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A World Without Fossil Fuels

 
  

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Saveloy
13:32 / 27.03.06
Imagine that some miracle occurs and the world stops using fossil fuels altogether - at a point before the planet has become uninhabitable.

Assume some incredible planning and cooperation so that the fossil-free world is the best of all possible fossil-free worlds and is up and running already when the supplies of coal and petrol are cut off. How would the world work, and what would it look like?

Are we looking at a simple return to the pre-petrol, pre-coal age? Or would some later technologies survive?

Your thoughts, please. Links to speculations elsewhere would be good, too.
 
 
Olulabelle
14:59 / 27.03.06
Well pre-exisiting technological equipment like my laptop here could be powered by alternative energy; wind, water, whichever was most suitable for me and the area I live.

Wouldn't many technologies continue to evolve in the first instance by using alternative fuel sources? Presuming that initially that power is limited and not as widly accessible as fossil fuel power, maybe the world would begin to debate the use of alternative power to fuel companies which did things like create computer games, but perhaps agree to continue to supply power to establishments investigating, for instance, the human genome?

I suspect the debate on which technologies should continue to be powered would be as heated as the current one on global warming. No pun intended.
 
 
MJ-12
15:18 / 27.03.06
Bear in mind that beyond fuel, petrochemicals are used in, well, damn near everything.
 
 
Axolotl
16:42 / 27.03.06
The modern world without plastics, for example, would be almost unrecognisable.
 
 
grant
17:48 / 27.03.06
In the short term, there'd be a lot of shoddily constructed, jerry-rigged windmills for generating electricity. People would be making 'em out of ceiling fans and power drills, I bet. (Online, you can find plans for a power-generating windmill using an electric generator motor and a big-assed propellor.)

On the plastic side, you'd also see a lot of crap being held together with glue, masking tape and baling wire. A world without plastic is a world with no duct tape.

I imagine some wiseguys would bring back the steam age using uranium or plutonium to boil water to make some cars run -- only CEOs and high-ranking politicos need apply.

Lots of bicycles. Stationary bikes, too. Gyms would become new utility centers.

I imagine latex would become a major industry again -- viva la rainforest and long live the rubber trees. Edison was also experimenting with ways to get rubber out of cornflowers, so I think you'd see differences in farming patterns.

But transport would be immense. I'd be eating a lot more fish, and probably canned vegetables during the summer -- but not when fresh was available, because they'd be exorbitantly expensive. Man, garlic might be a problem for me, too. I imagine for those of you further north or south, winter would become very, very unpleasant from a dietary perspective, at least for a while.

Ho, but sailing! A whole new sailing industry! That'd be cool.
 
 
Saturn's nod
18:08 / 27.03.06
Well, the future I'm aiming at definitely has internet. And an electrical grid which is relatively robust due to many local power producers. Lots of micro-hydro, micro-wind turbines, solar panels on houses, geothermal pumps for when it's cold. Hyper-efficient low particulate emission solid fuel stoves are pretty common, upon which coppiced wood is burnt from plantations in most residential areas. Perhaps people again time their activities mostly by sunlight, with electric lights reserved for emergency use.

Houses are built & converted to make maximum use of passive solar heating - open & with greenhouse/conservatories to the south, solar hot water heating & cooking anywhere there's enough sun, very well insulated so a little heating goes a long way. Houses get designed with functionailty in mind, so there's usually a high ceiling niche above the stove for drying clothes. Rainwater harvesting is common, for drinking, washing etc.

Transport is not as easy as it was in the boom age of fossil fuels: it's easier to move information than people. Horses, oxen, cycles, feet are all common ways to travel, along with canoes, horse-drawn canal barges, and sailing ships. Shipments of chocolate, coffee, spices and other luxuries still move around the world regularly (don't accept a future without chocolate!). The common design principles make the most of all the engineering knowledge of the oil century, so it doesn't look quite like anything seen in the past.

