BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Feminism, Discourse, Rationality, Debate

 
 
iconoplast
19:10 / 04.03.06
The female posters who seem to get most respect from the board in general, and from male-identified posters, seem to be those who post in what we view as a reasonable, 'rational' (as opposed to 'emotional' way). It seems to me that this is slightly different for male-identified posters, who can post angrily, or in the heat of the moment, without it necessarily being taken as indicative of their general character.(*)

"And it's also a class issue, because the most successful female voices in [my workplace] environment are the ones who conform to class-based (and, in this case, regional/geographic) expectations of behavior"(*)

"Barbelith has a jocular, 'jokey' but intensely competitive atmosphere in which one is called upon to demonstrate one's razor wit and/or superior debating skill in order to win acclaim. This is how people become known here. This is how you 'get popular'. It's totally boy's boarding school.
...
But always to a certain limit: a witty limit, a 'cool' limit, a 'polite' limit (if only barely). Outright anger is generally met with disapproval because it breaks down that boundary of (just) politeness, or the fiction that everyone might be able to get along together if they tried to see each other's point of view.

I think it's absolutely necessary for that distanciated 'rational' method of exchange to be broken by hot, emotional, personal anger about injustice -- from people of all genders, not just women, even if this current issue is about sexism and misogyny, and the treatment of women posters. ... This stuff is necessary because expressing anger sometimes makes it terrifyingly clear that stuff on Barbelith has political stakes and personal consequences. That it's related to the real world. If you're on the wrong end of those political stakes, it's hard not to feel angry. "(*)

"I'm more into constructive discussion; the kind of conversations that allow new side thoughts to grow and/or wither as the general talk goes on. Whether this is me being all soft and nurturing because I'm a woman, I'm really not sure.
...
I think feeling is an essential element of good humnan debate and understanding, and I'm not willing to put it to one side in order to interact with a forum like this."(*)

"I think it's absurd to ask if Barbelith is woman-friendly. I think it's absurd that posters who are particular about ze and hir as their pronouns of choice will unleash pussy as a pejorative." (*)

"So, on the topic of feminism and the belittling of women, how does the board feel about dogpiling on an emotionally vulnerable new mother? " (*)


I don't know where I'm going with this. I'd just like to sort of pull the theory stuff over to one side, so it doesn't get lost in the threads going on right now. Because I'm really interested in the possibility that Rational Discourse might not be entirely genderless. I don't really know what it would mean if it weren't, except that a lot of what I have so far taken to be neutral would be revealed as more cryptomasculinity.

I love Barbelith's culture of quips and snarks, and competitive pretension. I think detatched and rational argument from first principles and through logical inference is an astonishing tool. And I think that on the internet more than anywhere else it's very easy to forget that genders exist. Which would be wonderful, if I wasn't programmed to have 'default gender' equate to 'male' (**)

But the recent threads on Feminism have made me wonder if maybe we, as a board, shouldn''t talk about opening Barbelith's rules of engagement to include other methods of engaging with issues. My problem here is that I don't really know what those other methods might be.

I guess the purpose of this thread is to investigate what other modes of discourse might be available to us, and how those modes might play out online.


** - Thought Experiment. Was told this a long time ago. Close your eyes and picture a gender-neutral human. Better yet, picture a gender-neutral Barbelith poster. Picture what a 'ze' or a 'hir' refers to.





... what I pictured was a male body without a penis. Hardly gender neutral.
 
 
iconoplast
22:25 / 04.03.06
"Perhaps this is my own brand of feminism, but I tend to agree with Riane Eisler (to paraphrase): "Men and women are different but equally powerful, and together their power is doubled." (*)

" I think that at some level my perception was that I would be more respected as a completely gender-neutral online intentity, rather than a person, and I know that part of that feeling is my own self-consciousness."(*)


I am sure that, at some point, everyone encounters someone who is more privileged. Someone about whom you think 'Sure, easy for you to say, not all of use were lucky enough to be born _______.'

I mean, we all construct our identities out of any number of signifiers. Gender, Race, Creed, Color, Sexual Preference... Class isn't brought up in the US as much, but it's present as well. And, if we use enough signifiers, we are essentially drawing venn diagrams that place each of us neatly within our very own Category of One.

In which sense each of us suffers from some form of -ism whenever our good ideas are dismissed based on our dodgy record of bad ideas. Sort of*.

I know I have seen posts on barbelith which trivialize and demean a segment of society that the poster is (pretty clearly) not a part of and which I am. Is it wrong of me to just go outside for a cigarette and let the post go? Maybe. Probably.

