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Jesus Motherfucking Christ: Or how i learnt to stop worrying and Love my Mum

 
 
petunia
22:58 / 05.04.06
Lame i know, but i got my Dissertation due for my Philosophy BA under the title given above. I'm basically positing that what can be defined (in a rather basic and perhaps unhelpful manner) as Western European/Christian thought (i.e. "Western Philosophy - from Plato to NATO") is, in its very nature, Oedipal. Or at least we could define it as such for an ill-thought-out dissertation with a sensationalistic title :-)

Thoughts to play with involve the basic Oedipus myth - Battle and murder of father in order to Possess mother. I take this away (i hope) from basic freudian mythology by assuming that the overriding impulse/desire in Oedipus is to Possess and Sleep with the mother in order to Create Our Own Self.

See in this the Christ Myth - the 'true self-defined Man' comes from God. His 'earthly' father is not involved in the act of creation; His father is actually God, the self-created Truest of Beings. Jesus 'Is' God, who essentially gives birth to himself, through the Pure (read; Inert) Virgin and as such, is Oedipal.

See readings of Plato as a world-hating neurotic who gave us the Forms, which are the true ego/self/substance etc. With his division of the world into appearance and the True Forms, he again makes the mother/world an inert 'shadow' (i.e. derivative, possession) of the Forms - we must go through the shadow and come to know the Forms, for therein we can live eternally and as true selves.

See Descartes with his philosphy of the Ego Cogito with its nature as self-similar and seperate from a mechanical world (which he hopes we can become masters of...)

See Nietzsche with his refusal to play the game of 'substance/ego/true self'. His Death of God as either the Anti-Oedipus par excellence, Or the biggest Oedipus complex seen so far (or both?!) His valorisation of nature and the world... His ridicule of any talk of a 'true world' as opposed to "appearance".

Of course, we mustn't forget the Sphynx and her riddle... I have a bit of difficulty with this but see it as a reflexion of the 'solving of the mystery of life'. Throughout the most of 'our' mythologies/religions/dialogues, we see at the core the idea that life is a mystery to be solved. At least from Plato onward, we see our aim in life being defined as a certain 'coming to know' or 'attainment of The Truth'. Either the Sphynx represents this in that her riddle, when solved, will give us knowledge of human life and will also allow us access to the Mother and then Self-birth, Or she actually is a deep zenlike parable about how we pretend we can solve mysteries and come to own the world, but actually get older, then old, then die. I'm not sure.

So i'm trying to say that the constant ideals within western thought of self-similarity, true selfhood, and detachment from 'the world' in order to fully observe and possess it bear halmarks of the Oedipal myth, and perhaps that Nietzsche tried (sometimes successfully) to give us a route out of the constant Oedipality of our paradigm.

Are we constantly trying to create ourselves apart from the rest of society (the Father) and form the world in our image?

Or am i just taking all of this too far?

um.. I'm not sure if all this makes too much sense at the moment - i'm tired and a little bit scared as this is my first post on Barbelith :-)

But does anybody have any thoughts to offer on this topic? Can anyone recommend any good books that will help? I'm reading Deleuze and Guattari's Anti-Oedipus and some Foucault (as well as Lots and Lots of Nietzsche), but i'm sure there must be something else which will help...

Thanks
x
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
02:28 / 06.04.06
you may also want to peruse the Temple for thoughts.

I think that our culture (however you wish to frame it western/corporate/etc) is a stange antinomy of the Oedipal and the misogynistic.

the father
the sun
the ghost

the mother's absent, presumed dead. In an oedipal scenario, the father is killed.

well, at its heart, there are lots of 3s.

--not jack
 
 
kybalion
08:17 / 06.04.06
This is a philosophy paper, and you are casting the entire history of philosophy in terms of Freud? Heh.

Check out Luce Irigaray's Speculum of the Other Woman, she did the same thing.

But then if you are reading what you say you are reading, I really don't understand why you would want to overlay a metanarrative over the history of philosophy as it has been done to death. The Freudian metanarrative especially.
 
 
elene
09:42 / 06.04.06
I don't see why you want to get away from Freud, nor how you might, while still using the story of Oedipus in this way. This is surely what Freud meant too, even if he saw us already and essentially adopting this stance by the age of three or four, and had a problem with women.

