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Are we doomed?

 
  

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Gypsy Lantern
12:59 / 13.04.06
Here's a question: Do you reckon that western civilisation is going to collapse when we eventually run out of oil, heralding the new dark ages? Do you think this is likely to happen in our lifetimes or the lifetimes of our children, and if so, is the role of the Magician in the 21st century about finding a way off the downward spiral or preparing the species for surviving a return to medievalism? Or both? And what are you doing about it in the short, medium and long term?
 
 
power vacuums & pure moments
13:46 / 13.04.06
This guy has estimated that the 'crunch' point of oil demand exceeding supply would be in the year 2012, which is spooky in a low level sort of way.

Im all for the collapse of society as it exists now, although its not so much the technology and civilisation aspect thats rotten but the values and political system that go hand in hand with consumer capitalism. I cant reconcile the way that most people live with my spirituality, far too much of what we do is pointless. Infact the whole setup of work and consumption seems at odds with pretty much any metaphysical perspective. I try to refuse that way of living as best as i can [squat, busk and do 'real' work only when i must] and use magick to help me live this way.

I have no idea how magick could be used to change the course of humanity as a whole. Id speculate that the popularisation and greater understanding of meditation and other techniques of raising conciousness in a permanent, course of lifetime type way could be very positive.
 
 
Quantum
13:56 / 13.04.06
Do you reckon that western civilisation is going to collapse when we run out of oil, heralding the new dark ages?
Nope. It won't collapse, just struggle on like a zombie.

Do you think this is likely to happen in our life times?
The oil will get amazingly scarce and expensive pretty soon, yes.

is the role of the Magician in the 21st century about finding a way off the downward spiral
YES!!! YES IT IS!! THE ECOLOGY IS FUCKED AND DROUGHTS AND FLOODS AND MEGASTORMS ARE ON THEIR WAY AND PEOPLE ARE BUYING FUCKING 4X4 SUVS AND EMBRACING A CONSUMER SOCIETY THAT WILL KILL US ALL!

And what are you doing about it in the short, medium and long term?
Short- recycling, re-using, not driving, consuming less water, energy and packaging (NO I DON'T WANT A BAG!)
Medium- telling everyone to be more ecologically aware and advising them on practical measures (PUT A BRICK IN YOUR CISTERN!)
Long- encouraging a sense of community and empathy not just locally but globally in order to make effective action possible. Politically moving toward empowerment, electoral reform, wholeheartedly joining Europe and the UN. Let's make unfucking the world a higher priority than war.
 
 
Quantum
14:08 / 13.04.06
Wait, I forgot I was in the Temple. Magically, I think improving the connection between people and generally undoing the harm that's been done is the way forward, and spreading information and skills to empower people.
Toward that, I've been teaching Tarot, telling people about magic, helping the magic shop reach more people and giving advice to people who come in, reading Tarot for clients who go away happy, and continually learning more to improve both my life and those around me (physically and virtually). But it never feels like it's enough.
 
 
xytar with a Z
14:29 / 13.04.06
We're as doomed as we want to be.
I think we are at a evolutionary crossroads, the same one every planetary system like ours faces. We seem now to be taking the path of least resistance due to the value we place on economics of personal wealth. Humans have always had this propensity for hoarding, and I think that evolutionary trait is keeping us from focusing our means on tenable goals. Like getting of the planet, or reducing population to maintain balance. I think religion is another big problem Im' reading Sam Harris' 'The End of Faith' and it points this out to me -how much more energy and focus we would have if humans (60% of us) weren't STILL killing each other over ancient philosophies, superstition, and ignorance that absolutely demand adherents to destroy other cultures. All three major religions do this.

We could turn around. It is time to create a new myth, one that values our bodies, our planet, our miraculous connection to the universe. That's what Temple is doing. now. in this thread. Creating a new Myth. That's why I subtly talk to people I don't know very well about the miraculous. It's why i study the Tao. It's why I drive a used car. It's why I look for beauty.

'We are nature incarnate, We are tools of her probings and if, indeed, we suffer and we fail, from our lessons she will learn which way in the future not to turn.'
Howard Bloom
 
 
gale
19:10 / 13.04.06
I think that when the oil runs out, the oil companies (who have probably already finished working on this) will trot out their alternative and make tons of money. Or maybe there's a genius (or 50) in a basement laboratory who has come up with the perfect alternative and will make tons of money.

This of course assumes that the world isn't accidentally destroyed by crazy stupid people with too much power.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:27 / 13.04.06
Do you reckon that western civilisation is going to collapse when we eventually run out of oil, heralding the new dark ages?

This is something I think about a lot. Around 1995 I remember saying Yeah, everything's pretty much fucked, giving us a maximum of ten years or so before it all went kablooie... and yet here we are. I'm with Quants, I don't really see a big end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it disaster, more a brain-guzzling zombie that goes on lurching from crisis to crisis indefinately.

