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Quoting the N-Word

  
  

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miss wonderstarr
20:41 / 28.02.06
Forgive me if this isn't a very structured post. I feel Barbelith is usually sensible and sensitive about racially-offensive language, and I was prompted today to think about a particular instance.

I went out running, in my district of SE London, and as usual had some appropriately pounding beats on my ipod -- this evening, one of them was Jay-Z, "Dirt Off Your Shoulder". As I was getting into a rhythm and trying to motivate myself by imagining I was like Rocky training up for a fight (I don't know if anyone else draws on these little imaginary psyche routines -- sometimes I've imagined I was the yellow-suit Daredevil, sometimes a machine whose only purpose is to run), I started "spitting lyrics" under my breath when I remembered them, which was usually the few words at the end of a line:

"Your homey Hov' in position, in the kitchen with soda
I just whipped up a watch, tryin to get me a Rover
Tryin to stretch out the coca, like a wrestler, yessir
Keep the Heckler close, you know them smokers'll test ya"

And so on, just less accurate. The chorus is a lot easier to remember.

"If you feelin like a pimp nigga, go and brush your shoulders off
Ladies is pimps too, go and brush your shoulders off
Niggaz is crazy baby, don't forget that boy told you
Get, that, dirt off your shoulder"

I found myself chanting along to this for a few seconds before realising, what the fuck, I'm running down a road towards a black guy, saying "n*gger" under my breath.

Now, I know it shouldn't really take the sight of someone who would be offended or outraged by it to shock me out of using a racist word, but I was kind of caught up in an unthinking, semi-trance cycle.

I didn't try to rap along with that track anymore.

But, back home, I wondered. Is it any more "OK" for a white person, like myself, to give voice to a racist slur when it's in quotation marks, as a song lyric? It certainly flowed more easily for me: I feel I have an almost physical barrier to saying "n*gger" aloud, and would gloss it normally with "the n-word" even if I was quoting aloud from or referring aloud to a written source. The word is shamefully loaded with hatred to my ears, and saying it seems to put me in a position I don't want to identify with.

However, when it was wrapped up in a rap lyric -- and I do like and admire many hip-hop lyrics, in their rhymes, structure, delivery and attitude, their assertiveness, their wit and to an extent the pleasurably arrogant worldview they often seem to represent -- the word clearly didn't trigger the same no-no mechanisms for me.

Maybe because it's slipped into a rhythm. Maybe, I don't know, it makes a difference because it's spelled and pronounced a little differently, and is clearly part of a certain kind of urban African American "voice" where that word is acceptable as a synonym (as I understand it) for "guy", or "buddy". Maybe by delivering the lyric in the vocal style of Jay-Z (just as I'd sing along to Morrissey in his accent) I was adopting a kind of cultural ventriloquism.

Would it feel slightly stilted if, as a white person, I censored myself when rapping along, on my own, to a lyric -- a kind of clash between Jay-Z's voice and where he's "coming from", and my awareness of my own, very different cultural position -- skipping over some of the words he used, because he's entitled to say them and I don't really have the right even to quote them? Would it make a difference if I wasn't on my own when accompanying his lyric? (Yes, to me it would... I'd certainly skip that line if anyone was around to hear it, but does that mean I should also do so if nobody could hear me?)


I did apologise in advance for disjointedness... I add apology for ramble and vagueness. I hope some readers will see what I mean, and perhaps offer some views or experience of your own. I suppose the bottom line is: would you ever speak what would otherwise be a racist slur, if you were quoting an artist (actor, rapper, writer) to whom it wasn't meant as a slur? Does the artist's intention override the position of the speaker "ventriloquising" those words?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
20:59 / 28.02.06
It's an interesting question, to put it mildly. I mean, blimey, kovacs, this thread could conceivably occupy me for the next few weeks even without anybody else posting. Hats off.

Let's assume for the time being that we're not going to take either of the following two positions (which I'll characterise as 'extreme' positions not because both of them are necessarily extremist, but because they kind of render the question moot if you accept one or the other):

Position we are not going to take #1: "It's not fair that they (people of colour*) can say that word and I (white person) can't! I should be allowed to say it too, otherwise it's a form of censorship and discrimination." Let us call this the 'Clueless White Person' position, for reasons of fairness, and move swiftly on.

