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Ambiguous & Transformative

 
  

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Ganesh
20:10 / 19.03.06
Posting in passing (ho ho), but it strikes me that many of the Hindu deities and heroes had other-gender aspects, or swapped genders.

Another example - and one of my favourites - is (I think) the third of Patricia Highsmith's Tom Ripley novels, in which the eponymous anti-hero expends a lot of time and energy dragging up, ostensibly to rescue a contact who's being held prisoner in a German gay club. Hmm.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
00:53 / 20.03.06
Deva -- wow, I'm quite amazed to learn about the different manuscripts of GoE. I want to read the manuscript!

And to answer your question, yes, much of the transphobia and misogyny in the book works through its narrative structure. It does everything you point to, in terms of presenting a 'perverse' or queer heterosexuality (or at least an attempt at that). There are moments in the middle where David realises he cannot think about Catherine's desire to be a boy, can't process it, and this is where the novel could have turned itself toward a dissection of his responses.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
00:55 / 20.03.06
Oh, and Ganesh, what is the title of that Highsmith book? I'm interested.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
04:28 / 20.03.06
Disco: There are moments in the middle where David realises he cannot think about Catherine's desire to be a boy, can't process it, and this is where the novel could have turned itself toward a dissection of his responses.

Huh. I'm inclined to read Garden of Eden and write a responding story to do something along those lines.

Another shifting god(ddess): Canadian playwright Tomson Highway's The Rez Sisters and Dry Lips Oughta Move to Kapuskasing both feature Nanabush, an Ojibwe trickster figure. Rez Sisters has an all-female cast and Dry Lips has an all-male cast, except that Nanabush appears as the opposite gender in each one. Ze ostensibly changes shape into any female or male characters necessary.
 
 
Crestmere
08:37 / 20.03.06
In my Gay and Lesbian Lit class we discussed the narrator of Written on the Body.

My suggestion that the character changed genders between male and female was kind of mocked. They said it was too fantastical.

But I'm a comic reader too--you know? I don't think that kind of thinking is any way out of the ordinary.




I was also mocked when I said that Sir Justin in Morrison's Seven Soldiers: Shining Knight was not in the tradition of female characters that had disguised themselves as males ala Twelfth Night but instead represented a transgendered individual. And, really, unless Seven Soldiers 1 shows her returning to a female or feminine gender role, I see no reason why this reading would be inaccurate.

I know it might be strange for some that I would mention a comic in this discussion but gender roles in superhero comics do tend to be hyper masculine and hyper feminine, and, as a result of this, we can really see the social construction of gender roles almost to a Judith Butler level of blatancy. Even in a gay-themed comic like Enigma, we see this. And, honestly, comic books can be critiqued and analyzed using the same tools, theories and paradigms that "literature" can be discussed using.
 
 
Cat Chant
13:06 / 20.03.06
There are moments in the middle where David realises he cannot think about Catherine's desire to be a boy, can't process it

Wow. That hit me right in the chest and made me breathless. You're absolutely right, but I hadn't seen how pivotal that is to the book - David's inability to think about this. It makes Catherine's desire to stop him writing all this homosocial boycentric Africa claptrap and start him writing 'the narrative' (about their relationship) look like the moral centre of the book... or not of the real book, but of the book as it could have been/as I wish it was, or something.

Wow.

*prances off to think more about this*
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
14:31 / 20.03.06
Nolan: My suggestion that the character changed genders between male and female was kind of mocked. They said it was too fantastical. (re: Written on the Body)

I think you'll find some people can't quite get away from the fantastical being just as genuine as anything else in literature. Why did you find the narrator switched back and forth, rather than remaining neutral or being a perceived gender (i.e. projected or otherwise)?

I know it might be strange for some that I would mention a comic in this discussion but gender roles in superhero comics do tend to be hyper masculine and hyper feminine, and, as a result of this, we can really see the social construction of gender roles almost to a Judith Butler level of blatancy. Even in a gay-themed comic like Enigma, we see this. And, honestly, comic books can be critiqued and analyzed using the same tools, theories and paradigms that "literature" can be discussed using.

