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"I don't trust those scary atheists, with their 'being' and 'nothingness'. They give me the willies!"

 
  

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matthew.
02:34 / 24.03.06
Here is the study.

Quote:

(Mod note: this was posted without a working link - this has now been fixed - the link above leads to the same place as the link in the following post)
 
 
matthew.
02:35 / 24.03.06
Fuck. I borked it. Here we go, start again.

Here is the study

Quote: From a telephone sampling of more than 2,000 households, university researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society.” Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry.

[atheists] offer a symbolic moral boundary to membership in American society. “It seems most Americans believe that diversity is fine, as long as every one shares a common ‘core’ of values that make them trustworthy—and in America, that ‘core’ has historically been religious,” says the head researcher.

Say what? That's scary.
 
 
SMS
03:39 / 24.03.06
I'm not sure what to make of it, though. It seems like the study was set up to rank how much each person trusted an entire group of people. "So, do you think most Muslims share your vision of America?" Is that how the question is worded? If the study is set up in a way that's guaranteed to set some minority at the bottom of the list, I'm glad it isn't gays, Muslims, or some race, frankly. Because those are the people who seem to be most likely to be physically assaulted for being a member of the minority.

What does it mean that most Americans are least likely to "allow" their children to marry an atheist? Does that mean 50% wouldn't allow it compared with 30% for Muslims or does it mean 4% compared with 2%?

It is a little shocking how many people misunderstand atheism, though. No, not shocking. It's really frustrating.
 
 
matthew.
03:48 / 24.03.06
I think the "allowing marriage" is a funny part of this "study". Who is "allowing" marriage anymore? It would interesting to figure out where on the political compass these people are, the ones who says the words "I won't allow my [offspring] to marry an atheist". I would bet they would be "conservative" slash Republican.
 
 
Isadore
03:53 / 24.03.06
But what about the atheist Republicans, then?
 
 
astrojax69
04:30 / 24.03.06
only a shotgun wedding for them...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:51 / 24.03.06
Both links seem to be borked for me...
 
 
Jub
10:30 / 24.03.06
borkolo pour moi aussie.
 
 
sleazenation
10:54 / 24.03.06
I'm increassingly coming to agreement with Richard Dworkin's assessment

The reason organized religion merits outright hostility is that, unlike belief in Russell's teapot, religion is powerful, influential, tax-exempt and systematically passed on to children too young to defend themselves. Children are not compelled to spend their formative years memorizing loony books about teapots. Government-subsidized schools don't exclude children whose parents prefer the wrong shape of teapot. Teapot-believers don't stone teapot-unbelievers, teapot-apostates, teapot-heretics and teapot-blasphemers to death. Mothers don't warn their sons off marrying teapot-shiksas whose parents believe in three teapots rather than one. People who put the milk in first don't kneecap those who put the tea in first.
 
 
matthew.
12:39 / 24.03.06
The link worked last night. Ah sucks.

Here's a .pdf from the project that's short and gets the major point across

I'll keep looking for the study.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:42 / 24.03.06
Hmm, sleaze, is there any more where that came from? Piqued my interest.
 
 
matthew.
12:42 / 24.03.06
Here is some more information about the study but warning: this is almost an editorial.
 
 
sleazenation
12:59 / 24.03.06
Certainly Legba - it's from A Devil's Chaplain, Richard Dawkins (whose name I embaressingly misspelt in my last post)

Russell's teapot is an allusion to Bertrand Russell's notion of organized religion being akin to a belief in a teapot orbiting in space, but too small to be seen or in any way be proven to exist... At might also be worth mentioning at this point Russell's entertaining Essay Why I am not a Christian
 
 
BlueMeanie
13:06 / 24.03.06
Of course atheism was always used to depict the Soviets as Godless and inhuman during the cold war, so no wonder it's retained a kind of 'evil aura' for Americans.

sleazenation - Russell's teapot is an allusion to Bertrand Russell's notion of organized religion being akin to a belief in a teapot orbiting in space, but too small to be seen or in any way be proven to exist...

