreement between us spouses has made that possible without jealousy so far, because the conversation about what we understand sex to be continues intermittently. We've agreed that if a temptation to be sexual with others arises the matter would be discussed between us as spouses.

I only want to be sexual with my spouse, and it's important to me that the context for that sexual relationship is a lifelong exclusive commitment, on both sides.

Whilst I was growing up I was over-impressed with the rhetoric of all the trendy poly/bi folks. But after being thoroughly messed up by the lying, self-deceiving, pain, exploitation, and confusion I experienced within my particular social group it is a blessed relief to have moved out into a completely different form. My spouse, the person who has shown me the most amazing love and care, was clear about a preference for exclusive commitment with our sexuality, I tried it out, and wow, it's incredible. We've only been together four years so far, which is a tiny snippet of a lifetime, but I think we are getting off to a good start.

Of course this is just my personal experience and if there's any generalisation to be made it is probably: everyone's experience is different. (Which I might as well just call $standard_dislaimer and to my signature file to save on typing.)
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
08:42 / 17.04.06
Monogamy is an institution originating in property law and personally I find it degrading and repressive. If you believe that people can and should own each other like chattel, great, more power to you, but I think it's stupid. I think it warps people's personalities and leads to hatred, resentment, and salty tears. But, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, I have issues!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:47 / 17.04.06
What I want is someone who I'm emotionally and romantically invested in, but who wouldn't freak out if I have close male friends who occasionally share my bed or kiss me.

Fair enough. What if your partner, who I assume will also be male, has close female friends that he occasionally kisses or shares beds with?
 
 
Ex
09:08 / 17.04.06
Qalyn - there are a lot of other bits of sexual interraction backed up by law (including heterosexuality and parenthood) which people now 'do', while actively trying to avoid the assumptions of previous centuries. I don't think people can and should own each other like chattel is my take on monogamy.

I don't know if that's 'issues', it just seems like a particular angle on how history affects daily existence. Do you think that something can never get rid of the associations with which it's been institutionalised?
 
 
Ganesh
09:22 / 17.04.06
I have male and female friends whom I love dearly and whom I hug and kiss and sleep next to in the same bed from time to time when we visit each other. But to me, that's not sexual, it's loving nonsexual friendship. The clarity of the agreement between us spouses has made that possible without jealousy so far, because the conversation about what we understand sex to be continues intermittently. We've agreed that if a temptation to be sexual with others arises the matter would be discussed between us as spouses.

Particularly crucial, I think, is a mutual understanding and agreement of what constitutes "sexual" and "nonsexual" in the context of a given relationship. If I go off and enjoy a bondage scene, say, with someone other than my partner, is it "nonsexual" if kissing and/or genital contact doesn't take place? Even if (my partner knows that) bondage play forms a large part of my own sexuality?

Point being, if the sexual/nonsexual distinction is key, then it too needs to be carefully negotiated between partners.
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
09:35 / 17.04.06
Monogamy is an institution originating in property law and personally I find it degrading and repressive.

I think of marriage that way but not necessarily monogamy even though, lo and behold, I do find myself recently wanting to get married someday, retrograde the institution may be.

And you've agreed to be in exclusive relationships before haven't you? So what's that about?
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
09:45 / 17.04.06
What if your partner, who I assume will also be male, has close female friends that he occasionally kisses or shares beds with?

I'd be totally fine with that. I may grit my teeth every now and again, but on the whole I think it's natural for my partner to have attractions for other people and that he (yes, it's pretty much always been a he) should be free to express them as long as it doesn't threaten our relationship.

My problem is that in my experience, people I've been with want exclusivity, and poly people I've contemplated being with (I haven't been with a person I would define as poly) want to be in other committed relationships.

What I want i ssomething in between, someone who puts prioritizes our relationship and doesn't make commitments to others, but where we also don't have total control over each other's bodies. For me, this includes sex. Like, I hate the stereotype of the wife fretting over whether the husband has an affair with a hot woman while traveling. For me it's like, "Of course! Go on!" But I don't want him to come home and be like, "Honey, I think I'm going to get another girlfriend. Isn't that cool?"
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
09:53 / 17.04.06
Do you think that something can never get rid of the associations with which it's been institutionalised?

If you could get everyone to acknowledge the extent to which they are brainwashed and work consciously and assiduously to correct it, then sure, you can absolve yourself of history--but then, in this case, I believe monogamy would then also become a minority choice, like genital piercing: fine for those who like it, but obviously not the default.

There is this phrase, "To have and to hold." You think it is a sweet promise to hug forever, but it is, in fact, legalese. A marriage is a promise to protect the property of the husband (primarily his children, but also his wife as the babymaker) and the property of the wife (the revenue-generating beast of burden). People "hold" property. And who wants to live with a machine? Very few people. What they really want is A) to control someone's behavior, and B) to not be responsible for their own feelings.

