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Would you like a taste of the sin?

 
  

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Spyder Todd 2008
23:26 / 07.03.06
I've been trying to do a little bit of research recently on sin eaters, but the internet is being rather useless about it. There are very few books covering the practice, it seems. It was cause for excommunication by the Vatican, though, which means there must have been plenty of people doing it back in the day. I'm wondering if any one around here knows any good books on the subject or has any experience with this rather archaic tradition.
 
 
assayudin
07:20 / 08.03.06
I heard about this when I was a kid. They said the family could pay the sin eater to eat food that was lain on the dead person and that the eater would take the deceased's sin with them. I heard it was an Irish tradition, but I was really young so it may have gotten garbled (Irish-American family telling the story to me so I got it confused.)

Ostensibly the eater could then go to confession and ask for absolution, relieving them of the burden. No idea how they would list the specific sins, unless they just guessed or made it up.

It reminds me of people being paid to keen or wail at funerals, but then I'm not sure where I got that either.

But then that's probably all wrong.
 
 
Quantum
09:00 / 08.03.06
Did you just see The Heath Ledger film?
 
 
Quantum
09:16 / 08.03.06
Ostensibly the eater could then go to confession and ask for absolution, relieving them of the burden.

I don't think so, I think sin-eaters were fucked. The rationale is that if someone's going to hell anyway they might as well take some of your sins on, so the deal was you get your relative's sins cleansed and destitute heretics could eat- everyone's a winner! I may be misunderstanding the whole thing though, a lot of my opinion comes from Patrick O'Brien ("One of the characters in Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin series was Cheslin (waister-starboard watch), who was found by the crew to have been a sin-eater. He was expelled by his mess, not allowed to eat or sleep near them") I know it's an English tradition though, up until nearly the 20th century.

Wikipedia sez-
Traditionally, each village maintained its own sin-eater. The sin-eater would be brought to the dying person's bedside, and there either he or a relative would place a bit of bread on the breast of the dying. After praying and/or reciting the ritual, he would then remove the bread from the breast and eat it, the act of which would remove the sin from the dying and take it into himself.
The act of being a sin-eater is/was generally considered a cardinal sin by the Catholic Church because it provided absolution outside the purview of the priesthood, and resulted in immediate excommunication.


So it's a form of Simony
 
 
Alex's Grandma
09:35 / 08.03.06
Inteesting that the Catholic Church seems to have felt that it worked though - I'd have thought it would have been more inclined to dismiss the whole practice as a blasphemous con. After all, surely God wouldn't permit this kind of flouting of the rules?
 
 
grant
17:42 / 08.03.06
I think the "blasphemous con" bit would be the reason for the excommunication. The "absolution" would be viewed as a malicious, soul-endangering lie. Officially, at least. The official line is also a little hinky about "cults of the saints," too.
 
 
assayudin
03:51 / 09.03.06
Well the church may have been trying to keep anyone from cutting in on their action. Keeping people coming to them for confession and absolution instead of letting them feel like they could get "off the hook" by employing the Sin Eater.

Or they could have been genuinely afraid for the persons soul, seeing Sin Eaters as more then just cons, but as malicous criminals. Sort of recruiters for Hell.

I doubt they believed it worked, but it doesn't seem like they were real big on just letting things slide.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:28 / 09.03.06
Interesting that the Catholic Church seems to have felt that it worked though - I'd have thought it would have been more inclined to dismiss the whole practice as a blasphemous con. After all, surely God wouldn't permit this kind of flouting of the rules?

You're not allowing for the fact that medieval Catholicism and Christianity before the Reformation was fucking mental. All sorts of stuff was condemned and considered punishable by excommunication by the Church officials, but at a local level, allowed to slide cos it got people into Church and involved. Practical religiousity had Saints syncretised with Pagan Gods, Holy Communion wafers used in charms and worn as talismans, perpetual chantries functioning as ancestor veneration and Sin Eaters. In fact, most of the folk magic practiced by "Cunning folk" was previously a part of normal Church life. In many cases, the cunning folk used the exact same rituals that previously would have been done under the auspices of the local Church, and the whole reason for the popularity of cunning folk in the first place was the clamping down on such things that occurred post-Reformation. Read about that period. It's mad.
 
