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Scientific method applied to Temple

 
  

Page: 12(3)4

 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:49 / 13.06.06
Magic is far more concerned with Right Brain activity than Left Brain activity.

I spose so. Sort of. In fact, the Left/Right lateralisation you seem to be basing your post on has been debunked a bit--seems the split isn't nearly as clean or neat as all that.

In magic we occasionally bring the Left brain to bear on our Right brain, but we are largely concerned with DEFEATING THE FUCKER.

Speak for yourself, dude. I love my clinical analytic side just as much as I love my wild impulsive non-rational side. They love each other, too. My magic isn't a space wherein I subjugate one with the other, it's a space where they come together and fucking dance.

Neither is good. Neither is bad. In rationality we find the stereotype of the cold-eyed scientist, waiting to hack up our dreams with a scalpel; we also find solutions to terrible intractable problems, an escape from the dark. In non-rationality we find art, inspiration, joy; we also find fear, hatred, rage, ravening greed.

It already RULES THE FUCKING WORLD...Us included...

Oh, thank you. Thank you for the biggest laugh I've had all week. Seriously? You are telling me that you can look out at the world around us and seriously claim that it is ruled by reason? The world is ruled by greed, hatred and the hunger for power. It's run by people like Bush, ffs! A Bible-thumping religious hegemony is taking over the most powerful nation on Earth, and you blame reason?

I love ya, man, but you are seriously off base here. You need to meet more scientists.
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:52 / 13.06.06
Well, here's a thing : why do scientists refer to the enormous percentage of the human genome which they have absolutely no idea what it's for as "junk"?

The term "junk DNA" doesn't apply to all the unidentified sequences that appear in our DNA. This term refers to those strings which do not appear to code for anything (note "do not appear to"). There are numerous theories as to why these strings exist, it's possible that they are inactive genes or that they are a protective measure that spreads out useful gene sequences and lessens the chance of things like radiation, etc hitting them and causing a mutation.

There mustn't be mysteries. Science is the business, (the business, mind you) of demystification.

Are you suggesting that magic-users don't want to know what's behind it all, that they'd rather sit in the dark and not know how things work? Sounds a little presumptuous to me, and also not accurate if the populous of Temple is anything to go by.

But what do I know? I'm just the running dog of corporate-scientific-eeevil, who prefers to use both sides of his brain rather than become over-reliant on one. If you're not using half of your brain though perhaps you could donate it or something.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
14:38 / 13.06.06
"I wonder if this is true, and ALL scientists do indeed refer to this part of the human genome as 'junk', and that that's indicative of a really BAD attitude on their part - or whether this is a sweeping generalisation intended to smear the scientific approach even as YH$WH's post ends with an attempt to deny this is what he is doing? I'm no Lurid Archive, but even I have a feeling that perhaps science is not so mean and horrid as YH$WH is making out, and I have a suspicion that 30 seconds worth of Googling might demonstrate this."?

Y'know I read this and here's what I thought:

"I wonder if I actually said that? ALL scientists? Or if I just wondered why the sequences which are not understood are referred to - in common parlance, in regular usage, very commonly, typically, even - as "junk", and not, say "mystery" DNA...and that I personally read a lot into this pejorative - 'junk' is, I think you'll agree, quite a dramatic way to refer to a large part of your blueprint because you can't immediately see what it's for - and that this is a fairly common response within the scientific community to the rather vast body of knowledge which falls outside the scope of specific investigations which are always, by necessity, restricted in their remit."

And then I checked...and - phew - I never said anything of the sort! I'm also glad to see those plucky non-evil brainy Science types have -shock!- "decided that junk DNA is not, in fact, junk after all" - emphasis mine. Well - rewrite the journals!! Junk is not junk! Black is the new White! Flyboy for Mayor!