Do you think this is likely to happen in our lifetimes or the lifetimes of our children

Something big and ugly is coming within our lifetimes, yeah. Exactly what form it will take is hard to see, but generalised trashing of civil liberties and depravation on a massive scale look likely. I find myself more concerned with those parts of the world that are already barely keeping their heads above water at the moment than relatively affluent and educated people like me.

and if so, is the role of the Magician in the 21st century about finding a way off the downward spiral or preparing the species for surviving a return to medievalism? Or both?

Both.

And what are you doing about it in the short, medium and long term?

No point trying to separate out the magical from the non-magical so I'm not going to bother.

In the short term I'm trying, within certain limitations, to put my own house in order. Recycle what you can.* Make do and mend rather than buying new goods. Walking rather than taking the bus/Metro. Things like that, little things that add up. On a magical front, I try to support causes that I admire; I also try to support people involved with those causes. Grassroots stuff.

As for the long game: I'm actively building relationships with spirits and entities who are concerned, directly or indirectly, with the living earth, whilst still seeking to maintain my ties to humanity and not lose sight of human suffering. (Sometimes this is going to be a bit of a tricky balance to strike, obviously).

I'm studying healing skills, getting all my ducks in a row there. Reiki, herbs, foods, excercises, bread poltices, runes, charms, hopping on one leg round the village duckpond anticlockwise to cure gout--I want to get it all down in case the pills aren't available one day. (That reminds me, I'm overdue for a first-aid course.)

I'm learning about alternative technologies, how to do without things, from the most basic (like water purification) and on up. The way I see it, I don't really know what I'll need to know so I'm going to learn a little bit of everything.

Most of all I'm working on fixing myself up so that I'll be of maximal use whatever comes down the pipe. I'm trying to deal with the stuff that makes me a less effective person. If it's not making me happier, stronger, more empathic, then it's just dead weight and it's going. Fitter, more powerful, more loving.

*I recycled some battries the other day. Really! Batteries! In a special little battery recycling bin! So cool.
 
 
Mistoffelees
22:52 / 13.04.06
The oil won´t run out anytime soon. There are massive reserves. Canada is second place after Saudi-Arabia with ca 180 billion barrels oil reserves. They hadn´t done much about it yet, because it´s very expensive to refine and get it on the market, but due to the rising price, there are now nearly $100 billion worth of projects under construction or planned in the Canadian oil sands.

I often have the impression, many people have a longing for the end of the world. I don´t see, that it will come anytime soon. There´ll always be wars, epidemic plagues and other catastrophes, but how would it lead to the downfall of civilization? The bubonic plague killed of half of Europe, still civilization survived.

2013 will be a year just like every other year, that´s my prediction.

And if you want to read something positive about the oil problem, look at Sweden. They have succeeded in seriously decreasing their need for oil in the last decades and plan to be oil free in 2020! And it looks, as if they will actually do it, too.
 
 
illmatic
07:40 / 14.04.06
Do you reckon that western civilisation is going to collapse when we eventually run out of oil, heralding the new dark ages?

First off, let’s not leave climate change out of this. Secondly, not exactly, because that's a bit of an apocalyptic fantasy (that I indulge it from time to time myself). I find the attraction of this fantasy is that I can punish all those bits of WestCiv that I don’t like, and imagine a redeemed world (or an unredeemed world - Mad Max 2 was a great film). Eschatology will always have it’s attractions but I feel the truth is, these trends are a lot harder to see when you're living through them...

I think it’s entirely possible that we’ll see a slow decline in our standards of living and negative knock of effects on our choices, our institutions etc. It's arguable that this is happening already – US led resource war has had a negative knock on effect on our democracy, for instance, and lest we forget, people more on the frontline than ourselves - the global poor - are already experiencing tremendous hardship because of these changes as well as the difficulties of gloabalisation, and the kind of shit that the poor always have to put up with.

Alongside there will be a series of trends towards sustainability and using tech to think ourselves out of the problem. These trends are also, again, already here – Worldchanging.com is doing a great job of pulling this sort of thinking together.

I’ve just finished Bruce Sterling’s new book Shaping Things and he argues very strongly for a new societal vision using technology to tackle our problems, rather than some sort of return to low-tech pastorlism ("The only sane way out of a technosociety is through it, into a newer one, that knows everything the old one knew, and knows enough to dazzle and dominate the denziens of the older order"). Recommended reading.

is the role of the Magician in the 21st century about finding a way off the downward spiral or preparing the species for surviving a return to medievalism? Or both?

I dunno, mate. Depends on the practitioner really – at it’s best magick can give us new ways to think about our lives and the world, at it's worse it can be a load of delusive wankery. I’m sure both trends will continue! … and we’ll see forms of spirituality and practice evolve which address the problems delinated above. Again - surprise, surpise - these are already here.

