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Scientific method applied to Temple

 
  

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Unconditional Love
00:33 / 15.06.06
when i recognise a concept i bring that concept into exsistence, to refute a concept i must first understand what that concept means to deny it effectively and intelligently, ie it helps to know alot of the various conceptions of god to deny god in an effective manner.

Since there is more recorded knowledge about god from various cultures it is easier to study the idea of god and gain a good grounding in how to deny god, but it involves first coming to gain a knowledge of god and what god means before god can be effectively denied or affirmed.

If others agree with your denial or affirmation this process becomes easier, reinforcing your denial or affirmation. Either way you and others concieve of an entity called god which you may affirm or deny or have no fixed opinion about.
 
 
Doc Checkmate
00:35 / 15.06.06
So... what kind of soup?

OH SNAP TRICK QUESTION! There is no soup.
 
 
Evil Scientist
06:22 / 15.06.06
Wolfangell888, I think what people are trying to point out is that whilst you cannot deny the existence of something as a concept, it does not automatically follow that existence as a concept means existence as an object/entity autonomous from the concept itself.

Does that make sense? Even to me?
 
 
Unconditional Love
08:42 / 15.06.06
To have a concept of self, i must concieve of a self to communicate, it is the conception of a conscious self that allows me to communicate. I must first create a conceptual self to allow self identification with those concepts and then bring into being those conceptual qualities that i desire to be, so i must give concepts objective exsistence within me in order to bring them into being and communicate about them. Objects at least have a subjective exsistence within that context as does self, what is the essence of self?
 
 
Unconditional Love
09:00 / 15.06.06
So lets take numbers for example, i would suggest that they are conscious abstractions that have a relationship to objective reality, do numbers actually have an essence? perhaps. Or perhaps they are defined by there relationship to objective reality ie how these concepts interact with the sensory world and what they are capable of creating within that sensory world.

One could argue that spiritual entities are defined in the same way, by the relationships they form with humanity and the environment around them to create noticable effects.

One system deals with conceptual personifications (spirtual) and the other with a person conceptualising, each needs the person and cognition and then a human social environment to be given exsistence.

Both systems rely on the same variables and relational factors. Both are heavily dependent on human beings accepting and having some degree of faith that said concepts exsist and can interact with the environment around them.
 
 
johnny enigma
09:10 / 15.06.06
Can we use science?
Yes, if we deem it neccessary. We can use whatever we want to.
Should we use science?
Again, yes, if we deem it neccessary. Personally, I have very little urge to use science in my magic because I have little interest in science generally. However, I see no reason why a scientist shouldn't involve scientific method or theory in his practises.
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:01 / 24.08.06
Mysticism should not seek to be "proven" by science. As someone noted upstream, it's a matter of gnosis - of the personal relation and communion with creation. These are subjective experiences around which we wrap meaning and myth. Trying to prove the virgin birth or Moses' reception of the 10 Commandments completely misses the symbolic content of these myths.

Magick also suffers from this modern affliction of having to prove everything with science in order for it to be real & valid. Science & Religion are complementary, not oppositional. Crowley was looking for reproducible methods to attain gnostic states, as well as trying to map the astral territory of shared myths. He wasn't looking to reduce those experiences to materialistic and mechanistic phenomena.


The above quote comes from a post by LVX23 on the God is Imaginary thread. I'd like to talk about it, but felt I'd be rotting that thread to do so. Hence bumping this'n.

LVX23, could you expand on what you mean when you say that science and religion are complementary please? In what way do they complement one another? Why can't science and magic complement each other in a similar way?

In my experience religion and science are not always compatible. One only has to look at the ongoing dispute over evolution to see that it is not a smooth relationship. Like magic, religion is based purely on faith (quick disclaimer, not to suggest that the religious/magical experience is therefore invalid just that it doesn't necessarily need to be proven to be considered real). It is a very different thing to science where (nod to xk here) people will take, for instance, the information that water is composed of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen on faith but could (if they felt so disposed) actually demonstrate the truth of it to themselves and others.
 
 
grant
14:42 / 24.08.06
Is social work science? I mean, I've read lots of journal articles and studies that deal with things like levels of happiness and self-efficacy and attempt to make them quantifiable.

Can happiness be scientifically demonstrated? It's a fairly abstract & subjective concept....

These aren't rhetorical questions.
 