And you know what - I never once referred to, or even implied that science is "evil" or anything of the sort. Nor that it was of no consequence, use, relevance to magic, nor anything else at all. In fact, the whole question of "evil" is not one this thread really deals with, Flybs, so where you're pouring all that in from I can only guess must be an outgrowth of your own junk DNA. Look around the coccyx area, maybe, bit lower. Who knows?

So why isn't it called "mystery" DNA, then, to actually, y'know, address my point? Wot I wrote? In this thread?

As regards the RANT of DOGMA - my JUNK BONE in my ELBOW wrote that. Fucker if you knock it. Tingles like a Spidey Sense. For, like, ages, you know?

I find the whole thread quite turvy von topsy, because, by and large, scientists have no fucking problem whatsoever using so-called-magic in their own approach to problem solving. Why all the fucking hang ups here?


Mordant - I never said it (the World) was ruled by 'reason'. I never really said what I meant by the, admittedly very weak and flawed 'Left/Right' (false) dichotomy, but I said that the Left Brain Rules. Unless we get deep into what attributes I am attributing to it, it's really a moot point, and one I should have left well out of the discussion since, as you point out, it's pretty rubbish, and old and stodgy. Though rubbish old stodgy things apparently, can be decided to be useful at the drop of a lab-coat, given ebough verification and research.

Evil - I also never said I was only using one side of my brain...as far as I can tell, there really isn't much choice in the matter. I'd gladly donate whole swathes of the rather pecualiar and delusional functioning of my own (both halves) to someone, if only I could find a grateful recipient. Who'd want that shit in there, though? I'm finding it hard enough to get rid of it as it is.

But more to the point, and right on point :

YES.
 
 
Ticker
14:46 / 13.06.06
Alchemy & hard science fiction are both great examples of science, imagination, and possibly magic. I say possibly magic because at its core magic is subjective whereas science at its core is objective. Or at least as objective as any human derived undertaking can be.

The Known, the Unknown, and the Unknowable are all available to the inspection of our intellects. Magic, as a way of studying and interacting with reality, has no real issue with the unknown and unknowable staying that way. In a magical experiment the unpredictable elements are acknowledged and certain allowances are made for outright failure due to the Unknowable. Science, as a way of studying and interacting with reality, has an issue with the unknown and unknowable staying that way. For science to be successful the variables need to be understood to such a degree that nothing should over the course of a long enough research project, be Unknowable.

In alchemy the work is undertaken with the goal of transforming both the alchemist and the substance. Only by the transformation of the alchemist's perception and understanding will ze be able to have dialogue with the Unknown. Yet even the alchemist bows to the existence of the Unknowable.

In hard science fiction the work extends beyond the Knowable into the Unknown and often inspires enough readers to reshape their perceptions of reality. How many writers of this stuff have predicted future events with accuracy simply by the study of what is and has been then applying a blazing dollop of imagination?

Parapsychology and other branches of research into unusual phenomenon often do result in reliable results. However even with reliable results one is not guaranteed to find an objective reason for the cause.

I think crop circles are hysterical for this reason. Here's a thing you can go up and prod, sample, measure, stake out, reproduce and decide what made it.
a) human hoaxers
b) alien communication
c) weather events
d) fairies dancing

..and yet people are still going to disagree on the reason for the entire range of the phenomenon.

Or even better in cryptozoology you have the issue of the yeti vs. the big foot.
One maybe a real animal that leaves scat and a has an reasonable habitat while the other seems to be either human hoaxers or a daimonic visitation. Same problem with the Alien Big Cats (ABC's). Could be a zoo escapee, a new species, or something playing dress up.

Magic and Science do not need to be at odds with each other. In fact they started as the same tool of sacred discovery and merely split for the last few hundred years. It is not unreasonable for them to inform each other and to keep the celebration of knowledge and mystery alive.
 
