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Islamophobia- the liberalism of fools?

 
  

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17:13 / 04.03.06
I believe I've linked to this before.

Anyone who wishes to make the argument that cultural differences between Christians and Muslims lead to inevitable conflict can assuredly find examples of conflict in history with which to support their case. Equally, anyone who wishes to assert that this is not so can assuredly find examples of Muslim-Christian cooperation in history with which to support their case. This becomes a non-argument.

Instead, I'd like to point out that the idea of cultural differences between Christians and Muslims essentializes culture and confuses it with religion. There are many Christians in the Arab world living among Arab Muslims, and there are many non-Arab Muslims living in the US and the UK in largely Christian-based societies. If you mean that doctrinal differences bring them into conflict, you are grossly oversimplifying the variety of doctrines present in the large religious families known as Christianity and Islam. Obviously, inflating the actions of a few governments into the actions of the Christian world as a whole is a gross misstep. Other nations as Christian as the US and the UK which did not go to war in Iraq. Some Christian churches have also been speaking out against the war.

(I also find it slightly amusing that you corrected Rex on his use of inter- rather than intra- when you persistently misspell Christian.)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:00 / 04.03.06
I think you are making a fudimental mistake in claiming that wars between Muslims and Christains have been over resources.

Really? OK, that's cool, I'm clearly not feeling your position. Could you give me an example of a situation in which Christians and Muslims went to war for no other reason that that they disliked each other?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
06:14 / 05.03.06
I think the word you were looking for was intra-christain conflict. But usage corrections aside, yes there have, but more often than not, they, unlike islamo-christain conflicts, are over economic or social advantages, rather than simple cultural friction.

What, even the troubles between Catholic and Protestants? What about the crusade against Byzantium?
 
 
Triumvir
13:48 / 05.03.06
haha. Looks like i've argued myself into a hole here. I guess I was just bringing my social and religious biases to this issue and creating cultural clashes where there weren't any. Congrats guys, you have convinced me.
 
 
ShadowSax
15:42 / 06.03.06
Writers protest Islamic totalitarianism, using words such as: "freedom, equal opportunity and secular values for all."

Another quote:

"They added that the clashes over the caricatures "revealed the necessity of the struggle for these universal values. The struggle will not be won by arms, but in the ideological field.

"It is not a clash of civilizations nor an antagonism of West and East that we are witnessing, but a global struggle that confronts democrats and theocrats."


I'll come down on the side of universal rights as a progression of humanity as espoused by Salman Rushdie, Somali-born Dutch feminist, writer and filmmaker Ayaan Hirsi Ali; Iranian writer Chahla Chafiq, who is exiled in France; French writer Caroline Fourest; Irshad Manji, a Ugandan refugee and writer living in Canada; Mehdi Mozaffari, an Iranian academic exiled in Denmark; Maryam Namazie, an Iranian writer living Britain; Antoine Sfeir, director of a French review examining the Middle East; Charlie Hebdo director Philippe Val; and Ibn Warraq, a US academic of Indian and Pakistani origin who wrote a book titled Why I am not a Muslim".
 
 
Not in the Face
16:20 / 06.03.06
The problem with universal rights as a progression of humanity is that these rights didn't exist in any meaningful way, 150 years ago and even less so 200 years ago. So are countries that now espouse them somehow improved? Are the people within those countries somehow better than their ancestors? And if so, then why get upset about lack of progressive values in other countries - after all its inevitable? Or are there good universal values and bad ones (i.e. secualr vs religous ones)? And of course what I call universal values someone else calls politics - for instance the US still hasn't signed the Convention for the Rights of the Child. Along with Somalia. But Iran and Syria have. Which is the progressive nation?

Unless its not in which case either 'we' are better than they are or our own 'progress' is an illusionary idea which can easily be reversed. For instance I think you could argue, and I'm sure someone has, that the widespread adoption of secular values had, and still has, a lot to do with the wealth and power of Western nations and that if this went away - say for instance losing our ridiculously cheap energy supplies - that those laws would be regressed pretty quickly.

Far better, for me, to view universal rights as always existing whether or not they are applied and that it is the measure of a nation's ability to apply them in practice that is noteworthy. In this view all nations are failing to one degree or another and being progressive isn't about being in the lead, but recognising how far we have to go.

Also I don't think that anyone is making apologies for fundamentalist groups or dictators/authoritarian states as your comment implies. Without a doubt conditions of life for the average person are better in the West than anywhere else in the world and a large part of that is due to the adoption of secular values as universal values. And its no surprise that all those people you list live in the West - people in their home countries live in a state of fear and repression. If you asked the average Iranian, Syrian or Chinese if they would prefer not to live in fear of the government's secret police and repressive laws then they would probably say yes, but I'm not sure they would want to give up their religous beliefs or accept that holding onto those beliefs made them less advanced.
 
 
quixote
01:55 / 07.03.06
Would this discussion benefit from definitions of terms? It seems a lot of us are talking past each other. Islamophobia, for instance, doesn't really mean fear of Islam, as such. It's used, really, as shorthand for fear of fanatics who'll blow up good people on the train.

Remembering that would make it possible to also remember that expending energy against Islam isn't really useful. Bomb-throwing fanatics come in all stripes. It's the violence we fear, so it's the violence that we should deal with.

All the stuff about culture clashes is also largely code words. Nobody is afraid of pita bread. Some Westerners may not like Arabian music, but they're not afraid of it. "Culture clash" is used to talk about human rights. It's shorthand for fear of fanatics who'll try to make us live by their rules. Like violence, if the fear is given its right name, it's easy to see that not all Muslims are fanatics, and not all fanatics are Muslim.

Personally, I think we can't be phobic enough about fanatics of any stripe. We've given them a free pass for far too long, out of respect for what they call religion. Now the really dangerous ones are sitting on 10,000 nukes, starting wars, and shipping red heifers to Israel to hasten on the Last Days. Enough already. Let's get extreme about not tolerating extremism, whether it calls itself Islam or anything else.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
06:10 / 07.03.06
Islamophobia, for instance, doesn't really mean fear of Islam, as such. It's used, really, as shorthand for fear of fanatics who'll blow up good people on the train.

I always thought it was the other way round, or to be more specific, that it covers hatred (rather than fear) of both Islamic terrorists and Islam in general. Like McLeod says in the first post: "a rage against reaction, a fury at the recalcitrance of the concrete and the stubbornness of tradition".
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:12 / 07.03.06
Yes - of a number of fudges in this thread, that strikes me as the least convincing so far. We don't need a special word for fear of people who might blow us up - we have "fear" for that.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
20:50 / 07.03.06
haha. Looks like i've argued myself into a hole here. I guess I was just bringing my social and religious biases to this issue and creating cultural clashes where there weren't any. Congrats guys, you have convinced me.

Threadrot, but- Mothersuperior gets a handshake and an e-pint.
 
 
jamesPD
19:25 / 12.07.08
I'm about to pop to the pub, but just came across the following from Lenin's Tomb.
 
  

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