But this is an opt-in society. I can leave barbelith whenever I want, so I just remind myself that there are more posts by mad, brilliant, beautiful lunatics than there are by that other kind of poster. So I stay.

Nevertheless, I feel that the question of Gender is still important. And I would like Barbelith to examine, essentially, how to let girls in the clubhouse without expecting them to act like boys.

It's strange. I keep wanting to use the phrase 'Separate but Equal' in relation to the genders. But that phrase is incredibly loaded (for me, at least) with connotations of segregation and Birmingham and badness. But I think when I say separate, I don't mean separated. I just mean distinct.

I can be told to 'be a man,' be complimented on being 'a mensch,' I can be ballsy, I can think about selling out to The Man.

I would like if a woman had seperate but equal, distinct yet not separated, options available to her in our culture.



* -Well, not really. I think the -ism comes in where we're judged because of other people, or even more so when we're judged because of stereotypes that don't even refer to real people.
 
 
*
02:14 / 05.03.06
(Fuck.)

As I was saying... and please be warned that this is essentially a tear kicked off by your use of "separate but equal," which you've already acknowledged has problems, but you don't seem to know what those problems are exactly...

I'm really suspicious of any line of argument which assumes that women tend to have a different posting style than men. I've had it up to here with "There are women, and there are men, and they are fundamentally different." The very thing so many of the people who post here are talking about is that they are being seen as women (or ladies or worse yet girls) who post here instead of people. Expecting women to act like women instead of like people assumes that we have any knowledge of what women naturally should act like outside of the sexist messages we get from our culture. We don't.

Furthermore I get fed up with binary essentialism. How would you expect me to post, as a trans man? How would you have expected me to post when I was posting here as gender-neutral entitything, a year or two back? (Evidently like a man with no penis, if your thought experiment is any indication. How does a man with no penis post?)

What's so difficult to understand about honoring different posting styles without trying to categorize them? Moneyshot and Lula both have different ways of representing their own experiences really effectively, and they should get at least as respect for that as Alas gets for her logical reasoning and Haus gets for his seeming ability to verbally outmaneuvre anyone at any time (sorry to target you, Haus. I know you get at least as much hatin' as you do appreciatin'). And when was the last time Our Lady got board acclaim for her willingness to follow up on a suspicion which, it turns out, is absolutely correct* (as it often is with her)? If we take more time to notice posting styles which show particular skill at something other than the logical reasoning and competitive debate which so often win accolades here, more posters with these different posting styles, regardless of gender, will feel freer to express themselves here.

It is important not to turn this respect into "You're really intuitive/sensitive to others' needs, because you're a gyrl!" or "You're really rational/competitive, for a gyrl!" gender essentialism, which is what we're a hair's breadth from doing here, I feel. It's also not necessary to target everyone who is brave enough to walk into this space dressed in a woman's ficsuit and reassure them that it's okay to be touchy feely, because that's natural to them, they're a gyrl— until they finally give in and start dotting their i's with little hearts.

*We were just discussing the topic of the linked post in my learning theory class, and everything Our Lady hypothesizes is absolutely backed up by research.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
02:35 / 05.03.06
You know, I'm not so sure that this logical debate, rational argument etc is held in quite the high regard people keep saying it is around here. This is starting to bug me slightly - most of the board not only does not prioritise it but is often hostile to it. I'm also not sure how one determines who gets the most credit or adoration on Barbelith, which absence of a metric worries me.
 
 
*
04:22 / 05.03.06
I'll hear that, Haus, if you want to elaborate.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
05:34 / 05.03.06
I've always seen rational discourse as something that people of any gender, race or sexuality are perfectly capable of taking part in, and have done- it's just that the majority has frozen the minority out.

Women, indigenous peoples, and anyone queer have been labelled as "irrational" for a long time- very generally, women are seen as "hysterical", the indigenous people are seen as being in thrall to their animal nature, or their civilisations have "frozen" about 1,000 years ago; the queer people are described mad, deluded, ill.

So, if I'm reading this thread right, it seems to me that avoiding "rational discourse" might be playing into enemy hands? The idea that in order for Barbelith to = more woman friendly, Barbelith must = less rational seems to support global (i.e. outside of board) sexist ideology.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
05:46 / 05.03.06
Equally, I think there is definitely a place in the mind for anger, outrage, and other emotional reactions, and to deny those things is foolish because they are part of being human.