 
SteppersFan
15:12 / 13.06.06
OK, fair enough, M$ didn't say ALL scientists are EVIL ALL the time. But mate, you certainly proposed a very dualist (if not manichaean) perspective on the issue. As Mordant noted, left brain / right brain is pretty out-moded. I thought most infored magical people were past that idea a few years ago (at least, I've got a Hine interview where he pretty much demolishes it). So I think it's fair to say that you've pushed your argument a bit beyond its premises .

Furthermore: Science is the business, (the business, mind you) of demystification. I'm not sure that's quite right. Science is about asking questions about the weird stuff going on around us. It's partly problem solving, and sure, in the late nineteenth century, scientists thought they had most problems licked, unaware that there was a firestorm of mystery about to be unveiled. That's how it's been ever since, certainly in physics, probably zoology, biology... dunno about chemistry.

Out of interest, what is it that really winds you up about this subject?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:38 / 13.06.06
Well, here's a thing : why do scientists refer to the enormous percentage of the human genome which they have absolutely no idea what it's for as "junk"?...So, it's "junk". So what, right? It's just a way of referring to it...perfectly innocent... I think in these little telling innocent moments we can gain some insight into the difference in approach to the phenomenal world.

You're right, of course, in no way was this a generalisation intentended to portray the majority of scientists as pernicious (or whatever the opposite of innocent is). I must be projecting - perhaps I have an imbalance of bile as a result of eating some poisonous foodstuffs (bread, meat, chocolate, dairy) or drinking tap water? I will massage my kidneys in an anti-clockwise direction while standing on my head, and perhaps these angry feelings will subside.
 
 
Unconditional Love
17:39 / 13.06.06
Science to me seems to be an issue of freewill, if anything subscribes to the whole notion of freewill even the right to deny freewill itself, it would be the doctrine of science and other philosophys that seek to impose a purely human view point over a pluralistic conception of creative evolution.

Science can be magic and magic science i dont see a problem my question would be what purpose do these various philosophical schools serve in this context, ie what kind of intelligence is created within the thinkers within these various philosophical schools and to what end is that put to use and misuse.

As to wether it matters, well it depends on how much you believe you have invested in either/or or both and wether you see that investment as a conflict of intrests.
 
 
Evil Scientist
17:49 / 13.06.06
So why isn't it called "mystery" DNA, then, to actually, y'know, address my point? Wot I wrote?

I'll happily address that.

Junk DNA is actually a more accurate term, from a certain point of view. See, as I mentioned upthread, true junk DNA doesn't actually do anything, in the sense of the actual purpose of DNA in the cellular system (ie replication of protein molecules in all their variety). Mystery DNA would suggest that it was active, we just didn't know what the protein it produced was.

Junk DNA is actually more properly called intronic DNA, that would be the actual term that was created to describe it. I would hazard a guess that it was coined in order to simplify things for people who aren't familier with the terminology of molecular biology (y'know, kind of in the way that something like, f'instance, sigils are way of simplifying and introducing magic to people not familier with it).

And then I checked...and - phew - I never said anything of the sort! I'm also glad to see those plucky non-evil brainy Science types have -shock!- "decided that junk DNA is not, in fact, junk after all" - emphasis mine. Well - rewrite the journals!! Junk is not junk! Black is the new White! Flyboy for Mayor!

Can I let you into a little secret here? It may help clarify things for you. Science is in a constant state of discovery. As we refine our methods and techniques and tools we discover new things, and weird things, and discover that the things we thought were true aren't. Science isn't about static dogma (although, like every facet of human society, including magic, people get bogged down in dogma and start thinking their way is the only way), science is about finding out more and more about this big old universe, and doing it in such a way as to let us know that we're not just making it up as we go along.

Science is the business, (the business, mind you) of demystification.

You may not have said "Science bad!" outright, but a line like this certainly implies that you feel that way. Business = money = greed = teh eevil. Forgive me if that was not your intention but it was certainly my interpretation of your words, I'd ask you to explain why you felt it necessary to verbally underline that science is a "business". Cheers.
 