I've wanted to keep the thread away from comics simply because, while I can think of numerous examples - Ystin being a prime one - this is the Bookshop forum, rather than the Comics. Otherwise I'd be bringing up Promethea and its many trans and transforming characters (Roger of the Five Swell Guys, for example, turning into a woman after "the Suffragette City episode").

Deva: It makes Catherine's desire to stop him writing all this homosocial boycentric Africa claptrap and start him writing 'the narrative' (about their relationship) look like the moral centre of the book... or not of the real book, but of the book as it could have been/as I wish it was, or something.

Hah! Makes me think of Borges. Maybe that's the secret novel within the novel - the novel of their relationship, the novel he could not write? I just finished a very slim volume On Borges so I'm all hopped up right now on ideas about all books containing the implication of all other books, even if Borges was a bit of a misogynist.
 
 
Ganesh
22:43 / 20.03.06
Oh, and Ganesh, what is the title of that Highsmith book?

It's (I think) the third of Highsmith's Ripley books, The Boy Who Followed Ripley. Features several scenes in Berlin, wherein Ripley goes to frankly ridiculous lengths to 'pass' as female in order to rescue a young male protege from a gang of kidnappers.
 
 
Crestmere
04:26 / 21.03.06
Papers:

Still a bit new here. I think I'll screw it up if I try to quote something.

Well, the discussion came up about the narrator being male or female. And there were a lot of compelling arguments for both. And I suppose that the most rational explanation for me seemed not to throw out all the things on the other side but figure out how it could be both. So it came down to changing biological sex at various points in the book or being some sort of mutant alien creature. But then I actually seriously started thinking along those lines and I realized that it wasn't just some weird line of thought that came out of my head (Honestly, I come up with a lot of those) but that it actually made a lot of sense as a template for analysis of the book.

And through the narrator lacking a name or a clear gender, we can see just how artificial and limiting our thoughts on gender roles really are. But if we take that a step further with the character actually changing gender (whether by magic, mutation, postmodern experimentation, mad science or god know what else) we not only do that but we get a larger play against the artifice of a lot of things related to mankind. I mean what is speculative fiction (and, honestly, I draw a pretty liberal boundary around this, more liberal then most people) if not a comment on the way that things are? Just looking over at my bookshelf, we wouldn't have had Starship Troopers if not for Cold War militarism, we wouldn't have had The Plot Against America or The Man in the High Castle if not for World War II, we wouldn't have had Utopia if not for England being a pretty terrible place after the Wars of the Roses and we wuldn't have had J. G. Ballard writing about...well, pick one, he writes about a lot of things.

Forgive me, I have a headache, abstract critical thought in explicit detail about a book I've read several months ago is difficult for me at the moment. I'll post more specific examples of this in a few days.

There is some merit to this but at the same time it is kind of out in left field.




Regarding the second one, I just wanted to point out that I saw a transgendered reading in that book and I was trying to connect it. I didn't want to send the thread going in to a direction of "Transgendered Images in Comics: Social Speculation and Mad Science" or something that sounded like some incredibly arcane lecture that would be attended by 7 university students.

But, at the same time, and this is meant with absolutely no offense intended, I'm not sure that it does either literature or comics a favour to draw a line in the sand in some way. And, it seems that even people who like comics and know their comics fairly well do this (on the other board I post at, I've had people say I overanlyze comics too much because I look at them the way soemone would look at a book). For one, it does tend to ghettoize the comic medium by saying that it can't play with the big boys in the realm of literature. And it also makes the world of "literature" seem like an exclusive clubhouse that somehow only the best works can get in to, and that does smack of the same lines of thiking that made it difficult for a lot of women writers, non-Western writers and ethnic minority writers to really have their work accepted as "literature" because there was the myth of a single canon of great works. Look at how difficult it was for Chinua Achebe to be accepted in to "literature" for Things Fall Apart or Philip K. Dick because not a lot of people saw works from the "Dark Continent" or Science Fiction as something that could warrant the kind of literary quality that "literature" needs. And, honestly, with works like Watchmen, Sandman and Maus accepted, more or less, as 'literature,' I think we are going to see these boundaries lessen and lessen.