This is a very powerful image of the individual's struggle to survive in the context of both physical and legal dependence. I don't think it's more than that though. It's really just a matter of drives, principles or one's nature forcing one to fight the current owner for the resources one needs, or not, made especially vivid through the fact that Oedipus does not realise he's fighting his real father when he fights on the road, or fulfilling his fate by marrying his own mother afterwards.

The tendency of a man to see in his father the law and to understand his mother as a vital and mysterious resource, and to further see this triangle echoed in every other problem he encounters in life seems to me natural enough if one has grown up in a bourgeois family, as does the occurrence of some who see further than this. I do think that the sexist nature of this view is incidental to the story of Oedipus. He just happens to be a man. Your interpretation of the trinity has far more to do with it being a sexist theology than it being about the Oedipus story.

The sphinx and her riddle undoubtedly represent the realisation that we were all young, will mature, age and die. "The mystery of life," if you will. The hero must see both the helpless child and the helpless old person in their own nature.
 
 
Cat Chant
11:07 / 06.04.06
Miriam Leonard's 2005 book Athens in Paris gives a very good account of Oedipus as a figure for the political man/the citizen in post-68 French thought, including an interesting reading of a lecture by Foucault on Oedipus as the originator of a form of power/knowledge which can be traced into the disciplinary society. (See also Judith Butler's Antigone's Choice, which points out that Oedipus' family is precisely not the generation-segregated, triangular structure of the European bourgeois nuclear family, and asks about potentially non-Oedipalized ways of doing kinship.)

The Speculum of the Other Woman, as kybalion has pointed out, is the key text for Plato's Oedipal negation of the mother. I'm guessing you're already reading it, along with Moses and Monotheism and Totem and Taboo. I don't know much about Nietzsche. On the Sphinx, there's a lovely moment of critique of anthropocentrism early in Horkheimer & Adorno's Dialectic of Enlightenment where they say something like 'Of course the answer to the Sphinx's riddle is man! The answer to all riddles is always man!'

Which brings me on to an echo of some of kybalion's reservations about this project (perhaps). If you're reading Deleuze & Guattari's Anti-Oedipus, you'll know of course that thirty or forty years ago they were arguing that Oedipalization was a control structure for producing territorialized subjects who could fit neatly into late capitalism - and that its time had passed. I agree that it's possible to read the whole of Western Christian/neoPlatonic thought as Oedipal - that's what Oedipus is for, a universalizing structure which gives 'man' (ie bourgeois/Enlightenment man) as the answer to every riddle, which cannot confront the terrifying alterity of the Sphinx and come away with anything other than the Same ('the answer is man!'). But I hope you're also going to write about some of the ways in which we can resist the Oedipalization of history, nature and humanity...
 
 
grant
11:55 / 06.04.06
How are you constituting "Mother" here?
 
 
sdv (non-human)
12:25 / 06.04.06
Eugen Finks book on Neitzsche will give you an interesting phenomenological turn on Neitzsche rather than the line you appear to be taking. You should read the critique of Foucault and Neitzsche relations to Islam...

Unfortunately for your argument D&G do not maintain the anti-oedipal and the anti-lacanian-psychoanalytical line, AO is less anti-frued than anti-lacanian, and consequently the works are implicitly against the linguistic turn. Deleuze is a philosopher of the virtual and immanence as such he is the continental philosopher who is irreligious, with the least references to 'god' as a philosophical concept. His work can be forced to address Oedipal aspects of Christian thought, but frankly it's an uneasy and unsustainable fit. It is incorrect to attempt to merely address european christian thought in this way because their argument is not restricted to western european thought or christianity. Neither Deleuze nor Guattari were specific intellectuals in the sense that Foucault claimed it is important to recognize the extent to which they were producing a universalist thought rather than something that was a pure critique of western christian thought or even indo-european culture(s).

laer...
 
 
petunia
12:55 / 06.04.06
Nice replies people. A lot of good things to think about...

