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Names

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10:02 / 13.02.06

With so many of my friends getting married at the moment, the subject of surnames has come up in conversation quite a lot – particularly about whether women will take their husband’s family name. While many of the women have been keen to keep their maiden name for work, some have said that they found it impossible to maintain two second names as institutions seems to favour consistency and they ultimately acquiesced to the traditional arrangement.
But why, I would ask, not just stick to your original name across the board? ‘Because of children’, is invariably the reply. What to call the children?

This generation is, it seems, still very attached to the idea of family names, of children sharing a name with their parents, and the more I hear this the more it intrigues me. If I were to marry, I certainly wouldn’t want my partner to take my surname; it would feel weirdly incestuous. And if we had children, I honestly don’t think it would bother me if they had a different surname from me, any more than it bothers me that my partner has a different surname from me. If I had children, I think I’d like to choose brand new surnames for them. We could choose second names that complemented their first names. But when I say this to people, they look at me as if I’m missing something really obvious; something that if I don’t get already, there’s no point in explaining.

So, I’m asking you. Where do you stand on all this? What’s in a name? With marriage, would there be / was there any name changing? And with children, would / do you want them to share a family name? Is it a mistake to treat second names like first names?

10:33 / 13.02.06

When my sister got married I asked her what she what she was going to do about her surname. She decided to change to her husband's for a couple of reasons. The first being that it made life easier with regards to paperwork, etc (she couldn't be bothered to write a double-barrelled name every time she had to sign for something). The second being that she lives in Ireland with her husband now, and feels that changing her surname symbolises her joining with his family.

My own feelings on the matter, considering I have no intention of getting married, is that it really doesn't matter. Most people seem to follow the (admittedly patriarchial) path of taking the husband's surname. Double-barrelled names are all well and good, but what's the child of such a union supposed to do? Triple-barrel their name?

Actually, in the unlikely event of my getting married, I'd probably suggest to my intended that we choose a new surname to symbolise the creation of our new family unit.

Something cool, and timeless. Like...Skywalker for instance.

Tryphena Absent

10:45 / 13.02.06

I have my mother's surname (parent's choice) so this subject is very close to my heart.

Basically my dad has his surname. Me and my mum have the feminine version of a Polish surname and my brother has the masculine version. So we have two surnames in my immediate family with three different spellings.

If I were to marry I would not change my surname, nor would I give my children their father's surname exclusively. I would have to have two, one with each surname and then, if they got bored later they could swap. When I say this to people casually they ask me if I think children would be comfortable with different surnames, as if family unity is somehow embedded in a name. To which I reply that they are the uncomfortable ones and I suspect it wouldn't effect the sibling relationship in any way at all.

10:55 / 13.02.06

Here, you can keep your name, or take your significant other´s name. Or you can have both names (Scully-Mulder or Stallone-Schwarzenegger, for example).

Children:
You can decide with your partner, which last name your child will get. But children cannot have double last names, it´s either your or your partner´s name. If you cannot decide, the state will choose one of the two names for your child.

And I´ve actually once seen a triple instead of a double name. I don´t know, how that is possible.

My opinion:
I´d keep my last name, because it´s very easy to write, speak and remember (unlike my father´s name, which noone ever got right) and I like it.

And I don´t care if my children would get my name or not.
An exception would be, if my so`s last name is as ridiculously complicated as my father´s, because I would not want them to suffer because of it.

11:00 / 13.02.06

Nina, if some sense of family identity isn’t embedded in a name, then why not just make up a new surname for each or all of your children? I understand why you wouldn’t pass on their father’s surname exclusively, but why pass it on at all?

it´s either your or your partner´s name. If you cannot decide, the state will choose one of the two names for your child.

That's really interesting, Mist. I had no idea. This is in Germany, right?

11:00 / 13.02.06

I suppose it's one of those things that, seeing as it doesn't really matter, people tend to 'do the done thing,' ie, take the path of least resistance about.