Two examples -

Paganism - A big component of paganism is refiguring our orientation to the natural world. (One can argue some branches of paganism promote an idealized vision of the natural world and an idyllic past that never happened, but that’s a side issue really). What consequences might this have? What consequences is it having? Will it ever become anything more significant?

Second example is related to one really - I’ve just ordered a book by a Buddhist practitioner called Joanna Macey who’s letting her spirituality inform her ecological work (see this post by am464 and the one further down the same thread for an idea of what she’s talking about). Same questions apply - what consequences might this have? Is it having?

So, to me, all these trends are right here, right now ...

what are you doing about it in the short, medium and long term?

Now that is the big question. Trying to make sense of all this information, and find a space in my life where I can put it to best use is the short answer.

What about you?
 
 
Quantum
09:41 / 14.04.06
Most of all I'm working on fixing myself up so that I'll be of maximal use whatever comes down the pipe

Thank you Mordant, I want you on my team when we're the people in Mad Max 2 pumping oil in bandanas and eighties discowear. Bring a bow and axe.
I'm doing that too, and am reminded of the MTV snip and Jurassic Five lyric 'Either you are part of the solution or you are part of the problem, what's your contribution to life?'
 
 
--
11:12 / 14.04.06
Oddly enough, considering my negativity for almost everything else, I have faith in the future of the human race and I can't quite say why I do. Humans have a knack for figuring things out when the going gets tough. And if we fail, something else will just take our place, so it's not really the end of the world (well, unless we blow the planet up by accident or something, but that doesn't seem likely).

My dad is often disgusted by the state of the world and says he sometimes almost wishes there would be some kind of nuclear disaster or something that takes us back to square one. He's partly joking, but I don't agree with that... you can never de-evolve backwards if you want to proceed forwards. Speaking as a former occultist, I never really put much stock in the whole 2012 thing... seemed too much like the Christian's concept of the apocalypse, though that was probably my favorite part of the Bible (most entertaining to read, at any rate).

It's funny, you look at the younger generation and think everything is going downhill... Then one of them actually holds the door open for you and it gives you a bit of hope for the next generation.
 
 
illmatic
12:39 / 14.04.06
he sometimes almost wishes there would be some kind of nuclear disaster or something that takes us back to square one

This is what I was talking about above. But whatever "the answer" is I don't think it'll be that simple.

you can never de-evolve backwards if you want to proceed forwards

This is kind of similar to what Sterling is saying. Not to sure myself, as one can certainly see periods of severe regression throughout history.
 
 
electric monk
14:52 / 14.04.06
Do you reckon that western civilisation is going to collapse when we eventually run out of oil, heralding the new dark ages?

Like some other folks here, my feeling is that something big is coming down the pike. It seems likely to be an oil crisis, but it could just as easily be WW3 given the latest round of sabre-rattling on all sides. I think a new Dark Ages is quite possible. My guess is that we'll (the US, I mean) revert to a feudal system. Wealthy landowners, destitute serfs, and skirmishes for the few resources remaining.

Do you think this is likely to happen in our lifetimes or the lifetimes of our children, and if so, is the role of the Magician in the 21st century about finding a way off the downward spiral or preparing the species for surviving a return to medievalism? Or both?

I definitely do, and I feel that the role of the magician (or at least my role as a "magician") will be to act as an aide and comfort to those around me. Possibly even teaching the little that I know to others. I'm not sure there is a way off the path humanity is walking right now (tho I feel like a defeatist saying it). I feel this is most likely a necessary step, something we all have to go through together as a species. I don't know if it's a lesson that we can learn from and advance because of, or if it's just one of those things that needs to happen because this is where we are in the current cycle.

And what are you doing about it in the short, medium and long term?

Gah, not as much as I should. Short-term: I've been trying to learn from the minor chaos and catastrophes that life hands me. Learning to keep my head when everyone around me isn't. Medium-term: Getting my practice going again and finding out what else I need to know. A first-aid class sounds like a pretty damn good idea as well. Long-term: This is tough to say but...preparing my son. Teaching him all that I know, giving him a fascination with, and appreciation of, his fellow man. Letting him laugh and enjoy happiness as much as possible. Teaching him to help where he can. Heh, I sound like the Bizarro Sarah Conner.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
15:29 / 14.04.06
Teaching him to smash those metal motherfuckers into junk!!
 
 
gravitybitch
05:14 / 15.04.06
Oh, gods, yes.

WE'RE ALL DOOMED!!! WE'RE ALL GONna die. Oh, wait. That's part of the natural order of things, isn't it?