 
Dead Megatron
11:20 / 09.03.06
All that you just mentioned still happens down here in Brazil, GL. In fact, a priest has recently been punished byt the Big power of the Catholic Church for attending mass dressed as an African-Brazilian orixá. His congreation, though, just loved it.

Religious syncretism is teh awesome!!!1!
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:33 / 09.03.06
The parallels between pre-Reformation Catholicism functioning at a local level, and religious syncretism in places like Brazil and Cuba are fascinating.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:13 / 09.03.06
Gypsy, could you recommend some reading on that? I've a feeling you already did so in another thread, but I can't find which one.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:15 / 09.03.06
"Religion and the decline of magic" by Keith Thomas
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
14:44 / 09.03.06
Q, I have actually seen the movie (filed it under "should have been better") quite a while ago. I'd heard of sin eaters before that though, and movies have ways of, shall we say, imbelshing certain parts. Gypsy, I'll have to look into finding that book. I don't suppose there's a record anywhere of any ritual involved with the practice more specific than wikipedia's?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:50 / 09.03.06
What's your interest in the concept? If you don't mind me asking
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
21:14 / 09.03.06
I'm doing research for a story I'm writing. I'm debating adding to the main character's backstory that he was a sin eater back in the day (he has sort of been a throne in the side of the church forever anyway), but I don't want to do that unless I fully understand the practice and can integrate it fully and intelligently into the story. I want to make sure anything I put into the story is historically accurate, or I'm not putting it in at all.

And also, archaic religious practices are of interest to me (in fact, the entire story I'm writing could be said to be a testament to that)
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
05:34 / 10.03.06
Did a paper on "Magic in the Middle Ages" by Richard Kieckhefer a couple years ago for a first year History course.

Nifty book. Worth reading through, if only to suggest, as GL as pointed out, just how prevalent and nuts magic was back in and around the Middle Ages. Herbal remedies, mystic charms, and the like everywhere.

One interesting thing that Kieckhefer discusses is penetials, manuals written or used by priests to figure out what sort of penance that someone should take or be given for a given action. I just love the image of someone, who is presumably literate, owning a manual that explains that if he does X sin he will need to perform Y penance. Not really magic, but an amusing image none the less.

I'm going to note something I haven't seen mentioned so far, and its probably bunk because I really don't know what period the practice of sin eating thrived in, but I wonder how much sin eating would have cut down on the sale of indulgences by the church. Probably not a whole lot, but I wonder if its worth considering.

Then again, in the context of Catholic theology absolution given at death by someone who's not a priest DOES sound a bit dodgy. And really...if someone is damning themselves to Hell by taking on other people's sins...well if that person KNOWS they're damned what's to stop them from going out and doing some damned awful things? I'm pretty sure they asked themselves that at some point. Then again, that's the exact same argument I've always, mainly jokingly, posed to the subject of Calvanism (If you don't know whether you're going to Heaven or Hell, do you REALLY want to live a pious life on the slim chance that you MIGHT be destined for Heaven...or would you rather have fun because you're probably predestined to go to Hell anyway?).
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:23 / 02.05.07
I have been thinking of a way to have all of my sins and transgressions eaten, i started looking into the Grigori Azazel and came upon the associations with a goat offered to Azazel for the sins of the Israelites.

Also alot of other associations which are just as intresting from the jewish encyclopedia here.

Azazel

This part struck me as relevant to the practice i was developing - There has been much controversy over the function of Azazel as well as over his essential character. Inasmuch as according to the narrative the sacrifice of Azazel, while symbolical, was yet held to be a genuine vicarious atonement, it is maintained by critics that Azazel was originally no mere abstraction, but a real being to the authors of the ritual—as real as Yhwh himself.