This kind of analogy is only really suitable to a very narrow interpretation of Abrahamic religions. Even then, it's a very cartoon-like depiction of a massive subject of human experience. Unfortunately, in my opinion, statements such as this are something that get wheeled out a lot.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:46 / 24.03.06
People who put the milk in first don't kneecap those who put the tea in first.

Dawkins is going to the wrong parties. "It was a Violent Party- A Coffee Morning".
 
 
Ganesh
18:43 / 24.03.06
Hawksmoor - from the (Gold) Blend.
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:51 / 24.03.06
Of course atheism was always used to depict the Soviets as Godless and inhuman during the cold war, so no wonder it's retained a kind of 'evil aura' for Americans.

Sometimes I get the feeling that, at least for some Americans, anything "non-American" is evil by default. It's a "if they are good people, why don't they behave more like us?" attitude.

And how about agnosticism? Are agnostics mistrusted too? Did this survey even bothered with them, or they were rounded up with the atheists, as if they were the same thing?
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
19:20 / 24.03.06
So does this mean that Americans are moe accepting of satanists than atheists*? And if so, does that mean that Americans finall know what Satanism is? (I'm thinking 'no')
 
 
Fritz K Driftwood
19:51 / 24.03.06
I think that you will find that many an atheist is the States tells any person that asks that they are an agnostic, so no children or evangelicals are frightened.

Also, the US has historically had an isolationist/xenophobic streak that views anything outside it's borders as diabolic. Republicans had a very pro-isolation wing for many decades before WW2, and they delayed FDR's joining the Allied side until Pearl Harbour. Part of that was not wanting to get involved in what was viewed as Europe's complicated politics, in part due to the perceived fiasco that was WW1.

I believe it is also why religion has such a hold on Americans and their politics to this day. Many groups moved to the US because of religious oppression in their former homes. So religion has a very complicated place in US folklore and politics, in a much different way for instance than our neighbors Mexico and Canada. Americans don't have a "state" religion, rather religion is an entity that citizens aren't allowed to criticise in any constructive way and is nominally separate from the state, but politicians here love to pay lipservice to. And so many here have relatives that fled Ireland/Germany/Sweden/Russia/Iran/etc due to religious beliefs for the past two centuries. American folklore begins with those poor, grim Pilgrims (making the lives of the Native Americans they encountered poorer and grimmer), and continues to the present with halfwits like Pat Robertson and his "God-hates-you" weather forecasting.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
20:00 / 24.03.06
oh snakes on a plane, i'm fucked.
 
 
Dead Megatron
20:12 / 24.03.06
This 'snakes on a plane' thing is truly getting out of hand. There simple aren't that many flying snakes on this planet, you know?
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
20:23 / 24.03.06
I don't know about you, DM, but there are always snakes on my planes...
 
 
Fritz K Driftwood
22:47 / 24.03.06
I was thinking about it and would add that there is a systematic lack of any sort of teaching of critical thinking in the US, and it seems to make it easier to demonize stuff by repeating ludicrous shit.

As for snakes on a plane, it's not like they are rabid ferrets or what have you. Just snakes, pick up your legs or throw shoes at them. Now if they were winged snakes....
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
01:56 / 25.03.06
look, anything that they have to enlist Sam Jackson to fight is automatically HARDCORE. I mean, you don't go to the lengths of getting Sam to fight just anything. If Sam is there, you know there is going to be a rumble of mythic proportions.
 
 
Isadore
02:05 / 25.03.06
I think that you will find that many an atheist is the States tells any person that asks that they are an agnostic, so no children or evangelicals are frightened.

Perhaps; I know a lot of atheists IRL, though, who are not afraid to say so, and I live in one of the most 'conservative' states in the Union. (We also have a decent chunk of agnostics and secular humanists.) In fact, pretty much everyone I've talked to who attended the local Catholic high school is now a committed atheist. Furthermore, atheists here don't have any harder a time, so far as I can tell, than any other non-Mormon in the more, shall we say, religiously oriented part of the state (the south-east), and in the south-west (urban) and northern (anti-social) regions of the state, atheism is respected as much as any other religion.