 
SteppersFan
18:11 / 13.06.06
Just a point of information: I believe it is factually incorrect to say that science "is" a business. I did post-grad study into the business aspects of science, and most science isn't funded by business and doesn't have a business intent behind it.

Back on topic: I would echo James "Synesis" Butler's concerns about magicians adopting science as a justification for their work. "I think the idea that magic is just science that we haven’t understood yet has too strong a hold on our discourse at the moment, and usually ends up with people tapping their noses and talking about ‘quantum’ – whereas I’m of the opinion that magicians should be somewhat reticent to leap on current scientific opinion as ‘explaining’ magic, since a number of people did that in Victorian times, and now look a bit foolish talking about animal magnetism and luminiferous ether. Which isn’t to say, of course, that current scientific models can’t be inspiring in the way we look at the world."
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
22:37 / 13.06.06
Flyboy - let us know how it goes. I heartily approve of a bit of self experimentation. It's really the only way to actually know anything, imho. Be rigorous, be scientific, check against your favourite web facts, report to us here. It'll be interesting to see, no? Or does sarcasm and self-satisfaction hit the spot just fine for you? You seem to be very worldly wise, I'd love to hear the tales of how you have arrived at such dismissive certainty of your many areas of expertise.

Evil - I find your definitions a little wonky and simplistic to say the least, particularly your claim about introns and how these are what "junk" DNA 'really refers to', and the reason for "junk" DNA being labelled this way (in a nutshell - 'so thickies who don't study clever subjects can rest easy with colloquial terms they'll understand and not get confused by tetchnickle details which the likes of me can misrepresent here with a wave of the hand much like a magician').

It seems being an Evil Scientist" simply entails listing yourself in the Yellow Pages as one, along with cowboy plumbers and painter-decorators, which could be argued, quite scientifically, to provide a rather apposite demonstration of the point I was making in the first place about the claims of science in it's little non-sequiturs and more innocent moments of claiming to have more possession of Truth than it really does, or possibly can, and how it likes to approach views heretical to it's fundamental assumptions and working methods.

In short, science must often necessarily begin from an investigative viewpoint that deliberately and consciously excludes many if not most variables from an experiment in order to obtain useful, localized and specific data which can be analyzed as if it existed independently of the rest of the Universe.

Magic, on the other hand, often begins from the exact opposite starting position - which is to acknowledge and be sure to include the basic Ground Zero that Everything is One and inextricably connected.

Linear, rational and reason based thinking is a fantastic tool for understanding and ordering some non-thing which, in all probability, is neither linear, rational nor reason based. The limits of logic can be demonstrated to the complete satisfaction of a four year old with a biro and a large enough piece of paper on which to scribble a schoolyard demo of Godel's incompleteness theorem.

Once again I say that science has frequently, and continues to, delve into the mystical and magickal methodologies and processes to obtain information pertinent to it's own ends...I have already said this, before Evil Cowboy Facts deigned to stoop down to my level to patronize about how science is an ongoing process of discovery, and often (after much pain and huffing and wheezing) is forced to radically alter the very fabric of which it has previously been woven, to accomodate all the now impossible to ignore uncomfortable data that previously never fitted either, but was ignored anyway in favour of having something - anything, however wrong, dismissive or pejoratove - to say.

Any good scientist will have as much interest in so-called-magic as any good magician has in the scientific method. But the limits of each approach should be obvious to either. Different. Tools. For. Particular. Ends.
 
 
Evil Scientist
08:56 / 14.06.06
What I said:

I would hazard a guess that it was coined in order to simplify things for people who aren't familier with the terminology of molecular biology

YH$WH interpretation of that sentance:

'so thickies who don't study clever subjects can rest easy with colloquial terms they'll understand and not get confused by tetchnickle details which the likes of me can misrepresent here with a wave of the hand much like a magician'

At no point did I suggest that people without scientific training were in any way inferior or stupid. Hope that clarifies it for you, sorry if you didn't understand.

