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Ambiguous & Transformative

 
  

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Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
19:19 / 07.03.06
Most inspired by alas opening up the thread for Woolf's A Room of One's Own, I thought we should maybe open up a thread discussing instances of gender transformation and gender neutrality in literature. Not necessarily realistic fiction with direct trans issues, although that can certainly be in the mandate (Eugenides's Middlesex, for example), I'm thinking more along the lines of magic realist, and fantastical fiction where gender is treated as a fluid concept.

In light of Woolf, I'm thinking we could discuss anything from Orlando, wherein the titular character starts out male and then becomes female with very little to-do.

Kathy Acker's stories often revolve around rewriting historical males as women (Don Juan and Toulouse Lautrec for example). Someone also mentioned rewriting some of Lovecraft's stories with explicitly female narrators extrapolated from the (presumably WASPy) male narrators.

I was going to start with maybe a dip into gender neutrality, given the discussions over in the Head Shop - my example being Jeanette Winterson's Written on the Body, wherein the narrator is written without nod to either gender with any degree of specification, as ze undertakes an affair with a married woman. Winterson achieves gender neutrality without losing the sensuality and substance of being human, which makes me think we should start there.

This thread opening could probably be a bit more coherent, but I feel like throwing some things out and seeing what happens. Anyone have any shifting gender stories they like? There's all those classic myths as well to start from.
 
 
alas
00:12 / 08.03.06
I like the idea of going back further in history, to myth--or even just to all those Shakespeare plays involving, at least, strategic cross-dressing, which, when coupled with the awareness that it was all men playing women during his time, makes for such interesting complexities.

It occurs to me that it's too bad that the Hebrew/Christian Bible doesn't seem, as far as I'm aware, to have any gender-crossing, gender-playful characters (maybe Deborah, the judge somewhere in, ummm, Judges I think?) But maybe someone who's more aware of the Bible, the apocrypha, and/or the midrash than I can show me something more hopeful....
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
00:37 / 08.03.06
There were quite a few references to males in drag in Shakespeare's actual plays, weren't there? Riffing on the fact that the women really were boys in drag...the only one I can think of is Thisbe's story from A Midsummer Night's Dream...

The Shakespearean element works with what I was thinking about the strangeness of the Bronte Sisters. They all published under male pseudonyms, but they were the Bell Brothers: Emily became Ellis, Charlotte became Currer, and Anne became Acton. The expansiveness of the charade, having a whole trio of brothers, seems peculiarly careful. I sort of imagine they invented histories for the three brothers.

Greek myth has quite a few examples of gender transformation - Hermaphrodite/us, for example, a man who merged with his lover to become both. Caenis (sp?) was a woman raped by Poseidon, who deigned to grant her a wish - that she could never be violated that way again. He turned her into an invulnerable man. Teiresias is probably the most obvious.

Early gender shifting stories always strike me as an attempt to comment on, at least, the disparities between male and female experience, at least in the beginning - the lack a shared language between the two. Teiresias went along those lines, if I remember my Ovid - something about Jupiter/Zeus and Hera having an argument over it. Of course, gender's much more complex than the binary, but I think that might be where the stories initially came from. Does that make sense or horribly miss the point? I'm not sure.
 
 
matthew.
02:48 / 08.03.06
A short distillation of my essay for a course on James Joyce's Ulysses. Changed to be more informal, of course, and less stiff (ha).

In Circe, in Ulysses, Bloom has a hallucination (maybe) and visits a "whoremistress" named Bella. As soon as Bella is introduced, Bloom becomes a sow:
"His eyes grow dull, darker and pouched, his nose thickens"

Bella is described as:
"a massive whoremistress, enters. She is dressed in a threequarter ivory gown, fringed round the hem with tasselled selvedge, and cools herself flirting a black horn fan like Minnie Hauck in Carmen. On her left hand are wedding and keeper rings. Her eyes are deeply carboned. She has a sprouting moustache. Her olive face is heavy, slightly sweated and fullnosed, with orangetainted nostrils. She has large pendant beryl eardrops."

The "eardrops" (AKA earrings) are so obviously phallic that I almost don't want to point it out. Bella is a manly woman, in that she has a moustache, she's sweaty, whatever.

Bloom in this sequence, becomes a sow because he gave up his shrivelled old potato (the herb given to Odysseus by Hermes to protect against Circe). The play gives Bloom's dialogue like this:
"BLOOM (Closing her eyes.) She's not here. "
Notice how Bloom is "she".

Then, Bella turns into:
"BELLO (His heavy cheekchops sagging.) Adorer of the adulterous rump!"
She's a "he"!

Bloom becomes a womanly man. His marriage to Molly, a very womanly woman, is imbalanced. He's half a woman, and she's a whole woman; for two people in a marriage, that makes one and a half woman! So Bello is the perfect psychosexual mate for Bloom. He even realizes this and instantly upon meeting Bella bows down and submits to her dominance (and that sentence is supposed to be as kinky as it sounds).