While I try not to draw any kind of distinction between "genre fiction" and "literature" simply because of a category someone else may impose on it, I'm not sure that its any different to draw a distinction between "comic books" and "literature," assuming, of course that the work in question is of a high enough standard technically and intellectually to warrant discussion or mention. I apologize for the digression here but I did want to justify my inclusion fo the example without trying to send the conversation off topic.

Back to the topic at hand, however, I believe I cited my Shining Knight example as an example of the assumptions involved in gender roles. Which made it a relevant example for this (as relevant as citing a film or a television episode if it related to the conversation), especially if we think of gender role as more of a continuum (the word I can never spell right) or as some weird kind of graph, essentially, anything to get away from the all of nothing idea of masculine-feminine becaue this is existing less and less in our culture (and, really, things that fall entirely in to one of these categories are seen as nostalgic and quaint at best).

But even outside the paradigm of transformation of gender, if we want to look at the ways in which gender roles are queered, its important to also look at the ways in which they are constructed and the masculine and feminine expectations, even in terms of hyper-masculine and hyper-feminine roles that may seem either like overcompensation or as offensive or politically incorrect. The image of the Desparate Housewife (and whether you want to go down the Baudrillard route and say that the image has now become the reality is another matter or talk about the "normalization of psychopathy" that J. G. Ballard mentions) is every bit as much a deceptive image as Viola in Twelfth Night, its just that one of them is less threatening to people because it challenges their expectations and assumptions less, even though it might actually be the one more dangerous to society in general.

These are not just limited to roles for "females," there are "male" examples as well.

Just a couple from the top of my head:

Rupert Everett not being cast as James Bond because he is gay. He has played straight characters in movies in the past the same way straight actors have played gay characters. But the idea of James Bond

The backlash against "gay cowboys" in Brokeback Mountain from segments of the population who somehow see the use of this image as sacrelige.

The way that images of police officers in the media are changing. Police officers are no longer supposed to rough up suspects or let abusive husbands go or take the law in to their own hands. Traditonally masculine and violence roles.
In L. A. Confidential (mostly talking about the movie though this is fairly true in the book as well), the thuggish Bud White is seen as more of the ideal while Ed Exley is seen as kind of a sketchy character who rises through the ranks by ambition instead of merit. The book was set in the 1950s and written in 1990 (well thats the copyright date).
But fast forward a few years later. Elliot Stabler on law and order SVU is a policeman in the bud white mold. And the show is starting to reach almost silly lengths to avoid him having a meltdown because what he does is so antithetical to the things expected of a police officer. While Gil Grissom on CSI is seen closer to an idealized role. He fights crime with his brain instead of his fists and thats good, the complete opposite of L. A. Confidential.

And to take it back to literature, almosmt any male role in Angels in America (and most of the female roles) could be seen through this paradigm.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
14:46 / 21.03.06
Ganesh: It's (I think) the third of Highsmith's Ripley books, The Boy Who Followed Ripley. Features several scenes in Berlin, wherein Ripley goes to frankly ridiculous lengths to 'pass' as female in order to rescue a young male protege from a gang of kidnappers.

Sounds like a Nancy Drew book.

Nolan: So it came down to changing biological sex at various points in the book or being some sort of mutant alien creature.

Probably a bit more literal than I'd take it, mostly because I prefer magic realist thinking to fantastical (on one hand they're the same thing, on the other I'd associate a lack of explanation as "magic realist"). Once I stopped specifically reading the book with Winterson in mind (which was difficult to do given how specific and identifiable her style is), I started to simply put the narrator in a completely neutral state. I like the idea of hir being in constant flux (which sort of blurs hir and contributes to the ambiguity).