Thanks for the various links by the way. You should come over to Lab, there was a short-lived discussion on introns, etc which we could re-launch. Non-coding DNA is definitely a better description than junk DNA.

It seems being an Evil Scientist" simply entails listing yourself in the Yellow Pages as one, along with cowboy plumbers and painter-decorators

Y'know I looked in the Yellow Pages and didn't find Evil Scientists or Cowboy Plumbers anywhere in that sucker. Perhaps you have a different copy than mine?

To address the paragraph itself:

It seems being an Evil Scientist" simply entails listing yourself in the Yellow Pages as one, along with cowboy plumbers and painter-decorators, which could be argued, quite scientifically, to provide a rather apposite demonstration of the point I was making in the first place about the claims of science in it's little non-sequiturs and more innocent moments of claiming to have more possession of Truth than it really does, or possibly can, and how it likes to approach views heretical to it's fundamental assumptions and working methods.

You seemed to be making some rather overblown claims about having possession of the Right-Brained Truth of the Universe yourself upthread a little. Could you explain to me why your comments are the definitive truth (or at least why they're more reliable than current scientific opinion)? If they're not then I have to say I find it a little odd that you would criticise science for being flexible.

Once again I say that science has frequently, and continues to, delve into the mystical and magickal methodologies and processes to obtain information pertinent to it's own ends...I have already said this, before Evil Cowboy Facts deigned to stoop down to my level to patronize about how science is an ongoing process of discovery, and often (after much pain and huffing and wheezing) is forced to radically alter the very fabric of which it has previously been woven, to accomodate all the now impossible to ignore uncomfortable data that previously never fitted either, but was ignored anyway in favour of having something - anything, however wrong, dismissive or pejoratove - to say.

I would suggest that your initial comments came across as extremely patronising as well, so I don't think you really have a strong position to criticise me from. You will also note that I have not changed your ficsuit name in a "hiiiiilariously" witty attempt at a put-down. You're surely better than that aren't you?

Now; the "pain, huffing, and wheezing" comment.

It often does take a lot of time in science for a new theory to be accepted. But it is not quite, as you seem to be suggesting, a tortuous path whereby the establishment desperately try to stamp out any contrary thought (although it can certainly look like that). It can be quite frustrating too. But rushing to embrace an unproven theory and then finding it to be utter tosh can be quite frustrating as well (as SteppersFan's quote shows).

Any new theory should be rigourously tested before it can be accepted. I think this is where magic is more religion than science as it does seem to emphasise accepting things on pure faith much more so than bog-standard humanist, reductive scientific thought would. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that YH$WH (and, indeed, everyone else as well).
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
09:24 / 14.06.06
Steppers - could you share the data that lead to your conclusions that most science is not funded by business nor with business intent behind it? That sounds really interesting.

Fly - 'pernicious', 'evil'...where do you pull it all from?

All sorts of highly qualified and reasonable scientists think all sorts of weird and wonderful things, but there is, perhaps more than in any other discipline, a hegemony which insinuates itself as "fact", and the term 'junk' DNA is, to my mind, a really good example of one.

You seem to be arguing from a position that it is unreasonable of me to suggest that 'science', as a general discipline, contains the widely used term "junk" DNA, that this term is not in frequent and widely disseminated usage, that it is unfair and unreasonable of me to use it as an example of - now pay attention - the 'myopia' which is necessary in approaching a study of phenomena using the scientific methodology. 'Myopia' is not the right word, but I'm trying only to point out that science is often the becessary removal of 99% of reality in order to study the remaining 1% with great discernment...and that this limits its usefulness in an effective study of so-called magic.

No mention of evil, no knee-jerk response required, I am not in any way diminishing or attempting to rubbish the incredible contributions scientific method has brought to our understanding of the Universe. However, as has been adequately demonstrated by Robin, Batman, it's really important to remember the most thing :

KEEP THE BABY.

