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Underground > Policy & Help >

Barbelith doesn't get mad, it gets locked

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Jawsus-son Starship

17:59 / 09.03.06

From the comic forum;

"I'm the Juggernaut, bitch! and I got a bitch with me, we're gonna have a motherfucking rape party."

Ok, so we've locked a pretty harmless thread because of one line from a piss take cartoon which portrays the Jaggenaut from the X-Men comics as being a big black pimp. No-one calls for banning it for racial reasons (ethnic stereotyping black men as being pimps and gangsters), which would be slightly narrow sighted. No, no, no, one line in the cartoon (quoted above) causes all kinds of trouble. The situation is that the the thread is locked, we cannot discuss what was a pretty harmless cartoon, which I actually found amusing. Sure it's purile.

As Cassandra said in thread;

Everybody buckle your seatbelts. What used to be funny isn't funny anymore. Not that we ever found it funny, mind.

No one finds the concept of rape funny. But when something is so clearly tongue in cheek, not trying to provoke outrage in anyway, is it possible that the moderators can't act like they're the fucking regulators (warren g or stephen king).

This feels like pure bullshit. Can we expect all future threads which could possibly offend anyone to be automatic locks. Shall any discussion of the forth coming remake of the hills have eyes just be avoided. How about straw dogs. Are we no longer allowed to mention rape?

18:09 / 09.03.06

Here's the thing: the Internet is full of places where you or anybody else can be as stupid and crass and obnoxious as you want to be, all day every day.

Do you want Barbelith to be one of those places?

18:13 / 09.03.06

Somewhat more to the point: Are yo uhonestly incapable of perceiving a distinction between sexual assault as a topic of serious discussion and sexual asault as a fucking punchline?!?

18:13 / 09.03.06

Are we no longer allowed to mention rape?

I do think this is a valid question; the renaming of the "Women Who Rape" Head Shop thread made me a little uncomfortable.

18:15 / 09.03.06

You know what? Seems to me like it was locked purely because it was a shit thread (see Suedey's post). Fair enough - it's not like Comics doesn't already have more than enough of them, is it?

Or is *this* what we're going to get from now on? Shit thread gets locked because it's shit, somebody gets het up about overmoderation because they misunderstood the reasons.

The change to the HS thread that grant's pointed out, on the other hand, does strike me as being stupid and pointless.

*

18:20 / 09.03.06

I'll be happy to discuss that, grant. (Not that I made the decision, but evidently I provided a model.) It would have been as effective, in my mind, to spl*tt*r a couple of letters, or I wouldn't have objected if people had decided to leave it in. It's not barbelith's responsibility to protect people with sensitivities towards seeing the word in print from ever reading it on the board— it's just a nice gesture to make it avoidable, so some people feel safer taking part in the discussion.

Jawsus-son Starship

18:30 / 09.03.06

Somewhat more to the point: Are you honestly incapable of perceiving a distinction between distinction between sexual assault as a topic of serious discussion and sexual asault as a fucking punchline?!?

Hey, lets all put words in my mouth.

The point is ... where do you, or I, or anyone for that matter, decide the line should be drawn about taste and decency. Or we could just shout down anyone who asks a fucking question? Toss it up.

Seems to me like it was locked purely because it was a shit thread (see Suedey's post).

Seems to me like it was locked as a pre-emptive measure to stop a massive arguement.

If we could have a discussion - great.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

18:31 / 09.03.06

I okayed the lock. The lock was proposed because it was a shit thread. It had only the most tenuous connection to Comics to start with. If the content hadn't featured hee-lar-ee-us sexual assault humour then maybe it would have ended up in the Convo; arguably, however, this would not have been such a great thing either since there's a growing and understandable resentment amongst the Convo mods at the Convo's being used as a landfill.

I'm happy the sucker's toast and I don't know what the fuck is wrong with the people who aren't, frankly.

18:33 / 09.03.06

Paranoia.

18:39 / 09.03.06

For the record, Math. Had I been online at the time I would've okayed the lock for pretty much the reasons outlined by Mordant.

Please note, we have a long history of locking threads that are badly thought out and contribute nothing but noise to the board. The fact that it was offensive is almost (although far from entirely) incidental.

Jawsus-son Starship

18:40 / 09.03.06

The lock was proposed because it was a shit thread.

In who's opinion? You opinion? The guy who posted it thought it was funny.

It had only the most tenuous connection to Comics to start with.

Yeah, big time tenuous. It being about a comic book character and all.

I'm happy the sucker's toast and I don't know what the fuck is wrong with the people who aren't, frankly.

This just coming in over the wire, a report from an unnamed source states, and i quote, not everyone agrees with They call me *Mr* Carnival. Hasn't been confirmed, but we'll give you more as the story breaks.

Jawsus-son Starship

18:43 / 09.03.06

Thanks for the explanation Boboss. A little explanation makes a nice change from the usual dogpile. Good I love that word.

So stuff gets locked if people think it's shit. How long til that happens to this? Me thinks about ten minutes.