Position we are not going to take #2: "People of colour should not use that term at all. Even if they believe they are reclaiming it, they are deluded: it denigrates them/us**. It reinforces a negative and self-loathing mindset and is a symptom and/or cause of many problems they/we deal with. The fact that it has become a term that seems to carry a sense of pride or any other positive quality represents a victory for racism."

I want to make it clear that I don't think these positions are of equal value - #2 is arguable, and I've heard troubling, intelligent arguments put forward to that end, whereas #1 is risible. Having said that, I don't subscribe to either of them. And I think for anyone who does subscribe to #2, the issues kovacs raises become non-issues, in a way - there's a relatively simple answer right there. It might well be an answer that precludes listening to Jay-Z, simplifying matters even further.

But who doesn't want to listen to Jay-Z?

(No, on second thoughts, please don't answer that, Barbelith. PLEASE. Let's make "I think Jay-Z/hip-hop sucks!" position we are not going to take #3.)

*I say this rather than "black people" or "African-Americans" for more than one reason - you don't have to study US hip-hop culture too closely to notice that the issue of the use of the term does not operate in the same way for, say, Puerto Rican people as it does for white people. Which is a point which will no doubt come up again in this thread.

**Position #2 being one that is often heard from black writers, politicians, community leaders, artists, etc. The same cannot be said of Position #1.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
21:17 / 28.02.06
I went to see Kanye West least tuesday, and found myself self-censoring nigga while I sang along at the top of my voice at the show, then all the way home, mainly becuase, and this might sound crazy, but I feel like its there word. Like it's not my word, I haven't earned it. And when I say they, I mean black people.

So I talked to my mate Ryck who's mixed race, black on his mothers side, and he told me that he can understand the self-concious thing, because when he's with a group of white people and singing along he has no problem saying nigga, but as soon as it flips, and he's with a group of black guys, he says he feels self-conscious about saying it. Though he says that doesn't stop him, but if one of his friends called him up on it, he might stop. But they don't, because they obviously don't care.

I guess I feel like it's a respect issue, specifically that I don't want to appear disrespectful. So i'd never call a black guy "my nigga" or anything as awful as that becuase of connotations. And I would feel super self-concious (spelt wrong again) if I did. But singing along, under your breath, fuck it, we can get away with that?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:49 / 28.02.06
I don't want to appear disrespectful. So i'd never call a black guy "my nigga" or anything as awful as that becuase of connotations. And I would feel super self-concious (spelt wrong again) if I did. But singing along, under your breath, fuck it, we can get away with that?

I see what you're saying, but by this token is it OK to mutter a racial slur when someone can't hear it, or even to say it silently in your head, and only an issue when it's "disrespectful" because you say it in the hearing of someone who might be offended?

I don't expect you meant it this way, but "we can get away with that?" has slightly uncomfortable implications for me, as though you're suggesting what "we" (white folks) can "get away with" (not get caught doing). This implication seems to be echoed in your desire not to "appear disrespectful" (italics obviously mine.)

I wouldn't claim never to let a racist thought cross my mind. It would be nice if I could say that, but it'd be dishonest. However, I tend to think that in addressing and challenging your* own racist attitudes (however mild and minor they may be) it's important to monitor your own private language and thoughts, as well as the stuff other people might hear and catch you out doing: not just to try to create a good impression (or avoid a bad impression) among others, but to... police? the way you catch yourself thinking.

Getting back to my original topic, I have to ask myself whether I'd feel uncomfortable joining in that Jay-Z lyric on my own, and whether I'd feel that saying the "n-word" aloud or in my head in that context was reprehensible. I think on reflection that there certainly would be a big difference between me getting into mood and into "character" and approximating Jay-Z's delivery as (for instance) I try to learn the lyrics and timing for myself -- and me looking out of the window, seeing two young black guys shouting at each other and thinking to myself "bloody blacks."

I also tend to think that the intention doesn't matter as much as the effect when using racist language -- ie. "I didn't mean it offensively" doesn't carry much weight -- but I do also sense tentatively that if I am effectively putting myself into Jay-Z's position as speaker in the rap -- playing his character or adopting his persona -- and if I say the word "nigga" as part of his rhyme (alone, so there could be no misunderstanding of the context by anyone hearing me) there is some distinction there.