Hmm?

Throw out the bathwater, but keep the baby. That's vital.

Evil Cyberman's response is floundering and pathetic. It's a TOTAL MISNOMER to call it "junk"...far greater minds than yours are happy to admit this, but here you are defending it : why?

Look:

Junk DNA is actually a more accurate term, from a certain point of view. See, as I mentioned upthread, true junk DNA doesn't actually do anything, in the sense of the actual purpose of DNA in the cellular system (ie replication of protein molecules in all their variety). Mystery DNA would suggest that it was active, we just didn't know what the protein it produced was.

Well, you certainly know your stuff.

Junk DNA is actually more properly called intronic DNA, that would be the actual term that was created to describe it.

Not true. Presented as fact. 'Actually' blah fish warrah paste. But fiction. Is this the 'Evil' part of your suit? You speak with authority as a scientist and, er, deliberately mislead to justify your previous claims to truth? That is kind of 'evil', and 'pernicious'.

I would hazard a guess that it was coined in order to simplify things for people who aren't familier with the terminology of molecular biology (y'know, kind of in the way that something like, f'instance, sigils are way of simplifying and introducing magic to people not familier with it).

Yeah, great example. You should teach.

Followed shortly after by:

Can I let you into a little secret here? It may help clarify things for you. Science is in a constant state of discovery. As we refine our methods and techniques and tools we discover new things, and weird things, and discover that the things we thought were true aren't.

So which is it, Billy Hot Rod? Either it's a 'more accurate term' coined to help out the thickies, or a misnomer which turns out and is constantly turning out more and more not to be true. I have to say, to have done such a radical about face in such a short space of thread, and to have done it with such toe-curling arrogance and patronising posturing really throws your Science isn't about static dogma (although, like every facet of human society, including magic, people get bogged down in dogma and start thinking their way is the only way), science is about finding out more and more about this big old universe, and doing it in such a way as to let us know that we're not just making it up as we go along. into a beautiful and pastel coloured light. Bravo.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:34 / 14.06.06
M$, I'm still having a very hard time grasping what you're actually talking about here. It looks to me like people are trying to engage with you, and you seem to be getting more confrontational with every post. I'm not even sure what you mean by "science" in this context, but I'm pretty certain it's not what I mean. Care to give us an outline?
 
 
Quantum
09:34 / 14.06.06
Wow, there's a lot of generalisations flying round about science and magic.
$chtick, you said I often find people give more of themselves away in perfectly innocent little non-sequiturs than in detailed curriculum vitae or self identifications... then you later said Magic is far more concerned with Right Brain activity than Left Brain activity. In magic we occasionally bring the Left brain to bear on our Right brain, but we are largely concerned with DEFEATING THE FUCKER.
Can you see why people might be reading your position as anti-science? You sound like you're saying magic=intuitive-right-brain=good, science=rational-left-brain=bad. What about fore- and hind-brain? I think a four-part understanding of the brain might be of benefit, you could categorise it as the four elements perhaps. Maybe Swords/Air is the left brain you're talking about, and Cups/Water is the right, perhaps include Earth & Fire in your system, and maybe even a fifth element. Even further you could apply a four-mode understanding of the relation between science and magic by adding religion and art (thank you Ramsey Dukes). This whole polar opposition thing you're espousing is a bit... simplistic.
Hope you don't think this is sarcastic or patronising, but you're coming off as a rather naive anti-scientist.

offtopic- usually ends up with people tapping their noses and talking about ‘quantum’ hahahah...
 
 
Quantum
09:50 / 14.06.06
Evil Cyberman's response is floundering and pathetic.

No, I thought it was a calm and reasonable response to your increasingly vitriolic and incomprehensible posting. Are you angry about something? What?
 
 
illmatic
10:07 / 14.06.06
I'm not even sure what you mean by "science" in this context, but I'm pretty certain it's not what I mean.