The thing is, aren't most injustices caused by irrationality? You can say that modern genocide is rational because it rests on machinery, discipline and modern science- but isn't it, at heart, based around an irrational hatred on the part of the killer(s)? Cold, calculating, maybe, but still deeply irrational- as is sexist practise. However coldly manipulative the sexist is being, they are still motivated by irrational hatred of the target.

So, if we want to stop these outrages, surely we need to avoid falling into the irrationality trap ourselves?
 
 
Disco is My Class War
11:31 / 05.03.06
I forgot to add to the above that I really enjoy the competitive atmosphere around here at times, and I like how it gives rise to fun intellectual jousting. Being an egghead is encouraged here. For those who don't feel they have the skills, though, it's really hard to 'get a word in'. Though this is usually about confidence rather than skills... And confidence is another of those tricky qualities which seems to be far more encouraged and rewarded in boys than girls.

To me, calling the 'issue' a problem with rational debate per se sidesteps the way that accusations of irrationality coincide with and support fucked up gender shit. This is really the point -- not that people conduct discussions in a rational way, or that some people decide they'd rather contribute by expressing 'hot' anger/pain/emotion. The point is, some posters use the visible gender of their interlocutors in tandem with pointing out 'anger' or 'irrationality' to invalidate the other's claims. Perhaps it would be constructive to observe here that 'rationality' and 'irrationality', like science and faith, are always different depending on the power relations intersecting and bringing them into being, discursively?

I'm also not sure how one determines who gets the most credit or adoration on Barbelith, which absence of a metric worries me.

Well, there is no metric. I was generalising, and you caught me out.
 
 
Orange
16:02 / 05.03.06
Haus: You know, I'm not so sure that this logical debate, rational argument etc is held in quite the high regard people keep saying it is around here.

I would definitely be able to accept that. My perspective slants the way I see the board, so there's nothing absolute about it. I regard highly the logic and rationality that I find here, and consider it characteristic because it's a big part of what drew me here. I could be making a generalization because I personally value that aspect of the discussion here.

Mister Disco: Though this is usually about confidence rather than skills... And confidence is another of those tricky qualities which seems to be far more encouraged and rewarded in boys than girls.

Regarding confidence, that's very much the way I see it too, and the latter bit is a very good point.
 
 
iconoplast
17:32 / 05.03.06
To me, calling the 'issue' a problem with rational debate per se sidesteps the way that accusations of irrationality coincide with and support fucked up gender shit.

No, totally. It's why I started this thread, here, instead of incessantly banging my theory drum in the Feminism thread.

I'm not sure that rational debate somehow favors the male-id'd participants, I don't think female id'd posters are less capable of being rational, or that there's a link between gender and style-of-posting or method-of-discourse.

I'm just, you know, interested. And so I wanted to kick the ideas around a bit.

Furthermore I get fed up with binary essentialism. How would you expect me to post, as a trans man? How would you have expected me to post when I was posting here as gender-neutral entitything, a year or two back?

I'm sort of floored and don't really have much of an answer. Still thinking.

I mean, what you said - "... take more time to notice posting styles which show particular skill at something other than the logical reasoning and competitive debate which so often win accolades here... - that seems good, right? Whether or not it's rational debate that wins accolades, or cutest Fennec picture posted, or sheer posting volume.

But I'm going to try and think about why essentialism was appealing, and try and see if whatever I wanted to get from it can be salvaged and gotten in some other way. This is really one of those embarassing cases where limited experience = limited theories. I didn't intend to be binary or exclusionary, and I'm more than a little chagrinned to see that I was.

I think what I was trying to do (okay. thought about it. I think this shoud be better.) was to say that MY conception of 'people' - of 'gender neutral/unspecified humans' is very close to my conception of 'male', lacking only the sexual apparatus.

The thought experiment was supposed to be about breasts and hips and why they weren't present in my 'totally neutral' picture. And it was supposed to be pointing out that I have the 'default' switch stuck on male, and so wanted to, I don't know. Ask if there weren't some better way of specifying default.

The essentialism argument was intended to convey the limitations in my preconceptions of 'default humanity.' I think my logic went

'Women and Men have unspecified essential differences.'*
'When I think 'gender neutral' I really mean male.'
---
'When I expect 'gender neutrality' I am expecting women** to act in ways which fit my preconcieved notions of masculinity.

* - to which I would add, 'nor are they exhaustive categories'
** - By which I guess I meant 'posters who are not male-id'd'

Anyway. I don't really like that line of logic anymore, and I'm not sure why I thought it even factored into this thread. The 'limitations of rational dialogue' issue is one which I have always enounctered in proximity to feminist theory, so I have naturally associated the two.