This is a philosophy paper, and you are casting the entire history of philosophy in terms of Freud? Heh.
I really don't understand why you would want to overlay a metanarrative over the history of philosophy as it has been done to death.

Yeah, these are definite worries. I decided on the theme a year or so ago in a bright flash of 'oh'.. It's a general attempt to sum up the difference or break i find in philosophy between Nietzsche and 'the rest'. I had always seen something rather suspect in the reliance on the logos and the general attempts to make 'the mother'(world, appearance, whatever) conform to its standards. I ended up defining this nature (along with the seemingly ever present need for a lot of philosphers to create a fully self-sufficient philosophical account of the life, the universe and everything.)

Our philosophy course has been pretty light on postmodern thought, so i only really became aware of the whole metanarrative concept very recently. However, i agree that there is a certain weakness in telling this story over the top of 2,000+ year's thought. I think i chose the freudian metanarrative as it may have seemed a bit 'edgy' or something before i actually researched a bit. I also really like being able to use 'motherfucking' in my title. Forgive me, i am young...

As i've been reading and writing for the project, i've come to realise that a large proportion of my words seem to focus upon the general misogyny of a lot of philosophy. I find interesting the way that the world, earth, appearance was made inert and useless during plato's time, and how this 'mother principle' is seen as either a force to overcome and control (nature, chaos etc) or is simply a mechanistic nothingness.

In a philosphy that is tied up fully in concepts of the God, Self and Substance, which we can define somewhat as 'the male principle', the 'feminine principle' always becomes slandered. If we are to only consider as real that which comes from God, has fixed identity and is eternal, the changing, the undefined and the chaotic (that with we can actually see as Alive) is left on the wayside as Nothing.

I'm trying to avoid bringing Freud into this for a few reasons. One is obviously that it's a philosophy degree i am working for - I was hoping to use the Oedipus myth in more philosophical terms without reference to Freud. However, it is obvious that this will be both hard to do (if not impossible) and wont really have much point to it. Inevitably my reading is pretty much the same as Freud's, so i need to figure out whether i'm to take this further into Freud's territory or try to move away from Oedipus and make something else out of this.

But I hope you're also going to write about some of the ways in which we can resist the Oedipalization of history, nature and humanity...

Hell yes!
This is where Nietzsche comes in... In Nietzsche i see a breaking away from all of this. I hope to show that his philosophy not only tries to give us something new, but does so in a totally different ground from the previous discourses of philosophy.

With its reliance on the philosophy of presence, God and Self, previous philosophies left themselves stuck. If one is to find truth, and give account of the world, one is constrained to the masculine principles of the discourse. If one tries to move outside of these, or to see in a different way, one becomes 'irrational', 'mad', 'sinful' or just wrong.

Nietzsche used a lot of the 'rules of the game' to bring it down upon itself and turn it in a new direction. He derides the search for essence and truth - he gives us one of the first accounts of Truth as something other than an essential part of the universe. In his Genealogical approach (later taken up by Foucault), he gives us ways of recounting history without recourse to Essence, Origin or Teleology. In his Eternal return of the same, he gives us a metaphysical account of time that does not point itelf always to the Golden Future or Past - it forces itself onto the moment of Now and gives it back its eternal nature.

Throughout his philosophy, we see resistance against any kind of life that directs itelf away from itself - he derides those who live for God, for the Future or for Truth - all these are just pretty names and fantasies given by people who hate life and seek death. In his 'God is dead' he points that all ideals are, have been and always will be dead, lifeless and as such - Pointless...

I like Nietzsche :-)

I suppose what i'm really trying to do is to show why all of this is important to us. I wish to show the Misogyny, Oedipality and power strangulation inherent to the modes of thought that grow from Plato/Christianity and put them in direct contrast with N.'s Philosophy - as a potential philosophy of freedom/revolution.

I'm just a little wary of reading Nietzsche in an anti-misogynistic light - while his metaphysics broke away somewhat from the Godly, he still seemed to have a few problems with 'the Father'. But as he said "When fighting monsters one must take care not to himself become a monster." Perhaps it would be important to point out his failures as well as successes in this area.