-------
* I mean "one's own"... it just sounded clumsy to use "one" in the whole sentence that way.
 
 
matthew.
22:02 / 28.02.06
I always censor myself when saying it. When repeating lyrics to songs, I simply omit the word, as if I was a radio. I feel uncomfortable saying it. It has far too many connotations for me to say it, too much history, too much hatred, too much everything. So I self-censor.

At the same time, I think it's wholly fair for people of colour (to use Flyboy's preferred term) to reclaim it. While Bill Cosby and other people may think it disrespects people of colour no matter who says it, I think it takes back the power. It tries to strip the word of its hatred. Unfortunately, it does not strip the word of its history, or its associations. I don't think I will ever be comfortable saying it.

(Is this analogous to gay people reclaiming "fag"? Homosexuals attempting to "depower" the word? I don't know if this the same....)
 
 
miss wonderstarr
22:13 / 28.02.06
Thanks matthesis. I have to take off away from ready internet access for a few days, shortly, so may have to leave my own thread for a while, but just to clarify:

Do you think the same history and hatred apply if you, as (I'm assuming) a white person are, in reciting lyrics along with a hip-hop track, effectively putting yourself in the character created by an African-American rapper (that character probably serving as a partly fictionalised version of themselves)?

If I rap along with the following lines -- All the ladies they love me, from the bleachers they screamin
All the ballers is bouncin they like the way I be leanin
All the rappers be hatin, off the track that I'm makin
But all the hustlers they love it just to see one of us make it -- I'm putting myself into a kind of character role very different from my own position. That's what I was suggesting about "ventriloquising", especially if you not only learned the lyrics but the delivery and, necessarily, used the same intonation and accent.

Nevertheless, I'm still not sure how I feel about this myself so I certainly appreciate these interesting contributions to the thread. When I typed the above, I was angling towards "yes, it's more acceptable because you're putting yourself in a role and speaking as a character." But now I think about it... I wouldn't try to learn and deliver a speech from Samuel L Jackson in Jackie Brown that was punctuated with the word "n*gga", however bad-ass and cool-as-fuck I thought his character was. It would feel really inappropriate and uncomfortable, and the issue about not having the right to use that language would still apply.
 
 
matthew.
22:22 / 28.02.06
I'd just like to, as an aside, direct you to the Larry the Cable Guy thread which touches on a persona, the person and the distance between the two.

Will return to post more on this.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
22:24 / 28.02.06
See, one of the things about this thread is that you could come at it from several different angles. One of them is from the angle of "What am I doing when I sing along to a song?" - which means this thread could almost go in the Music forum, but if it's been put here instead as a further example of how the Conversation can be the place for intersting, intelligent threads too, I'm all for it.

The title of this thread refers to "quoting", but there are obviously more and less problematic forms of quoting where language such as this is concerned. For example, if in the course of a thread like this you wanted to quote some lyrics or speech in which such a word was used, there would be a fairly strong case for you being able to do so without needing to use asterisks, etc. Having said that, not everybody would agree - but it's my take on it that it seems fair that if you make it clear you're reporting speech etc., nobody tends to question that you're not, as it were, taking on the role of the speaker. And yet, I would say that kovacs made the right choice in limiting the title of this thread to "N-word" rather than putting the word itself in there, and I would have done the same thing.

And when we sing along to a song, we're doing something more than just quoting, aren't we? (Not an entirely rhetorical question.) This then connects to a wider argument about whether when we sing something, we are endorsing it, or saying it ourselves, or what.

(Okay, cross-posting here.)

The interesting thing about that last example kovacs gives is that Quentin Tarantino caught flak for having characters in his movies, specifically Jackie Brown, use the word so much. One might argue that a white author should have the freedom to have his characters speak in a way that is realistic to their background, milieu, etc. But what I think some of the critics were onto is that Tarantino's scripts have something of the quotation about them even before anyone sees the movie: they are designed to be quoted, and they are on some level quoting in themselves. There's all sorts of ideas about black masculinity as conceived by white people floating around here waiting to be discussed. A pity I have to sleep, then work...
 