I think I tend to favour The Powerbook as a specifically gender-shifting (rather than gender neutral) text, partially because of the self-determination aspect of it. Ali makes a choice to portray their relationship in various forms and various bodies, there's a piling up and multiplicity of gender/sexuality/identity rather than the languid sexlessness (but still sexually arousing) of Written on the Body's narrator. They work for me as matter/anti-matter twins.

But, at the same time, and this is meant with absolutely no offense intended, I'm not sure that it does either literature or comics a favour to draw a line in the sand in some way. And, it seems that even people who like comics and know their comics fairly well do this

True, but for the purposes of Barbelith they've been seperated out. Doesn't mean the Comics doesn't welcome a lot of (over) analysis -- example being all the Seven Soldiers threads where Cassandra, Mario, me, et al dissect and analyze the hell out of things. Ideally, this thread would exist in "both worlds," but it can't and I'm not sure how much clear poster habit overlap there is between these two fora. This doesn't make the Comics a second-class citizen, it merely recognizes that it's a different medium with a different language.

Hrm. I just started to think about Written on the Body as reflecting/distorting Michael Chabon's Mysteries of Pittsburgh, where the lead character's maleness is constant and concrete but his sexual desire begins to blossom into ambiguity (he spends half the novel in love with a woman and the second half in love with a man). More on that once I've had a chance to work through this in my head.
 
 
Crestmere
05:42 / 22.03.06
Fast Reply. Sorry, I'm about to go to bed. I'll write something more detailed soon.

I think that using a magical realist or fantasy paradigm can add a lot of dimension to works. And I think that we can see that with Written on teh Body.

I didn't mean to drag something in. I merely mentioned something that I felt was also relevant to the subject.

My point that any discussion on gender roles would require looking at images that might be a bit less then politically incorrect sitll stands.
 
 
Ganesh
17:03 / 22.03.06
Sounds like a Nancy Drew book.

With cross-dressing. Not necessarily a Bad Thing...
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
04:28 / 23.03.06
Mabel Maney wrote a bunch of queered Nancy Drew and Hardy Boys books. Nancy Clue & Hardly Boys, if I recall recorrectly.

As well, I'm still working on my crossdressing crossover ND/HB novella.
 
 
Crestmere
08:12 / 23.03.06
Papers--I have the James Bond book she did too. No idea how it got around copyright issues though.

She does an interesting job of taking all of the same characteristics that are associated with the "classic" James Bond (which is about the msot hypermasculine role there is) and turning them on their head for some really cool statements on gender roles in spy fiction.

My real problem with the book was that it lacked all the gadgets that James Bond always had, a minor complaint though.

BTW, this post gave me the coolest idea for a story that speaks about gender roles as a pastiche of popular culture. Get ready for the book guys (I'm leaning towards a comic though both for my general writing style and because I think that comics might be more welcoming of a project like this) because it'll be really cool.

Thanks a bunch.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
19:46 / 28.03.06
Has anyone in here read "Lorenzo the Closet-Queen," an article Angela Carter wrote about D.H. Lawrence writing Women in Love wearing metaphorical drag, and his overwrought obsessions with women's clothing ("D.H. Lawrence catalogues his heroine's wardrobes with the loving care of a ladies' maid."), and particularly the stocking? "Stockings, stocking, stockings everywhere...[but] never the suggestion the fabric masks, upholsters, disguises living, subversive flesh."

How often is shifting gender treated in literature as dripping concern over the accoutrements of gender (ie, the clothing) without consideration for the biological component inherent in a magical transformation, or even as a replacement? I.E. how often do we see a man menstruating for the first time compared to more social/visual presentations? Or a man writing about a woman menstruating in close narration as opposed to simply specifying that Ursula wears canary stockings, "Defiant, brilliant, emphatic stockings" -- ?
 
 
This Sunday
20:27 / 28.03.06
Just a short note, but proper James Bond never really had all the showy gadgets in full force. A bottomless chair and a good swinging board of wood did the trick. Or, y'know, just shooting someone.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
21:16 / 06.05.06
I'm afraid i'm just going to throw in a few random examples off the top of my head for more able people to discuss here, rather than really making or responding to coherent points... mainly because i haven't read many of the books referenced so far on this thread (but probably should, since this is a topic that interests me)...

