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A World Without Fossil Fuels

 
  

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Axolotl
17:40 / 13.04.06
Anyone see Rober Newman's "A History of Oil" on More4 yesterday? Very interesting and entertaining in its own right but also touched upon some of the questions raised in this thread. In his opinion we should already be reducing our energy consumption by, in effect go on to a war footing, with rationing and strict control of all of society's energy use.
 
 
Isadore
03:26 / 14.04.06
I don't think we'll see that much of a loss when we get rid of fossil fuels. There's hydrogen, which burns cleanly if we can just figure out a good source, and solar, wind, hydro, and geothermal plants, all of which are more environmentally friendly than fossil fuels, for electricity. (And, I just saw an interesting article on using the ocean as a heat reservoir.) While we're still weaning ourselves from petroleum products, there's always biodiesel (not the cleanest solution though), which will keep the farmers busy, and various interesting uses of agriculture can replace petrochems in a lot of industrial uses, such as plastic. And of course there's nuclear energy to tide us over for a while; if the people running it are smart and don't take stupid risks, it can be clean and safe. Better than nuking Iran at any rate.

If all else fails and we still need petrochemicals for building certain things, farm the dumps and finally deal with everything that's been disposed in the last hundred years. Grind it up, get what's usable out and recycle it, and garden with the rest. Grow trees where there used to be trash; it's about damn time. But we don't really have to recycle to be able to continue with our current lifestyle; we just need to adapt. Materials science has come a long long way in the past few years, and lots of people have lots of neat ideas. A UT-Dallas lab can produce carbon nanotubes at seven meters a minute. There's amorphous metals, which can be injection molded like plastics and are super-strong and super-light. There's ethanol. Biochemistry and molecular biology are really booming fields right now.

Transportation is easy. I've been drooling over mag-lev trains for a long time; they're expensive to build, but speedy and safe. China already has at least one that I know of. There's vehicles like the ones we use now in all ways save that they use alternate, cleaner energy sources; hybrid cars have started making inroads, the first step in transition. There's always boats with sails, as someone else said, but alternate energy sources can be used there too. Tankers to carry hydrogen, perhaps; a spill means lots of tiny glass beads each holding a microscopic bit of fuel in them, instead of oil, everywhere. Not great, but an improvement. Perhaps a space elevator, made of carbon nanotubes, to reach outside the atmosphere and carry cargo up. Existing space vehicles already burn oxygen and hydrogen and aluminium and ammonium perchlorate; once we've gotten Earth stuff figured out, hopefully we can get some decent international space programs going and get rid of the bloody outdated shuttles.

It's going to be expensive. It's going to be painful to transition. There's going to be a lot of screaming from those who don't understand what's going on. Someday, though, our grandkids will wonder what we ever saw in the internal combustion engine, and it'll be worth it.
 
 
enrieb
18:12 / 14.04.06
Yes Mr Phox I watched Rob Newman’ "A History of Oil" very interesting and entertaining it was. I searched around on the internet for a while afterwards, for one of the books that the program was based on.

THE PARTY'S OVER Oil, War, and the Fate of Industrial Societies by Richard Heinberg

I will hopefully get hold of a copy of this book over the weekend, what I have read so far has really opended my eyes. I was a bit more optimistic about the future before I came across this, believing that technology and renewables would save us all.

The following has been taken from the above link


Oil has been the cheapest and most convenient energy resource ever discovered by humans. During the past two centuries, people in industrial nations accustomed themselves to a regime in which more fossil-fuel energy was available each year, and the global population grew quickly to take advantage of this energy windfall. Industrial nations also came to rely on an economic system built on the assumption that growth is normal and necessary, and that it can go on forever.

When oil production peaks, those assumptions will come crashing down.

Try the following thought experiment. Go to the center of a city and find a comfortable place to sit. Look around and ask yourself: Where and how is energy being used? What forms of energy are being consumed, and what work is that energy doing? Notice the details of buildings, cars, buses, streetlights, and so on; notice also the activities of the people around you. What kinds of occupations do these people have, and how do they use energy in their work? Try to follow some of the strands of the web of relationships between energy, jobs, water, food, heating, construction, goods distribution, transportation, and maintenance that together keep the city thriving.
After you have spent at least 20 minutes appreciating energy's role in the life of this city, imagine what the scene you are viewing would look like if there were 10 percent less energy available. What substitutions would be necessary? What choices would people make? What work would not get done? Now imagine the scene with 25 percent less energy available; with 50 percent less; with 75 percent less.