Circe is the confession of Joyce's own personal fetishes and perversions. There are numerous examples in his own letters to his estranged wife in which he pauses while writing a fantasy and makes a point of noting the pause, eg. "O, I feel much better after that".

Critics seem to forget that while Joyce is Stephen Dedalus, he is also Leopold Bloom (named after the author of Venus in Furs...)
 
 
Sax
08:23 / 08.03.06
It's a goodly while since I read it, and someone here might have a fresher recollection, but one of Hemingway's last (possibly his final?) novel, the Garden of Eden, does touch upon the theme. It's about a writer (David?) and his wife (possibly Catherine) who enter into a menage-a-trois/tug of love with the requisite mysterious (female) stranger they come across (ho ho) on holiday in Europe. Catherine has, I recall, some "confusion" about her sexuality and in one scene cuts her hair very short and says something like: "I'm a girl but now I'm a boy, too" and claims to be able to switch between her girl-persona and boy-persona. Can't quite recall what happens, other than the writer gets the mysterious girl, at least for a time, and the couple split up.
 
 
This Sunday
08:44 / 08.03.06
Off the top of my head:

Shakespeare's 'As You Like It' (otherwise known as his best play, ever) has an amusing consideration of young girls dragged up as young lads, swearing on their beards to avoid actually swearing, et cetera.

Nabokov's 'Ada, or Ardor' plays with identity a good bit, including a merging of its protagonist and his wife/co-author as 'vaniada' (that's Van and Ada, presumably, the 'i' being something like, oh, 'Van y Ada' or such, but with a central 'I' sublimation as well), and having the end of a man's life scripted by the wife of his editor or somesuch.

Raymond Chandler, essentially, invented the lipstick librarian, which is, quite strongly, merely the 'man of letters' or classic, male secretary, done up in very sharp drag.

'Wuthering Heights' and 'I am Heathcliff!'

There are, moving from modern fictions to myths, tendencies in Norse stories of old, to ungender, regender or make multiplicity of their gods. Frig(ga) is, variously, a brother and wife, while Odin is often spontaneous parent, depending on whose translations you trust, what versions they're tapping, and so on and so on.

Acker's 'Pussy' makes women of much of the cast of 'Treasure Island' and other novels.

Somewhere in Sade... I'm pretty sure it's 'Justine', a sort of assistant to a royal-type, also his lover, insists that he is a better woman than the physically female character (who may, again, be Justine, but may be someone else), on account of his reactions to the male sex outdoing hers. It's an interesting idea, even if I don't give it much credence in actual application.

Much of 'Finnegans Wake' is given over to Joyce's cataloging and considering various ambiguities, perversions, and extensions of sexuality and gender, including the basics of outright transgender, hetero and homosexual inclinations, and moving through S&M, voyeurism, getting off on watching or listening to other people pissing, bestiality, and some massive psychosexual lusterror response to GOD.

William Burroughs had quite a bit of gender swapping in with his other forms of mutation, mutilation, and general body trade(s). Growth and development of new, nonhuman sexual organs and positions in life, come up in 'The Ticket That Exploded' and elsewhere. Interestingly, unlike a lot of writers, Burroughs tends to default a genderless state as male. Both seem a little silly, if not un-workable, but there is a marked habit in many folks, of positing that a genderless or neutral state is highly femme.
 
 
elene
12:48 / 08.03.06
Papers mentions Ovid, but surely the pre-eminent exploration of this theme in classical literature is the work of Gaius Valerius Catullus, namely the 63rd Song (Attis). This is C.H. Sisson's translation of Carmen 63 from The Poetry of Catullus, (New York: Orion, 1967), but there are many other versions to be found on the web.