All of this is only personal experience, of course.
 
 
Mirror
02:05 / 25.03.06
I'm simply boggled by the numbers in that article. Is it really only 3 effing percent of the population who are atheists???

I knew I was in the minority, but I had no idea I was that in the minority.
 
 
matthew.
02:07 / 25.03.06
The entire article. The link is not borked as of this post.

MINNEAPOLIS / ST. PAUL (3/20/2006) -- American’s increasing acceptance of religious diversity doesn’t extend to those who don’t believe in a god, according to a national survey by researchers in the University of Minnesota’s department of sociology.

From a telephone sampling of more than 2,000 households, university researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society.” Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry.

Even though atheists are few in number, not formally organized and relatively hard to publicly identify, they are seen as a threat to the American way of life by a large portion of the American public. “Atheists, who account for about 3 percent of the U.S. population, offer a glaring exception to the rule of increasing social tolerance over the last 30 years,” says Penny Edgell, associate sociology professor and the study’s lead researcher.

Edgell also argues that today’s atheists play the role that Catholics, Jews and communists have played in the past—they offer a symbolic moral boundary to membership in American society. “It seems most Americans believe that diversity is fine, as long as every one shares a common ‘core’ of values that make them trustworthy—and in America, that ‘core’ has historically been religious,” says Edgell. Many of the study’s respondents associated atheism with an array of moral indiscretions ranging from criminal behavior to rampant materialism and cultural elitism.

Edgell believes a fear of moral decline and resulting social disorder is behind the findings. “Americans believe they share more than rules and procedures with their fellow citizens—they share an understanding of right and wrong,” she said. “Our findings seem to rest on a view of atheists as self-interested individuals who are not concerned with the common good.”

The researchers also found acceptance or rejection of atheists is related not only to personal religiosity, but also to one’s exposure to diversity, education and political orientation—with more educated, East and West Coast Americans more accepting of atheists than their Midwestern counterparts.

The study is co-authored by assistant professor Joseph Gerteis and associate professor Doug Hartmann. It’s the first in a series of national studies conducted the American Mosaic Project, a three-year project funded by the Minneapolis-based David Edelstein Family Foundation that looks at race, religion and cultural diversity in the contemporary United States. The study will appear in the April issue of the American Sociological Review.
 
 
Mirror
02:11 / 25.03.06
Wikipedia to the rescue.

Looks like the error bars are significant. Apparently only 0.4% of the population actually declares themselves as "atheist" but something close to 15% in the U.S. specify "No Religion."
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
02:27 / 25.03.06
“It seems most Americans believe that diversity is fine, as long as every one shares a common ‘core’ of values that make them trustworthy—and in America, that ‘core’ has historically been religious,”

I wonder if the survey would have come out differently if they had substituted the word 'humanist' for 'atheist'? Atheist means 'nihilist' to many religious believers, whereas humanism has a morality behind it.
But still, this is a worrying survey- though some group is always going to come out on bottom when something like this is done, and at least it's not Muslims/Jews/Homosexuals or another group that faces real discrimination.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:40 / 25.03.06
Yeah, thank god it's only atheists, right?
 
 
BlueMeanie
09:01 / 25.03.06
Atheists are discriminated against in the US, such as in the Texas Constitution, among other places.
 
 
Ariadne
09:02 / 25.03.06
Wow, is that for real? That's scary.
 
 
BlueMeanie
09:03 / 25.03.06
Yep, it's real. There are few other groups that are explicitly discriminated against by law.

As far as I understand it, there are other states with similar laws.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
10:31 / 25.03.06
From a telephone sampling of more than 2,000 households

Right. Well that seems pretty comprehensive to me - I'd certainly consider myself licensed to talk about 'most Americans' and their 'core moral values' after carrying out this kind of painstaking, in-depth analysis. Which must have taken them years.
 
 
BlueMeanie
10:53 / 25.03.06
Which must have taken them years.

Dog years, maybe.
 
  

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