But I think that me bringing it up in the context of feminism and trying to use gender identities as examples of indentities which societally are associated with different styles of discourse has just made a mess of it because I think I've been posting as though there were a logical bridge from gender to different modes of discourse. When in fact I think the link is more along the lines of "If you think talking about gender is interesting, you may also think talking about other methods of discourse is interesting."
 
 
*
18:53 / 05.03.06
Less confrontationally, the idea that male=default in many people's minds is certainly worth talking about. It's something that I've struggled with personally, so I understand where you're coming from.

And I admit to not having thought through whether or not competitive rationality really is more highly valued here than other modes of discourse, or whether or not this is as it should be. This thread would seem to be a pretty good place to explore that. Let's backtrack— does the board value all posting styles equally? If not (and I think it's safe to say not) which posting styles tend to win more approval? One must be careful, since things are often quoted there in irony, but I venture that the barbequotes thread might be one good place to start mining for data.
 
 
iconoplast
14:10 / 06.03.06
Hah! A night's sleep, som *good* coffee finally, and I think I get my problem:

Male= Default
Rationality = Default
(3 dots) Male = Rationality

...or something like that. Anyway - yeah, I think that talking about just these kinds of preconceptions about what constitutes good discourse is probably a good idea... I think I'm going to try & do some reading on this, to get an idea of where other people have gone with these questions.

As an afterthought, a lot of people have admitted to assuming posters are male until they're proven female. How does that assumption color our readings of their posts?
 
 
alas
19:02 / 06.03.06
a lot of people have admitted to assuming posters are male until they're proven female

The only time someone ever told me they think of me as a bloke was, I think Keggers (and maybe someone else?), in the Lateshift, where I have been a regular, sporadically (if that makes any sense...).

As I see it, the lateshift is kind of like an all-night bar in Barbelith (at the corner of Being St. and Nothingness Ave.) which I think maybe tends--or has tended--to be more male-dominated than, say, other places I happen to hang out like books, or many headshop threads, and maybe even more than other conversation threads. That's a kneejerk, completely anecdotal, and possibly way-off perception of mine, however.

But it makes me wonder if the "default=male" is stronger in certain fora, say, Comics, Temple, the Laboratory? (These are places I spend less time in, myself so I can't be sure.)

I'd like to explore if "Barbelith's default mode of interacting" as the summary puts it, is in fact the same in all fora--I am so focused: I hit Conversation (not all threads), Policy, Headshop, Switchboards, Books (more selectively), and recently I've made an effort at Music and Temple (but have posted very little in either place). So, I don't feel like I have an eagle eye view--I spend almost 0 time in Comics, Film, Creation, etc.

And, iconoplast, I like the self-scrutiny that I see you doing. You are getting one big thing that I was hoping people would get: there's no "neutral" human as our current culture is set up. And, in practice, this means that, as you discovered, when we try to imagine "neutral" humans, we usually do, unconsciously imagine beings that are actually both gendered (and, for that matter raced)--and that it's usually characteristics that are (rightly or wrongly) associated with the dominant gender, race, etc., that are taken to be more "neutral" than characteristics perceived as belonging to members of a subordinate group. I suspect that the "standard" human body is still imagined to be typically white, male, non-disabled, and adult (but not too old)... Like the old-fashioned habit of saying "men" when one means "human beings"; it's imagined to be neutral, but it's not.

This isn't typically overtly "malicious" on anyone's part, it's a part of how power, privilege, and oppression function, and serve to reproduce themselves. It creates marked and umarked ways of being in the world, and usually helps to make some things/people visible in some ways (e.g., after 9/11 virtually the only images of firefighters on newsbroadcasts were male, although there were many NY female firefighters on the scene), and invisible in others (e.g., reports on the school shootings in the late 90s were much more likely to focus on potential factors like the effects of violent video games and Marilyn Manson, while they almost universally failed to ascribe any significance to the fact that virtually all of the shootings were perpetrated by young men, not young women. If they had been young women, it seems almost inconceivable that gender conditioning/perceptions wouldn't have been a major focus. "Why are our young women becoming so violent?")

I say this not in righteous anger so much as a way of asking: what's going on that visibility works this way? What are the effects of this visibility/invisibility? How does it distort the way I'm seeing the world?