Carried in a fast ship over profound seas
Attis, eager and hurried, reached the Phrygian grove,
The goddess's dark places, crowned with woodland.
And there, exalted by amorous rage, his mind gone,
He cut off his testicles with a sharp flint.
While the ground was still spotted with fresh blood
Quickly took in her snowy hands a tambourine
Such as serves your initiates, Cybele, instead of a trumpet,
And shaking the hollow calf-hide with delicate fingers,
Quivering, she began to sing to the troop this:
"Go together, votaresses, to the high groves of Cybele.
Go together, wandering herd of the lady of Dindymus.
Quick into exile, you looked for foreign places
And, following me and the rule I had adopted,
You bore with the salt tide and the violence of the high sea
And emasculated your bodies from too much hatred of Venus:
Delight the lady's mind with your errant haste.
Overcome your reluctance: together
Go to the Phrygian shrine of Cybele, to her groves
Where the voice of cymbals sounds, the tambourines rattle,
Where the Phrygian piper sings with the deep curved pipe,
Where Maenads wearing ivy throw back their heads,
Where they practice the sacred rites with sharp yells.
Where they flutter around the goddess's cohort:
It is there we must go with our rapid dances."
As Attis, the counterfeit woman, sang this to her companions,
The choir howled suddenly with tumultuous tongues.
The tambourine bellows, the cymbals clash again;
The swift troop moves off to Ida with hurrying feet.
Crazy, panting, drifting, at her last gasp,
Attis with her tambourine leads them through the opaque groves
Like an unbroken heifer refusing the yoke:
The swift votaresses follow their swift-footed leader.
When they reach Cybele's shrine, feeble and worn,
From too much toil they take their rest without bread (Ceres).
Sleep covers their eyes with a heavy blanket;
Their rabid madness subsides to a girlish quiet.
But when the golden sun with his streaming eyes
Purified the white sky, hard land, wild sea,
And drove away the shadows of night with his thundering horses,
Attis was aroused and Sleep went quickly from her
Back to the trembling arms of the goddess Pasithea.
Then from her girlish quiet, with no hurrying madness,
Attis remembered what she had done
And saw in her lucid mind what was missing and where she was.
Tempestuously she turned back to the shore.
There, looking at the open sea with tearful eyes,
With grief in her voice she addressed her native land:
"Land which begot me, land which brought me forth,
I am abject to abandon you like a runaway slave.
My feet have carried me to the groves of Ida
To be among snow in the cold lairs of wild beasts;
I shall visit their violent haunts.
Where, O my land, can I imagine you are?
My eye desires you and narrows as it turns toward you
In this short interval when my mind is unfrenzied.
Shall I be carried to the forests, from my far-off home?
Away from country, goods, friends, family?
From the Forum, palaestra, racecourse, and gymnasium?
There is nothing for me but misery.
What shape is there that I have not had?
A woman now, I have been man, youth, and boy;
I was athlete, the wrestler.
There were crowds round my door, my fans slept on the doorstep;
There were flowers all over the house
When I left my bed at sunrise.
Shall I be a waiting maid to the gods, the slave of Cybele?
I a Maenad, I a part of myself, I impotent?
Shall I live above the snow line on green Ida?
Shall I pass my life under the rocky peaks of Phrygia
Where the doe runs in the woods, where the boar mooches in the glade?
I regret now, now, what I have done, I repent of it, now!"
As these words hurried away from her pink lips,
Bringing a new message to the ears of the gods,
Cybele, letting her lions off the leash
And urging forward the beast on the left hand,
Said,"Get on, be fierce, see that he's driven mad;
Make him insane enough to return to the forest
He has had the impertinence to want to be out of my power.
Come on, lash around with your tail till you hurt yourself:
Make the whole neighborhood ring with your bellowing roar.
Be fierce, shake the red mane on your muscular neck."
Thus the threatening Cybele, and she wound the leash round her hand.
The beast stirs up his courage and rouses himself to fury.
He is off, he roars, he breaks up the undergrowth.
When he came to the wet sand on the whitening shore
And saw tender Attis by the waters of the sea,
He charged: Attis, mad, flew into the wild woods:
There, for the rest of her life, she lived as a slave.
Great Goddess, Goddess Cybele, Goddess lady of Dindymus,
May all your fury be far from my house.
Incite the others, go. Drive other men mad.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
17:05 / 08.03.06
Angela Carter's Passion of the New Eve has a man transform into a woman, not that I've read it yet.

Matthesis: Bloom becomes a womanly man. His marriage to Molly, a very womanly woman, is imbalanced. He's half a woman, and she's a whole woman; for two people in a marriage, that makes one and a half woman! So Bello is the perfect psychosexual mate for Bloom. He even realizes this and instantly upon meeting Bella bows down and submits to her dominance (and that sentence is supposed to be as kinky as it sounds).

Joyce seems from what you say to use the gender-swap as a way of reinforcing a relationship between masculinity and femininity within, well, relationships; or he's sugar-coating the idea of a submissive male. Circe is, traditionally, a transformative character and I like that he becomes a sow as Ulysses's men did when they met Circe.

Sax: Intriguing, given Hemingway's themes of masculinity. How is the writer's reaction to her boy-persona?

Descrescent: Acker's 'Pussy' makes women of much of the cast of 'Treasure Island' and other novels.

Pussy is probably one of my favourite books, and partly this is due to the recursive nature of the text - it's made up of all these little stories which seem to mirror each other at times, building out of each other and curving back into earlier sections. This makes it feel very mythic to me, which goes back to the early gender fluidity of myth.

elene: The phrase The goddess's dark places is beautiful and holds an appealing double entendre. The castration element is interesting, and the madness behind it -- the sexual frenzy intrigues me. It's almost. Huh. "We can not penetrate the divine. Other way around."

Hmm. I considering a couple questions to throw out there in a while.
 
 
elene
19:13 / 08.03.06
It's almost. Huh. "We can not penetrate the divine. Other way around."