 
LVX23
16:14 / 24.08.06
To put it simply (and very reductively), science offers mechanism and religion offers meaning. Magick offers a mechanism for attaining meaning and a notion that the mechanism can itself be influenced.

Science can explain that chanting and breathwork harmonize brain waves and modulate biochemical metabolism to induce a sense of well-being and interconnectedness. Religion offers templates to contextualize the experience of the individual and suggests that it shows the radiant effulgence of God/the illusory nature of reality/the vision of angels/etc... We need meaning for our narrative.

If I have a temporal lobe seizure and witness the fiery visage of Metatron, then go on to found a massively compelling mythology that preaches compassion and community (or hatred and warfare), does it really matter whether or not I actually saw an angel? Do we need science to prove that angels do or do not exist? In this case it's the message that has the greatest impact, not the source or mechanism by which it was attained.

Similarly, if I'm crunching through non-linear equations representing the dynamic flux of mink populations and suddenly behold that all dynamic systems would tend to cycle around stable attractors, I might understand the miracle of order that moves beneath the surface of so much seeming chaos. This realization might make me feel better about the chaos in my own life. Is this a scientific or religious apprehension? Typically, great science is attended by great mystical insight.

Magick and science can certainly be complimentary, though my own definition of what magick is seems to be growing more and more subtle and amorphous. (this whole discussion is frought with semantic difficulties, of course). And I would certainly agree that science and religion are not always compatible but I'd argue that this is more a result of inflexible logics in human reasoning rather than something innate in these two paths.
 
 
Ticker
13:19 / 25.08.06
In my experience religion and science are not always compatible. One only has to look at the ongoing dispute over evolution to see that it is not a smooth relationship. Like magic, religion is based purely on faith (quick disclaimer, not to suggest that the religious/magical experience is therefore invalid just that it doesn't necessarily need to be proven to be considered real). It is a very different thing to science where (nod to xk here) people will take, for instance, the information that water is composed of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen on faith but could (if they felt so disposed) actually demonstrate the truth of it to themselves and others.

Er...

My religion has no problem with evolution. I personally believe the process of evolution may not be completely explained by Darwin's Theory but that said I'm pretty damn sure if we have another big chuck of time to work on the problem new scientific theories will fill in the holes.

Ummm..
Again my religion is not purely based on faith. Part of my religious awe is in the appreciation of how the universe functions. If I view the growth of a tree from a purely scientific view point I'm still moved to a religious experience of appreciation for that process.

Further it is my opinion that as science progresses it will afford us with more tools. These tools then in turn with give us the means to understand our reality more fully and I suspect we can in time find a union of science and religion as shared (think alchemy) system of informed spiritual awe in mechanical proccesses.

For example:

people will take, for instance, the information that water is composed of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen on faith but could (if they felt so disposed) actually demonstrate the truth of it to themselves and others.

I'm a-thinking it is not unreasonable to put forth the idea that if our technology and culture continue we may develop the tools to better understand what exactly does happen when a person dies, or for that matter how consciousness really does operate.
Need a tool to see that water is H2O, maybe we just need a new tool to see other things.

In rereading this I realized I may need to trot out a perspective shift.

For myself paganism views Nature (which includes natural processes as described by science) as a manifestation of the Divine as opposed to simply the creation of the Divine.

...and yes I do in fact know a good number of pagan Christians for the above reason.
 
 
EvskiG
15:11 / 25.08.06
I wonder how the people in this conversation are defining some of the key terms.

Seems to me that

"Religion" can mean either (i) belief in and reverence for a supernatural power (or powers) regarded as creator(s) and/or governor(s) of the universe, or (ii) a personal or institutionalized system grounded in belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator(s) and governor(s) of the universe.

"Faith," on the other hand, means belief that does not rely on logical proof or material evidence. In fact, I'd argue that it means belief that CANNOT be proven by logical proof or material evidence -- such as belief in the divinity of Jesus or the inherent benevolence of the universe. (This distinguishes it from, say, the personally untested belief that water is composed of hydrogen and oxygen.)

(Clearly, much -- but perhaps not all -- religious belief relies on faith. Some believe that because faith does not require proof, faith in certain religious dogma can be particularly dangerous or problematic, as when people kill each other based on conflicting beliefs over an inherently unprovable subject. But that's a discussion for another topic.)

