BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Self Sacrifice for the Sake of the Environment

 
  

Page: (1)2

 
 
Saveloy
09:00 / 14.03.06
Have you ever given up something that you loved or enjoyed because it was environmentally friendly to do so?

Have you, for example, given up driving, even though it almost killed you to do it? Or denied yourself a much wanted holiday abroad? Or promised never to fly again, even though travelling is in your blood?

Do you know anyone else who has?

Me? Nope, not a thing. And I don't believe that anyone else has, either, or ever will.

So - prove me wrong! Alternatively, discuss around the general subject.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:04 / 14.03.06
Beef, for starters.
 
 
Ariadne
09:09 / 14.03.06
I have to travel a lot for work, and I do take the train instead of flying, where I can. But I have to admit I prefer the train, so it's not a hard choice.

Emmmm - does being vegan count? And I don't have a car, partly for environmental reasons. And I cart glass bottles half way across town to recycle them when I'd rather chuck them in the bin and then lie on the couch with a cup of tea. And I turn down plastic forks with my baked tattie and use a real, washable one!

But I do take your point - it's very hard to make sacrifices when there are lots of cheap flights and nice things around, and I don't do it often enough.
 
 
trouble at bill
09:56 / 14.03.06
Earth first, I say. We'll fuck up all the other planets later.

Uh, in all seriousness I think that many, many eco-protestors have made huge sacrifices for the environment, like, y'know, prison and stuff. Perhaps they're naive, but they have my respect for their strength of feeling if nothing else.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:10 / 14.03.06
I think what he meant, Bilious, was have you personally stopped doing something you really enjoy for environmental reasons.
 
 
Cat Chant
10:10 / 14.03.06
I go from Bristol to Edinburgh by train (5 hours if no engineering works) rather than fly (40 minutes).

I don't have a CD player in my house (okay, other than my computer and my Discman) because I can't find a second-hand one.

I spent £80 on a second-hand DVD player rather than £20 on a new one. Similarly, I spent £80 repairing my nearly-antique TV rather than replacing it with a new one. A couple of thousand quid putting an energy-efficient boiler into a house I was about to sell.

Frequent little sacrifices of money and time (no prison for me). None of which, I'm sure, balance out the fact that I fly from the UK to Australia and back every year or two. Gah.
 
 
Loomis
10:20 / 14.03.06
I'm sure lots of us do lots of little things, like lugging bottles to recycling or maybe going out of your way to a shop where you can buy veg that isn't wrapped in ten layers of plastic.

I originally went vegan for environmental reasons but even if they were no longer a concern I would still choose to be so for animal rights/welfare reasons.

When travelling within the UK I get the train rather than fly, but like Ariadne, I prefer the train anyway. And I've taken less trips to Europe than I otherwise would because of flying guilt, though I haven't stopped going altogether. It's also part of the reason why I've only returned home to Sydney once in five years of living in the UK, but only a part. If I really wanted to go then I'd get over the guilt I suppose.
 
 
elene
10:32 / 14.03.06
I've never owned a driving licence because I'm against cars except when they are necessary. I'm learning at the moment (to drive - I'm 47 mind you) and of course I'd no idea how much fun it is 'till I learned. Nevertheless I don't intend to own one. I eat a lot less meat than I used to. I own a laptop, but no TV, VCR or DVD, and no dishwasher or any of several other devices I might own either. I heat as little as possible, which can lead to some discomfort in a German winter. I try not waste water, but neither that nor washing at 30 when possible inconveniences me in any way. I've protested and donated quite a lot, but certainly less so than for human rights and 3rd world aid and AIDS groups, and again it didn't hurt. Same for recycling.

I'm flying to London in a week though, and really I oughtn't.
 
 
sleazenation
10:34 / 14.03.06
Travel to and from Australia is a bit problematic because of the viast distances involved and the lack of commercial alternative to flying. I am unaware of many sheduled shipping routes taking passengers to Oz outside of a few cruise ships, and even if there were such beasts they would take a prohibitive amount of time to get there...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:16 / 14.03.06
This thread is full of examples of people doing things for the sake of the environment. Do none of them count as self-sacrifice? That's a genuine question, rather than a snark... maybe one could make the case that none of them do.