Sorry for the length of the post.. Thinking on my feet..
 
 
petunia
13:25 / 06.04.06
How are you constituting "Mother" here?
I'm a bit ragtag about how i'm working with 'mother' at the moment. More brainstorm than list...

My approach has mainly been to use Mother as she is given through the western euro pardigm - a mix of religious, cultural and philosphical views. I'm aware of the risk of this, in that i could just end up repeating the same old view of woman/maternailty; and that i'm working somewhere on the line that divides 'woman as concept' and 'woman as reality'. Though as this is a philosophical piece, it will inevitably be on the concptual side of things (can we state a 'reality of woman'?)

Basic Keywords are: Nature, Nurture, Ground, Earth, Appearance (as opposite of Logos), Birth/Death, Body (as opposed to mind), Res extensa, irrationality.

It's rather hard to define her in the terms of philosophy, as it has traditionaly dealt with only the aspects of God (as a philosophical concept - Ego, substance..) and views of her from within this paradigm seem to leave her seen in rather negative light as darkness, chaos and irratioanlity.

Of course it's both hard and a little fruitless to really try to define things in terms of masculine/feminine, but i feel there's some effort that can be made here in order to draw out the aspects of our paradigm that lead (it seems) to certain gender views.

sdv: I'll check out that finks book, thanks. I'm only a part of my way through Anti-Oedipus, but i agree that it would be pretty untenable to pull it into the shapes i'm trying to show things as.. I was thinking of using them for a kind of 'what next/after Nietzsche' towards the end of the dissertation, but am starting to feel that they might be unsuitable even for that. I'm really enjoying the book though. It's a shame that i'm only coming into contact with such excellent texts towards the end of my degree....
 
 
matthew.
16:14 / 06.04.06
I've always taken a different approach to Freud. Or, should I say, I was taught a different approach. Full disclosure: I've never read Freud's actual words on Oedipus. So take what I say with a grain of salt. Or, apologies if this is already so obvious.

There's the mother and the son and the father has left the equation. Then the mother directs her eros at the son. The son feels comfortable in this transition and transference, because he becomes the centre of attention. He can never "complete" the "transaction" because of the incest taboo. So when he meets another woman (who is not his mother), he unconsciously classifies her in one of two categories: saintly (like his mother) or whorish (unlike his mother). With the saint-woman, he can never direct his eros at her because she is like his mother and because of the incest taboo. So in order to be sexually satisfied, he finds a woman that is degraded, in order to avoid feeling the incest taboo. If she is not adequately degraded, he must degrade her further, away from his mother-ideal.

It has less to do with "killing" the father and sleeping with the mother. With Freud, the way I understand it, the son has no other object of sexual desire, so he focusses on the first object he sees, which is the mother. He then fears the father because of this replacement possbility.
 
 
Cat Chant
10:34 / 07.04.06
There's the mother and the son and the father has left the equation. Then the mother directs her eros at the son.

I can't help giggling at this slightly, mattvara, since it seems to be such a wonderful summary not of the actual structuration of desire in the Oedipal triangle, but of the son/infant's phantasy/wish, that it looks like a Freudian slip on your part... This phantasy (that there is no father and the mother desires only the son) is unfulfillable not because of "the incest taboo" (which is a result, not a cause, of Oedipalization) but because of the fact that in reality the mother desires the father and not the son. The Oedipus complex, as I understand it, is the way that the son/infant comes to terms with the fact that his phantasized dyad - the plenitude of mother/son interaction with no-one else in the equation - doesn't exist, and that he is not the primary object of his mother's desire.

(Lots of interesting things to come back to in your posts, metro.tramp, and I'll get there later...)
 
 
matthew.
12:58 / 07.04.06
Fair enough, Deva, but I'm just telling you how I was taught it. Also, the father leaving the equation was not clear, I guess, but I did not mean that the father literally leaves the family. I meant that the mother does not focus her desire on the father because of some reason and then directs it at the son, the only other option.
 