Yes, I think it says one can enter the divine only as the divine will accept one. The castrated Attis is trapped in hir fate like Medea, pinned in the gap between male and female, flickering uncertainly between one and the other, refusing his manhood but also refusing Cybele, trapped in a foreign place in an alien world. One must surrender everything. Catullus realises this and is full of dread.
 
 
*
21:29 / 08.03.06
For Catullus, Cybele may have symbolized 'Lesbia' in how thoroughly she unmans and controls him. Certainly some have chosen to read it that way. For me it's more interesting without that interpretation; I like to think that as much as I like Catullus' Lesbia poetry, he wasn't entirely one-note.

Ovid's Metamorphoses really cannot be overlooked here, particularly in light of stories like that of Iphis and Ianthe (I found a flash movie retelling of it here).
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
01:15 / 09.03.06
I really need to pull the Ovid out again.

Beautiful descriptions of the Attis story, and I want to explore that further. I'll consult some wiki articles on Cybele and remind myself (wasn't Cybele referenced in Promethea at some point?).

I'm tempted to a companion thread over in the Comics, but I'm not sure if it's worth splitting the focus.

Anyway: How often is gender transformation a positive event in these stories, and how often is it a punishment or negative experience? Does it relate to initiation in some way?
 
 
Bubblegum Death
01:38 / 09.03.06
I just finished reading the "Marvelous Land of Oz" online the other day. At the end, the main character, Tip(a boy) is transformed into the Princess Ozma. He is reluctant to do so, because he doesn't want to be a girl; but since he'll still be the same Tip inside, he decides to go ahead and be transformed.

Earlier in the book, there's also a rather disturbing parody of the woman's liberation movement.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
03:28 / 09.03.06
What's the reason behind Tip turning into Ozma? Is there a prophecy or has something happened that requires him to become her?
 
 
Bubblegum Death
04:19 / 09.03.06
When the Wizard became ruler of Oz, he gave the infant Ozma(the rightful heir to the throne) to the witch Mombi. She turned Ozma into Tip, and when the story starts; all we know is that Tip is an orphan raised by Mombi.

Tip and his compatriots enlist Glinda the Good Witch's help to retake the Emerald City from Jinjur and her army. They can only do this if they find the rightful ruler: Ozma.
 
 
Bubblegum Death
04:23 / 09.03.06
If anyone's interested, you can read the book at wikisource. It's not very long.
 
 
This Sunday
04:54 / 09.03.06
Some great bits with Tip returning to Ozma.

Glinda insists that since he is innately a she, there's no way she can not turn Tip back into Ozma. Tip's used to being a boy and would rather not. There's an odd choice vs nature argument.

Jack points out, if Tip becomes a girl, e couldn't be his father any longer. Semantically true, but more importantly, this promotes the idea to Tip, as it would get him out of some annoying responsibility.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
05:14 / 09.03.06
Huh. Transman forced to stop taking testosterone.

Intriguing that Tip is given the choice, but also that he views Ozma as alien/other (from what you've said, haven't clicked over yet) despite being the same person; the only difference being what she was as a baby and what he is grown up. Interesting implications of hermaphrodites who are "assigned" at birth to save confusion. Does his personality abruptly change with the transformation?
 
 
Sax
06:33 / 09.03.06
Sax: Intriguing, given Hemingway's themes of masculinity. How is the writer's reaction to her boy-persona?

It's probably about 18 years since I read it, in a flurry of Hemingway, but it does stand out as markedly more sensitive (if that word can still be used on Barbelith) than Pappa's usual two-fisted work... although, if you read stuff like A Farewell To Arms there's also a goodly deal of (for him) sensitivity in that. I do recall reading an article in which, when Garden of Eden came out, it was slammed as "effeminate" by one reviewer who was a little perplexed at this new Hemingway.
 
 
elene
11:19 / 09.03.06
Yes id, I too think it's quite likely that Cybele is Clodia, but I also think his experience with her is leading him into a much more frightening and exotic place in the Attis. Does this mean he feels Clodia's emasculating him? Is that what he fears? I do think the poem is really unique. I was however quite wrong to put it above all others and I must get out a copy of the Metamorphoses.

SPOILERS:

I must also look for my copy of Angela Carter's Passion Of New Eve as this thread really ought to contain a discussion of that book too. I've not read it in ages though. It's very direct and rather heavy-handed, though back when I read it was just about right (for me). The (anti-)hero/heroine Evelyn adores the mysterious film actress Tristessa, who it eventually turns out is a transvestite, a fantasy woman, and at the same time coldly mistreats the real women in his life. By the end of the book the new Eve has learned what the romantic world really means for a woman and has accepted a life as one, without accepting the masochistic fantasy of what a woman is that she had before. I think. There's a lot more to it. It's not subtle, but it hit me like a hammer when I was about twenty, and I think it's probably still well worth reading.