I suppose the question is, what does constitute self-sacrifice? Can it be going out of your a little and making the extra bit of effort that other people aren't, or does it have to be a grand gesture that deprives you of something you want? I am aware that it would be easy to laud ourselves excessively for taking baby steps, but I also think it's also pretty easy to err in the other direction...
 
 
Saveloy
11:29 / 14.03.06
Haus:

"Beef, for starters."

[denying myself the opportunity to make obvious gag about 'starters']

Ah, that's a good one. What is the - ahem - beef with beef, specifically? I understand the argument about innefficient use of land compared to arable; are there other environmental costs as well? And is cattle rearing worse than pig rearing, or chickens?

Ariadne:

"Emmmm - does being vegan count?"

It does (for the purposes of this thread) if you really loved meat, eggs and dairy.

Deva:

"I don't have a CD player in my house (okay, other than my computer and my Discman) because I can't find a second-hand one."

That's another good example. Hmmm. Though I don't know if it's exactly what I'm after, because you do have the hope of finding one eventually. I guess you're seeing it as a temporary sacrifice, yeah?

Loomis:

"I originally went vegan for environmental reasons but even if they were no longer a concern I would still choose to be so for animal rights/welfare reasons."

Was it painful to do so? Did you suffer from cravings; dreams of bacon sarnies, etc?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:32 / 14.03.06
Well quite- I mean, I'm a vegetarian (which is for animal rights reasons, though for me the two are part of the same thing) and I try to recycle where possible- but I'm not sure I'd say it's much of a sacrifice. The most pro-active I've been was probably spending a few weekends on-site at the Newbury Bypass protests (mostly just taking up supplies and cooking equipment and stuff), which could be seen as sacrificing my time, except that it was really a lot of fun. So I'm not sure.

(There was that time I killed all those people to make it rain, of course, and damned myself for all eternity, but, y'know...)
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:32 / 14.03.06
I don't own and intend never to own a car: they're pointless in the city, you only enjoy the country by walking in it, and it would probably only get broken into or nicked anyway.

I never buy anything from McDonalds, haven't done for about six years- don't like their food, really don't like their practices. They cut down too many of the wrong trees.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:33 / 14.03.06
(The "well quite" part was in response to Flybs, btw).
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:38 / 14.03.06
PS the point of my post being that really I don't miss the things I boycott, so need to try harder.
 
 
Saveloy
11:54 / 14.03.06
Flyboy:

"I am aware that it would be easy to laud ourselves excessively for taking baby steps, but I also think it's also pretty easy to err in the other direction.."

Oh, totally. I ought to make it clear that this thread is not meant to belittle the excellent stuff that people are doing, or to induce guilt for what they aren't doing.
 
 
Persephone
12:33 / 14.03.06
Genuine question: So it's definitely more environmentally sound to take the train rather than fly? What about driving vs. flying?

I got a flyer on the street from a group that was promoting a 31-day electricity strike in support of the Iraqi people, who pretty much constantly suffer from power outages. I just know that I'm never going to do it. I'm not sure that I could get through ONE day without electricity...
 
 
Brunner
12:43 / 14.03.06
It's definately a mindset thing isn't it?

Many people just don't care about anything outside of there own sphere of influence so cannot conceive of giving up anything or adapting their behaviour for a cause. Other people will always weigh up the pros and cons and then convince themselves that a 4 wheel drive wank-mobile in the middle of London is essential for the immediate safety of their offspring on the 0.5 mile school run and is therefore more important than the quality of the future environment said offspring will inhabit (and anyway, it might never happen anyway). And others, possibly a majority (in the UK anyway) will bother to find something they can do if the cause is something they care about no matter how small.

I'm in this last group - I recycle as much as possible, I buy ecologically friendly cleaning products and and as much in the way of organic and fair trade produce, I give (small) amounts of money to several charities. The only meat I eat is fish and usually it's MSC approved. However, I own a car (less than 2,500 miles last year) and haven't made that much effort not to travel by plane (mother in New Zealand wouldn't understand). I definately need to do more....none of what I do do is a real sacrifice.
 