(And, having typed that I ask, why did I need to say: "I'm not angry."....? I have some ideas...another "required reading": Audre Lorde's essay "On the Uses of Anger," which is unfortunately not available on-line, so far as I know. I've been meaning to discuss it in Policy. Too many good threads right now...)
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
19:39 / 06.03.06
There are certain physical characteristics which are specific to a particular (bio) gender and I can see that making it difficult to imagine a neutral human.

Questions: is it always default male, or do some/many/any female-ids think neutral=female? Do we view ourselves specifically in anyway as neutral based on unconscious solipsism, and therefore project our own gender on the neutral one?

Can we rewrite our default definition of neutral (I mean: can we re-train our brains to picture, I don't know, the bald woman from Star Trek 1 or androgynous super-robots or something)?
 
 
*
20:49 / 06.03.06
There are certain physical characteristics which are specific to a particular (bio) gender and I can see that making it difficult to imagine a neutral human.

This is far less biological than cultural, as an examination of gendered characteristics across cultures will support. As an example— pointed canine teeth are considered a female physical characteristic in Japan. In a thread relating to facial hair on another board, a commenter was taken to task for asserting that all adult men have facial hair to some degree. He was unaware that this assertion relied on his assumption that all adult men are white; he was unconscious of his reliance on the neutrality of whiteness. This is leaving aside people with intersex conditions, because it's rather offensive of me that I keep wanting to use them as counterexamples to almost every assertion of binary essentialism. Most of them are not, and don't wish to be seen as, anyone's example of a "neutral human."
 
 
iconoplast
20:50 / 06.03.06
Papers, I think that if you want to picture a gender neutral poster, you're probably best off pictruing a Starfish. Humans, wherever they may place themselves / be placed on the gender spectrum, are always engendered beings. (So, I guess, to be truly gender neutral is to not be human.)

I'm interested in what id entity posted in the Fem 101 thread:

In 2004 I was in a linguistic anthropology course in Florida, where we performed the following task from Michael Stubbs' Words and Phrases: Corpus Studies of Lexical Semantics:
(1) Collect your own data on the actual occurrence of words for related speech acts in phrases and texts:
...
Study the words they repeatedly co-occur with, and use this evidence to provide a description of their meanings, including whether they express the speaker's attitude to the language behaviour: approving, neutral or disapproving.


It doesn't seem possible to do someting like this on Barbelith, since word choice would reveal only the poster's perhas unconscious belief about their subject's gender as they're writing.

I would really like to adapt this sort of study to the 'lith, though. Any ideas?
 
 
*
21:20 / 06.03.06
These folks are more like otherkin than like transgender folks, then?

It's worth exploring, but perhaps another time. You've given me something to think about, though, iconoplast.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
21:24 / 06.03.06
id entity: This is far less biological than cultural, as an examination of gendered characteristics across cultures will support. As an example— pointed canine teeth are considered a female physical characteristic in Japan.

Really? I hadn't really thought about the cultural connotations of physical characteristics.

This is leaving aside people with intersex conditions, because it's rather offensive of me that I keep wanting to use them as counterexamples to almost every assertion of binary essentialism. Most of them are not, and don't wish to be seen as, anyone's example of a "neutral human."

I included the (bio) to refer to non-trans specifically, because by default (heh) I assumed that "neutral" was in relation to biological female and biological male. But I hadn't taken into account the cultural element. I don't think I'd classify intersex as neutral because from one point of view, they have "too much" gender (not possible, yes, and potentially offensive, but neutrality seems to suggest fewer sexual characteristics rather than potentially "conflicting" ones) - I'm not sure if I have the language to talk about this. Intersex implies (to me) in between, somewhere along the spectrum, whereas ideally gender neutrality would be devoid of specific sex characteristics and almost be outside the spectrum? Which again brings me back to my idea of a gender sphere rather than spectrum, but I seem to have a linguistic failing...

iconoplast: Papers, I think that if you want to picture a gender neutral poster, you're probably best off pictruing a Starfish. Humans, wherever they may place themselves / be placed on the gender spectrum, are always engendered beings. (So, I guess, to be truly gender neutral is to not be human.)

Huh. Good way to look at it. Right up until I start imagining you all as Starro the Conquerer, come to obliterate Earth...

I would really like to adapt this sort of study to the 'lith, though. Any ideas?

Reminds me of an online quiz engine thingee that asked for samples of your writing and then checked it based on certain predetermined "gendered" words to determine your gender. Of course, limited to male and female, but it also asked if you were the gender it selected for you and then matched that all up for its stats...
 
 
iconoplast
21:27 / 06.03.06
So many cruel jokes at the expense of the Otherkin spring to mind.