And, culturally, yeah - we're kinda fucked. Consumer Culture really needs to die sooner than later, and it's not going to be pretty. (There was a "How privileged are you?" meme making the rounds of one of my other online communities, and I just finished reading a scathing review of Mommy Wars here

so my mood is a little more sharp&bitchy than usual.)

But. Look at life fifty years ago - pre-Pill, pre-Woodstock, pre-Stonewall and the good Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King... Western culture has made remarkable strides past overt segregation and some blatant forms of discrimination based on gender and partner choice in a few decades.

I'll grant you that we don't have another 50 years to fix the current crop of cultural problems, and a lot of Consumer Culture has to do with what people think they're "entitled" to have (due to status and privilege) and that's a hard thing to reprogram.

And, yes, we may well have run out of cheap oil already (I'm not counting the costs just in dollars), and the climate IS changing and may be "damaged" irreparably. Any number of local ecosystems are just broken and we can never know just how many species have already been wiped out, will be extinguished in the coming decades.... (I don't believe we've murdered Gaia, though; don't think we're headed for another Dark Ages [though I'm putting the odds of that starting sometime within the next century at better than one in five after considering the end of cheap oil and climate change/crop failure and the probability of several decades of large-scale wars over various natural resources].)

So, yeah, there are going to be troubles. A significant part of it is going to be economic, but a lot of us are going to have personal experience of the next Katrina, the next terrorist attack, the next pandemic; may participate in the next round of bread or water riots if the global economy tanks badly enough...

The role of the Magician? In the worst-case scenario, to keep the books from being burned.... The magician is usually a conduit - between that which is Sacred and the mundane, between the here&now and a desired outcome. Personally, I think a return to medievalism is NOT desirable, would much prefer my role to be to help get the culture off the downward slide. I'm still chewing on how to do that...

(and this got rather longer than I thought it would be.)
 
 
gravitybitch
05:17 / 15.04.06
whoops...

The review of Mommy Wars is here.
 
 
--
14:56 / 15.04.06
Yeah, I hate when older people say that we're all going to hell in a handbasket, that things were better in the past. But I look at the past and realize "Hey, it kind of sucked". Racism, homophobia, women didn't have as much power, the holocaust, atom bombs exploding in Japan, and so on... The music was kinda lame too.

I'm not really sure what role the magician will have in the future, but I think the scientist will be the crucial occupation.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:20 / 15.04.06
I can definitely see the human race struggling on- but if anything is doomed it is our concept of Western civilisation (I don't limit this strictly to Western, mind you, but I don't really know a great deal about the others so would end up talking out of my ass if I just left it at "civilisation").

I don't think we're headed for extinction (no, that dubious honour is reserved for a great many species about which we collectively don't give enough of a fuck)- I do, however, see a kind of "decline of the Roman Empire" thing happening.

Mordant is, as always, wise- the magician's role is, on the surface, the same as everyone else's- to try and help those around them using whatever knowledge and skills they have.
 
 
captain piss
16:21 / 15.04.06
Yeah, learning skills that promote self-sufficiency is an obvious way to feel less helpless and anxious about the prospect of some future cataclysm – I can safely say it’s been a major motivation to me in spending lots of time in recent years learning stuff along the lines of healing, magic, martial arts and the like (although people look at you like you’re crazy when you tell them that – heh)

But then again - yeah, I do have to slap myself a little bit when I notice myself indulging in romantic fantasies about how it’ll be cool when civilisation has gone to shit – eking an existence in the rubble will be more fun than pension plans and 9-to-5 work etc. If oil does run out at a time when there’s no obvious replacement in hand then things will get fucking nasty for people in the west -I guess the recent Spielberg War of the Worlds film was a subconscious nod to that type of scenario…

Will it happen? Fuck knows… It certainly feels like something is coming. I guess some people would argue that there’s long been a tendency for humanity to view itself as living at the fag end of civilisation, or in a time when “the end is ‘nigh” – someone recently said to me that Dickens was quite big on that, for example. I sometimes don’t know what to think about this stuff…
 
 
--
16:39 / 15.04.06
Some old hippie I knew once told me that every generation thinks it'll be their generation that will experience some big worldwide change, or some sort of "end times".
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
18:41 / 15.04.06
as individuals, we're each and every one of us doomed to die.

which is no big deal, really, because we're also doomed to be born and have another go at it. let's try not to leave ourselves too big a mess to come back to.

as a culture/society, we are living through its doom. Something as big as a society of millions is going to take some time to meet its demise. Its the choice of the individuals within it to feed on the corpse or seek sustenance elsewhere.

If you need signs of our demise, you have but to look at any single example of popular culture, and see that it is rife with indifference, disengagement and competitive self-interest.

where's the life in that?

--norquist jurgen
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
19:42 / 15.04.06
Sypha's last post, and the first line of not jack's...

I remember as a kid going to see Billy Graham (yeah, the wise shit that stick with you really DOES come from the most unexpected places)- he said something along the line of "people keep asking me when will the world end. I tell them- when you die. That's when your world will end".