Who's read Written on the Body (everyone)? Is it as good as its title?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
15:11 / 09.03.06
I've not read it in ages, but it's one of Winterson's best works - occasionally, one feels as though she is writing the same novel over and over again, and I think she's even admitted as much, but I can't remember where the interview I saw that was from, and if it even exists.

I think I tend to prefer Sexing the Cherry, but Written on the Body does a solid job of obscuring gender without rupturing the language in any harmful way....
 
 
*
16:42 / 09.03.06
It's a pretty shallow reading, but I think I agree that emasculation in the Catullus poem is being used as an analogy for loss of place in society, which was so close to loss of selfhood in Greek culture. The Ates cut themselves (eheh) out of society, and this was a really terrifying thing. I'm not sure how that theme relates to the loss of control he seems to have felt due to his passion for Clodia, though— except that passion like this could be seen as an antisocial force, since it compels him to act against his own interests and those of society.

Incidentally, the gallae were the topic of my undergraduate thesis, so I have a little information about them, if you're interested. Primary sources which I used to vaying degrees included 'Lucian's' De Dea Syria, Ovid's Fasti, Strabo's Geography, Livy's Ab Urbe Conditia Libri, Pausanias' Description of Greece, and a few of the epigrams of Martial, among others. If you'd like the full works cited, feel free to find it along with the thesis itself here. (pdf format document, some 88 pages of undergraduate writing, recommend you skip to the sources/works cited pages)

I have been meaning to get to Jeannette Winterson for awhile now. I'll have to take the next opportunity which presents itself.
 
 
This Sunday
17:07 / 09.03.06
Tip in the Oz book was very much still Tip, but a better Tip than Tip. Much like Heinlein's Andrew Libby was simply a much better Andrew Libby, once she was Elizabeth. Though the sudden rise to Ruler of All Things Oz, might have something to do with it.
To clarify and position some things, the backdrop here is that General Jinjur has gathered up loads of irate, put-upon, and sometimes just excitable, women from around Oz, and they've taken over. When Tip is to be transformed into Ozma, it's also noted that Ozma would have to take over and rule Oz. Tip, being inclined to duck out of responsibilities, suggests they just let Jinjur do it. Ozma,on the other hand, can do her job like an adult - even if she isn't one, particularly.

Hey, that's it right on the head and I didn't even know I was hitting the nail! In both the above-cited cases, it is the female they become who can act, who can take initiative, while the male is reactive at best, and frequently just ducks out.
 
 
elene
17:28 / 09.03.06
Thanks id, I am interested in the gallae, though until now I've never tried to learn more of them. So the origins of the cult can be traced to Sumer and Innana! I've got to run now but I’ll definitely finish reading this tomorrow.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
17:28 / 09.03.06
ID: I have been meaning to get to Jeannette Winterson for awhile now. I'll have to take the next opportunity which presents itself.

I've heard her criticized by one of my fiction profs for foregrounding her lesbianism too much, but I tend to think that's the result of a very straight prof who doesn't need to foreground her sexuality (or is simply used to heteronormativity). Actually, now that I think about it, The Powerbook is another good example of gender-shifting in Winterson's work; it's about an on-line story-teller seducing a beloved and telling hir stories about them, sprawling romances that treat their particular genders as flexible (sometimes ze's a man, sometimes a woman, sometimes the other way around, sometimes both are women). Winterson writes explicitly about sexuality in a modestly magical way, and her frame of reference is her queerness. It's inescapable, and her background growing up leads to a lot of reasons why she explores it so much.

Art Objects is her collection of short essays, one of which is "The Semiotics of Sex," including the issue of queer writers having the queer foregrounded (and has a nice bit about whether or not we're actually supposed to like queer authors just because they're also queer, when we might not have anything in common stylistically or subject matter wise).

The Powerbook is highly recommended, and it occurs to me that it's slightly relevant to Barbelith and general online interaction. The Writer (I think hir name was Ali) composes stories about the two lovers that constantly shifts setting, genre, and gender (and includes a lovely bit of cross-dressing to smuggle tulip bulbs in as cock-and-balls), but also imposes genders upon the seduced in doing so. I think this kind of relates to what Deva says about gender as interactive over in the Head Shop's Feminism/Discourse/Rationality/Debate thread.

Daytripper: Hey, that's it right on the head and I didn't even know I was hitting the nail! In both the above-cited cases, it is the female they become who can act, who can take initiative, while the male is reactive at best, and frequently just ducks out.

Possibly in allowing the gender transformation, both characters integrate with their lost animas (previously denied) and become full people? Not that I subscribe to the Joseph Campbell "hero's journey" crud, which always felt woefully incapable of handling queerness and reduced everything to the same story.

Integration with higher selves...

With Ozma I'd go out on an a limb and assume this has something to do with her dominating royalty genes kicking in. Also, it sounds like Jinjur serves as a role model for Tip in becoming Ozma and trying to rework Oz. If he has to do the work, it's best if he makes himself as much like Jinjur as possible (ie, a woman) to pull off the sympathy magic.
 