 
Cat Chant
15:29 / 07.04.06
I think the way you were taught it might be conflating the Oedipus complex with something a bit closer to Melanie Klein's object-relations, where the infant deals with its (Klein's infant is less male-gendered than Freuds) ambivalent feelings towards the mother by splitting the mother into the 'good breast' and the 'bad breast'.

metro.tramp, I'm getting more and more interested in this project the more you say about it. The terms in which you're defining it - your references to 'presence' and to a philosphy that is tied up fully in concepts of the God, Self and Substance, which we can define somewhat as 'the male principle', the 'feminine principle' always becomes slandered - are reminding me very strongly both of Irigaray (who deals wonderfully with the idea of the feminine as material) and of Derrida (critique of a philosophy based on presence). Have you read Eperons/Spurs? It's Derrida's book on Nietzsche. It's also one of the places where he deals most explicitly with binary gender, I think. (I haven't actually read it myself - I have it kicking about somewhere.) It sounds like it would be pretty relevant, and I think it's quite short and relatively accessible (for Derrida).
 
 
petunia
16:01 / 07.04.06
Deva - thanks for you interest; it helps a lot!

Though i have a passing knowledge of Derrida, i have yet to really learn much about his works (though i must say i like what i've heard). I'll try to get hold of a copy eperons/spurs. Sounds good.

I'll also be sure to check out Irigaray. As i read more on postmodern critiques of Philosophy as we have known it, i find myself increasingly interested in the readings of power-relations and such in the history of knowledge. I find Foucault to be a helpful spur in the direction of seeing that 'our way of thinking' is just a product of centuries of different struggles and breedings (educations).

And i really fucking love Derrida's word 'Phallogocentricism'. (at least i think it was his.)

I'm becoming increasingly interested in the ways that our thought-structures/logos can change and inform our ways of acting in and perceiving the world; and the implications this has on our understanding on gender. There seems almost a chicken/egg situation where we can ask "did men become the holders of power because the thought-structures in place at the time led to a certain valourisition of that which is 'male' or do we have our thought structures in place because men took power..?" Still a pretty unformed thought really.

Foucault's attempts to show that our current scientific method is endebted to the courts of law in 16th (?) century France are excellent. I hope to read more on this as i feel it provides good instances of the way certain discourses work to exclude others - a key theme of Foucault's work.

I'd love to be able to bring in issues of binary gender (and binary thought as a whole) and will aim to do so if time allows. It'd be interesting to look at what modes of discourse/thought brought us to seeing the world in this way. It seems to me that binary thought is unavoidably linked to hierarchy and exclusion. If you have a 'no' to your 'yes', you limit yourself to aligning everything else in these categories we end up with male/female, sane/insane, correct/incorrect, master/slave and so on.

Add to this the development of a binary ethical system, and suddenly one half of every circle is condemned to 'hell' - derision, uselessness. The 'evil' becomes that which is no longer a part God (the self/'us'/'power'/validity/the discourse) and as such is punished or ignored.

I'd be interested to find out how it came to be that this God-figure became the dominant mode of discourse.. The singular prefered over the plural - the One Truth rather than many. I think this is probably where the works of Derrida may help.

I think it looks like my dissertation will have to change course somewhat from the Oedipal reading, thought Oedipus might provide a certain 'framing' of the topic. And i really like the title!

sensationalism is cool, kids.
 
 
matthew.
03:10 / 08.04.06
I thought it was Hélène Cixous who coined that term, but quick research tells me otherwise. I just finished a course on James Joyce's Ulysses and we looked at the last episode, Penelope, using Cixous' fascinating thoughts on an "écriture féminine" in the essay "The Laugh of the Medusa". I would recommend searching this out as it is very thought-provoking (that's a bad statement, but you get the drift). Cixous wrote a lot about Derrida and phallogocentrism and also wrote with Derrida.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
14:20 / 08.04.06
There are really two Fruedian Oedipus's and I tend to think that this is not being seperated sufficently here - there is obviously the philosophical take of psychoanalysis and oedipus and then there is the psychoanalytical practice where it is orientated towards the analysts/client relationship. Without putting to fine a point on it the two things are really different. You can critique the former in the terms used here but this does not affect the latter relationship.