Mind you, he ruined it by going into Biblical prophecy End Times stuff. But on its own, it was a cool piece of advice.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
20:44 / 15.04.06
Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, Falluja, Pompeii and a host of other cities and cultures have had their doomsdays...

yet they persist. so, what's in a doomsday?

--northern jackalope
 
 
Hawthorn
19:53 / 16.04.06
I also get the feeling that something big is coming, and I think it will be greater than Pompeii or any once-off war/distaser/famine and be more on the scale of the plague. This is because we (human beings) have explored/colonised most of what there is in the world and are facing populations and ecologic consequences we have not been able to conceive of before.

I think climate change and its consequences will be the most noticable change, I think: water shortages, bad harvests, coupled with expensive fuel. Even if we ourselves don't go hungry right away the world will become even less stable because of hunger. Erratic weather, disease. I agree that the changes will be slow in noticing.

Canada's oil reserves will probably be ransacked, along with wood, arable land and esp water. Probably by the States. I think it is quite likely resource war will spread to here. When resources get scarce enough I believe most of the world will reorgnise along Fascist state lines.

I also agree that Consumer Culture is the biggest obstacle to avoiding "the end of the world". The anwers won't be profitable. An example is the Kyoto, which is less than a baby step of a solution, yet is being whined about by every conservative government that,bafflingly, continues to get elected in the First World.

I think there's a 50% chance humanity won't destroy the world beyond the reach of all life, or cetainly all intelligent life. I know that sounds dire, but other planets, eg. Venus have had liquid water and the possibility of life before too much CO2 in the atmosphere triggered a global warming feedback loop that was impossible to stop. Think about it: burning trees/vegetation releasing CO2 and ceasing to absorb it back into coal/soil. We might have another carboniferous age with warmth/humidity nourished jungles. Dinosaurs, anyone?

I digress
What am I doing? Magically, trying to heal myself enough to be able to stand up for what I believe in and argue for social change. I try to be in touch with the Earth and Nature enough to stay sane and try to get on a wavelength with it, learn to live in harmony with it as much as possible. Seek guidance as to the next step.

On a short term and more mundane level I compost and reduce my garbage: cloth grocery bags, handkerchiefs, cloth pads and the keeper. Second hand clothing. home gardening. Veganism (cuz it takes less land/water/pollution to grow a pound of grain than beef, don'tchaknow).
Eat organic when I can. I am not going to contribute children to this situation either.

My roommate and I are learning basic survival skills, firemaking, leanto's etc. I am going to take jiu Jitzu this fall. I have the nagging feeling I should learn how to use a firearm.

I feel as though I am not doing enough and I should volunteer with ecologic associations. there is a druidical group in my city planning to do some serious concerted activism and I should join them.
 
 
PlanetNiles
10:45 / 17.04.06
Define "Doomed". I think our current society is going to fall apart in my lifetime. I also feel, like so many others, that's going to be big and painful. But I remember my father telling me how, in the 60's, he felt that was something big was coming and he still feels like that way. I just think its part of any 'sensetive' persons make up. I recall a comic book from the 90's in which a youthful "geomancer" revealed that frequently the Earth had panic attacks that rarely amount to anything. Change is the nature of the beast; our grand parents were born in houses lit with candles and will probably die in hospitals lit by "daylight" halogen lights.

So yeah doom and gloom; end of western civilisation as we know it. There will be fighting, there will be death and there will be mass misery and deprivation. Then things will get better; humanity will persevere and civilisation will continue. Hopefully in a more enlightened form.

What's needed is some kind of cultural singularity, which is what we're going to get irrespective of our desires. I plan to find some way of guiding it. To this end I have a mid to long term goal to create an online microcosm partly as a test bed, partly as a trigger and partly as a scapegoat. If the project gets off the ground I will be coming to you kind folks for a little bit of help and guidance and a fair amount of sigilised of art work; I'll say more at the time.

In the short term I'm doing what I can.

As an after thought I'd like to note that we tend to underestimate the intelligence of our fellow human beings. Yes we tend to be selfish, ignorant SOBs but when the chips are down and its do or die we tend to pull through.
 
 
Quantum
10:52 / 17.04.06
My guess is that we'll (the US, I mean) revert to a feudal system. Wealthy landowners, destitute serfs, and skirmishes for the few resources remaining. Monk

How will we notice the difference from the way things are now? Doesn't the US have a feudal power structure already? Wealthy landowners, destitute serfs...
 
 
electric monk
12:16 / 17.04.06
I was thinking along the lines of an intensification of the current situation. I agree that these things are already present in the US, and think they are the first steps to a more overt tribal/feudal thang. The slow slide...
 
 
Unconditional Love
10:25 / 18.04.06
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.