The way I understand it, we are heading into energy descent - the fossil fuel store was a one-time shot. It's like a store of mother's milk, to raise humanity into the intelligence possible now and we now have to move on, grow up and get much smarter. The future has an energy turnover similar to pre-industrial-revolution times, but it puts to work all the smarts of a post-fossil fuel society. Let's imagine that the second half of the fossil fuel store gets put mostly into investment use: setting up sustainable enterprises for a flexible thousand year scale.

I like David Holmgren's work on Permaculture principles, for getting to grips with specifics of sustainable future.
 
 
Axolotl
17:35 / 28.03.06
That's great AM64, and I'd love to see that kind of stuff now, but without petrochemicals it's not possible: Without plastic for computers you don't have an internet, and once the manufacturing capability is gone, how long do you reckon your current keyboard will last? I think people often under-estimate how important the petrochemical industry is in modern society, and not just for fuel.
However, your point about fossil fuel being a one time shot is very true. Using them gives you a very short window with which to develop and hopefully step out into a wider (and smarter world), but once they're gone, that's it. If we don't wise up soon we'll lose the chance forever and condemn our descendants to a difficult, limited, subsistence existence forever, or until the next big asteroid hits us.
I know I sound like some crazy technocrat with this rant, but I like modern life, I like the internet, ipods, coffee, chocolate, the chance to travel the world. I like not having to live on a diet of potatoes and salted meat while toiling in the fields. It's not perfect, and I'd love it if everyone could share in its pleasures instead of being stuck in a sweatshop or at the arse end of a plough, but if we don't sort ourselves out, it will be gone forever and nothing will be able to bring it back.
 
 
elene
18:01 / 28.03.06
While I strongly agree that we grossly underestimate the various ways just about everything we have depends on hydrocarbons at present, I do hope that carbon nanotubes and similar materials will, with improving technology, be able to replace plastics in very many cases, and would point out, as grant has already, that of course there's also rubber and several other materials which are, at least as far as raw material is concerned, independent of oil.

By the way, if I remember correctly, the manufacture of plastics only accounts for some 3-4% of all oil consumption. That, I think, indicates the rate at which we are wasting oil, what we have to lose in the future due to this waste, and the urgency to cap it, quite well.

Mr Phox, having lived on a diet of potatoes and salted meat while toiling in the fields, I wholeheartedly agree.
 
 
grant
21:15 / 28.03.06
Actually, is it possible to build a computer without plastic & petrochemicals? I'm not sure how all the chips and that are constructed, but I think most of the components are various kinds of ceramics & silicon. The plastic is in the circuit board (I suppose wood or something would do) and the keys & case. Use ivory or bone or something. Or, part of what I was getting at earlier, plastic never really goes away. Lots of reuse of old plastic stuff to make new plastic stuff.

New laptops would probably be screwed, though -- I don't think you can patch up a plasma/LCD screen very well with anything. And these touchpads would be dead in the water, I think. Unless you could make a parchment one.
 
 
*
23:11 / 28.03.06
Bioplastics, anyone?
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
03:39 / 29.03.06
The talk about non-petrochemical alternatives for computer parts made me remember a William Gibson novel (Idoru maybe?) in which manufacture of laptops and the like was a cottage industry: little mom 'n' pop operations would lovingly craft individual computers, with brass lining, seashells, mahogany, pretty much anything. Of course the practicalities of the heat being generated by the processor might stop that kind of artistry being viable. Also, I am reminded of when I worked in a Electronics store (lots of plastic there) and the most frequent request from customers was a TV with wood, or at least wood grain, to blend into their homes better than the big grey boxes we sold.
So, I'm expecting wood to reinstate itself in a lot more electronic consumer goods than we see today, but it will only go so far. More likely we'll enter a long 'post-plastic' phase where plastic goods are constantly being recycled (Plastic Hunting could become a viable profession)- but this begs the question: can the world's current supply of plastics actually be recycled indefinitely? Is part of say, a plastic bottle lost when it is melted down and turned into another plastic bottle?
 
 
Loomis
07:05 / 29.03.06
I like not having to live on a diet of potatoes and salted meat

Surely that's only a small difference to the current Scottish diet of meat and salted potatoes? Arf arf.