This relation to the purpose of the ceremony may throw light upon the character of Azazel. Three points seem reasonably clear. (1) Azazel is not a mere jinnee or demon of uncertain ways and temper, anonymous and elusive (see Animal Worship), but a deity standing in a fixed relation to his clients. Hence the notion, which has become prevalent, that Azazel was a "personal angel," here introduced for the purpose of "doing away with the crowd of impersonal and dangerous se'irim" (as Cheyne puts it), scarcely meets the requirements of the ritual. Moreover, there is no evidence that this section of Leviticus is so late as the hagiological period of Jewish literature.


The inspiration for the rite i am working upon started last night, with notes cobbled from this page in particular and others. The idea of a demon that feeds on sin intrests me, also because within the book of enoch Azazel is also held responsible for all the sin in the world pre flood, so there is a paradox between him whom spreads sin and feeds upon sin, but in a sense there is a logic if sin is your food.

So far i am working with a prayer and symbol structure and improvised spoken poetry/song. If last night is anything to go by, the demon Azazel whom eats sins and trangressions is a very real force to work with, to make offerings of ones sins or transgressions too.

Some work involving the casting of scarlet ribbons is sure to follow, i don't own any goats luckily, also an investigation of yom kippur needs to follow.

I also like the idea of a demon as a point of confession for some strange reason.
 
 
Ticker
13:57 / 02.05.07
I've talked to some other neo-pagan flavored spiritworkers about various forms of sin eating. There tends be a mushing together of illness transmutation, energy cleansing and classic sin absorbtion. The process of taking something 'bad/unwanted' and changing it or shouldering the burden exists in a couple of ritual forms including the scapegoat variety.

I know a variety of healers that will absorb and transform something icky from their clients but fewer that will carry a burden of wrongdoing. Though some communities I know of practice this latter form of one person carries the debts/sins of the community and is ritually dealt with.

Some of my recent work involves taking on the sins of my community (very specific ones) and through magical work correcting the blood debt. I can't say I'd offer to do it on a wide basis as it is a very real burden.
 
 
Unconditional Love
20:48 / 02.05.07
I don't think i could take on others sins and wrong doings myself, especially where there is a lesson to be learnt from the wrong doing, if you take something from somebody that forms there conscience that would not be a wise choice.

Something that provides that kind of teaching is very important, but something that feeds on the idea of sin itself and prospers from it is a completely different remit, to the removal of the lessons in life's mistakes.
 
 
Mister Saturn
04:28 / 03.05.07
But when someone's at the thershold of death, or even beyond, asking for absolution and recieving none?

I am new to the concept, but it seems to me from first glance, that sin-eaters eat your sins, but not your regret - and what of suicide?

To me, sin-eaters would take away the taint upon your soul, but not your memory. Just as confession/last rites would do so, and leave you feeling at peace.
 
 
Unconditional Love
16:16 / 03.05.07
As it turns out Yom Kippur is a truly fascinating ritual, thou it seems quite bloody more here Yom Kippur

Now off as the article mentions to see the relationship to judgment day.

The acts of atonement for a variety of different sins take place during Yom Kippur, its interesting to see the rememberence of such things and to speculate what role they may play in regards to social structure and the notion of sin itself.
 
 
EvskiG
17:10 / 03.05.07
As it turns out Yom Kippur is a truly fascinating ritual

You might be misspeaking, but Yom Kippur isn't a ritual. As the link you provided shows, it's the most holy of the Jewish holidays, the Day of Atonement.

Fast, think about your sins over the last year, and ask for the forgiveness of God and the people you've wronged.

My mother, for example, calls me every Yom Kippur, apologizes for any wrong she's done to me over the last year, and asks my forgiveness.

thou it seems quite bloody more here Yom Kippur

Huh?

I assume you're saying "bloody more here" -- that is, lots more here at the link -- and not "though it [Yom Kippur] seems quite bloody."