H.P Lovecraft - The call of cthulhu.

I think it would be very tempting for me as a person to flee from the light of the knowledge that this current age of information is presenting to me, harking back and longing for a more rural or medieval/instinctual society. I think the latter is a retreat by virtue of fear of the options we are presented with and the capabilities that we now possess as a species. The emerging biotechnology industry raises alot of issues for me related to what it means to be human, and wether human will be a nessecarily fit term to apply to future generations.

The earth has been through many global changes in the past, mostly caused by external events, i dont actually think humans are capable of totally destroying the earth, i dont think humans are that powerful or important within the overall scheme of things either. I tend to consider that much of what we cling to is a flimsy self imposed order over an absolute and uncontrollable chaos.

What do i do to avoid my impending doom? Not alot really, i accepted it 6 years ago when i had a brief taster. Ecologically (which i am growing ever more cynical of) i recycle, dont litter, ride a bike as opposed to driving a car, dont smoke, try to consume as little gas as possible, thou probably use alot of electric. I dont actually think any of this helps really, i think alot of what happens in largely out of my control, and given the option of those larger factors being in my direct control, i dont think i would accept such a responsibility, because i dont think i could make unbiased opinions. I do think as a collective of individuals we can make some difference, we can control the immediate effect of our own actions, but perhaps not the collective outcome of those actions, their are always unforseen varibles that enter into such controlled attempts to govern larger masses than the self. My self is often in a state of rebellion of its own accord without any consent from me, so i have less confidence in collectives of selves that are perhaps rebelling against themselves and also with other factors that they percieve themselves to be in opposition to.

Perhaps history is doomed to repeat itself over and over, until i and we learn from our actions, until then perhaps the tentacles of history will wrap themselves around everything, constricting and sucking upon the marrow of the soul, forever deepening the sense of doom that we are trapped by the accumulated habits of the centurys.
 
 
--
14:12 / 18.04.06
Actually, I have a lot of hope for upcoming technological breakthroughs. Transhumanism in particular fascinates me, the idea of going beyond humanity... Looking foward to the day when we can all mutate and shapeshift at will, and I hope it comes about in our lifetime. I'd bring it about myself if I could, but alas, I'm no scientist.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
15:37 / 18.04.06
science is lousy at providing solutions for the problems created by science...

the *doom* we are about to experience (others already do/have) is the reaction of our environment (the biosphere) to our unbalanced global population (6 billion + and counting with no cull in sight).

too many of us for this small globe. Maybe it's time to swallow our hubris and consider the chinese approach to birthing (without the infanticide).

--nodding jocularly
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:04 / 19.04.06
That's all really interesting. Thanks for responding. I started this thread because I've become increasingly aware of a tendency in my own magical practice to acquiesce to this current of impending medievalism. It's as if my general operating framework for magical practice has become infected by this very unexamined and very seductive mythology that western civilisation is about to go tits up. All of my practice feels like preparation and training for the time when these skills become essential. It's a theme that seems to be echoed in a lot of the responses above. I'm trying to get really good at a lot of areas of magic that would be useful in an impending "collapse of society" scenario. Others seem to be doing the same thing.

It's chilling how many other people contributing to this thread seem to have similar half-developed internal mythologies going on. It's obviously got a lot to do with fears over the state of the world and where we may be heading, and it's quite readily understandable why this theme seems to have entered into the collective subconscious of a lot of people. I can think of a few examples where this fetishisation of a devolving society is reflected back at us. The most obvious instances of this are the post-alien terror social breakdown of the Spielberg 'War of the Worlds' remake, which focuses predominantly on the social dystopia caused by alien invasion rather than the actual invasion itself. Along with the vision and solution presented in the 'V for Vendetta' film, where it's bad news in every direction. So what's going on there?

The miniature David Icke that lives in everybody's head (now there's a conspiracy theory...) would probably posit that the evil lizard multimedia conglomerates that rule the world are feeding us these images and hypnotising us into a state of consciousness where we are prepared to accept radically reduced living circumstances and the total erosion of our civil liberties as an inevitability. A more level headed view might say that these media images of 'the new medievalism' are just reflecting back our early 21st century civilisation's fears of losing everything that our ancestors have struggled for. Perhaps with a heavy dose of western guilt seeking masochistic redemption for the vast gulf between our relatively pampered lifestyles and third world poverty by secretly wishing for some crisis where we are reduced to our most rudimentary survival instincts.

Whatever way you look at it, it's all a big, sour tasting, fucked-up soup of images and associations that I don't like my magic floating around in (like a weird occult crouton). I think it's worth looking more closely at this early 21st century mythology and the way we relate to it in our magical practice. Demons are bred in our unexamined responses, and sometimes I think it's a Magician's responsibility to put on an iron shirt.