I think an interesting thingumyjig to add to the discussion here might to ask what we mean be science. I think at least two different process are being invoked here - there’s science = scientific method – peer review, double blind testing, rigourous and repeatable methodologies etc – leading to a “canon” of currently accepted knowledge, ideally subject to revision, and then there’s science = cultural product, something produced by and thereby subject to, the biases of our culture – one doesn’t have to look far for various debates around this.

I have on occasion found it frustrating talking to scientists (or rather the scientifically minded) who refuse to acknowledge the power of the latter to influence their activities while invoking the superiority of the former as the a route to knowledge. That aside - and bearing in mind I don't even know what "it" is - I don't think it's profitable seeing science as the enemy.
 
 
sn00p
10:09 / 14.06.06
You can’t compare science and magic, it’s like comparing a pencil to jazz music.

If you gave a toaster to a cave man, it would seem pretty mystical. No one would know what it was or how it worked untill eventually some clever mystical thinking would be applied. Then a myth could be built up, something about lightening gods summoning fires from beyond reality to cook toast. A ritual would be formed from the logic “When you do certain thing’s, certain things happen”, like plugging the toaster in when the sun is highest in the sky, keeping it away from water gods, leaving an offering of a virgin, pressing the button and putting bread in.
You would have a working model for the toaster, and a working method, and all would be fine.

But if you amplified that logic and rationality, you could find out how it worked, then you could build more, find out what parts of the ritual are necessary, invent new thing’s from the same technology.

Everything is science, and you can’t escape the fact that magic exists, they’re both intrinsic parts of human life.

All scientific phenomena seems mystical at some point, and the lesser researched parts such as magic, still seem mystical to many people, and alot of people like that, but it’s really time to let go, the world isn't anything like it used to be and we need new more relative ideas.

Magic is just the new toaster.
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:26 / 14.06.06
So which is it, Billy Hot Rod? Either it's a 'more accurate term' coined to help out the thickies, or a misnomer which turns out and is constantly turning out more and more not to be true.

I'll answer for Billy shall I?

Well, as I said in my previous post (which you seem to have ignored) simplification of scientific terminology is not done because people are "thick".

Now, with regards to use of the term "more accurate". I thought it was quite clear in the paragraph that I was suggesting that junk DNA is a more accurate term than the term mystery DNA (which you suggested). You asked why it couldn't be called that, I provided a possible reason.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:36 / 14.06.06
I think comparisoms of science and magic are in danger of veering off topic a little. The thread is about applying the scientific method to Temple-type activities, which is different. Using the techniques I use in magic, I am unlikely to be able to tell you if drug X is a safe and effective treatment for condition Y; I cannot demonstrate, using magic, a correlation between smoking and lung disease, say. However, I can apply some of the techniques I learned from studying a hard science to my magical work. I can keep detailed records, I can approach the work from an objective perspective, I can analyse variables, etc.

Yeah, sometimes you have to take a bit of a leap of faith, try something when you've got no idea if it'll work or not, but afterwards you should be able to evaluate the work you've done and the results you've obtained, suss out if you were on the money or mistaken.
 
 
Unconditional Love
10:37 / 14.06.06
No everything is not science, and that is a large part of the problem, science is not the measuring stick for everything nor is the scientific method, applying the logic that science is thee measuring stick is just as much a fascistic thought structuring as some christians are capable of or for that matter any other fundametalists of any given philosophy, no matter what that philosophy.

This idea that science is the only measuring stick can give rise to a huge amount of frustration on the part of people whose lives include experience which just doesnt warrant a scientific understanding to grasp, but do warrant living the way those people live and being those people and there experiences. So rather than quantifying and then qualifying those peoples experiences as if others can sit in judgement of others, it is easier to allow people to live as they wish to according to a common justice.