Clearly, we will need to find substitutes for oil. But an analysis of the current energy alternatives is not reassuring. Solar and wind are renewable, but we now get less than one percent of our national energy budget from them; rapid growth will be necessary if they are to replace even a significant fraction of the energy shortfall from post-peak oil. Nuclear power is dogged by the unsolved problem of radioactive waste disposal.


I like your optimism Celene but I do not believe that there is any real alternatives to fossil fuels to supply the energy at the rate that we are using it. We need to completely and radically change the way the world works.

Hydrogen is not an energy source at all, but an energy carrier: it takes more energy to produce a given quantity of hydrogen than the hydrogen itself will yield. Moreover, nearly all commercially produced hydrogen now comes from natural gas - whose production will peak only a few years after oil begins its historic decline.



The likely economic consequences of the energy downturn are enormous. All human activities require energy - which physicists define as "the capacity to do work." With less energy available, less work can be done - unless the efficiency of the process of converting energy to work is raised at the same rate as energy availability declines. It will therefore be essential, over the next few decades, for all economic processes to be made more energy-efficient. However, efforts to improve efficiency are subject to diminishing returns, and so eventually a point will be reached where reduced energy availability will translate to reduced economic activity. Given the fact that our national economy is based on the assumption that economic activity must grow perpetually, the result is likely to be a recession with no bottom and no end.

The consequences for global food production will be no less dire. Throughout the twentieth century, food production expanded dramatically in country after country, with virtually all of this growth attributable to energy inputs. Without fuel-fed tractors and petroleum-based fertilizers, pesticides, and herbicides, it is doubtful that crop yields can be maintained at current levels.

The oil peak will also impact international relations. Resource conflicts are nothing new: pre-state societies often fought over agricultural land, fishing or hunting grounds, horses, cattle, waterways, and other resources. Most of the wars of the twentieth century were also fought over resources - in many cases, oil. But those wars took place during a period of expanding resource extraction; the coming decades of heightened competition for fading energy resources will likely see even more frequent and deadly conflicts. The US - as the world's largest energy consumer, the center of global industrial empire, and the holder of the most powerful store of weaponry in world history - will play a pivotal role in shaping the geopolitics of the new century. To many observers, it appears that oil interests are already at the heart of the present administration's geopolitical strategy.



Back on topic Richard Heinberg has a new book POWERDOWN Options and Actions for a Post-Carbon World

I have found a recent audio interview with Richard Heinberg about the new book and the future of the worlds energy needs

If the US continues with its current policies, the next decades will be marked by war, economic collapse, and environmental catastrophe. Resource depletion and population pressures are about to catch up with us, and no one is prepared. The political elites, especially in the US, are incapable of dealing with the situation and have in mind a punishing game of "Last One Standing."

The alternative is "Powerdown," a strategy that will require tremendous effort and economic sacrifice in order to reduce per-capita resource usage in wealthy countries, develop alternative energy sources, distribute resources more equitably, and reduce the human population humanely but systematically over time. While civil society organizations push for a mild version of this, the vast majority of the world's people are in the dark, not understanding the challenges ahead, nor the options realistically available.

Finally, the book explores how three important groups within global society-the power elites, the opposition to the elites (the antiwar and antiglobalization movements, et al: the "Other Superpower"), and ordinary people-are likely to respond to these fouroptions. Timely, accessible and eloquent, Powerdown is crucial reading for our times.
 
 
Isadore
02:49 / 15.04.06
I like your optimism Celene but I do not believe that there is any real alternatives to fossil fuels to supply the energy at the rate that we are using it. We need to completely and radically change the way the world works.

That is perhaps true. We need to get a lot more efficient in our energy consumption. I think it's doable, though; we have a lot of resources and knowledge and ideas we didn't have a hundred years ago. We've got clean and reproducible sources of energy that we're not using.

We've got the sub-$100 dollar laptop that runs off a hand crank. We've got refrigeration that just uses clay, sand, and water.

We can be much more efficient in our energy usage. So far we've just been lazy and taken the path of least resistance / easiest comfort, and pretty soon we're going to have to switch to a different one. The transition is already happening in bits and pieces. There's wind farms near where I live that weren't there five years ago. It's going to take a priority shift, sure. Folks are going to have to recognize that agriculture is much more important than, say, computer games, for a while. But it's definitely doable.