I asked whether people think the role of the Magician is to get humanity off the downward spiral or prepare the species for dealing with some horrible Mad Max 2 style collapse of civilisation. I was thinking about this again this morning, in the light of responses to this thread, and I was a bit disturbed to find how limited my imaginings were. I can imagine all too easily this world where I'm forced to operate as this wholly ridiculous witchdoctor/cunning man type character within a dangerous, blighted, horrific future London. I can see how we could get there as a society and I could see the sort of response I would have to bring to it, personally and magically. What I would have to find within myself in order to cope, and how that relates to my practice now. It's a terribly seductive fantasy that lingers in the background of my magical work, and informs it to an extent that is troubling to say the least. Not least because I haven't really looked at it straight on like this, and have just allowed it to fester unexamined in the waters of personal mythology that I think we all swim in to some degree, especially as magicians.

More troubling is that I can't really imagine an alternative, positive, optimistic future to take the place of this nightmare vision with anywhere near as much ease or clarity. I can't see the happy alternative where we sort all of this out and come out on top as enlightened beings in harmony with our universe. I'm not convinced by any of the images I come up with when I try. I can't believe in that juju. It doesn't seem real. Sounds like bullshit. Wishful thinking, hippy bullshit that is in denial about the very real state of world affairs. It's not going to happen. I'm not convinced. I can't build those images very well. I don't believe in it.

I showed this thread to Rosie X the other day, whose response was interesting. Her perspective was informed by recent personal insights into how what we believe, what we think, and what we say are acts of magic that create the reality we find ourselves in. If you talk about the impossibility of your plight all the time, you are feeding that vision of your present and writing your own future out of it. That's pretty much the process that we, as Magicians, are fully complicit in by actively identifying with, nurturing and cultivating this insidious imaginary scenario where civilisation collapses and we have to deal with it one way or another. Not a particularly constructive response, but one that I'm certainly guilty of, at least subconsciously.

So I'm interested in backing this truck up a few yards and looking at the processes underpinning these beliefs, and what we can do to interact with them, before writing off human civilisation altogether as a done deal and setting out our stalls as future witchdoctors of the vague apocalypse. Certainly, I want to be ready for the worst case scenario, and make sure I know how to get down and dirty with handfuls of dirt and meat and bone, to look after people I care about if circumstances call for it. But we're not living in Mad Max 2 just yet.

I probably spend a bit more time than is healthy in speculation about the role of "The Magician" as a kind of contemporary job description within 21st century culture. I think there are several strands to this job. One of them, is that of community witchdoctor who has the mad skills to take care of business for people when the chips are down. But I think another aspect of the job is to create new realities for the species to step into. To imagine the sort of things that are difficult to imagine. Think about how the modern world has been created by "Magicians" in the past who have dreamed up something totally impossible and inconceivable from the frame of reference of their culture, but which has since come to pass. A Magician ought to deal in impossible worlds. Perhaps the work of a Magician is to shape the world through images and ideas, to cast a spell on the culture you are confronted with, to put over a glamour so seductive that the universe is smitten and falls into line with your word, not that of another.

Mr Crowley writes, in the 'Class A' document 'Liber B vel Magi': "Let Him beware of abstinence from action. For the curse of His grade is that he must speak Truth, that the Falsehood thereof may enslave the souls of men." Cryptic, double edged, and open to interpretation, but it seems to deal with this ultimate task/curse of the Magus which is to have tangible impact on the world by uttering a single word of truth that gets the whole world caught up in your falsehood, or stories, or glamour, or the vision of a new world that you have cooked up in your witch's cauldron.

All of which suggests a spectacular failure on my part, really, if I can't even begin to imagine any sort of realistic or convincing better world than the ugly, feudal, regressive medievalism that is being served up to me. But I think that opening my eyes to this modern myth building - as an ongoing process that I am involved in and actively contributing to - is a good start for fathoming the ramifications. It seems that there needs to be more concerted effort on the part of Magicians (and I use that word in a slippery way that encompasses artists, writers, musicians, scientists, teachers, politicians, businessmen, and indeed all of those involved in dreaming up the future) to imagine positive alternative scenarios where we really do get our act together as a species and come out on top. Convincing scenarios. Not empty platitudes or escapist fantasy, but powerful juju that casts its own spell. A dream of the future just as convincing as the new medievalism, that enchants itself into being. I have no idea, at present, what that might be or what practical course of action these speculations might end up developing into. But it seems to me, that if any spell is worth casting at the moment, it's the one that creates some better options and weaves a few brighter, more optimistic stitches into the mythic tapestry that we've got on the table.
 
 
illmatic
12:10 / 19.04.06
A dream of the future just as convincing as the new medievalism, that enchants itself into being.