 
Olulabelle
22:25 / 28.02.06
This is a brilliant thread. It has many levels. I want to talk about whether it's okay to repeat certain words within an 'art' context, but initially I would like help with the following:

I have probems with the word Kovacs exampled because I have been taught to believe it's a racist slur and an insult. I know that it has a big history and associations but the only ones I know are negative.

So are there there positive associations with it? Was it ever used as anything other than an insult? Is it OK if I ask someone to tell me what the actual history of the the word is and why it might need reclaiming?

I'm sorry if this sounds a bit ignorant. I'm just trying to get things straight in my head.
 
 
*
23:58 / 28.02.06
Are there any non-white people posting in this thread? Or any who might wish to, but feel like they can't/shouldn't?

Just curious.
 
 
eddie thirteen
01:58 / 01.03.06
This is totally anecdotal, but I do remember one Beastie Boys track from about ten years ago that used the word "nigga," and how it made me fucking cringe. Had a tendency to skip it when I listened to the album (it was a pretty lame song anyhow, as I recall). To the best of my knowledge, it was not a faux pas that was repeated; I'm guessing someone let them know this was ill-advised.

I'm less comfortable with the larger question of whether anyone, black or white, should use the term. Well, no -- I'm quite comfortable saying that white people shouldn't use it. And if I started to unpack that, I'd be here all night. I personally feel that no one should use it, that it's a word that will never be completely stripped of its power and so does have a corrosive effect even on those who would reclaim it (perhaps with the passage of enough time -- I'm talking decades here -- that will change), but that is so not my call.

I think, though, that Tarantino is a good place to look for examples of why exactly the continued use of the word is so disturbing. When I think of the n-word in his films, the first thing that always pops to mind (and it's probably the scene I've heard most often quoted by white people who think it's hilarious) is Tarantino himself remarking about his garage not having a sign over it that reads "dead nigger storage" -- a comment directed at Samuel L. Jackson. Let us for a moment consider that Tarantino, as director, is in a position of authority over Jackson, who can only stand there gawking, as directed...and not, I don't know, lay Mr. Tarantino the fuck out, as would probably happen in any other situation. I think there are two aspects to this scene: what Tarantino thinks is happening (he's playing...no, let's be honest here...he is a white guy who's so fucking cool that he can say this stuff to a badass black guy and have that be all right), and what actually is happening, which is quite different -- to wit, that he's demonstrating power over said badass black guy, because he can. Maybe it'd seem more like the former if he were referring to Jules as "my nigga" (though this would still seem, I don't know...unlikely).
 
 
pomegranate
02:43 / 01.03.06
Is it any more "OK" for a white person, like myself, to give voice to a racist slur when it's in quotation marks, as a song lyric?
i don't have a problem with it, i do it myself. (oh and i'm a white american.) but you have to realize that guy you passed could well have whacked you one.
i think because i, and everyone around me (like if i was at a concert, or hanging with my friends), knows i'm quoting a song, it makes it okay. i think context, while not everything, is damn important. i think i also feel better cos i'm saying "nigga" rather than "nigger," there's such a difference to me. maybe that's dumb but that's how i feel--"nigga" says "i've reclaimed this", "nigger" says "i'm going to burn a cross on yr lawn."
 
 
matthew.
03:07 / 01.03.06
that he's demonstrating power over said badass black guy, because he can.

I certainly never thought of it like that before. I thought it was just Quentin being a fucking dick. In this new light, howver, I'm inclined to say that this is why I find the word so particularly distasteful and uncomfortable: it's always power, isn't it? People of colour say it to reclaim its power. For me to say it would subvert that action. I would be asserting power. And we all know that's wrong, don't we, Barbelith?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
06:08 / 01.03.06
(off-topic- I have lots of thoughts on this, and will come back when I've had a go at assembling them into, like, words and sentences and stuff, but I'd just like to say, having just read Nina's feminism thread before coming here, that it's great to see people actually having decent discussions in the Conversation again).
 
 
miss wonderstarr
06:52 / 01.03.06
I'm glad the thread is going well. I chose to put it in the Conversation because I didn't think my ideas were rigorous enough for a more theoretical forum, and was just throwing something out for discussion, but I agree with those who say the Conversation is not any kind of demotion.