 
Persephone
12:44 / 14.03.06
I do give blood, though. And I've discovered that really, really hate giving blood. And I have to say that the day the nurse sticks that needle through my vein, I think I'm finished...
 
 
Loomis
13:00 / 14.03.06
I can't say anything I do is a major sacrifice, though they can be inconvenient. But I see where you're coming from saveloy.

As well as the notion that people might only abstain from things if they were already inclined to do so, there's also the old argument about whether people only do good things because it makes them feel good so even when they make sacrifices they're actually getting pleasure from doing it.
 
 
Ariadne
13:06 / 14.03.06
Persephone - interesting question. I always thought that rail was better, but didn't really know why. This report, produced for the Commission for Integrated Transport, concludes that "high speed rail has much lower greenhouse gas emissions than domestic aircraft for regional journeys. For other atmospheric pollutants, it is difficult to conclude if [either has an] advantage because of the different emmissions of different pollutants."

So, it looks like it's a bit better, anyway. I've no idea how driving would compare.
 
 
julius has no imagination
14:41 / 14.03.06
Ariadne: I'm not sure where to look for comparisons, but I think driving is worse than pretty much any other form of transport except perhaps flying, as far as pollution goes. Of course, having the car packed with people helps a lot, but even at its best it's still rather inefficient.

Now, trains are of course hugely varied - I suspect there's quite a difference in pollution between a high-speed intercity and a single-carriage local train, new and old, diesel and electric, etc. In general, my housemate claims buses are more efficient than trains, but I'd suspect they'll be in the same league. And electric trains *could* be pollution-free if the power comes from renewable sources, obviously.
 
 
Mirror
14:47 / 14.03.06
I don't know if I sacrifice anything specifically for the environment, except perhaps for personal comfort. I cycle to work every day, regardless of the weather (I live in Colorado in the U.S., which means that in the winter there are usually a couple of weeks during the winter where I'm biking through the snow at temperatures at or below 0F.)

That being said, it's hard to see it as much of a sacrifice - I mean, I'm fit and able, so there's no good reason for me to take the lazy way and drive in. *Not* cycling would seem... decadent.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
14:52 / 14.03.06
Mayer Hillman provides a method of calculating personal carbon footprints in How We Can save the Planet. Interestingly (and counter-intuitively) he says that with cars, you should only count journeys where you are the driver - passenger journeys don't count since the car would have travelled in any case (I don't know what happens if the journey was made by someone taking you to the train station...). This should give some idea of current ideas on the relative impact of various forms of transport. But I believe that one of the issues with planes is that they pollute at a higher level of the atmosphere which has more far-reaching effects than lower-level pollution (in the short term at any rate).

I haven't flown for five years (in fact I haven't left the country for five years) but that probably has more to do with inertia than a conscious decision to avoid it.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:15 / 14.03.06
This might be interesting: seems that
playing wild in nature as a kid increases your chances of being enviro-aware as an adult
 
 
Saturn's nod
15:22 / 14.03.06
I think there's something to be questioned in the way this has been framed.

We're not apart from earth, we're part of it. And ethical systems don't hang around outside us, they are part of how we decide.

I could fly to international scientific conferences on other continents, and in lots of ways I would love to, but I don't want to because air travel is such a damaging thing. I'm a scientist because I love the world, so it wouldn't make sense to make the decision to go, which I would feel as an act of earth/self hatred.

A second example: I am working towards having a wardrobe only of clothes made from organically farmed fibres dyed with non-toxic dyes and constructed by people paid a fair wage, which fit my requirements for comfy, practial and long-lasting clothes. Yes, you could say it's a strange direction for me to head in, because it takes such a large amount of my time and energy, but because it is so ethically rewarding, I really like the clothes I get. I am giving up having a lot of nice clothes which I did really like, but they seem less appealing now when my new dress satisfies on so many other levels.
 
 
illmatic
17:16 / 14.03.06
The only answer is rationing, and no government is going to do that.