Dude, this is exactly what the Worldchanging.com people I've linked to above are trying to do, which is one of the reasons I find it so inspiring. Their project is occuring through the creative usage and investigation of technology, politics and networking, rather than spiritual memes and ideas. As such it's a lot more real world and grounded, and thus my money is on them to produce or at least point us in the direction of changes, rather than magicians. Nema and Starhawk are two who spring to mind though.

Or check out Bruce Sterling - I mean, how much more future orientated can you get - it's his bloody job to think up amazing futures all day. I got a real sense of excitement about what the future might hold from reading his latest book. And he's not just focusing on Sci-Fi anymore - his Viridian Design Movement is focused on literally designing an ecologically viable future into being.

I also am cultivating a visionary future based on the intersection on Reich's work, the Continuum Concept, free education and green politics. I don't know if these elements will ever come together and be expressed socially in the way that I feel they deserve, but I feel they'd be a vital component in any future I have a role in creating.
 
 
Quantum
12:40 / 19.04.06
That was a fine, fine post Gypsy Lantern (occult crouton, heh) allow me to run with it.
I'm a hippy. An optimistic utopian idealistic hippy at that, who thinks the future can be better and we can avoid cataclysm if we do something about it. I *do* believe a vision of the future with toilet paper and television, I find it easy to believe things can get better.
Loads of people have been saying the things we're saying for ages (check out this Human Manifesto) and trying to do something about it. They've been stymied by the current establishment's focus on money, and the short term timeframe most people think in (notably not the inventor of the clock of the long now of course).

I don't buy into the Darque Future scenario, and I don't really think spending time with Ray Mears is going to be the best use of our efforts. Society won't collapse and we won't be stalking a city full of ruined buildings hunting elk, it just isn't going to happen that way, so learning to skin animals and make lean-to shelters is really a hobby rather than preparation*.

I think trying to free people from the spell of helplessness that's been woven is the way forward. Reminding people they can make a difference, that Mad Max 2 is not inevitable, that an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure, that there is a future we should build together.
Remember the cold war? Everyone thought we'd go up in nuke smoke by 1980, but we didn't, it was a mechanism that used fear to enforce obedience (now we have Teh War on SARS and Bird-Flu Terror warnings ect ect). There have always been tyrranies and politicians, it's just in the modern world they have more power than ever before and the majority of people have less, the methods of propaganda are far more advanced and so people have less freedom AND less responsibility. Let's try and get people owning their own lives and taking the power back. Ever hear of the psychological locus of control?

Sorry about the slightly rambling post, I get excited. Concise version=No Doom, Teh Man wants you to believe in Doom, screw Teh Man and retain Hope, possibly our best weapon against fear.

*or practice in it's own right of course, or preparation to move into a straw bale house or something in order to promote sustainable living, or...
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:59 / 19.04.06
That world changing site is really inspirational. I'd like to read the book that they have just put out, and the Sterling one.

As such it's a lot more real world and grounded, and thus my money is on them to produce or at least point us in the direction of changes, rather than magicians.

Absolutely, but for a magician to take that perspective, isn't that a bit like evading responsibility? In a "leave it to the science boys/girls to sort out" type of way. Perhaps what I'm grasping towards is some way of understanding how my own particular specialist areas might intersect with the sort of work those people are doing. What can I bring to the table where we create the future, with my particular skills, aptitudes and creativity? One school of thought might have me abandoning the magic, art and writing altogether and training myself up in whatever disciplines might be required for contributing towards the invention of a cheap, sustainable source of energy, or something like that. Which would be all well and good if I was a fresh faced 18 year old, but I'm not, and it seems wasteful not to run with the things I'm good at and try to do something interesting within the particular weird field of operation that I seem to have spent the last decade or so labouring in. So again, what role does magic have to play in the creation of a new world?

I think Quantum gets close to it above with: "I think trying to free people from the spell of helplessness that's been woven is the way forward." But how does that work? Where does it start? What other aspects of shaping the future fall under the remit of the magician? What part of the puzzle could benefit from being looked at from a magician's perspective? What is the work that needs doing? What aspects of that work might someone involved with magic excel at where others might conceivably falter?
 
 
illmatic
13:45 / 19.04.06
So again, what role does magic have to play in the creation of a new world?

Keeping it short, one role is to give voice to a communities aspirations and frustrations. Perhaps this is more the role of religion, than the magican as we tend to be much more into individual practice.

I've modded to have my link to Joanna Macy's stuff above fixed, but here's a link in the meantime. I feel she is very much in this line and has clear and practical responses for dealing with the problems that we currently face. Again, I'd call this more religion than magick, but who cares about definitions.

it just isn't going to happen that way

You're right. it's not. It'll be more like - first the polar bears will go, then the tigers, then our tapwater won't be drinkable and then there will be a thousand other little degradations in our standrard of living ... drip drip, rather than BANG

Just posted that to cut through some of my glossy optimism...
 
  

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