So are there there positive associations with it? Was it ever used as anything other than an insult? Is it OK if I ask someone to tell me what the actual history of the the word is and why it might need reclaiming?


I feel "nigga", used by certain people in certain contexts, is intended to have a positive association, or at least a neutral one ("dude" or "guy")

Here's some stuff anyone can find on Wikipedia.

In an interview in the documentary Tupac: Resurrection, Tupac Shakur explains, "Niggers was the ones on the rope, hanging off the thing; Niggas is the ones with gold ropes, hanging out at clubs." [sic] On the track "Violent," from his 1992 album "2Pacalypse Now," Shakur interprets "nigga" as an acronym standing for "Never Ignorant, Getting Goals Accomplished."


Though it's not my place to argue with other cultural groups' strategies for reclaiming slurs directed historically at them, I feel the second interpretation is rather an unconvincing stretch (like the claim that the song with the chorus "there's a fat girl over there" was actually describing her as "Faithful And True"). With the first, I'd suggest that one celebrity African-American can't really rid the word of negative overtones and fill it with positive ones on his own -- so Tupac was stating his own revisionist interpretation (and perhaps that of his social circle... and perhaps of hip-hop culture in general) but such a claim is limited in its power to change the broader meaning of such a loaded word.

There are debates about how (or whether) the different spelling (and, perhaps, pronunciation) affects the meaning.

Since the 1980s, a common argument among some young African Americans and other youth centers around the pronunciation of nigger as "nigga". Nigga, they contend, is simply a synonym for accepted slang words such as dude and guy.

Opponents of this view argue that nigga is simply nigger pronounced with a southern accent, that the revisionist spelling is merely a phonetic representation of the word as it always has been pronounced in African American Vernacular English and nothing more. Nigger, they point out, is also pronounced "nigga" by many who intend it as a racial slur. While proponents of the neorevisionist use of nigga contend they have "reclaimed" the word and robbed it of its racist connotations, critics dispute this. They claim such usage has not changed the word's centuries-old, racist nature. African Americans generally never consider the usage acceptable in any context by nonblacks.

Interesting that I feel less uncomfortable writing "nigga" than "n*gger": the former really doesn't trigger down quite that same amount of hate-heritage for me.

About Tarantino -- I feel similarly to eddie thirteen on this. His use of the word is like a dare, like a badge of how audacious he is and perhaps a sign of how he believes he's an accepted part of the retro bad-ass gangster culture he seems to associate with African American characters. "So-fuckin-what, you know, I'm so fuckin supercool, I can say it, because that's how people speak... and you know, when we're shooting? I've like got... Pam Grier on this side, and Sam Jackson on the other, and I'm like, what's up my niggas, and you know, they didn't bat a fuckin eyelid. And you know, Sam just laughed, and gave me one of those, fuckin cool handshakes. And that's, how fuckin cool I am. [interview with Quentin Tarantino, made up from my head]

I think there is something queasy about a white director putting hate-speech into a black actor and black character's mouth, because it seems to legitimise and coolify the word (Samuel L. Jackson/Ordell is saying it) without any genuine legitimation (Tarantino wrote it and told the actor to say it). That's a different type of "ventriloquism", whereby a black man is speaking racial slurs handed to him by a white man, and constructing, or adding to the construction of a cultural belief, that African Americans use the word "nigga" to refer to themselves and their friends, and that this is funny, pleasantly shocking or attractively tough. I do think that the speeches Tarantino writes for Samuel L Jackson in that movie contribute to making "nigga" a more acceptable word -- and for a white man to do that through a black man, is what without further refinement I can only describe as all kinds of wrong.

Here's an example of a speech from Jackie Brown:

"Look, I hate to be the kinda nigga does a nigga a favor, then--bam--hits a nigga up for a favor in return," Jackson tells another black character in the movie. "But I'm afraid I gotta be that kinda nigga."