Humanity has survived much worse than this and come out kicking. We can do this too.
 
 
enrieb
08:01 / 15.04.06
I used to have similar hopes that new technology and renewable energy would be the long term answer to the problems that we will face when the oil does run out.

The problem I now see with the post fossil fuel world is not just replacement of our energy source; the big problem will be the impact on the economy.

Almost every part of industry, transport and agriculture is totally dependant upon oil, when the oil starts to run low or the demand from China, India and Russia grows the price of the remaining oil will rise dramatically. Imagine if in five or ten years time the price of oil is double... What sort of impact do you think that will have on the world economy?

We could see a total collapse of the world economy, possibly far worst than the 1929

Most of the wars of the twentieth century were also fought over resources - in many cases, oil. But those wars took place during a period of expanding resource extraction; the coming decades of heightened competition for fading energy resources will likely see even more frequent and deadly conflicts

it's the economy, stupid

I do hope I am wrong.
 
 
enrieb
08:51 / 15.04.06
Countries may well adapt quite well to a new way of living with solar panels on roofs, wind power, geo thermal technology and nuclear power. Growing our own food may be something we return to in the future, but just imagine how many angry hungry people will be out there. They may well decide not to grow there own food or invest in renewable technology, they may decide to invest in weapons and take your eco paradise for themselves.

We can see the risks people are prepared to take in order to travel to countries just for money/work. When food and basic living standards are the main issues we could see mass migration towards the countries that have the better standard of post fossil fuel civilization. Farmland or undersea methane hydrate stores could become the new strategic military targets of a post fossil fuel world.

Sorry if I have cast a dark cloud over this thread with my prophecies of doom, but I just needed to make the point about the economic implications for a world without fossil fuels. I think I have made my point.

I will not continue to harp on about the economy and future wars in this thread, it's slightly off topic and I don't want to come across as trying to win any argument here as there are many possible ways that the future can unfold.
 
 
enrieb
17:18 / 15.04.06
Robert Newman's "History of Oil" is repeated tonight on More4 at 11.15pm
 
 
renascens
08:09 / 25.04.06
I don't think it would. At least not till more is invested into alternatives. Here in the UK people seem to be against any alternative. It's a catch 22!
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
10:55 / 25.04.06
It's worth emphasising the link between energy use - any energy use - and climate change. All energy produced by human activity eventually ends up as heat, regardless of how that energy was obtained. Our present rate of energy consumption is a problem not just because it is depleting our stocks of fuel - it is a problem by its very nature.
As a rough analogy, Earth today is like Earth a couple of hundred years ago - but just imagine a fire steadily burning on an island somewhere, fed with (~30) billions of barrels of oil each year. A little play with numbers suggest that if the island were Manhattan, 60km^2, that amount of oil would cover it to 80m or so, roughly the height of a fifteen storey building. By way of comparison, the recent Buncefield fire was maybe one millionth the size. Scary. That's the scale of our energy use - and that's not even taking into account the contribution from sources other than oil!
 
 
Saveloy
11:04 / 25.04.06
Thanks for the replies, everyone. If anyone's interested, I posted the same question on the Friends of the Earth Forum. See here for a different set of responses.
 
 
Feverfew
15:12 / 13.05.06
Aesthetics meets Solar Power in a relatively interesting way; Solio are now offering a solar-power device in a variety of funky colours that can be used to power a variety of devices.

It seems to be more about mobile phones, PDAs and GBAs, as well as GPSs' at the moment, but who knows, maybe it'll end up with a laptop jack in the end...



Cute, non?
 
 
Jollyspaniard
10:36 / 17.05.06
The question that started this thread begs another question really. How long before the fossil fuels run out? How you feel about that question combined how optimistic you are about technological progress pretty much determines your answer.

I'm very optimistic about our chances of making this transition. In fact I suspect its going to be a net positive. We know we need to stop using fossil fuels but we're addicted to them. Global Warming is a very real threat but its a long term vague threat that doesn't resonate in the decision making of many in this world.

So having fossil fuels dry up slowly might not be a disastrous proposition.

Personaly I think advances in materials science are going to present us with a whole range of solutions. We've already got multiple promising sucessors to our exsisting solar panel technology that are extremely exciting.

Looking even farther down the road to the next 50 years or so then we may see things like fullerene flywheels, fusion and/or thermocouples.