I think this is an interesting phrase for a couple of reasons. Firstly, we have had rationing when we've needed it in the past, and will have it again if and when it's needed. Secondly, there's a lot of stuff about this in situationist theory about a general loss of historical consciousness ('cos of TEH SPECKTACKLE) ie. an awarenss of how the current conditions came about and how transitory they may prove to be.We've had something like our current standards of living for what - 30 years? 10 years? 5 years? Depending on where you put the marker. This may prove to be just a frop in the ocean (literally) in historical terms.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
17:31 / 14.03.06
Have you, for example, given up driving, even though it almost killed you to do it?

It hasn't almost killed me but I do love and enjoy driving. I passed my test when I was 18 and had a car for four years. I didn't replace it because I was out of work and spending most of my time in Central London, I have chosen not to buy a car now for environmental reasons.

Driving gave and still gives me a sense of freedom that I simply don't enjoy in any other way. The sense that should anything go wrong I can escape without restriction is always present when I drive whether the car is mine or not. It's truly one of my favourite things. My car kept me sane while I was at university, just knowing it was there and I could leave kept me there, reminded me that I had choices and whenever I felt depressed I'd just drive around and after a while I'd feel happy.

There's a scene in Speed where Sandra Bullock tells a woman on a bus that she misses her car, I get this feeling at least four times a week, on the tube, walking around, on the bus but I'm aware that it would probably double my carbon footprint, possibly more than double it, so I don't have a car and I'm not planning to buy one. At Christmas I hired a car for a week and ohmygod it was wonderful, it was so good to drive again, I hated leaving it behind, it felt like all the shackles came down again. I had forgotten how utterly wonderfully confident the things make me feel, they make me feel like I have a skill that's as physical as it is mental. That's not to say I forget that I have to be careful when I'm in control of one, more that I delight in all of the different aspects of driving including the care, attention and time you have to put into it. That I get to play with a metal beast... if money were the only object in my way I would definitely spend it on such a wonderful thing.

So yes, I've given something up, something very very special to me, something that I wanted for years before I could do it, something that I love beyond reason and it makes me really very sad when I think about it- so I don't.
 
 
Saveloy
07:04 / 15.03.06
That's a fantastic example, Nina, thank you. Would you say that, having given up, and knowing how painful it can be, you have higher or lower expectations of people than before? Or has it not made any difference?
 
 
Disco is My Class War
09:20 / 15.03.06
I'm becoming a worse 'self sacrificer' as I get older. I just learnt to drive last year, and was given an old car. I love driving. I LOVE it. Last time I tried to ride my bicycle the chain came off, and I still haven't fixed it. That was 2 months ago. (Admittedly I haven't been allowed to ride a bike or drive for some of that time, for medical reasons.) I'm well aware that I'm pumping CO2 into the grim Melbourne smog as I motor to the milk bar, to uni (riding distance), and usually without a passenger which feels even worse. I gave up being a vegetarian too, although I make an effort to eat organic/free range meat.

I think there's a danger here. The notion of self-sacrifice (where the objects sacrificed are mostly the conspicuous consumption kind, like cars, flights over short distances and hifi equipment) assumes that one has the resources and the money to be able to give stuff up already. It also assumes, or makes a gesture towards assuming, that being ascetic is morally better, somehow. That viewpoint often intersects with a moral judgment of people who are economically and socially disadvantaged who are totally upfront about their desire for conspicuous consumption. Ie, disapproving of slum kids because they wear Nikes and drive hotted-up cars.

There's nothing like that in this thread, and I'm really glad. But sometimes I wonder how politically useful 'sacrifice' is, when the systems that make it possible for environmental pillaging to occur (capitalism, colonialism, imperialism) will just go on as normal. Defining oneself as a consumer, and hence beginning an environmental politic from the point of view of consumption, really doesn't deal with the fact that production of gas-guzzling cars, nuclear warheads, nuclear power, coal, uranium, etc go on regardless. 'Global development' also means that even without the economic participation of some 'first world' consumers, who are making sacrifices, whole populations in 'developing' states are being invited or coerced into becoming conspicuous consumers. For instance China, where the privatisation of the commons (kicking people off farms) coincides with government encouragement to 'be upwardly mobile! Get a job! Buy things!' In this context, people have little choice, and the self-sacrifice model seems hardly relevant.