18:44 / 09.03.06

See, this is where we need to press the Barbelith Elite button. Could someone summon the team, so that they can extract Johnny5's intention and deal with it, and his anger, appropriately?

18:46 / 09.03.06

Thread outside of Convo tend to get locked if they have no clear purpose and seem unlikely to develop one.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

18:48 / 09.03.06

Nope, not everyone agrees with me. Or with any of the other mods. Hence, distributed moderation. FTR, I didn't propose the lock, just okayed it.

You want to explain to me why that was such a great thread, despite rape jokes and having only the most tenuous relationship to Comics anyway, I'm all ears.

Jawsus-son Starship

18:48 / 09.03.06

Thought it was a banter thread about a comic related thing.

18:52 / 09.03.06

Banter threads are unwelcome outside of Convo.

Jawsus-son Starship

19:00 / 09.03.06

What's the difference between this thread and and this thread?

Both seem kind of similar. One has a shit rape joke. Which one will be locked? You decide!

OK, at this point, I should probably reiterate why I'm bothering. I think it's kind of shitty that a thread will get locked based on whether a mod thinks it is shit or not. Secondly, I notice that anytime a thread mentions rape, out comes the dog pile. I mean, Women who rape being turned into Women who commit violent sex crimes or some other such bollocks? Why did that have to change? Was it out of respect for any rape victims who post on the board, or ... to stop the dogpile.

And then Mr Carnival brings out his smug beam. Well fuck you very much.

I think I need some help trying to pull out of this rage spiral. I'm gonna go look at the badgers.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

19:01 / 09.03.06

See, if it'd been about a comic that was a juvenile mickeytake created by tipp-exing out the speech bubbles and writing the hysterically funny phrase "I'm the Juggernaut, bitch!" a lot of times, I would have disagreed the lock. (I'd've given the comic a good roasting though.)

*

19:06 / 09.03.06

Desperate Math, I've posted what I believe to be the reasoning behind that. The people who okayed the change could give you a further explanation. But I agree that it should wait until you've bebadgered yourself into a state where further badgering of others is less likely.

19:07 / 09.03.06

Did you ever even pass a cursory glance around the board before you signed up, or was your membership an unexpected present?

Go and read up on the way distributed moderation works. Then come back here and moan about how a lock goes through on the say-so of a single moderator.

19:07 / 09.03.06

Idiotic bullshit, however, is welcome everywhere else on the Internet. I ask again, is there really a need for it to be embraced here as well?

Desperate, I've gotta ask Do you really think there was anything in that particular thread that's worth defending? or is this more of a general principles / slippery slope / "first they came for the Juggernaut" kind of thing?

Because, if the latter, I thik Randy's right; I think you're operating out of a paranoid headspace right now. There is still plenty of room in this community to talk about serious issues in a serious fashion. That's the point I was trying to make when talking about the distinction between a substantive discussion and a punchline. I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth—I was rying to point out that the former is in no danger of falling beneath the censorious boot of moderation, while the latter is best left to other, twattier boards in the first place.

The right to discuss difficult issues is essential, and it's worth fighting for. The right to be a braying jackass? Not so much.

19:08 / 09.03.06

Nope, not everyone agrees with me.

I usually do, but then you have bought me beer and you are the Pope.

DM, that isn't "near the line", it's tripped over the line and fallen down, down into the sort of thing we did when we were ten and didn't know better.
Seriously, I think I still have a C60 with a sketch about Wombles cleaning up dogshit which is funnier and more relevant than that to the thread.
I really hope I didn't OK your application.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

19:08 / 09.03.06

I mean, Women who rape being turned into Women who commit violent sex crimes or some other such bollocks? Why did that have to change?

Consistency, I believe. If one of the big reasons we were all up in arms about SR's stupid nickname was that it would be triggering/offensive for suvivors, then it makes a certain amount of sense to take similarly emotionally loaded terms out of topic abstracts.

19:13 / 09.03.06

Mordant> I disagree on that point. SR decided on his name as a funny, for shits and giggles. The use of the word 'rape' within the context of that Head Shop thread and title is an entirely different matter, and I personally don't think the alteration there was at all justified.

19:16 / 09.03.06

Are we no longer allowed to mention rape?

This point has not been advocated by anyone in this discussion. id entity explicitly stated that this was not the point in his original comments, here (see especially the clarifying follow-on post).

I was the one who used id's words as one basis for why the Headshop "women who rape" thread should be renamed (and--note!--used the word "rape" in making the suggestion), but also please note that a very similar suggestion had actually been made very early in the thread simply for the sake of accuracy. I did not make the decision; I did not "order" that the decision be made; I suggested that there might be good reasons for doing so.

The strength, vigor, and intensity of the argument about sexism on Barbelith has probably taken all of us by surprise--and, not least of all, the female-identifying posters here. I can understand some wariness about getting too "trigger happy" somehow as a result.

However, can you grant and ER equally accept my perception that this thread's particular reaction also smells a little of the "women who complain about sexism are just sexless, joyless women going all schoolmarmish on the cool rule breakin' boyz..." school of thought that I mentioned in Feminism 101.