I'd never heard of Neutrois. But whether they're trying to establish a third pole or just inhabit the origin/zero-point, I would say that they're people who are trying to invent a way of living that escapes exactly this problem - humans are always engendered. Hence, this inventing is going to be very hard going.
 
 
alas
21:44 / 06.03.06
Can we rewrite our default definition of neutral (I mean: can we re-train our brains to picture, I don't know, the bald woman from Star Trek 1 or androgynous super-robots or something)?

I realize that this part of the discussion is verging on being a new topic, but: Is there a good reason we should continue to try to imagine a "neutral" human? Or is that desire more accurately seen as itself part of the problem, which I think is id's stand, and I think it's mine too...?

There is something I vaguely distrust about the idea, and it may have something to do with iconoplast's assertion that it's ultimately not going to be something "human"...I haven't articulated this clearly, but the desire to erase vital parts of our humanity, even in the name of "doing the right thing" feels like part and parcel of the same troubled system: we are humans. We come in funny shapes. We often smell bad. And we get angry, and we say the wrong thing. And then there's all the "humans are great" stuff--you know, we fall in love, dogs seem to like us, Jon Stewart, Audre Lorde...

I think, by the way, that the philosopher whose work seems to approach this "neutral human" as a way to approach ethics is John Rawls, whose work I don't know as well as I sometime think I "should," but, from what I do know of it, I think I tend to distrust it for the same reasons. He posits that the most just society would come about if its inhabitants made decisions from behind a "veil of ignorance." Let me see if I can link...Here's Wikipedia's entry on his book, A Theory of Justice, for starters.
 
 
*
22:00 / 06.03.06
There are many different kinds of intersex conditions, and many different identities among intersex people, and I'm really not qualified to talk about them all, nor do I know enough to say what is offensive or not. I only brought the issue up because it's become reflex, by now, to use intersex people as an example point out the flaws in reasoning which misattributes cultural meanings of sex characteristics to biological fact— and it's a bad reflex and I shouldn't have done it.

But to provide some example of what I was getting at, a person with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome often manifests as someone assigned female who has extremely "feminine" characteristics as we generally think of them. But those extremely feminine characteristics develop, in this case, because this person actually has a XY genotype and male testosterone levels which they lack receptors for. (Most people with complete androgen insensitivity are reported to comfortably identify as female.)
 
 
alas
22:23 / 06.03.06
Help, a headshop thread that's moving faster than I can post!

I was actually intending to edit my post because it sounds like I "know" id's stance on this neutrality issue, or that I'm putting words in his mouth, and that's not quite right.

But I was struck by the language on the Neutrois link you posted above, id entity, once I got back to check it; I've italicized the words that struck me--Within Neutrois, there are two types. FTNs (Female-to-Neutrois) seek to lose the physical traits that cause them to be socially read and treated as women. Most demonized of the female traits are breasts, round hips, and feminine voices. Some despise their vaginal regions and menstrual cycles enough to desire hysterectomies, oophorectomies, and vaginal nullification. Juvenile and adolescent sexual abuse can be a contributing factor in this wish, but is not always the case.

The language describing FTN attitudes towards the specifically feminized bits of the female body is so...distressing? misogynist? This is not the case with the site's description of MTNs, whose actions are presented in relatively clinical language:

MTNs (Male-to-Neutrois) seek to lose the physical traits which cause them to be read and treated as men. Most commonly, those traits are facial and body hair, deep voice pitch, rough skin, and crotch bulge. While some may desire being rendered Eunuchs through castration and penile nullification; most gaff/tuck, or train their sexual organs to lie flatter.

This reminds me of what I, anyway, found myself wanting to explore in the femme thread. How do you understand that difference?
 
 
Ganesh
22:28 / 06.03.06
These folks are more like otherkin than like transgender folks, then?

Arguably, yes. I'd say they're certainly more like otherkin than like people with intersex conditions. It's an interesting point of discussion.
 
 
iconoplast
23:28 / 06.03.06
Hey, id? I just want to say thanks. I know, rationally, that pretty much any categorization system is going to make mistakes - that there are always interstitial zones and border regions where the difinition breaks down. But somehow I keep trying to apply this dualistic logic anyway, and you keep bringing up the excluded middle. Which, apparently, I keep needing to be reminded of.
 