I don't know: reading that just makes me shake my head.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
07:14 / 01.03.06
I don't expect you meant it this way, but "we can get away with that?" has slightly uncomfortable implications for me, as though you're suggesting what "we" (white folks) can "get away with" (not get caught doing). This implication seems to be echoed in your desire not to "appear disrespectful" (italics obviously mine.)

Oh, didn't mean it like that. I meant that we can get away with using a racial slur, in song terms, as longs as a) We don't mean it as a racial slur, and b) We don't offend anyone by saying it. So singing under our breath, that's fine, as we not using it in a bad way, and no one can mistake us as doing that.
 
 
penitentvandal
07:44 / 01.03.06
by this token is it OK to mutter a racial slur when someone can't hear it, or even to say it silently in your head?

How would you tell, though? If you make a racial slur in a forest and there's no black dudes around to hear it, do you make a sound? And what is the sound of one hand whittlin'?

Y'know what I used to do when singing along to rap tracks, though? And this is really sad...I used to say 'wiccan'. Because, y'know, I'm a magician and so, of course, me and my fellow magic-types can empathise with the black community and their oppression by The Man, because we feel the oppression too. Word. And, indeed, wyrd.

And also it rhymes, sort of.
 
 
■
08:43 / 01.03.06
Somehow I can't see Flav telling us he don't wanna be called no Wiccan.
 
 
Pants Payroll
12:25 / 01.03.06
This is totally anecdotal, but I do remember one Beastie Boys track from about ten years ago that used the word "nigga," and how it made me fucking cringe. Had a tendency to skip it when I listened to the album (it was a pretty lame song anyhow, as I recall). To the best of my knowledge, it was not a faux pas that was repeated; I'm guessing someone let them know this was ill-advised.

You may be thinking of a guest appearance by Q-tip on "Get it together".
{/tangent}
 
 
Jack Fear
13:01 / 01.03.06
Got to address this...

Let us for a moment consider that Tarantino, as director, is in a position of authority over Jackson, who can only stand there gawking, as directed...

Let us also consider that Tarantino, as an actor, is portraying a character—a profoundly unpleasant character, in fact—and that Tarantino as writer understands that character is revealed through dialogue: and that by giving this line to this character, he is establishing the character as a racist asshole.

If Quentin Tarantino had cast another actor in the role of Jimmie Dimmick, would you still be making this accusation of racism? If Tarantino were only acting and directing—if he had not written the offending line that he delivers (and we don't know for sure that he did, as Pulp Fiction was co-written with Roger Avary), would this be an issue?

Fiction and assumed personas are tricky things, though, and satire even trickier. We discussed in this thread Anthony Swofford’s idea, expressed in Jarhead, that every war movie, even those that are ostensibly anti-war, end up glorifying armed conflict. Are depictions of racist attitudes and behaviors the same way? Does giving them airtime perpetuate them, even inadvertently? When Randy Newman sings “Sail Away” in the persona of a slave trader, or “Rednecks”—wherein the narrator speaks with pride of the South’s heritage of “keepin’ the niggers down,” while at the same time exposing the racism of the “enlightened” North—is he guilty of fostering the very attitudes he purports to attack?

Should we ignore racism to make it go away?
 
 
penitentvandal
13:03 / 01.03.06
Somehow I can't see Flav telling us he don't wanna be called no Wiccan.

Yeah, it didn't work in all circumstances...nowadays I just sort of hum when it comes up. Which can make singing along to Bustah Rhymes' This Means War! difficult...

'Now I find the time to get with all my loyal hmmm-hmm,
Feel the love an' appreciation of every one of my hmmm-hm'

Man, it sucks to be white.*

*Disclaimer added to prevent thread moving off in entirely foreseeable contextual direction: sarcasm, people!
 
 
grant
15:37 / 01.03.06
Jack Fear speaks truth.


Even deeper, though:
Here's an example of a speech from Jackie Brown:

"Look, I hate to be the kinda nigga does a nigga a favor, then--bam--hits a nigga up for a favor in return," Jackson tells another black character in the movie. "But I'm afraid I gotta be that kinda nigga."

I don't know: reading that just makes me shake my head.