A contract is a compromise and a compromise is two people not getting what they want. As they say in business, if no one is happy, then everyone prospers. Someone will say that we're not talking about marriage, we're talking about monogamy. Monogamy without a legal contract is even worse than marriage, because both parties are subject to exactly the same emotional blackmail and badinage, with none of the legal protections or advantages.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
09:56 / 17.04.06
And you've agreed to be in exclusive relationships before haven't you? So what's that about?

There are two kinds of people in the world, Sibyline: me and everybody else. I compromise a lot.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:57 / 17.04.06
Possibly, to an extent, it illustrates the gap between policy and practice. It may be a European thing, but there's something a bit bobby-sox and Gene Pitney about this "Hal, Chad and Tad all want to go steady with me - but which will give me the relationship closest to what I want?" situation as described. If the swains are equal in absolutely every other way apart from how they would like to construct a relationship, or if the only thing that really matters to you is whether or not you get to kiss other guys, that makes sense. Otherwise, surely "is our idea of the kind of relationship we want compatible?" is one of the questions applied to a potential partner, along with "do I like him?", "is he good dinner-party company?", "are we sexually compatible?", "is he just a little bit too close to his mother?", and so on. Sometimes somebody will like somebody else in lots of ways, and in order to be involved with them will try to work with them on elements of the relationship which may not be natural to them but which are very important to the other part, such as monogamy or for that matter polygamy.

Now, it seems that you have basically already defined what you wanted - a relationship in which you are allowed certain, negotiated forms of physical contact with other people. In your first formulation, this physical contact stoped short of het.pen.sex, and in your second formulation it did not, but it imposed conditions on the het.pen.sex - presumably, that het.pen.sex should occur only with people who are not going to be around in the everyday life of the two people having the relationship. At a guess, I'd presume that emotional closeness and allowable physical closeness are on a sliding scale - sexual intimacy is allowed with people with whom there is no ongoing emotional intimacy, whereas people who were a regular part of one or more of the couple's emotional experience would be suitable for kissing and bed-sharing but not het.pen.sex.

All this being the case - and that's a pretty traditional, white-collar graduate relationship - personally I'd work out who I actually wanted to go out with, explain that this was how I saw an ideal ongoing relationship, and see what they said. If they were not happy with that, I would then balance how much I liked them with how much I liked having the kind of relationship they didn't want to have, and see if a compromise could be reached.
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
10:08 / 17.04.06
Yeah, Haus, I didn't mean to make it sound like these three people are identical or anything like that, but I can see myself being with each of them longterm, except for the niggling issue of exclusivity, which seems to loom large in my relationships.

In America, there's a lot of "This is who I am and you just have to deal with it" rhetoric afoot, which I've gotten used to. I've historically been willing to compromise for people, but it hasn't necessarily worked out the other way around.

The annoying problem is that at the moment, I think I may like the poly one best. I'm used to negotiating in the other direction (less sexual exclusivity) that I don't know about tellling someone, "You can't have other girlfriends!" It makes me feel so bourgeois.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
10:12 / 17.04.06
[Post deleted by Qalyn because Qalyn went in a personal direction that he regrets. Sorry for the inconvenience.]
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
10:13 / 17.04.06
There are two kinds of people in the world, Sibyline: me and everybody else. I compromise a lot.

Yeah, you're one of the most uncompromising people I know, yet also one of the most compromised. It's an essential contradiction.
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
10:18 / 17.04.06
You are sort of the dictionary definition of bourgeois, dude. Not specifically because of your preferences or attitudes, but in terms of what else I know about your life.

Was about to ask how much of our real-life knowledge about each other we can bring here. That answers my question I guess.

Is it bourgeois to have a measure of worldly ambition? Because it's really the only thing I have right now, so I'm not really sure why you would think of me that way.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:19 / 17.04.06
Well, poly has a lot of different meanings. It's possible that what you want - in effect, emotional exclusivity with an ongoing (het-pen-sexual) relationship as the "proof" of emotional commitment to oneself or to others - will not be acceptable, in which case either one of you alters your position or the relationship doesn't happen.

The issue with the rules-lawyering of relationships - including strictly monogamous ones - is that if you start looking for loopholes you will find them. So, your poly person might develop relationships in which they become very emotionally involved with other women, talk endlessly about how much they want to have a (het-pen-sexual) relationship with each other, but how that would be wrong, chip away at the boundaries of kissing/bed sharing in a slow crawl, and eventually end up either doing sex or becoming so much effort that you wish they would just to move the discussion on a bit.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
10:23 / 17.04.06
[Post deleted by Qalyn because Qalyn went in a personal direction that he regrets. Sorry for the inconvenience.]
 
 
Ex
10:46 / 17.04.06
A contract is a compromise and a compromise is two people not getting what they want.

Do you think it's possible to have any kind of ongoing relationship without some degree of negotiation and compromise?