 
*
23:37 / 06.03.06
Wow, alas; I don't, really. I had noticed it, the first time I came across that site (which would be long dead if some non-neutrois-identified people had not felt it should be saved), but I hadn't thought much past there.

iconoplast, I'm not really all that smart about these things; I'm just in a situation where I've had to think about the excluded middle a lot.

At any rate, this thread is looking like a gender-neutral starfish by virtue of trying to go in at least five directions at once— certainly a novel mode of discourse, but maybe not a productive one.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
00:34 / 07.03.06
alas: There is something I vaguely distrust about the idea, and it may have something to do with iconoplast's assertion that it's ultimately not going to be something "human"...I haven't articulated this clearly, but the desire to erase vital parts of our humanity, even in the name of "doing the right thing" feels like part and parcel of the same troubled system: we are humans. We come in funny shapes. We often smell bad. And we get angry, and we say the wrong thing. And then there's all the "humans are great" stuff--you know, we fall in love, dogs seem to like us, Jon Stewart, Audre Lorde...

Thanks for bringing this up, alas. We can't all fit into a neutral category.

The flip side, to dip into a moribund metaphor, of the "gender neutral" coin would be infinite gender potential. I have on occasion argued for fully self-determined gender (in, you know, futuristic utopian society where this is all moot) where language and self-definition are natural and expected; everybody gets to make up their own pronouns kind of thing. I have the urge to write a short flash sci-fi story about it, maybe.

I think the problem with the two sides is that to address one is to neccessarily avoid the other. If you focus on trying to construct a potentially inhuman, gender-neutral idea of a person, you run into "I am not a Number" Prisoner frustration, but if you go with fully self-determined gender-language and identification, it's almost impossible to keep track of who defines themselves as what without each of us wearing a nametag showing our specific gender identity and our preferred pronouns (I'm thinking mainly in terms of Barbelith ficsuit identification, but to some extent this extends to real life where we don't necessarily all fit into one of the commonly specified categories). I really love the idea of infinite gender potential but I can't quite imagine how it would/could function without adopting some kind of non-specific generalization when dealing with people before you've been made aware of their specs. That's why I tend to like the ze/hir pairing so much. It's also why I feel like one should be able to use "their" and "they" as singular pronouns despite what Lynne Truss might think.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
09:26 / 08.03.06
Last night I read through the postings on this thread and on the equally interesting feminism 101 thread in conversation. As a caveat my primary interest in this place and indeed on the two or three philosophy/cultural lists that i subscribe to or manage is always philosophical and cultural. Also I'm not going to comment on the impossible contradiction of supposedly rational discourse on irrationalisms (magic etc).

What is particularly interesting about the barbelith list is the problem it has with radical particularist political positions - the fascinating thing about the feminism discussion is the avoidence of thinking of feminism as a materialism. What I mean to emphasize through saying that is that feminism is ultimately about bodies, which is to say that it is a struggle about who controls the womans body. Even within the theories of difference of Irigaray the difference resolves to the differences between male and female bodies. What barbelith posters seem often to incapable of grasping is that the fundamental issue is always about who controls the womans body. Look at the abortion discussions - morality is being used to take ownership of a fundamental aspect of the female body and so on. Rationality is being used to attack a woman's relationship to her body. Likewise see the current tragic case of a women who has embryo's in storage but is being prevented from having children because of her ex-boyfriend and what appears to be a rational legel decision. Which is resulting in his and the states inexcusable control of her body.

My reason for wanting to raise the issue of the body is because of the perfectly fair point raised by Songer-Muller and Le Doeuff that it is because of their different bodies that women are disadvantaged and oppressed. It seems to me that if you start from here then there may be a possibility of identifying why rationality is often considered as masculine - even in a non-rational place like this. (and that is not a negative comment).

The reason I mentioned the philosophical note at the beginning is that one of the things I've noticed over the years is that philosophical lists are by tendency implicitly sexist. That is to say they rarely if ever discuss women philosophers - the bias towards the discussion and naming of male philosophers is extraordinary. Indeed this is also the case here - I have not counted but my impression is that male intellectuals are addressed and female ones less so. The consequences of this are that even when two discourses are available the one constructed by the man will be the one that is discussed - (for example Foucault's work on plato is well known whereas Irigaray's work on the same area is much less well known, even though it is arguably more important.)
 
 
Cat Chant
11:59 / 09.03.06
sdv, I taught Irigaray's embodied-feminist rewriting of Plato's cave allegory the other week and I too was strongly reminded of it by this thread. I'd like to come back to those ideas later - so much to follow up in this thread.