Saying let's be more intentional and precise about how we use highly emotive words--and especially doing so in the headshop where intentionality and precision are highly valued--does not strike me as PC gone mad.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

19:17 / 09.03.06

Yeah, you have a point, and in fact I would probably have disagreed it if I'd seen the request. I understand that to have been the rationale, however.

Jawsus-son Starship

19:19 / 09.03.06

The whole Sensetive Rapist thing - he's an arse, and using rape in this way, I don't even no why, but it's just wrong.

"first they came for the Juggernaut" is kind of how I feel. I thought the thing was real funny until the guys start the whole rape party thing at which point I went -click-, and closed the thing. And then I read the rest of the thread, and the guy goes "it's tongue in cheek." then cassandra says something, then some other stuff happens, and I think, fuck it, I'm gonna say something. And then it turns out I'm being a bit of an asshole, and so I think maybe I'll just withdraw, and then Mr Carnival says some shit, and I have to say something back, and now i look like a massive prick...

...but I've got a valid point somewhere in this jumbled mess of words.

But hey, guess I've gotta keep my mouth shut in case n00b doesn't think I'm barbelith material. Because I think this might be the first shit storm I've kicked up.

19:21 / 09.03.06

Desperate Math: If you think the Mods are locking threads that shouldn't be locked, I think you should ask to become one.

Seriously. If I had a problem with Moderation on Barbelith, the first thing I'd do would be to ask to be made a Mod so I would get a vote. As it is, I think the Mods are doing a good job, and so it's a headache I don't have to volunteer for.

Jawsus-son Starship

19:24 / 09.03.06

instead, of becoming a mod, i think I'll just keep my head down. You know, straighten up and fly right. Or some such.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

19:31 / 09.03.06

Look, everyone kicks up a shitstorm at some point. I think there's been a massive... not change, exactly, but upheaval recently in the way the board looks at things like this, and there's bound to be concerns--going too far, not going far enough, and so forth. I think it's fair enough to raise those concerns, although a more deserving test case would have served you better.

Think about the mod thing. Maybe when you've been around a bit longer.

Regrettable Juvenilia

19:43 / 09.03.06

using rape in this way, I don't even no why, but it's just wrong.

Are you saying you don't know why he did it, or that you don't know why it's wrong?

I think if the thread in question had been started by someone with the basic ability to recognise why it might be offensive, and had been intended to be a thread in which the artistic and ethical merits and drawbacks of this piece of hilarious fratboy asshattery were discussed, there might have been an argument for keeping it open. Certainly, we would not want to lock threads that discussed art or entertainment with that kind of content on that basis alone.

However, this was not that kind of thread, was it? It was intended to be a HYUK HYUK HYUK guffaw guffaw thread, and ninja seemed rather taken aback when someone was disquieted by it. Depressingly, this may reflect on the general cultural make-up of mainstream comics fandom. I can't decide if I'd be interested to hear ninja explain what on earth was meant by It's from a blatantly different cultural backround, stated as a mitigating factor, or whether I would actually be appalled, bored, tired and aggravated.

Maybe ninja doesn't read the rest of the board. But, as has to have been a possibility if not a certainty with the Sensitive Reality Tunnel Challenger, maybe it's still too much of a coincidence and he was trying to show that the humourless PC feminists couldn't keep a happy-go-lucky fuckwit misogynist comics fan down oh god oh god I am so tired of these people they come every thirty-three minutes.

*

19:46 / 09.03.06

{tangent}

You know what I really thought was neat? In Barbequotes, when some folks started making some banter that was kind of uncomfortable for some, and then someone said just that: "Hey, this is me, getting uncomfortable." And the fun continued, but it went in a different direction, so everyone could have fun instead of some people having fun and the rest feeling sort of creeped out and not wanting to say anything about it. I thought that was remarkable and really really nice. It gave me a "this is my family" kinda glow. I wouldn't have felt the same way if I thought it was about censorship, because I don't want to stop anyone having fun. I fully support fun— I am pro-fun, in fact. Just, you know, inclusive fun.

{/tangent}

19:53 / 09.03.06

Maybe lose the repetition of the ugly ficsuit name from the thread summary? Sheesh.

Jawsus-son Starship

19:56 / 09.03.06

Are you saying you don't know why he did it, or that you don't know why it's wrong?

Don't know why he did it. Its all to obvious as to why it is wrong.

Look, everyone kicks up a shitstorm at some point. I think there's been a massive... not change, exactly, but upheaval recently in the way the board looks at things like this, and there's bound to be concerns--going too far, not going far enough, and so forth. I think it's fair enough to raise those concerns, although a more deserving test case would have served you better.

And this is why I love the 'lith. because I can go away, and look at some badgers, and then come back and the guy I'm arguing with will say he understands me. In the real world, this doesn't happen so much.

"Hey, this is me, getting uncomfortable."

The way foward. It looks like the monolith from here, the way we can evolve.

Wow, I'm so chilled right now. Carnival, thank you for doing the whole looking from over here, both sides thing. Sorry I called you smug, or in the possesion of a smug beam. They're a big time WMD's, so any problems with the CIA, i'll tell them it was a hoax.

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