I don't know much about replacing plastics, but in terms of energy production, I expect nuclear reactors to be brought back into the equation. The govt is already making noises in that direction and I think it'sonly a matter of time until they go ahead with it. I would first like to see every available space covered with wind turbines and solar panels and every effort made to conserve energy through insulation etc. but it will never be able to keep us at our current levels of consumption. I'm not keen on nuclear for obvious environmental reasons, but cold countries aren't going to go back to life without heat and electricity while it is an option.

I'm not sure how well nuclear energy can be stored and transported but it can cover electricity needs. Cars and/or trains should eventually be able to run on solar/water engines, even if not very quickly then at least enough for essential things like transporting food around the country.

In this article George Monbiot attempts a rough analysis of how much energy can be saved through renewables and reduction in usage.
 
 
grant
14:46 / 29.03.06
Is part of say, a plastic bottle lost when it is melted down and turned into another plastic bottle?

The kind of recycling I have in mind involves cleaning the bottle and relabeling it, not melting it and reforming it. I'm picturing computers cobbled together with mismatched keys, lots of cracks and things held together with string/paper tape. Refilled bottles. Adaptation of existing objects or components to new uses.

Maybe I'm just projecting my idealized lifestyle onto the future, however.

Oh, and it just occurred to me that trucking would probably be able to continue as it is now -- there's already a biodiesel industry in its infancy. Willie Nelson's selling the stuff. The roads would fall into disrepair pretty soon, though -- I think asphalt is still based on petrochemicals (tar).
 
 
Axolotl
18:23 / 29.03.06
Once the oil runs out though, would we have the werewithal to build all the stuff we'd need to let us maintain our level of technology? Could our societies' infrastructures be re-worked without the fossil fuels to do so? Or would we get a widespread collapse with pockets of "civilisation" based around existing nuclear reactors and the like?
Once (if) this collapse has happened could we recover or would it be a matter of eking out an ever decreasing standard of living out of the scraps of the past? For some reason I keep thinking of Easter Island, and they bought about their doom.
I think one problem is the fact that we seem to be sleepwalking towards this catastrophe, and no-one seems to be thinking about it, perhaps the really far-sighted governments are looking 50 years ahead with regards to climate change, but few people seem to be thinking about 200 years when not only will we be up to our necks in melted icecaps, but all the oil will be gone as well.
I don't like thinking about this too much. It makes me feel like moving to the boondocks and hoarding stuff. I'd be a rubbish survivalist as well.
 
 
Saturn's nod
20:54 / 29.03.06
Phox, to me these are such important questions, and it's precisely because they're so difficult to face that so few people are facing them. George Marshall gave a talk for COIN last year called "Sleepwalking into disaster", a few months after Joanna Macy's talk in the same series, "Climate change and other great adventures". George Marshall's goes right to the great question: why is Climate Change as an issue so difficult for us monkeys to hold in mind?

[Apologies if this is repetitive, I think I may have posted links to these essays from another thread recently but I haven't managed to locate it by google or barbe-search.]

I was trying to gesture at these difficulties in posts to 'Beyond Anti-psychiatry': here & here. I suspect that a lot of the disease, despair, numbness/'apathy' amongst us humans has to do with the pain we feel about the state of the world and our inability to deal with it. (Although I would like to see that tested.)

Ultimately my activism is powered by the difficult feelings, and the discomfort. They are the evidence of how much I love the world, how deeply connected into it I am, and how much I care about the future. When I can make space to witness my own reaction to the state of the world, I can stop fighting the painful reaction and instead allow it to propel me into living solutions.
 
 
quixote
04:26 / 30.03.06
just to amplify id(entity)'s brief comment about bioplastics. Plastics are just long chain hydrocarbons formed used a certain process. Many plants produce suitable raw materials for the process. Those plastics would be more expensive (not astronomically so), but there wouldn't be any shortage for truly critical components (like my laptop) or for pharmaceuticals. Plastic shopping bags would probably be history.

I like to imagine the world much as am464 does. However, in terms of fuel for transport, I think the tone is unnecessarily pessimistic. Ethanol can power engines just as well as gasoline, with minor modifications. There's not even any need to totally reinvent the distribution network. The technology is simpler and currently available (unlike car engine nukes) and a good bit healthier. Brazil has been doing the most with this technology. One link to a report on Khosla, Sun Computer founder and venture capitalist, funding startups in this area is here.