It's important to realize that part of what's going on there is also a nod to blaxploitation flicks like Dolemite, which I think might have been the first time the n-word showed up in cinema. And was being spoken by black people. (I'm honestly not sure about that, but it seems like it could be so.) At any rate, part of the blaxploitation thing, which also gets carried on into hip-hop, was the idea of "keeping it real" and having people talk like they do on the street.

It was obviously a kind of extreme and caricaturish "real," designed to shock audiences. I think that's a big part of what Tarantino's doing, too. It's still shocking and... over the top. It's over the top.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:44 / 01.03.06
That's a factor that's not necessarily in Tarantino's favour, though. I don't think people treat the use of the word in dialogue in something like, say, The Wire, with the same suspicion as they might the use of the word in Tarantino's work, precisely because they suspect it's done not for realism , but for effect. And Jack - interestingly, I don't think it was the character Tarantino played in Pulp Fiction that everybody was thinking of. It's more his black characters.
 
 
Jack Fear
16:04 / 01.03.06
Mm. Was responding specifically to Eddie Thirteen's allegations, which seemed to me to be six kinds of wrongheaded.

I'm in broad agreement about Tarantino's writing of his black characters—and I don't want to derail an interesting discussion—but it's worth noting that his white characters are all pretty ludicrous, pathetic creatures as well, as are his Asians and Latins.

I think that with QT's films, satirical intent is pretty much a given—at least I hope so, please God—and, as I proposed, satire makes things kind of slippery. Also, as Grant suggests above, Tarantino characters are less about, well, character than they are about, y'know, other movies.
 
 
eddie thirteen
23:51 / 01.03.06
Yeah, but I don't think Tarantino sees Jimmie as a racist asshole. (Granted, it's not as though anyone in Pulp Fiction is wholly sympathetic -- I do think he sees Jimmie as something of an asshole, yes, but no moreso than many other characters in the film.) He and Jules seem to be friends; the one glimpse we see of Bonnie (Jimmie's wife) sure seems to indicate that she's black. Sorry, but I have to stand by my "honorary nigga" reading of the character, and I do think it's significant that this was the role Tarantino chose for himself to play.

This doesn't mean that I see Tarantino as a crossburning racist or anything of the sort, just that...whatever is going on in that scene (and I have a feeling that lengthy film studies papers have been written just about it) makes me kinda squirmy. I've been giving the matter of racist undercurrents in the work of creators who would surely not identify themselves as such quite a bit of thought of late (perhaps unsurprisingly), and this particular fifteen seconds of film is the one I've dwelled on a lot. I think this is a different thread altogether, though; I'm not sure whether it belongs in Film or Headshop.
 
 
eddie thirteen
23:55 / 01.03.06
And, to add grist to the mill and quite possibly make such a thread a rhetorical nightmare, I am curious as to how and why satire makes such subjects slippery in your view, Jack. It's a term that I've seen come up quite a bit the past few months, and quite frankly, it's beginning to strike me as something of a critical copout; surely even satire is not above criticism?
 
 
grant
13:21 / 02.03.06
It's because satire puts things in quote marks to make fun of them -- it's hard to tell how much is ridicule and how much is quotation.
 
 
Axolotl
22:25 / 02.03.06
Eddie: I also seem to remember that Jimmie's wife is black. This coupled with the fact that he is referred to as Jule's ex-partner would seem to back up your reading of QT's interpretation of his character. However that seems to suggest that he is being wilfully ignorant of the implications of the n-word at the very least, even without bringing any sub-conscious power relations into it.
I'm also reminded of an interview I saw with Chuck D (who definitely subscribes to position 2 as defined by Flyboy) about the horror he felt when he saw a 50 Cent concert in Australia where during a call and response part he had the entire stadium shouting the N-word. While I'm not entirely agreeing with his view on the word, you can understand the emotions he felt seeing a stadium largely filled with white people shouting this word given its historical meaning.
 
 
c0nstant
04:10 / 03.03.06
just a quick thought, but in my peer group the phrase "wassup my nigga" is employed (infrequently, I might add) as a greeting. Certainly no malice is intended, in fact I feel there is an element of aspiration present.

black culture (specifically black urban culture) is seen as cool (although this is conforming to stereotypes, somewhat), and as such is something that my white friends seem to want to tap into and emulate.
 