I.E. how often do we see a man menstruating for the first time compared to more social/visual presentations?

I read a sci-fi short story once (yet another one i can't remember the title or author of) where the main persecuted/minority group in a future society were hermaphrodites (think it was some sort of "next step in evolution" a la X-Men kind of deal). In the story, an eminent hermaphrodite scientist, inventor of lots of revolutionary eco-design and new food source stuff, is assassinated, but his colleagues get revenge by putting his last discovery into the food supplies - a chemical that transforms everyone into hermaphrodites... there's a rather graphic depiction of an anti-herm bigot unexpectedly experiencing "his" first period...

On ambiguity: i'm reminded of Marge Piercy's Woman on the Edge of Time (a book every Barbelith-type person should read, if they haven't already), where Connie (the 20th century, female, Mexican-American protagonist) assumes that Luciente (the visitor to her from a possible utopian version of the future) is male because of male signifiers, such as clothing, but also attitudes like social confidence, and only becomes aware that ze is female through accidentally coming into physical contact with hir breasts - then immediately leaps to the assumption that Luciente is a "dyke", despite Luciente having said that ze "had mostly liked males" (which had made Connie assume ze was a gay man)...

Then there's Ursula Le Guin's The Left Hand of Darkness, set on a planet where everyone is dual-gendered (functionally hermaphrodite), but asexual and mentally gender-neutral for most of the month, only becoming sexually "receptive" and taking on one gender or the other (everyone can "become" either male or female, and be impregnated when female) for a few days a month, equivalent to menstruation...

And, as i just referenced in the "Cthulhu" thread in the film forum, HPL's "The Thing On The Doorstep", in which the evil magician character, to avoid/cheat old age, body-swaps with his own daughter, so becoming a male mind in an "inferior" (for magical purposes, in HPL's rather misogynistic/gynophobic cosmology) female body, then woos the male protagonist using a put-on straight female gender/sexuality identity in order to obtain a male body again (which gender-biased "rules" of magic remind me a bit of the exploration of such (as thinly veiled satire of anti-trans, separatist "nature feminism") in "Sandman: A Game Of You")...

hmmm, i'm sure i can think of a few other characters or societies of ambiguous or shifting gender in books i've read... will go and look thru my bookshelf...

That thing with Tip/Ozma in the Oz book (which i really vaguely remember from my childhood... thought i was the only one who ever read the Oz sequels) has interesting parallels to Eugenides (and of course real life transsexual/intersex people's experiences) when stated like that...
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
23:16 / 06.05.06
Iain (with an M.) Banks sf Culture series describe a society in which changing sex (and a whole host of other bodily transformations) is, quite literally, as easy as thinking, albeit with a few months time lag. He doesn't usually make a big thing out of it, although in a couple of places (for instance, the short story A Gift From The Culture, part of the compilation The State of the Art) it's central, generally where the characters deal with places less enlightened than the Culture proper. Otherwise, a very upbeat portrayal of total acceptance.

Mary Gentle's Ash and 1610 (and presumably Ilario, as the eponymous hero is hermaphrodite) have gender ambiguity, deception, and gender role discussion against historical backdrops; pretty much what you'd expect. Her characters tend to find a place somewhere or other, so I guess I'd call them upbeat portrayals as well, despite the nastiness of the background.

On a more mythological note, if memory serves me rightly, there's a nasty little episode in the Mabinogion in which two fellows get cursed to spend a long time (at a wild guess, some multiple of seven years) in the guise of deer (or some other woodland critter) one as male and one as female, alternating every now and then. I believe it was to teach them a lesson for some transgression or other, the composer presumably viewing being on the female end of sex as a punishment. Nice, huh? Think it was in the Mab., at any rate, I'll dig it out if anyone cares.
 
  

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