Ideally, I'd like to see photovoltaics plus fuel cells powering cars. Ethanol would be an interim stage in my world....
 
 
elene
11:18 / 30.03.06
I agree with quixote that we won't become technically impotent just like that but the fact is that there almost certainly will be a prolonged period of chaos during the years after peak oil.

Our economic system presumes growth. We've all experienced periods of reduced economic growth and they were not good, but once the cheap oil is gone our economies must shrink. Huge quantities of money will become worthless overnight. Industries will collapse, industry might collapse. Therefore, although we can technically switch to other energy sources and production techniques we might not be in the economic and industrial state to do so until it's too late.

If the lights go out there's a real danger they'll never come back on. The only way I see this being avoided is with some form of war economy. There'll be a dictatorship of one from or another.

Sorry, an addition: I don't know a thing about economics and thought that even in recession the economy grows, just rather slowly, but I looked it up and that's not true, at least not in terms of the real GDP. That doesn't really matter here though. Without cheap oil there will be major economic and industrial collapse, and most of it won't be rebuilt without us first accomplishing a very complete move to alternative technologies. Beyond a certain point it might well be too late to achieve such a changeover, when we no longer have the oil to run the machines to build the factory to produce the alternative energy source, and in that case it'll never happen. Sooner or later this will become clear to people with power and they will act to maintain a stable society, with the above mentioned consequences.
 
 
Feverfew
17:40 / 30.03.06
Phex - the idea you mention is also worked with in Heavy Weather by Bruce Sterling, I believe, and it's well visualised but not totally fleshed out, IIRC.

Which underlies my basic problem with this concept - I can't help but think in science-fiction terms when it comes to the integration of "green" energy into modern life.

For instance, I seem to be the only person I know who actually likes wind turbines. I think they look fine, and not particularly detrimental to the landscape. Others disagree.

When I say "science fiction terms", also, I think I'm wandering down the aesthetics route - it's not enough in some cases just that it works, it also has to look good too; sure, a giant solar panel on your roof will generate a chunk of your power for a long time, but what will the neighbours say? Possibly facile, I know, but still.

The big question for me is why gyms don't hook up treadmills, exercise bikes etc to dynamo-style apparatus so people can generate electricity while they exercise - or is this done and I'm just being a little ignorant?
 
 
grant
17:53 / 30.03.06
The only place I know of that being done is in one dude's house in Lake Worth (worth a news story every time a hurricane knocks out our grid) and in a handful of playgrounds in sub-Saharan Africa, thanks to one other guy who's developing them.

Solar power is still fucking expensive, by the way (I had a guy who installs PV components walking around on my roof one day a few months back). Per kilowatt hour, buying power from the public utilities still works out cheaper (unless you live in one of the few places that practices what they call "net metering" -- in which you remain hooked to the grid and sell power back to the utility). It also makes it a lot harder to repair/replace your roof, which is generally already the single greatest expense a homeowner is going to face every 10 years or so.
 
 
illmatic
09:46 / 02.04.06
Bruce Sterling totally deserves a mention actually.

Outside of his fiction, he's been responsible for the Viridian Design movement which is an attempt to imagine/kickstart a Green design movement.

Googling for Viridian also brought up World Changing.com which looks to be of great interest.
 
 
illmatic
14:21 / 02.04.06
This interview has some interesting bits about the Viridian "movement".

Reason: You’re obviously trying to take some dimension of environmentalism and take it in a new and different direction that isn’t particularly anti-modern or anti-technological. And you’ve tried to frame your "Greens" as an art movement rather than as a political movement.

Sterling: …. The central topic is the greenhouse effect as a post-industrial design problem. It’s not just about raising money for flood victims, which is one way to deal with the consequences. It’s about thinking about how we got into this mess, making people realize the mess, and exploring mechanisms -- technologies -- by which we might conceivably get out.
 