Increasingly everybody wants to know why such and such does such and why, to reduce everything to the question why? can be a problem in itself because it comes from the presupposition that everything has an explanation that can be quantified by human beings, this isnt true to my own experience or that of others. To then have a philosophy imply that your experience is not so can be hugely offensive and intolerent of difference on the part of that philosophy or set of philosophies.

For example i encounter a disbelief or denial of god quite frequently, i find this helps > to deny god is to first recognise that there is a god to deny, a denial of god is a belief in god that somone is attempting to deny. The very act of denial or dismissal points to the thing being denied. If there were no god there would be no discussion of this matter at all.

Each denial of god is a focus of attention on the qualities of god.

But back to the topic at hand, science is useful if your magical structure is science based in anyway, is science useful to validate prayer, perhaps to a scientist, but not to me.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:55 / 14.06.06
The very act of denial or dismissal points to the thing being denied. If there were no god there would be no discussion of this matter at all.

I deny that there's a big sackful of money in my laundry basket...!

Darrrrn.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:57 / 14.06.06
Money Shot, calm the Hell down. You are pioneering as a form of discourse the mad hominem, and I don't think it's working out very well.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
12:25 / 14.06.06
True, mate. Timely and sagely.

Sorry about that, folks, normal service will be resumed forthwith. Ignore my ranting nonsense as best you can. Nothing to see hear (sic). Please continue.

mad hominem. Love it.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:00 / 14.06.06
Granted mordant it doesnt work when discussing maetrial phenomena from a materialist view point, but when talking about any value or experience that is not soley grounded in physicality, ie trust, norse gods, good, evil, beauty, emotions, conscious abstractions etc

It stands that to deny these things is to recognise there exsistence.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:07 / 14.06.06
I deny that I have psychic mind control powers with which I can make anyone have the sex with me.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:21 / 14.06.06
Okay, let me put it another way, Wolfangel - why?

Why does denying something recognise its existence?
 
 
Quantum
14:46 / 14.06.06
Conversely, if I recognise Flyboy will he cease to exist?
 
 
Doc Checkmate
14:51 / 14.06.06
Just a shot in the dark... maybe he's saying that refuting a concept must necessarily involve identifying it AS a concept. By saying "X" does not exist, you're acknowledging that it's possible to conceive of a set of characteristics which exist together under the collective label of "X."

But I'm not sure what that really proves, other than that we can create a concept for anything. And I'm not even sure that I agree with that. For instance, if I say "free will" doesn't exist, I don't mean: it's a valid concept, but it just isn't the way this universe works. I mean: if you examine what you mean by "free will," you'll either see that you don't actually mean anything or realize that you don't quite know what you mean. Whether I'm right or wrong about that, I'm not acknowledging the existence of the concept "free will" by refuting it; I'm claiming that it's a conceptual slip knot which can't exist even as an idea. So denial of a concept isn't always a sort of backhanded affirmation of it... maybe. I dunno.

P.S. I actually have no idea about free will. Just an example.
 
 
grant
15:17 / 14.06.06
God, Flyboy, I've never realized how handsome you are....
 
 
sn00p
18:14 / 14.06.06
For example i encounter a disbelief or denial of unicorns quite frequently, i find this helps > to deny the unicorn is to first recognise that there is a unicorn to deny, a denial of unicorn is a belief in a unicorn that somone is attempting to deny. The very act of denial or dismissal points to the thing being denied. If there were no unuicorn there would be no discussion of this matter at all.
 
 
Quantum
19:00 / 14.06.06
There is no spoon. I mean, unicorn.
 
 
sn00p
19:42 / 14.06.06
If there is no spoon what are we even talking about?
 
 
Unconditional Love
00:13 / 15.06.06
can we use faith? should we use faith? does it even matter?
 
 
Unconditional Love
00:21 / 15.06.06
can you talk about non exsistent free will or are you talking about the idea and meaning of free will when you refute free will?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
00:31 / 15.06.06
More importantly, how do I eat this soup?
 
  

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