 
*
20:31 / 09.03.06
Elene, I wouldn't make that statement so strongly, yet— I'd say there's a reasonable argument for it, but we're weak on archaeological evidence.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:44 / 13.03.06
I'm surprised no-one's mentioned Tiresias yet...
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
15:53 / 13.03.06
Actually, I did mention hir, but didn't go much deeper with it. Want to talk about hir more? It's been a few years and ze's the obvious one.
 
 
elene
16:20 / 13.03.06
I only remembered encountering Tiresias in the literature as a blind, and possibly long dead old man, who turns up and to say, "this land is sick and it's Oedipus’s fault," or, "it's a long way home, if you're lucky, and that's not nearly the half of it," or something similar, but of course Ovid's got the juicy bits.

Ovid - Metamorphoses(book III) trans. Arthur Golding

Now while these things were done on earth, and that by fatal doome
The twice born Bacchus had a tyme to mannes estate to come:
They say that Jove disposde to myrth as he and Juno sate
A drinking Nectar after meate in sport and pleasant rate,
Did fall a jeasting with his wife, and saide: a greater pleasure
In Venus games ye women have than men beyonde all measure.
She answerde no. To trie the truth, they both of them agree
The wise Tyresias in this case indifferent judge to bee,
Who both the man and womans joyes by tryall understood.
For finding once two mightie Snakes engendring in a Wood,
He strake them overthwart the backs, by meanes thereof beholde
(As straunge a thing to be of truth as ever yet was tolde)
He being made a woman straight, seven winter lived so.
The eight he finding them againe did say unto them tho:
And if to strike ye have such powre as for to turne their shape
That are the givers of the stripe, before you hence escape,
One stripe now will I lende you more. He strake them as beforne
And straight returnd his former shape in which he first was borne.
Tyresias therefore being tane to judge this jesting strife,
Gave sentence on the side of Jove. The which the Queene his wife
Did take a great deale more to heart than needed, and in spight
To wreake hir teene upon hir Judge, bereft him of his sight.
But Jove (for to the Gods it is unleeful to undoe
The things which other of the Gods by any meanes have doe)
Did give him sight in things to come for losse of sight of eye,
And so his grievous punishment with honour did supplie.
By meanes whereof within a while in Citie, fielde, and towne
Through all the coast of Aony was bruited his renowne.
And folke to have their fortunes read that dayly did resorte,
Were aunswerde so as none of them could give him misreporte.
The first that of his soothfast wordes has proufe in all the Realme,
Was freckled Lyriop, whom sometime surprised in his streame,
The floud Cephisus did enforce. This Lady bare a sonne
Whose beautie at his verie birth might justly love have wonne.
Narcissus did she call his name. Of whom the Prophet sage
Demaunded if the childe should live to many yeares of age,
Made aunswere, yea full long, so that him selfe he doe not know.
The Soothsayers wordes seemde long but vaine, untill the end did show
His saying to be true in deede by straungenesse of the rage,
And straungeness of the kinde of death that did abridge his age.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
17:31 / 13.03.06
Jove & Juno as scientists. "Who takes more pleasure?" Bam, they can find out. I find it intriguing that they themselves don't change genders or otherwise shapeshift in this one; perhaps, as Gods, their divine nature overrides any new experiences they could have in other shapes. They can't stop being themselves in the right way to actually compare languages.
 
 
Isadore
20:27 / 15.03.06
That Ovid story about Ianthe and Iphis was really remarkable. I don't recall reading that in the Metamorphoses, which is probably lazy of me; guess I need to get cracking!

The medieval French romance of Silence is a somewhat similar story of a girl raised as a boy, only in this instance, it was with her father's knowledge, in fact, by his command; he needed an heir, and the king had recently disinherited women, a grave injustice.

When the child was old enough
to understand he was a girl,
his father sat down to reason with him
and explain the circumstances
which had led them to conceal his identity this way.
"If, dear son, King Evan knew
what we are doing with you,
your share of our earthly possessions
would be very small indeed.
For the king, dear son, disinherited
all the women of England
on account of the death of two counts
in a battle they fought
over twin heiresses they had married.
Dear sweet precious son, we are not doing this
for ourselves, but for you.
Now, son, you know the whole situation.
As you cherish honor,
you will continue to conceal yourself from everyone."
And he replied very sweetly,
briefly, as befits a well-bred child,
"Don't worry the least bit.
So help me God, I will do it.
I will conceal myself from everyone."

The story itself is quite archetypical and lovely. Silence runs off with evil travelling merchants for a while, then eventually, after reuniting with his family, becomes a knight; the Queen falls in love with him, and in revenge for Silence's refusal to sleep with her, claims that Silence has raped her. Silence, of course, cannot defend himself from these charges without revealing that he is, in fact, a woman, thereby giving up his patrimony. So, since the king cannot kill him, he ends up getting sent on a bunch of strange and dangerous quests, all of which he succeeds in, until at last he fetches Merlin (who could be captured by no man) and Merlin outs him as a her.