So, personally, I'd rather be involved in the struggle to end those systems that oppress everyone in different ways than kid myself that my non-consumption will change anything. I'm no slum kid, but I've been relatively poor pretty much all my life. When I was a kid, we did live without electricity for a while, and despite my parents' romantic hippie dreams, it really sucked. No clean clothes! No music unless you ran a generator! %Best years of my life.%

Now I enjoy finally having enough cash to afford to run a car. I'm trapped in the system too, but I refuse to feel judgmental about that conspicuous consumption I can afford.

Sorry, that seems a bit Switchboard for a Conversation thread, but I think we have to connect the bigger picture with our personal habits. And not always in the manner generally taken for granted when people say, "Think global, act local."
 
 
Ex
09:52 / 15.03.06
I agree with Mr D, but I also abstain. I don't expect my personal habits to change anything (for instance, I'm under the Gatwick flightpath, which shows me daily how ridiculously ineffectual my refusal to fly is). But I also just don't want to be part of it if I can avoid it.
I know things get decided on my behalf which are far more influential then my dithering bollocks ('Oooh, should I eat quinoa because of global warming and rice fields, or rice for the food miles?' vs. the Free Skies agreement). So I try to combine consumer choice with some more concrete government-poking.

I also agree with am464c to an extent - there's a lot of stuff which I don't do because it no longer appeals because of the environmental implications. I find it hard to aesthetically enjoy objects if I know they won't last long functionally, and they'll never biodegrade. (I picked up a lot of that from my parents; they combined thrift, environmental savvy and middle-class sniffiness about conspicuous consumption.)

But - there's a shifting border on that one. Sometimes I find I no longer fancy something I've been resisting, and sometimes I suddenly do.

So, at the moment, I am resisting:
Bananas. It's not much, but I do miss the fluffy yellow buggers.

Holidays. I am entirely surrounded by advertising about how I can fly to Prague for tuppence. I haven't been on holiday in three years - in fact, barring a couple of weekends away, in ten years. I really want a holiday. Why does it cost so much to get a train to Italy? Why is it only a tenth of the price to physically lift me, and a few tons of metal, over France? Is gravity such an evil thing that we have to taunt it hourly? Why do the airline companies not have to pay fuel tax? I'll probably never see Hagia Sofia, or the temple of Luxor - and I can't believe I feel entitled to see them! Why didn't I do a grand tour of Europe before I found out about global warming? AAAARGH!

And chocolate, my great love. I'm cutting down to weekends only; I'll report back if I manage it.
 
 
Isadore
09:55 / 15.03.06
Some very, very good points above.

Saveloy, I think you're looking for the suffering sort of sacrifice here, the sort where you salve over your pressing, burning desires for what you 'shouldn't' have with a very large and prickly blanket of moral superiority for being better than all those other people that you're secretly jealous of for being able to do what you've consciously chosen to punish yourself by giving up. If that makes sense.

Thing is, I can't see sacrifice in the suffering sense as healthy for anyone, you or the environment included. It hurts. It feeds a cycle of guilt and relapse into 'bad' habits that just seems to burn all the way down.

Ten years ago, my mother and I stopped eating red meat (currently defined in my diet as "anything that comes from a critter with four legs and a tail") for health reasons. After six months, we cooked ourselves up some nice steaks to celebrate our 'sacrifice' -- and found that we really didn't care for steak any more; in fact, it made us rather ill. Now I'm finding that, once I pay attention while eating, I really don't care for meat. At this point, the choice to eat a fully vegetarian diet isn't a sacrifice, it's a conscious decision based on hedonic calculus: what's best for me, what's best for the environment, and in general what brings more joy into the world.