"Science," on the third hand, means the systematic observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena. It's generally conducted through the "scientific method," which involves coming up with hypotheses to explain phenomena, then designing experiments that test these predictions for accuracy, then repeating as necessary to increase accuracy and predictive capability.

And finally, "magic(k)," on the fourth of Shiva's hands, can be defined as "the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with will." Lots of people like to add qualifiers to this, such as clarifying that the changes at issue are "in consciousness," or by adding the phrase "through means not yet understood by conventional science," etc.

Do people agree with these definitions?
 
 
Ticker
19:32 / 25.08.06
I'm with ya on a few points but I don't see faith as being only in the abscence of rational proof.

such as I have faith the sun will rise tomorrow partly based on scientific reasons, but crap, it doesn't have to now does it? So partly I have evidence that the factors which cause the sun to rise are still in effect to form the predicted outcome but I'm still putting faith in that outcome.

I'm also thinking that some religions may not hold with supernatural powers. For example I have seen people embrace Science as a religion replete with fundie fury rather than truly scientific objectiveness.
 
 
EvskiG
21:34 / 05.03.07
Interesting article in the NY Times Magazine about the science of religious belief.

A sample:

Hardships of early human life favored the evolution of certain cognitive tools, among them the ability to infer the presence of organisms that might do harm, to come up with causal narratives for natural events and to recognize that other people have minds of their own with their own beliefs, desires and intentions. Psychologists call these tools, respectively, agent detection, causal reasoning and theory of mind.

Agent detection evolved because assuming the presence of an agent — which is jargon for any creature with volitional, independent behavior — is more adaptive than assuming its absence. If you are a caveman on the savannah, you are better off presuming that the motion you detect out of the corner of your eye is an agent and something to run from, even if you are wrong. If it turns out to have been just the rustling of leaves, you are still alive; if what you took to be leaves rustling was really a hyena about to pounce, you are dead.

So if there is motion just out of our line of sight, we presume it is caused by an agent, an animal or person with the ability to move independently. This usually operates in one direction only; lots of people mistake a rock for a bear, but almost no one mistakes a bear for a rock.

What does this mean for belief in the supernatural? It means our brains are primed for it, ready to presume the presence of agents even when such presence confounds logic. "The most central concepts in religions are related to agents," Justin Barrett, a psychologist, wrote in his 2004 summary of the byproduct theory, "Why Would Anyone Believe in God?" Religious agents are often supernatural, he wrote, "people with superpowers, statues that can answer requests or disembodied minds that can act on us and the world."

A second mental module that primes us for religion is causal reasoning. The human brain has evolved the capacity to impose a narrative, complete with chronology and cause-and-effect logic, on whatever it encounters, no matter how apparently random. "We automatically, and often unconsciously, look for an explanation of why things happen to us," Barrett wrote, "and 'stuff just happens' is no explanation. Gods, by virtue of their strange physical properties and their mysterious superpowers, make fine candidates for causes of many of these unusual events." The ancient Greeks believed thunder was the sound of Zeus's thunderbolt. Similarly, a contemporary woman whose cancer treatment works despite 10-to-1 odds might look for a story to explain her survival. It fits better with her causal-reasoning tool for her recovery to be a miracle, or a reward for prayer, than for it to be just a lucky roll of the dice.

A third cognitive trick is a kind of social intuition known as theory of mind. It's an odd phrase for something so automatic, since the word "theory" suggests formality and self-consciousness. Other terms have been used for the same concept, like intentional stance and social cognition. One good alternative is the term Atran uses: folkpsychology.

Folkpsychology, as Atran and his colleagues see it, is essential to getting along in the contemporary world, just as it has been since prehistoric times. It allows us to anticipate the actions of others and to lead others to believe what we want them to believe; it is at the heart of everything from marriage to office politics to poker. People without this trait, like those with severe autism, are impaired, unable to imagine themselves in other people's heads.

The process begins with positing the existence of minds, our own and others', that we cannot see or feel. This leaves us open, almost instinctively, to belief in the separation of the body (the visible) and the mind (the invisible). If you can posit minds in other people that you cannot verify empirically, suggests Paul Bloom, a psychologist and the author of "Descartes' Baby," published in 2004, it is a short step to positing minds that do not have to be anchored to a body. And from there, he said, it is another short step to positing an immaterial soul and a transcendent God.
 
  

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