Metro - Foucault doesn't really argue that the 'scientific method was indebted to courts of law' at all. One of the key problems with his work is that he never really defines why the natural sciences are sciences and the human ones are not sciences but 'discursive practices'. The core of the problem probably originates from his misreading of science as a discursive/rationalist endeavor - which is to forget that the sciences also begin from the experimentalist/empiricist approach of Hooke/Wren and the royal society. On the other hand he was writing before the sciences were redefined so that the human sciences, psychoanalysis and sociology for example, could be accepted as non-natual sciences. (escaping from the notion of science that Karl Popper for example maintained).

I'm bemused (once again, and as usual) by the talk of misogyny in philosophy whilst once again only drawing on male philosophers. Personally I don't think you can make that case until you start reading and discussing irigaray, kristeva, le doorf, songe-muller, midgely (etc) with the same frequency as you mention derrida, foucault, n... and co...

becoming woman...
 
 
petunia
02:36 / 10.04.06
sdv - As i said (and as you can probably tell (-: ), most of C20th philosophy is pretty new to me, so your points help a lot, though you'll have to put up with some misunderstandings and generalisations until i get my head round it all...

I was taking my understanding of Foucault's view of Scientific inquiry and Judicial practices from his text "Truth and Juridical forms (excerpt here ), specifically where he says:

"Now where does one find the origin of the inquiry? One finds it in political and administrative practice, which I'm going to talk about; one also finds it in judicial practice. The inquiry made its appearance as a form of search for truth within the judicial order in the middle of the medieval era. It was in order to know exactly who did what, under what conditions, and at what moment, that the West devised complex techniques of inquiry which later were to be used in the scientific realm and in the realm of philosophical reflection."

However, this is in a text which largely concerns itself with changes in our idea of Subject and the practices of knowledge open to it, so it may not be as relevent as i had thought.

Can you recommend any writings on Foucault's failures/misunderstandings on the matter of the sciences?

Can you give more info on the redefinition of the sciences you mention? What was the previous definition given by Popper? (my knowledge of the philosophy of sciences is even more shaky than that of contemporary philosophy...)

"I'm bemused (once again, and as usual) by the talk of misogyny in philosophy whilst once again only drawing on male philosophers. Personally I don't think you can make that case until you start reading and discussing irigaray, kristeva, le doorf, songe-muller, midgely (etc) with the same frequency as you mention derrida, foucault, n... and co..."

I agree with you. I've only come to be interested in this area very recently and so i've only just started to search out writers who deal with the topic. As male philosphers are pretty much the only that i have read so far (for the exact same reasons as i am now coming to this area of thought...) i can only engage the topic in terms of their works.

While i agree and can't expect to come anywhere near to a properly formed argument on the subject of misogyny within philosophy/thought/language/society, i must point out that it would be a rather flawed argument to say you couldn't engage the topic with reference to male philosophers at all. But i don't think you're trying to say that anyways... um..

It's late..

Perhaps i'm better off leaving the ideas of misogyny for my Phd :-)

Though there would definitely be an amusing irony in a dissertation that dealt with these issues but only referenced male authors. Perhaps i could try to get it marked only by men too?!

Bah. I need a new head.

Anybody recommend a good head shop anywhere?
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
17:32 / 21.12.06
Assuming you've already done your dissertation (i found this while searching for the keyword "virgin birth"), but there are some pretty interesting potential linkages here to Sophian Gnosticism and various "heretical" pro-woman readings of Christianity... also to some (eco-)feminist critiques of Plato (from memory, people like Valerie Plumwood?)...

Probably a more detailed post when i've dug my info up (that is, if you're still interested...)
 
 
petunia
17:52 / 23.12.06
Holy Shit!

Forgot about this.

Weeell. I kinda failed my degree before i managed to get my dissertation finished. Oops!

That said, i still end up thinking about this stuff quite a lot, so i'd definitely be up for continued discussion of the topic (though i can't right now due to the big lump of Christmas stuff i have to make.)

So yeah - much interested in anything you could dig up!
 
 
petunia
17:55 / 23.12.06
Anybody recommend a good head shop anywhere?

*cringe*
 
  
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