Also keep in mind that we can produce a wide variety petrochemicals and fuels from plants. The technology to do that is over twenty years old. The only reason why we haven't implemented it is because its cheaper to pump it out of the ground.

And we can learn to live with less. Red state america may have harumphed at Global Warming and Peak Oil but they haven't been ignorning pump prices. They're in the midst of a face saving turning around on these issues.

I basicaly see our energy future like one of those bus rides in the Andes. You know you probably won't get killed but if you look out the window its hard not to be terrified.

Jose
www.memetherapy.blogspot.com
 
 
ngsq12
12:05 / 17.05.06
At last someone mentions fusion power!

The great thing about it is that we can burn away all that nasty nuclear waste that we are stockpiling at the moment. Those fast neutrons can split the waste into isotopes with more acceptable half-lifes.

An optimistic bet would be to go down the fission route (as Blair seems to be choosing) and than (eek - hopefully) a mature fusion power technology will bail us out in 50 years time.

Personally I'll bet on human inginuity provailing. Pessimists die young after all...
 
 
Quantum
16:00 / 17.05.06
The great thing about it is that we can burn away all that nasty nuclear waste that we are stockpiling at the moment. Those fast neutrons can split the waste into isotopes with more acceptable half-lifes.

Erm, I'm not sure it's as simple as you think to use waste as fusion fuel.
 
 
ngsq12
17:18 / 17.05.06
They fusion reaction would proceed as normal using tritium and deuterium and the fast neutrons would leave the reactor and hit a blanket of nuclear waste that would degrade in to isotopes with a lower half life.

Thats how matey.
 
 
Quantum
18:39 / 23.05.06
So, radioactive waste as shielding? Is that practical?

More importantly, never mind fusion, check this out-
Scientists build caramel-powered margarine-making fuel cell
"E. coli bacteria in a five litre vessel fermented run-off from nougat and caramel production lines to produce hydrogen. A second culture of Rhodobacter sphaeroides was added to increase the yield of the reaction."

So I can crosspost this into the probiotics thread! w00t!
 
 
ngsq12
08:09 / 25.05.06
I would say that the reactor that burnt of radioactive waste would not be a normal fusion reactor. It would probably be one that was less efficient and there would be design difficulties, but at least it would power itself.
 
 
Quantum
20:38 / 25.05.06
but at least it would power itself.

Cool, perpetual motion at last- maybe we could make it a cold fusion waste cleansing reactor.
 
 
Isadore
02:15 / 26.05.06
A reactor which burns its own waste in a reversible process -- would be sort of a Carnot engine, then? But how could one actually exist? I am so confused.

The hydrogen fermenter is brilliant, though. Useful byproducts are always a plus, and hydrogen itself burns cleanly with oxygen, as has already been discussed.

Speaking of hydrogen, the US Department of Energy just filed a patent for paladium fuel balls, which would make handling it a lot lot easier. And speaking of fusion reactors, some bright folks out there are working on reducing the natural wear and tear on them from the inside. They've got some results, but the theory isn't well enough understood yet to be safe to use.
 
 
elene
15:18 / 27.07.06
This looks just too good to be true, but it does seem to be for real.

A Stroke of Genius? A New Recipe for Coal

The process is environmentally friendly, as the only by-product is water - not carbon dioxide which would contribute to global warming. Antonietti has successfully managed to develop this method so that it could be used for commercial coal production. Such coal could just be used for heating purposes, but it could be used far more effectively in electricity and gasoline production. The 70 million tonnes of biomass that Germany produces every year would be sufficient to cover the country's energy needs.
...
Markuis Antonietti from Max Planck Institute of Colloids and Interfaces: "Like in a restaurant you can have your steak rare or well done. We can adjust our coal to be just a bit refined, or we can cook it until it's like hard coal. One end of the spectrum is topsoil, the other is hard coal."

When the researchers cook their coal mixture for just five hours, the result is topsoil. This nutrient-rich earth can be used to help barren landscapes bloom.
...

"We are dreaming of a carbon fuel cell. That would be direct electrochemical conversion of the coal, without the actual burning process. Other applications are in chemistry, for example, directly making gasoline out of the coal."


There are also several articles in the German Press, of course, such as Kohle aus dem Kochtopf in Der Spiegel.
 