I just wanted to add to alas's
the philosopher whose work seems to approach this "neutral human" as a way to approach ethics is John Rawls

that his work on the 'veil of ignorance' has been subjected to ongoing feminist rethinking/engagement by the legal theorist and deconstructionist Drucilla Cornell, in case anyone is interested in following this up. I'd have to spend more spare time than I have right now on giving an adequate account of what she does with Rawls.


I also really want to follow up on this, from Papers:

if you go with fully self-determined gender-language and identification, it's almost impossible to keep track of who defines themselves as what without each of us wearing a nametag showing our specific gender identity and our preferred pronouns

which is intersecting with a lot of stuff I'm thinking about at the moment, about gender perhaps as made in encounters between people. What's the ontological status of my gender? Is it coterminous with the way that I experience it from moment to moment? Can I have a 'private' gender that's different from my 'public' gender (what I think was perhaps slightly clumsily referred to in another thread as 'erotic transvestism')? In Papers' scenario, is my gender securely defined by what's written on my name-tag - does that delimit, control, put a stop to the dissemiative readings that other people might have of it? If we make our own gender out of the bits and pieces of signifying material to hand in our environment, how do reading, reception, differance operate to create a gender-act between people?

Gah, sorry, this is all very shorthand and opaque. Let me try and come back to it later.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
15:06 / 09.03.06
Deva: In Papers' scenario, is my gender securely defined by what's written on my name-tag - does that delimit, control, put a stop to the dissemiative readings that other people might have of it? If we make our own gender out of the bits and pieces of signifying material to hand in our environment, how do reading, reception, differance operate to create a gender-act between people?

I think it might publicly control dissemiative (?? - need to look this word up, but I'm assuming "unintentional" or something similar? discordant perhaps?) readings of your gender, because it specifies the pronouns to be used, but people don't obviously don't say everything they're thinking and might refer to you as another gender when you're not around, or make allegations of your gender-posing when speaking to other people (or just in their heads).

On the one hand this is a negative thing (judgemental behaviours), but at the same time it does reinforce gender as a social construct and also limits the amount of control one has over one's gender presentation and that strikes me as very ... human. We're only half who we are, the other half is who other people think we are...
 
 
Orange
01:13 / 29.03.06
First, apologies ahead of time for completely hijacking the thread, but I think where I'm going to try to go with this follows the original concept pretty well...

I was really interested in the conversation in the Religion thread that started around here (shortly after the thread emerges into 2006) and went on until about three quarters of the way down page four. Alas quotes Slavoj Zizek:

"What, however, about submitting Islam — together with all other religions — to a respectful, but for that reason no less ruthless, critical analysis? This, and only this, is the way to show a true respect for Muslims: to treat them as serious adults responsible for their beliefs."

. . . and then expresses uneasiness about it:

But, I also resist this notion of the only way to respect people is as "serious adults responsible for their beliefs" because it is a sharply individualistic, Western way of understanding both religion and adulthood, for that matter.

(I would quote the text of every one of alas's posts in that thread if I could, so absolutely read it. I'm not really writing this because I have much in the way of original thoughts on the subject, more because I find it absolutely fascinating.)

I thought it was worthwhile to examine the way that a western viewpoint of rationality, adulthood, and individualism (and the way they relate to science and religion or femininity and masculinity) can work against those who aren't in the privileged position. At the same time, I can see the danger of falling into the kind of categorization that we're trying to avoid ("we treat the other in a patronizing way and avoid hurting him in order not to ruin his illusions, or we adopt the relativist stance of multiple "regimes of truth," disqualifying as violent imposition any clear insistence on truth." - Zizek's alternatives to his 'rational' theory). It's hard to make one's own rational, 'objective' worldview meet in the middle with the emotional, spiritual, faith-based "other" that you intellectually believe you should respect, without becoming patronising.

Like alas, I appreciated elene's contributions to that thread (as an example), but I had trouble . . . parsing it, I guess, in the way I'm used to, and I wouldn't have known how exactly to respond. There is definitely a difference in modes of discourse, but I guess what we're trying to do is come to terms with the range within ourselves (i.e. we're all irrational in our own partially cultural way) and disassociate people's tendencies toward different places on that spectrum from signifiers like race, gender, and religion (or lack of it) and try to bridge those gaps in discourse or whatever.

All right, tell me if any of that made sense. I'd be happy to clarify anything (provided I can), as that came out only roughly like what I was thinking. I also feel like most of my sentences were really unnecessarily and confusingly long.
 
  
Add Your Reply