Now off as the article mentions to see the relationship to judgment day.

Obviously, Jews, who actually celebrate the holiday, don't consider there to be a connection.
 
 
WireHead
17:28 / 03.05.07
This reminds me of an excerpt from Ram Dass's "Be Here Now." In the introductory passages he relates how he came to study under a hindu guru- a real-deal Guru that Ram Dass has a lot to say about. After the transition from west-coast intellectual to robe-wearing hindu monk, he manages to get out of the monastery for a day and eats all sorts of decadent food he wasn't supposed to.

Upon his return, the guru greets him, and Dass bursts into tears with the knowledge of his own iniquity, dropping a bag of oranges he was carrying. The guru, however, knew exactly what was going on, and ate a ridiculous number of oranges really fast to "take on his karma."

Knowing that I probably butchered this retelling, or that some may find a more exact excerpt useful, I dug out my copy of the book:
"... I came and took one look at him, and the oranges went flying and I started to cry and I fell down and they were patting me. Maharaji was eating oranges as fast as he could, manifesting through eating food the process of taking on the karma of someone else... And he ate eight oranges right before my eyes. I had never seen anything like that...
the whole thing was very maudlin, and he pulls me by the hair, and I look up and he says to me, 'How did you like the biscuits?' "
 
 
Papess
17:54 / 03.05.07
From my estimation, a "sin-eater" would have to be fully accountable for their own actions, before being able to take on the "sins" of another.

Also, on "lessons": It seems, from the stories I have read from Eastern trads, in this thread and elsewhere, there seems to be a lesson that is taught by the very virtue of "sin-eater(ing)", for the recipient. By being witness, or recognizing such a favour/activity could be quite profound, I'd imagine.
 
 
Unconditional Love
19:08 / 03.05.07
EV G if you read the description of the service at the temple in Jerusalem, it is quite bloody, sacrificial goats and a bull i think it refers too and the sprinkling of blood. (above link)
 
 
Unconditional Love
19:13 / 03.05.07
From the description while the Temple of Jerusalem was standing, this is the period when Azazel would have been recognized as a deity alongside God according to some, thats what really interests me. What would perhaps latter or earlier have been considered a demon is recognized alongside god, that is also very fascinating and opens up a whole different perspective and take to the field of demonology.
 
 
EvskiG
19:56 / 03.05.07
EV G if you read the description of the service at the temple in Jerusalem, it is quite bloody, sacrificial goats and a bull i think it refers too and the sprinkling of blood. (above link)

So you're talking about Yom Kippur as it was practiced before the destruction of the Second Temple roughly 2,000 years ago.

That wasn't at all clear from your previous comment:

Yom Kippur is a truly fascinating ritual, thou it seems quite bloody

Which seemed to refer to Yom Kippur more generally, including as celebrated by Jews worldwide today.

From the description while the Temple of Jerusalem was standing, this is the period when Azazel would have been recognized as a deity alongside God according to some

I'm a big fan of early Hebrew polytheism, but no.

According to the Oxford Bible Commentary, "for azazel" probably originally meant "for the elimination of God's wrath." In other words, "Azazel" didn't refer to a being at all.

The Talmud later said that, because many communities pitched their scapegoats off a cliff to prevent them from returning (even though they really were supposed to be led into the wilderness), "azazel" meant mountain or cliff.

Of course, through misinterpretation, Azazel eventually became an entity in its own right. You might want to look here for a more detailed discussion.
 
 
Unconditional Love
21:08 / 03.05.07
The equality between them for me is just a magickal act on my part, there is some evidence on the link you point to to support me, but more against. But magickally speaking for my own personal practice it is imperative to my practice that a demon be considered equal to god as the act of heresy is a constant sin to feed to the demon. That the very ritual act be sinful reinforces the offerings made.
 
 
EvskiG
21:24 / 03.05.07
Party on, dude.

You can equate Azazel with a bagel if you really want to.