There are some marvelous dialogues between Nature and Nurture in the meantime:

In her twelfth year, Nature appeared,
grumbling and complaining and blaming her.
She said to her, "This is a fine state of affairs,
you conducting yourself like a man,
running about in the wind and scorching sun
when I used a special mold for you,
when I created you with my own hands,
when I heaped all the beauty I had stored up
upon you alone!
There are a thousand people who think I'm stingy
because of the beauty I stuffed you with,
for I extracted the beauty of a thousand
to create your lovely appearance!
And there are a thousand women in this world
who are madly in love with you
because of the beauty they see in you --
you don't suppose there's something there
that was never part of your equipment at all?
There are those who love you now
who would hate you with all their hearts
if they knew what you really are!
They would consider themselves misused,
having their hopes so cruelly dashed.
It's a very nasty thing you're doing to me,
leading this sort of life.
You have no business going off into the forest,
jousting, hunting, shooting off arrows.
Desist from all of this!" said Nature.
"Go to a chamber and learn to sew!
That's what Nature's usage wants of you!
You are not Silentius!"

Then, of course, Nurture shows up and gives Silence another lecture, after which --

Then he began to consider
the pastimes of a woman's chamber --
which he had often heard about --
and weighed in his heart of hearts
all female customs against his current way of life,
and saw, in short, that a man's life
was much better than that of a woman.

The ending, however, is supremely lousy. After long and convoluted shenanigans, Silence is outed as a woman, the evil queen is killed, and Silence marries the king in her place. It's horrible to see this strong character end up in the solarium, and, as an ending, feels rather tacked-on, to me at least.
 
 
Cat Chant
13:55 / 18.03.06
On Catullus: Catullus' choice of 'Lesbia' as a pseud for his mistress, as well as his choice of sapphics as the metre (and a translation of a Sappho poem as one of the most famous love-poems to Lesbia) are not coincidental, and I'd argue that Catullus is sapphic in ways that we should take seriously - seriously in an anachronistic way, anachronistically in a serious way, hearing all the modern echoes of 'lesbian' in there.

On Clodia/Cybele, recent work on Latin love elegy suggests that the experience of more-or-less-metaphorical (or perhaps I should say metaphors that are expressed in more or less embodied terms) emasculation is what the love poet desires - that playing at feminine and/or submissive roles is what the poet's after, far more than the specific female 'object' of desire.

And on The Garden of Eden:

Sax: Intriguing, given Hemingway's themes of masculinity. How is the writer's reaction to her boy-persona?

If you're on a university computer with access to JSTOR, search for an article called 'Hemingway's Gender Trouble' which is a good introduction to the way gender plays through Garden of Eden, A Moveable Feast (Hemingway's memoir of Paris) and some unpublished fragments, intertextually. I'll dig it out & summarize it next time I'm on campus.
 
 
*
04:08 / 19.03.06
Deva: Interesting... do you have a reference handy for that interpretation of Carmen 63? I'd wanted to make something like that part of my argument in my thesis but couldn't come up with anything other than gut instinct, so I ended up sticking with the more established interpretation.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
09:47 / 19.03.06
Can't help much with the Ovid and Catullus, but on Hemingway's Garden of Eden...

Sax wrote:

it does stand out as markedly more sensitive (if that word can still be used on Barbelith) than Pappa's usual two-fisted work...

Do you really think so? I read it last year and here is my blog entry on it:

the Garden of Eden, obviously semi-autobiographical, about Bohemian newly weds on the French Riviera. The girl, Catherine, chops off her hair, wears pants and pleads with her writer husband to let her fuck him like a boy. He thinks she's mad or deliberately manipulating him, but he never thinks about why he can't deal with it. (Ernest's male characters never think, of course. They act.) Instead, the plot develops into a power struggle: he tries to write; she tries to distract him by bringing home gorgeous women (at whom she makes passes) and offering them up to him. Finally, after he takes up with the woman she brings home, because she is somewhat more adoring and less demanding than crazy bitch Catherine, Catherine burns his manuscripts in true crazy-bitch style and drives away to Paris. At the end of the novel, this disruption to heterosexist continuity vanquished, writer-husband finds himself in bed with the new ingenue, staring adoringly up at him, and he begins to write again. Much better than before. Of fucking course.

See, it's odd, because the writing of this character Catherine's desire to be a boy is quite stunning. She's ambivalent, hesitating, fierce and very sexual (even if we never find out precisely what 'fucking like a boy' means.) She's full of promises to be good, to be a 'good girl', not to express or let fly her desire. But she can never quite get there. In a way this Catherine is almost proto-trans, a reinventor. And Ernest does write like an angel. But it's been a long time since I read such a transparently -- and proudly -- sexist, homophobic book.