 
Axolotl
15:10 / 02.04.06
I glanced over that Veridian site. It looks pretty cool and I reckon I'm going to spend some time reading up on it. While I don't agree with all of his points, it's exciting to see people caring about the environment while still being pro-technology. The Green movement's anti-technology slant puts me off supporting any of the political parties inspired by it.
 
 
illmatic
17:45 / 02.04.06
The World's Changing Site is very positve actually - that's some sort of Viridian spin off which shares the same concerns. I think it's really important to be exposed to these sources when one is feeling all isolated and lonesome.
 
 
julius has no imagination
11:23 / 03.04.06
Well, to refer back to the original question, I'll have a look at the "best possible" of all fossil-fuel-free worlds. However, I'm taking "best possible" only in the context of energy, leaving out social/economic issues.
Because in those terms, as I see it, nothing would change. The energy would come from renewable sources (well, renewable to the extent that the sun is...), but there'd be enough of it. For electricity this is simple - put up enough wind turbines and everything can go on as before (of course, by "enough wind turbines" I mean a mix of various sources including wind, solar, biomass etc. with enough capacity to cover peak demand reliably, with carefully limited environmental impact, plus some energy conservation measures as well). For transportation it's trickier, but in principle I reckon it's possible.

So let me go into the question of transportation in a little more depth. Ideally, of course, there would be some practical changes here, as in, changes to people's behaviour. Ideally, people would be using cars a lot less, in favour of bikes and public transport. Where they do drive, they'd be driving smaller, more fuel-efficient cars. Also, for medium-distance travel, rail travel would be more important than driving or flying (long-distance is trickier). But even so, we're not going to wean ourselves off our cars any time soon (if ever) - and, really, would we want to?
So... supplying the energy for public transport (both local and long-distance) is simple, assuming we already have a sustainable-energy electric grid in place - most of this is going to be rail-based, so it's just a matter of electrifying all rail systems.
Cars are more difficult. The big buzzword is hydrogen (and fuel cells) but I think that's a bit of a dead end (or, at best, a long shot, not ready for prime-time anytime soon). The hydrogen has to come from somewhere, but assuming that we have sustainable electricity, we can produce hydrogen from that. However, storing hydrogen is incredibly difficult, and more so in a vehicle. You either need incredible pressure, cryogenic temperatures, or both, so there's no small risk of things blowing up. My pet theory is that liquid hydrocarbons are the way to go. In other words, petrol. It just needs to come from sustainable sources instead - ethanol from sugar cane, biodiesel from canola, or equivalent liquids from other crops (or, preferably, waste products). But I've heard from an engineer (and it sounds intuitive to me) that petrol is just about the best imaginable way to power a car or similar vehicle; another point is that the technology of internal combustion engines is very highly developed and if we could find a sustainable way of powering those engines that'd be ideal.

Anyway, enough of that rambling. My point is that as far as I can see it, the technology to eliminate our dependence on fossil fuels exists. We'd just have to rigorously implement it, and that ain't happening (not quickly enough). I'm somewhat pessimistic about that part - if we don't do it quickly enough, then, global warming aside, we're in for serious economic trouble, as plenty of others have said in this thread. I'm not quite as pessimistic as some of you - I don't think we'll permanently lose all civilisation and technology, but I think we could be looking at an extended 'dark age' of some sort (which would look more like 1984 than like the middle ages, though). Of course, the whole climate change thing won't help much either.
 
 
illmatic
15:51 / 03.04.06
For more positive futureology, check out the Long Now Foundation - lots of inspiration over there. I'm currently listening to Brian Eno's speech from their seminar downloads. Very interesting.
 
 
quixote
02:52 / 04.04.06
elene has a point that none of this is going to happen without major disruption, possibly so major that it starts a new Dark Age. The thing I find so maddening is that it didn't have to be that way. If, by some miracle, we'd started using green tech back in the 1970s, we'd be well on the way to what economists call a "smooth landing" by now. But we didn't. Europe is starting to adjust now, but the US has its head firmly in a tar pit, so, yes, the readjustment is going to be a nightmare and may not even be possible.

It didn't have to be this way.
 
 
elene
08:25 / 04.04.06
It didn't have to be this way.