But you may not want to confuse your idiosyncratic personal practice with the actual observance of Yom Kippur, past or present.

Especially if you drag demons and blood into the picture.
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:58 / 03.05.07
Not to equate too, or treat as if it is, that just would be poor taste, But the old temple rite is a great source of inspiration for structure in parts and it has some great symbolic themes involved.

Looking at sin in general is something else that needs to be considered, where does the notion of sin actually come from? does it predate familiar middle eastern sources?
 
 
Unconditional Love
10:48 / 04.05.07
Azazel also becomes a much more rounded force when you see other symbols and characteristics that are equated with him -

Azazel

Azazil
 
 
Papess
13:55 / 04.05.07
I am having difficulty understanding the transmutation of sin in the two scenarios: One where a being has been unknowingly burdened and then possibly lead astray or killed, and another practice where someone volunteers to take on the burden of sin. The first seems to be generating more "sin", IMHO. It seems more like a delay-of-burden rather than sin-eating, which is fine. I am just trying to comprehend the process of this type of purification practice.

When I first saw the topic come to the top, it instantly reminded me of Hayagriva

Hayagriva,in Tibetan Buddhism, is a wrathful form of Avilokiteshvera, Buddha of Compassion. Therefore, Hayagriva embodies "wrathful compassion". There are various teachings I have heard or read that call upon Hayagriva to come and eat one's sin, kleshas (basically: emotional obstacles), and obscuration of all kinds - in fact, it is more of an offering and feast. Hayagriva, who is nearly indestructible but can only be killed by himself, another Hayagriva, is also a Bodhisattva. This is why Hayagriva is willing to take on the burdens. He is indestructible and is capable of taking on the skillful process of transmutation and purification with confidence. Much in the same way a Bodhisattva in human form would help to purify poisons and obstacles where they could with confidence. I just can't seem to equate that type of formidable "sin-eating" with chucking a goat off a cliff.

I personally find the idea of scapegoating a bit reprehensible, unless I was dealing with a fully aware, Bodhisattva goat. Maybe the original meaning is lost on scapegoating. It would be great to be clear on the parameters of such magickal practices. What exactly is one doing when they are scapegoating or sin-eating, and what are the differences between these two? In my estimation, these two may have similar immediate results, but I cannot see them as the exact same process or equally effective.
 
 
EvskiG
16:11 / 04.05.07
Azazel also becomes a much more rounded force when you see other symbols and characteristics that are equated with him

In your first link, that's the seal from Simon's Necronomicon in Azazel's hand.

The discussion at the site also notes: "I've drawn from a couple of different sources to put the 'advent' of Azazel into a time frame. One of these sources is the Necronomicon."

I wouldn't count on that as gospel, so to speak.

(Delirium's Realm, however, is pretty good. Krista knows her stuff.)
 
 
EvskiG
16:58 / 04.05.07
I personally find the idea of scapegoating a bit reprehensible, unless I was dealing with a fully aware, Bodhisattva goat.

Then you'd really hate kaparot.

Rarely done these days, thank goodness.

(It's hard to find a sufficiently enlightened chicken.)
 
 
Papess
17:07 / 04.05.07
You are right there, Ev!

Various selections are recited from Psalms and from the Book of Job. Prayers are also recited. The chicken, which is alive, is taken in the right hand and moved in a circular motion around the head three times. While holding the bird, the incantation is said, "This is my substitute, my vicarious offering, my atonement. This chicken shall meet its death, but I shall find a long and pleasant life of peace"

Hmm, nope. Not terribly impressive as a practice.

The custom was that the chicken was then slaughtered and given to the poor. If a fowl was not available, the custom was to do the same thing with money which was then given to charity. Similar to many charitable gifts today, the practice was often that the coin should be a multiple of eighteen or chai, meaning life.

Yeah, I will stick to making charitable donations. I doubt a slaughtered chicken would have the same impact anyway, enlightened or not. However, I do find that these two things are equated with each other rather interesting.
 
  

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