That said though, I'm going to stand up for patriarchy here - If I'd had my mother's last name inflicted on me I would, and you can truat me on this, be a far more traumatised individual than what I already am.

11:05 / 13.02.06

I like to use the very sensible Spanish approach of using all the names, as well as their relation to each other: Qalyn Michel of the Ranqun and Donovar of the MacDagger and McKlon and the Stackey and Chapeau of the Montpelier and DuBois. If I ever marry any of my babymamas (don't hold your breath), I would require my wife to add all of that, plus all of hers. My children, Emperor, Vizene and Crud, seem to like going by one name.

11:24 / 13.02.06

On the subject of double-barrelled names, is it common for only one of the couple to take the new portmanteau name? I notice, for example, that while Heather is now Mills-McCartney, Paul is not.

Tryphena Absent

11:43 / 13.02.06

I understand why you wouldn’t pass on their father’s surname exclusively, but why pass it on at all?

I might change my mind about liking my child's surname. If it's my own or my partner's than it makes no odds if I dislike it later, it's just a name but if I chose it and it becomes distasteful. Yikes. I have no problem with people picking random surnames, I'm just a bit fickle. I worry horribly about picking first names as well- what if I don't like them later on?

Tryphena Absent

11:44 / 13.02.06

smoothly, it's almost always the women who double barrel their names. Probably for the potential future children.

13:05 / 13.02.06

That's really interesting, Mist. I had no idea. This is in Germany, right?

Right. It´s relatively new, maybe 5 - 8 years.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

13:35 / 13.02.06

My as yet unofficial fiance has said she would rather have my name, because nobody pronounces hers correctly and it pisses her off.

As far as children go, I don't know if I would want to give them my last name. As it stands, I am the last of my line with my grandfathers last name (my mothers last name as well, mind you)and the more I find out about my familly I don't think passing along the 'legacy' would be all that healthy. Of course it could be genetic, and not an ancient gypsy curse from when we were asked to leave Ireland, in which case the name wouldn't matter.

As an aside, first and middle names for any children that might come along will follow the formula [Traditional Irish Name] + [Name of an X-Men character] = Liam Magneto.

22:50 / 13.02.06

Nina, I disagree that your idea wouldn't cause any problems between siblings. With one child being named for pop, and one for mom, how could they not speculate about favoritism or division? Children are very black-and-white thinkers. Why did I get dad's name? Why not mom's? Why did s/he get the other?

Does anyone know if it's legal to make up a surname for your children? I guess I always have assumed that legally one had to name children after the father or mother, unless the child was adopted by someone with a different surname. I think it would be interesting to make up some sort of hybrid name out of both parents' surnames - not a hyphenation, but a mashup of sorts.

23:06 / 13.02.06

That seems like the kind of thing anyone but a total sissy would would get over pretty quickly, unless you were actually pitting your children against each other, like I do with Emperor and Crud.

Poor Crud.

23:25 / 13.02.06

In Germany at least it seems you are legally obliged to name your child after one or other parent. Which surprised me.
To be honest, I always assumed that you could name your child whatever you liked. And it just seems a bit nuts to try and stop people. I mean, it wouldn't take much determination to get around any law preventing you. If I wanted to name my son Fellatio Hornblower, I could change *my* name by deed poll to Hornblower shortly before he was born, then change it back after his birth certificate was written.

I like the idea of a mashup name. Although it's interesting that people do seem attached to the idea of having a family name of some sort.

I think ibis has a good point about how naming one child after one parent and another after the other could be divisive in its own way. First, who gets to go first, then what happens to a third? To me it just makes more sense for everyone to have a unique name. Mum and dad have different names, Fellatio and Clitoris have different names. Simple. I'm still don't see any reason for doing otherwise. It wouldn't make you any less of a family would it?

23:30 / 13.02.06

It's interesting, Smoothly, that you didn't name your second child Cunnilingus.