It's definitely more sensitive than his usual gender politics. I heard it's also one of the most autobographical of his novels -- hence its late publication.
 
 
Cat Chant
15:54 / 19.03.06
Mister Disco - to what extent did you think the homophobia/misogyny/transphobia was 'done' (can't think of a better word) by the narrative shape of GoE? I agree that it's profoundly sexist and homophobic, and also that

the writing of this character Catherine's desire to be a boy is quite stunning

and I ended up teaching this book to my students after all, because it seemed to make clear the connection between several slightly different things: gender as a sexual fetish (that 'straight' male/female sex can be denaturalized, can be seen as just as constructed a role-play as, say, daddy/boy or slave/master), the difference/slippage between private genderplay and public - what? transgenderism? (where Catherine spends a lot of time promising 'not to let the night things come in the day' and experiences it as a failure of control when she becomes a boy in public, in the art gallery when David's not there), the disruption of the Adam/Eve model of complementary heterosexuality not just by gender reversal/inversion but by the possibility of polyamory, bisexuality, and so on... And all this is going on in such tension with the 'crazy bitch'/'second-wife' frame (where Catherine just wanders off somewhere and the third person in the triangle ends up as a replacement and better wife to David). It seemed like a great place to teach about the possibility of resistive readings, about cultural/narrative framing, and so on. (It completely misfired and I ended up miserably having to mark about six incredibly bad essays on it, but that was the idea...)

Um, anyway, about the narrative. The Kennedy article on JSTOR - which I will dig out next week - points out that the published version of GoE, despite the editors' assurance that they made only 'minor cuts', is only one-third of the total manuscript: there's at least one version where David and Catherine end up together again. So I wonder whether the decision to end the published novel at this completely cliche point, where there's a 'marriage' to provide a happy ending for two characters and the transgressive one is punished by being disappeared, possibly to death or madness, says more about the cultural presuppositions of what makes a narrative than about Hemingway's actual novel. Not that I think it's totally fixable in any case, but it seemed like the plot was doing so much of the work of homophobia/misogyny, as compared to the characterization, the prose style, etc.

I wish I could get my hands on the manuscript.

id_entity, you asked:

do you have a reference handy for that interpretation of Carmen 63?

I don't know about Carmen 63 in particular. The person who's most associated with Latin love elegy and feminization is Maria Wyke, and I think that's where I got the ideas from (though your reference to this not being the 'established' interpretation makes me wonder how much of it I elaborated in my head in the ten years or so since I did this reading) - bibliography here, see especially:

'Taking the woman's part: engendering Roman love elegy', in Roman Literature and Ideology (ed.) A. J. Boyle, (1995, Bendigo Press), pp.110-128
'Mistress and metaphor in Augustan elegy' in Helios 16.1, (1989) pp.25-47. [Reprinted in Sexuality and Gender in the Classical World: Readings and Sources, ed. Laura McClure (Oxford: Blackwell, 2002), pp. 193-219; and in Latin Erotic Elegy: An Anthology and Reader, ed Paul Allen Miller (London: Routledge, 2002), pp. 386-409.]
'Reading female flesh: Amores 3.1' in History as text ed. Averil Cameron, Duckworth, (1989) pp.111-143
'The Elegiac Woman at Rome' in Proceedings of the Cambridge Philological Society (1987) NS 33, pp.153-178
'Written women: Propertius' scripta puella' in Journal of Roman Studies (1987) 77, pp.47-61

For Catullus as a sapphic man, I wrote an essay on that during my MA and have been vaguely meaning to come back to it at some point, but AFAIK no-one else has written on it. But I'm very out of touch with classical scholarship, embarrassingly enough as I currently work in a classics dept.

(It's just occurred to me apropos of this thread that the Hermaphroditus story in the Metamorphoses, already referred to as an instance of gender transformation, is an interesting description of female-on-male rape, too, where 'penetration' is described as 'engulfment' in a threatening way. With an octopus simile.)
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
17:28 / 19.03.06
Deva: (It's just occurred to me apropos of this thread that the Hermaphroditus story in the Metamorphoses, already referred to as an instance of gender transformation, is an interesting description of female-on-male rape, too, where 'penetration' is described as 'engulfment' in a threatening way. With an octopus simile.)

I need to reread the Ovid story, but does anyone know off the top of their heads if anyone's ever done anything about the complementary natures of Hermaphroditus & the Platonic story about the original three beings being split?

The rape aspect of the story is ... interesting, if you consider that the naiad prays to the Gods to intermingle their bodies. Hermaphroditus is the son of a god and a goddess (but in that nebulous way - was he himself a god, or merely immortal?) but they don't seem to have any trouble letting these events happen. I wonder what the rationale (beyond "the gods are capricious") might be put forward for them granting her wish. They're both immortal, and he prays afterward that the particular pool they were in changes other people...
 
  

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