 
Atyeo
12:37 / 03.08.06
Does anyone know of any good literature on sustainable energy systems whether it be book or a good website. I'm starting a Masters in this area soon and I'm trying to collate as much info as possible.

All I can find at the moment is this book but it was published 3 years ago and so may prove a little dated...

When I've graduated, I'll give you my qualified opinion

Thanks
 
 
Red Concrete
21:07 / 02.05.07
The techonology has been around a few years, but the first commercially operated solar tower plant opened recently. The reason I want to post it, is that the pictures are pretty cool:


may not work, but is from one of the BBC reports here.

This is different from the solar chimney projects in Australia and elsewhere (which also look amazing, and I think are projected to be much bigger), in that mirrors focus sunlight onto a point on the tower to vapourise water, and drive turbines.
 
 
Red Concrete
21:12 / 02.05.07
Now that I've posted it I'm fairly sure it's not the first commerical plant at all. I've childhood memories surfacing of Blue Peter or John Craven or someone reporting on something like this years ago...
 
 
astrojax69
02:04 / 03.05.07
the big dish at anu is developing tech to split ammonia into constituent parts with solar rays - these chemicals can then be kept separated until needed, when they can drive turbines and produce energy - so, 'on tap' as it were energy from solar.

why isn't it getting even more funding, and what other breakthrough projects are out there under-funded/under-promoted in this climate of energy security?
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:04 / 03.05.07
Picture of the Big Dish here (scroll down the page a bit, it's Fig. 5).

It's a damn good idea that, ammonia is a widely produced chemical so I can't imagine it being too expensive to run from that side of things. I wonder what catalyst they use.

why isn't it getting even more funding

I wouldn't call seven million dollars under-funding it though. But they're looking for commercial funding as well from what I gather in the link above. I would guess that this is currently on the stage of development a couple of tiers beyond the lab bench. If they can demonstrate that it works safely and cleanly here then I imagine they'll get more money to upscale it further.
 
 
*
20:59 / 25.05.07
Is this a scam?

I hear about Magnegas every now and then, and then nothing, for another year or so. What the hell, people? If the technology is good, get it out there, if it's not, SHUT UP about it.
 
 
Lagrange's Nightmare
03:24 / 26.05.07
Is this a scam?

Maybe, it's kind of hard to tell. They seem to be better than most companies, there have been no claims of free energy or overunity i think it just comes down to price and energy efficiency.

From this presentation It mentions requiring 10,000 degrees (F) and 1000 Amps as well as UV radiation so it is extremely likely you use more electrical energy in the processing then what you get from the fuel (I don't belive they have ever provided a complete set of data). The process certainly seems plausible as a combination of electrolysis and methane from waste.

They claim it is cheaper to produce then fuel, but there are a whole range of factors in this: price of electricity, subsidies, money gained for using waste etc and it is in this area the company has been most eh 'fudgy'. This of course is not surprising as most companies like to selectively state statistics that benefit them.

Overall i guess it could have two benefits - remove dependance on oil/gas (which depends on how cheap it is) or benefits to the environment depending on the waste products and how the electricity is generated...
 
 
*
04:38 / 26.05.07
The nice man in the video says about two thirds of the energy could conceivably be produced from reclaimed heat from the process, leaving the remaining third to be produced preferably by sustainable means... yes? no? (I am a humanities person.)
 
 
Lagrange's Nightmare
09:52 / 26.05.07
Yeah, sorry i oculdn't make it through the video... It depends on what the temperature of the waste heat is really. The actual process seems to use extreme heat, but these are associated with an electric spark so i'm not sure how much heat will be transferred to the water.

If the waste heat is a high (say so you can produce steam) then there would be heaps of potential to use, but a lower heat density means you can only heat things and then really need to be close to residential / commercial areas. But I don't think enough details have been released to let you know (someone wishing to research it more thoroughly then me may find the details though).

I am no position to judge whether the process works or not, the actual inventer Santilli is extremely smart and seems on the level, if a little erratic. He has introduced whole new mathematics and chemistry concepts to support this invention and there is some support in academic circles, but there also seems to be a large amount of disinterest so i don't know what's going on there. Maybe momentum just needs to pick up or maybe there is something fundamentally wrong and he is just crazy.

The fact that a lot of energy is required may not be the biggest issue though (america still has corn based ethanol after all) if the resulting benefits in waste management / portable fuel are good enough. He claims to be working with European government support so something might happen...
 
  

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