Actually I think that given our economic system, one predicated on a positive average economic growth, the presence of quite abundant oil and our innate reluctance to limit our population, this was in fact inevitable. I certainly can't discern a point at which we might plausibly have changed our way.

We will be forced to either a steady-state economy and population, and one that can be supported using only renewable energy at that, or else to extinction by this problem.

I do agree with Illmatic though, that one must keep a positive outlook. No -- really!
 
 
Brunner
12:10 / 04.04.06
I've yet to read the links posted above but what I find most depressing about this thread is the western bias. Now that isn't a criticism - most of us live in the west and would expect to benefit from green technologies when and if they become available and affordable. But what happens to those people in poorer parts of the world who even in these affluent times can barely eke out a living? People in sub-Saharan Africa whose very lives will be covered in sand as the desert expands? Those in China being forceably displaced from their lands in the name of economic growth? They can't all move to cities, they can't all hope to survive. The west may eventually look after itself in terms of energy but the longer our governments prevaricate on the issue of climate change the slimmer the chances of those in the third world. Essentially, we will probably achieve the noble aim of reducing the planets population by virtue of half of it starving to death, dying from poverty related disease or killing eachother over meagre resources.

Sorry to bring it down a level....
 
 
grant
13:28 / 04.04.06
Those in China being forceably displaced from their lands in the name of economic growth?

For economic growth from renewable energy. The Three Gorges dam will eventually provide as much electricity as 18 nuclear plants, they say. Hydroelectric. In a way, they're already in that future. Only with the smog from hydrocarbons, too.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
03:01 / 05.04.06
Remember upthread when I was talking about laptop and computer cases being made from wood/metals etc.? Well this guy's doing it. There's not many pictures of the results, but from what I can see his laptop mod is very stylish. His iPod cases are teh cute too.
 
 
stabbystabby
23:15 / 06.04.06
regarding the comment about gyms utilising the power generated by exercise - my gym (in Australia) uses the power generated by the exercise bike to run the little inbuilt stereo system. I mean, it's not much, but it's a start.
 
 
Woodsurfer
00:39 / 07.04.06
"Whoa, podner, what's that thunderin' sound and the heap o' dust comin' up yonder hill?"

"Dang, Luke! I think it's them Four Horsemen o' the Apocalypse again!"

Yes, Western Civilization could well be grinding to a halt. And just as we were starting to enjoy it. ;-)

The talk of plastic amuses me. How could we live without it? I am just old enough to remember a world before plastics (for the most part). In the early '50s, nylon was the miracle replacement for silk stockings and there were a few items made of "bakelite" here and there. I, for one, would welcome a time when a plastic was reserved for strictly necessary uses -- not, for instance, to enshroud even the smallest article of merchandise in a crystalline carapace requiring brute force and cursing to dislodge. Yug!

But energy is the big issue we face as we slide over the curve in petroleum production. We Americans are just not getting it and we won't until not even all the creditl left on your Platinum Visa will buy enough fuel to get that Cadillac Escalade home (hey, don't look at me, I drive a Mini). Fuel from biomass shows some promise but it has been pointed out that if fuel crops prove to be the most profitable use of the land, food crops will be given the back seat and it'll get awfully expensive to eat. Free market y'know -- like it or lump it. What an adventure the futurel will be!
 
 
Axolotl
13:45 / 08.04.06
I didn't say we couldn't live without plastics, I said it would be difficult to continue our early 21st century lifestyle without plastics. I agree with you however that the use of plastic packaging could (and should) be vastly reduced.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:09 / 09.04.06
Brunner you might be interested in this for an idea of renewable power as providing electricity in unexpected places. It's not the third world but it can certainly provide a different type of viewpoint on the issue.
 
 
Brunner
12:40 / 10.04.06
Thanks Nina, that link was really interesting - it demonstrates that wind power can provide almost constant electricity (if coupled with batteries) and that localised generation may be the best way forward, especially in such remote communities. I guess it could well be that these communities will ultimately cope better than we will, what with our reliance on a National Grid type of arrangement!
 
  

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