It's really interesting to hear people's experience of monogamy, and their understanding of the historical impact of monogamy. But you seem to me to be universalising a bit freely. As in:

You think it is a sweet promise to hug forever

I think it's a bit of the Anglican marriage service, which only impacts on my relationship as something to define myself against.

I've personally done a lot of thinking about how culture and history impact on my desires and relationship forms. I have equal concerns about (as mentioned) institutionalised hetersexuality and parenthood, which have also been largely about control and property rights. And I've read a bucketload of stuff about nonmonogamy, and talked to nonmonogamous people, and been nonmonogamous, and got a load of useful concepts from all that (as well as from feminist and political writing) - taking responsibility for your own feelings, not trying to own or control your partner, or be the be-all and end-all for your them, and knowing that your partner's love for someone else isn't a threat or an insult. But I'm currently doing monogamy. I don't think that means I have to sign up for emotional blackmail and badinage.

(What's wrong with badinage? We built this country on badinage...)
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
10:54 / 17.04.06
Good luck with that.
 
 
Ex
10:58 / 17.04.06
Thanks! It's going well so far. I'm guessing from circumstantial evidence that you're in relationships with the opposite sex - good luck with that. Institutional heterosexuality is a scary fucker.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
10:59 / 17.04.06
Your names are fucking me up man.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:02 / 17.04.06
It's amazing that you're unique, Qalyn. Only, I think I met you about 300 times when I was at college, and maybe a hundred more since I discovered LiveJournal. Have you considered joining theresmeandthenthereseveryoneelse.com, the dating site for the uniquely iconoclastic and enlightened? I believe it now has more profiles uploaded than match.com.
 
 
Quantum
11:33 / 17.04.06
Did nobody else think for a moment this thread was about Monopoly? There must be a puntastic usename in there somewhere.
Sorry, carry on, nothing to see.
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
12:24 / 17.04.06
[unncessarily provocative post deleted]
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:45 / 17.04.06
I think "bitch" as a term of self-identity used by a woman is probably reclamative. On the other hand, I'm not sure turning this thread into an episode of the Ex Files is going to be particularly productive in terms of answering your question.
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
12:52 / 17.04.06
yeah, i was doing that mostly for pithy show. it's been ages and any feelings i have for Q are metafeelings. so carry on.
 
 
Sniv
13:07 / 17.04.06
Although, it does make for good reading.
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
13:12 / 17.04.06
well, someone mentioned in the "Woman-Friendly Barbelith" thread that there aren't women talking about their relationships here, which mystifies me so I figured I'd ask for advice.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:53 / 17.04.06
So, to get back ontopic, how's that going for you? Is this proving useful?
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
16:28 / 17.04.06
somewhat useful... the whole mono / poly issue is just one factor out of many. it seems clear though that i should ask for what i want when the time comes.

i'm not really in any hurry to commit, so the discussion probably isn't going to come up particularly soon. i just want to get a better understanding of the processes that i'm going to undergo if i do end up wanting to say something. also, i hate the feeling that i might be misleading people as time goes by.
 
 
ibis the being
18:49 / 17.04.06
The annoying problem is that at the moment, I think I may like the poly one best. I'm used to negotiating in the other direction (less sexual exclusivity) that I don't know about tellling someone, "You can't have other girlfriends!" It makes me feel so bourgeois.

Well, drinking Manhattans makes me feel wicked bourgeois, but I enjoy them so sometimes I do drink a few and who cares what the bartender thinks of me? Being flippant, but what I'm getting at is, does setting parameters just make you feel kind of square or like you'll look square to others? Or does it make you feel like you're going against your principles, or giving into an urge you don't believe is right? I would hope it's the latter, of course.... As Ganesh and Haus indicated, setting parameters or outlining your expectations is a reasonable enough way to decide whether or not to embark on a committed relationship with someone(s).

Polyamory is not something I've ever considered for myself... the very thought of it makes me want to lock myself in my bedroom and hide. I'm an extremely introverted person and very tentative about getting close to people even as friends. I'm not a misanthrope - I like people just fine - but for me even simple social interaction takes effort and is a little draining. The idea of stretching myself between more than one romantic and/or sexual relationship is intensely overwhelming - I could never do it, wouldn't want to.

My partner is more social than I am, but I know he's as naturally monogamous as I am (I know because of course we've talked about it, if that needs saying). Being who he is he puts it in much jokier terms, but the gist of his view is that he's put (and continues to put) a lot of emotional work into our relationship and frankly he just wouldn't be up to carrying on anything outside it with someone else.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
21:10 / 17.04.06
It's amazing that you're unique, Qalyn.

No one understands my sense of humor.
 
 
petunia
21:34 / 17.04.06
That's because you're unique.

D'uh
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
22:01 / 17.04.06
I have no idea what I meant by "badinage". Weird.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:15 / 17.04.06
"Bondage", possibly?
 
  

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