23:36 / 13.02.06

Cunnilingus is a bit of a mouthful. Clitoris has a ring to it.

Tryphena Absent

23:37 / 13.02.06

Does anyone know if it's legal to make up a surname for your children?

In the US I suspect not. You can't gender the name there so it probably has to be completely hereditary.

In Holland I think the children have to be named after the father though I could be wrong?

Nina, I disagree that your idea wouldn't cause any problems between siblings. With one child being named for pop, and one for mom, how could they not speculate about favoritism or division? Children are very black-and-white thinkers. Why did I get dad's name? Why not mom's? Why did s/he get the other?

Well then you explain why. Children might like to play favourite but they're not stupid, you have to have made a decision about whose name comes first, it's perfectly explainable if you've already had the discussion. I know people who were named in this way and it didn't do them any harm. I dealt with stepdad/illegitimate/married questions for years and that never presented a particular problem for me.

23:45 / 13.02.06

But, Nina, you haven't explained your desire for your children to have one parent's name or the other, except that if you dislike the name later, it 'makes no odds' because (I assume) the choice of name wasn't yours, so you can't blame yourself. Which could be achieved just as well by sticking a pin in the phone book, or asking me to name 'em.
If sharing names doesn't matter, why share names?

Tryphena Absent

23:46 / 13.02.06

There's a site here that states In principle all Dutch children bear their father's surname. However, children born out of wedlock who are not acknowledged by their father, bear the surname of their mother.

This may have changed recently because European law has changed the Dutch legal system in this area quite dramatically.

23:58 / 13.02.06

Some of my siblings hold double barrelled names, I do not as it would create a situation in which my Christian name was a repetition of one of my surnames without the "Mac" prefix. I don't think it matters really or it never did to me. Do people hold such great attatchment to their surnames?
Does a triple barrelled name occur only when people with double barrelled names marry? Tripple barrelled is also used sometimes in situations with step-siblings?
Useless fact: I do also know a man who, upon marrying her, took on his wife's last name and dropped his own.

Tryphena Absent

00:01 / 14.02.06

Why would I just want to pick a name when I could give my name away? My name is quite a lot better than one I could pick out of a phone book in the UK. I'm sorry but it is. I'd tell you what it was but I never use it online because it's so traceable. There are only two people in this country that share it.

02:22 / 14.02.06

Ja, good point, Nina.

Strange you think of sharing a surname as incestuous, never thought of it like that before. Personally, I wouldn't mind taking my partner's surname as the one I have now is... well, I don't see it as naff or anything but I've no great love for it. Plus, as family traditions/hand-me-downs go the only one we seem to have is roast dinner every Sunday... Besides, I wouldn't mind thumbing my nose at the whole woman becomes part of the man's identity thing.

And what if my wife has an awesome surname. Like Remington? Or Hulk?

As for kids, my gut says I'd probably give them the same surname as my partner or myself for comfort's sake. Surely it's easier on a kid if they know they're a [SURNAME]?

02:23 / 14.02.06

composite families. ahhh.....

my [sadly now ex-] partner has her ex-husband's name, as that was the name under which she took her qualifications. she and i were together near ten years but never married (against my principles and she didn't fancy round two) now he [ex-hubby] has re-married and is expecting and my ex is uncomfortable with her name being shared with his new bride...

she gets on with her ex- and he has been a supportive father to the children, so i never had to assume the 'role' of dad - which was nice, but...

all her working life (an artistic discipline and teaching - she is now head of a tertiary dept.) is in his name, and her children, who live with her, have his name. her dilemma is to lose the surname and go back to her father's (her maiden) name, but that is thirty years past, or what...?

the dilemma a name can wrought if you get sucked into the patriarchy of marriage, eh? [

]

personally, i have always fancied getting married and taking the woman's name - but then, i never fancied getting married, so that is totally moot, so ignore me.