 
*
04:28 / 03.03.06
c0n, you might read Everything But The Burden, which addresses this specific issue.
 
 
c0nstant
04:49 / 03.03.06
I wish I was in a osition to buy books at the moment...

upthread someone made a comment about "earning" the right to use the word "nigga". This interests me as my biological grandfather was black and my grandmother was white, as was my father. For all intents and purposes I appear white (the only thing I've inherited gentically is a rather nice all year round tan and lovely hair). I have however been on the recieving end of much racial abuse, in reference to my mother, I do not feel this gives me the right to use the term "nigga" however, but it makes me wonder if one has to be identifiably black in order to qualify to use it?

could I, for instance, use it in a situation with a sympathetic black group who knew of my racial background?

just something I've idly pondered for a while.
 
 
c0nstant
04:52 / 03.03.06
my personal opinion of this, however, is no. I do feel slightly exonerated from singing along to lyrics though, as I feel I identify with black people (from an experiential point of view, that is), more so than your average caucasian at any rate.
 
 
*
05:09 / 03.03.06
Why would you want to, is my question?

What's so attractive about this word that makes us want to start a thread about whether or not we can use it, to try to think of ways and situations which will allow us to "get away with it"? We could do with some introspection on this point, I think. Has there ever been a similar thread about the use of the word "fag"? I think so, but it didn't feel like this, probably because there were pooves present.

This still seems like a thread full of white people (with the possible exception of your good self, c0n) talking amongst ourselves, in a space which is very safe for white people and very not safe for Black people*, about how we can get away with using a word which is only ever used by white people with the effect, if not the intention, of disempowering Black people. Am I wrong about this?

I'm not asserting that everyone here is consciously or unconsciously searching out ways to disempower Black people, but there's something that strikes me as really icky about the dynamic of this thread, completely aside from the actual use of the word, and I am having trouble articulating what it is.

*willing to debate this here or in another thread
 
 
illmatic
06:57 / 03.03.06
This still seems like a thread full of white people (with the possible exception of your good self, c0n) talking amongst ourselves, in a space which is very safe for white people and very not safe for Black people*, about how we can get away with using a word which is only ever used by white people with the effect, if not the intention, of disempowering Black people

Id Entity: You've nailed it. I think this is exactly what I don't like about this thread. For the record, cOn isn't the only person here with black ancestry - my father was half black, half chinese, but I've come out looking white.

I also think the intent of the thread is blurred. Are we discussing the use of the word "n***a" in art, or in reference to our own subjectivity - singing along with records etc? A lot of it seem borne out of Kovacs discomfort with finding himself uttering the word by accident, rather than the word's delibrate usage in an film context.

I personally find something a bit odd about the implied disconnect between this intense scrutiny of sematics and one's interaction with people of different ethnicities. It's as if people posting here are incredibly worried about policing our language in the abstract/on the internet, but don't have any day to day experience to balance this out, or found our judgements on.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
07:54 / 03.03.06
I used to ask myself this question all the time ("is it ever okay for me, as a white guy, to ever use the word 'nigga'?") until I got some black friends. Then I asked them.

It didn't help. My best friend is black and claims I'm allowed, but that doesn't cut it for me. Having a black best friend might validate me in some circumstances but I don't think this is one of them. Besides, it's not like I have any real reason to use it beyond quoting something. Being frequently greeted with "My Nigga!" doesn't give me any urge to use it myself.

So really, I'm clueless about whether or not I'm "allowed" to even quote the word. I don't think I can offer much to this discussion beyond my personal experience.

When quoting lyrics or movies, I do not omit the n-word. Around my friends, anyway. I haven't ever really been in a situation where I'm quoting, say, Three 6 Mafia or selected scenes from Pulp Fiction around total strangers. I'm not sure what I'd do then. I'd probably go ahead and represent the material as faithfully as I could and hope that, in the event of a conflict, there will be someone around to vouch for my character.

"But what about those who hear it and are made uncomfortable by your use of it, but would rather not cause a scene and call you on it?" Shit, I dunno. Barbelith answers many questions for me, but I don't think it'll take care of this one. I have a feeling that if I'm ever going to have to deal with it, it'll be with a situation-by-situation plan.
 
  

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