Another example. I do still have a vehicle (a very old truck kept in good repair) but I tend to walk wherever I can, rather than drive. I chose to walk from a financial and environmental standpoint; I continue to do so because I marvel in the joy that simply wandering around my little city brings me. Monday morning was one of the brightest, most glorious days I've seen in a very long time, and I would have missed a lot of that wonder had I chosen to drive to the doctor's office instead.

I guess all I'm trying to say is that doing the right thing doesn't have to be hard. In fact, it helps one stay constant with 'good' habits if they're pleasurable in and of themselves, besides being the right thing to do.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:01 / 15.03.06
Totally. I'm aware this isn't quite what you're saying, Saveloy, but I do think we need to get away from the idea that "it can't be good for you (or, in this case, the environment) if it's fun". The equation "good works=suffering" goes a little too far down the road to sackcloth and ashes for my liking. And that's really not a good look on me.

Yes, there are things that have to be sacrificed- and yes, we really do need to address our reliance on fossil fuels and the like. But there's a whole ton of stuff we can do that's enjoyable, even separated from the warm fuzzy "doing the right thing" buzz. (That was one of the purposes of the original Reclaim The Streets actions, iirc- to make a point and try to have some impact while having a damn good time doing it).
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:50 / 15.03.06
Would you say that, having given up, and knowing how painful it can be, you have higher or lower expectations of people than before?

I think people are mistakenly applying the notion of suffering here. Suffering is not giving up luxuries, giving up a car for instance was sacrificing something that I loved but had absolutely no need to own. Likewise giving up an SUV for an environmentally friendly car in an area with no public transport isn't an infringement on a person, even if they lose a little elbow room.

Saveloy is asking for personal examples of environmentalism that people didn't necessarily want to partake in but felt they should perform anyway and there's no real flagellation involved in that, if anything there's an awareness and a congratulation in both the ability to recognise that we can do these things and have done them.

The notion of self-sacrifice (where the objects sacrificed are mostly the conspicuous consumption kind, like cars, flights over short distances and hifi equipment) assumes that one has the resources and the money to be able to give stuff up already.

Not in the context of this thread, only in the context of environmentalism as a popular movement and the assumption that anyone can do these things. This is a place for personal stories of sacrifice and thus it has space for the recognition of different levels of resource and money.

sometimes I wonder how politically useful 'sacrifice' is, when the systems that make it possible for environmental pillaging to occur (capitalism, colonialism, imperialism) will just go on as normal.

That's to assume that political movements can't grow from grassroots groups isn't it? This is a complicated issue because I think the purpose of sacrifice in this instance is to change what's available in the marketplace- so perhaps the aim is to get more people to buy energy saving lightbulbs, cause manufacturing of those items on a larger scale and thus drive down the cost of the bulbs. This is necessary not because it's ethical (because actually there are all kinds of problems with consumerism of this type and workers pay etc.) but because if we're serious about climate change it has to priority number 1 and we have to work ourselves into a position where it's possible for people with very little money to opt for a more carbon neutral life. In other words there is a place for sacrifice as a real tool here.

Sorry, if this seems rushed or convoluted. I might edit it later as I'm on lunch.
 
 
Brunner
11:53 / 15.03.06
I agree with the last few posts - self sacrifice to the point of suffering isn't good. If it comes to that, you'd be far better forgetting the sacrifice and writing to your MP over certain issues or joining a local protest group than making yourself miserable.
The thing is to at least do something and to be able to remain open to making further informed decisions. I've been called a "champagne socialist" a few times for not appearing to do enough of what I apparently preach but those that don't care will always find a way to criticise any amount of effort. I'm sure many people would think am464 is completely crazy (rather than committed) to forego the latest hip fashions for the sake of organic fair trade cotton clothing (whereas I think that is a worthy thing to do - any tips on ethical business clothing anyone?)...
And small things do often work and don't have to involve a sacrifice. Look at GM food in this country. No one actively bought those pig-gened self ripening tomatoes of a few years ago and so they were withdrawn (now just have to convince everyone that most non-organic meat is fed on GM animal feed). And look at the backlash against Sunny D?
 
  

Page: (1)2

 
  
Add Your Reply