06:06 / 14.02.06

I'm actually living this issue right now, in that we have to decide what to call our son. Despite the fact that it makes me uncomfortable, we've agreed to give him my surname (we're not married). However, after reading this thread those niggleling thoughts are bobbing to the surface again.

I might have a rethink.

07:44 / 14.02.06

Strange you think of sharing a surname as incestuous, never thought of it like that before.

Yeah, I don't want to over-state that feeling. But the only Weavings I know are members of my family, and so Weavings are not for fucking. 'Mrs. Weaving' is my mother. Knowaddamean?

I wouldn't mind taking my partner's surname...Besides, I wouldn't mind thumbing my nose at the whole woman becomes part of the man's identity thing.

I know what you mean, except that you taking your partner's name isn't subverting the tradition very far, is it. It's just a version of the same thing; one partner is still relinquishing hir name to the other. If you dislike the convention, why buy into it at all?

As for kids, my gut says I'd probably give them the same surname as my partner or myself for comfort's sake. Surely it's easier on a kid if they know they're a [SURNAME]?

This is the thing. What's the comfort? It's easier on the kid how? Lots of kids don't have the same name as at least one of their parents. Is it bad for them, do you think?

08:18 / 14.02.06

This worry will shortly be a thing of the past as soon we'll be able to use our unique ID card number for a surname.

11:42 / 14.02.06

I didn't know that getting the 'double-name' was still that popular... I thought if people weren't changing their names to their husbands', then they were just sticking with their maiden names. (which I prefer. Even easier with the paperwork.)

When I got married I wanted to change my name to my mother-in-law's last name, but only because it's 17 letters long and it's all aristocratic...

Tryphena Absent

11:52 / 14.02.06

I'm not double barreled because my surname would be an insane 18 letters long (*********-********* ). Can you imagine filling in forms with a surname like that? My parents apparently could.

A

12:11 / 14.02.06

As an aside, first and middle names for any children that might come along will follow the formula [Traditional Irish Name] + [Name of an X-Men character] = Liam Magneto.

little Banshee Banshee is going to be a very lucky child.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

12:12 / 14.02.06

I guess it all depends on who's got the best name. If you were to marry someone called Chucknorris it would be far more tempting to take their name than if they were called Imacunt.

12:42 / 14.02.06

Does anyone know if it's legal to make up a surname for your children?

In the US, different states have different regulations about naming. When I had my daughter in Washington state, I was allowed to give her whatever last name I chose (even one that wasn't her father's or mine), but I was not allowed to put her father's name on the birth certificate unless he consented.

I will say that I was as concerned as some others seem to be about whether she would actually like her name or not. I picked something that was not commonly used as a first name, Venus, although there are a few notable exceptions, but then I gave her a couple of ordinary middle names with unorthodox spellings so that if she gets tired of having such an unusual name she does have other options - Francyne Leigha. She could also go by Fran, Frances, Frannie, Leigh, or whatever else suits her fancy. So far, she's really happy being the only Venus she knows.

Whether to give her father's last name or mine was a no-brainer. His is easy to say and spell, whereas mine is definitely not.

13:17 / 14.02.06

This worry will shortly be a thing of the past as soon we'll be able to use our unique ID card number for a surname

I do know someone who changed her surname to a number. I thought it was kinda cool.

14:00 / 14.02.06

Wasn't there a US President that took his wife's last name for the political and social advantages?

Hattie's Kitchen

14:33 / 14.02.06

Two of my male friends recently got civilly partnered, and one has decided to take his partner's name as his married surname, because his own surname was one of the commonest in Britain, and also as an extra show of his commitment to the partnership.

So I can no longer get away with thinking: "Ha, silly heteronormative constructs!"

I must say that I never understood the reasoning behind women balking at taking on their husband's name in order to preserve their own identity, when they're carrying their father's name to begin with. You're refuting one patriarchal construct only to preserve another.

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