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Mangoin' up the Magick

  
  

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Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:11 / 26.02.02
mod3: I have been a practical ritual magickian for yonks & donks, I've read reams of magickal/ethical theory, I spend plen-tee much time in meditation, I'm halfway thru a degree which requires enough math to sink a battleship, I'm shacked up on a semi-regular basis with a pure mathematician... and I still don't understand half of your posts in the dreaded dizZy thread.

Come on. I've read your posts elsewhere on the board. You write damn well when you've a mind to. Don't tell me you couldn't have clarified your points just a little?

Everyone else: Horse. Flog. Dead. Quit.

Part of the problem is the subject matter of That Thread. I know that the concept of duality is vital to a lot of people's belief systems. But there's more than one system being espoused here; I'd go so far as to say there was one for each poster.

WE ARE NEVER GOING TO AGREE ON THIS.

What we can do is work round it.

Personally, as a chaote, I feel that my magickal system places no ethical demands on me whatever. Shock! Horror! But there's still the little matter of my own conscience, and what it requires of me. No, there's nothing in my path that says I can't run around spewing curses and love-spells and goodness knows what to the four winds, if I felt like it. Right. Fine. Me bad scary left-hand/low/black mage. Guess what? I don't care! Why don't I care? Because if you strolled in to my house tomorrow with, say, Buddah's phone number and an itemized spreadsheet of my Good Karma vs Bad- I wouldn't change a damn thing. Because, get this: despite the abscence in my belief system of a big payoff of Kozmic Kandy if I'm a good ickle girl, I actually want to do what's right! Amazing, innit?

I am seriously fed up with this bollocks, me. Being godless, Im short on on prophets, so I'll leave you with these words:

"We are finer creatures than this, and all eternity is our playground."- Bill Hicks.

Learn, guys. Learn.

Peace out,

MCxx
 
 
Vadrice
01:33 / 27.02.02
that was a very nice eulogy for those illin vibes, Mordant. I shall remember them fondly.

~goes ice skating~
 
 
—| x |—
05:12 / 27.02.02
Bee mopped.

[for posterity’s sake there was a rather unfriendly post here directed at Ierne in light of hir above posts]

The Cleaner (the better?)
m3

[ 05-03-2002: Message edited by: modthree ]
 
 
—| x |—
06:29 / 27.02.02
And because it upsets me to have to have been so mean, for all of you, a poem is called for.

m3
 
 
angel
08:09 / 27.02.02
I think several renditions of the old Mango tune are required here.

I don't know the arguement you are referring to but a little of the Peace Mango is good for us all.

Peace

angel
xx oo xx
 
 
gozer the destructor
11:03 / 27.02.02
SNAFU PRINCIPLE

SITUATION NORMAL, ALL FUCKED UP

  
 
Ierne
12:17 / 27.02.02
Thanks for your post, modthree. It was definitely the clearest and most illuminating one so far. It clearly shows you consider me stupid, bitchy, hypocritical, wrong-headed...basically all the things you insinuated underneath your "challenging," "difficult" theorizing throughout the DiZzy thread. I'm very glad that it's all out of your system now.

If it helps any, the request that May not take my comments personally was a reference to PMs she had sent me re: another thread concerning the subject of duality. It was not relevant to your specific thread until you made it so. My apologies for any confusion.

The reference to me as "Princess Hot Shit of the Magick forum" is amusing, but has no basis in reality. The very fact that I risked looking like an complete asshole (and succeeded, by the looks of it!) – both here and in the dizzy thread – in trying to get you to say what you mean should make it clear that I don't have much ego invested in what folks on a bulletin board think of me. But you're entitled to your opinion.

Now are you going to stop this shit and move on?
 
 
penitentvandal
10:07 / 02.03.02
Right. Time for me to once more metamorphose into The Annoying Old Parable Man...Excuse me while I get a straw hat and a piece of grass to chew on.

About a year ago last month, I got involved in a sorry excuse for a scrap in a bar. It wasn't much - some bloke stotted my head off a table and I flipped his stool out from under him, blink and you'd have missed it - but the manager of the bar still felt impelled to throw the both of us, and our mates, out. Now, I found this unfair, at the time - head-stott blokey had started it, I was just minding my business like a good little boy (for once) - but looking back on it I consider it a good decision: the two of us remaining in the bar would spoil things for the other patrons, as would one of us staying in the bar, as would any of our friends staying in the bar. So ejecting the whole lot of us from the premises was The Right Thing To Do.

In this same spirit, therefore, may I suggest, Ierne, that yourself and Modthree please do take your little scuffle to the Conversation thread? I'm trynna have a (metaphorical) drink here, f'f'cks'sake...
 
 
—| x |—
10:53 / 02.03.02
part 3 of 3

If you are only now joining our little wander, then, before you read the post below, you have the option to begin here.

I hoped you all enjoyed your tour of that topsy-turvy Z land. Here is a mango for us all to share.

<takes bite, passes it on>

So you see that, really, there’s not much mathematics involved in diZzy, but it is a kind of logic. But it certainly isn’t the logic that I’ve taken in school all these years!

Oh hello Mordant! Thanks again for the coffee. Personally, I don’t buy into that “good” karma and “bad” karma stuff and I don’t think Siddhartha (the human who became the Buddha) did either. Wasn’t there a thread about this not so long ago? Suffice to say I go with the translation of ‘karma’ as ‘action’: we all play a role. But I hear ya’ about wanting to do what’s right…You know, I think that you’re right: there is a “system” for each poster and I’m sure you’d agree that we could substitute ‘reader’ with ‘poster’ and you’d still be right.

So Lothar was asking me when we were all hangin’ out as the “uncool” people:

quote:What sort of 'perspective on what magick might be about' do you want to put forth?

To which I’ll say,

“Yours (inclusive; i.e. each and every one of ‘you’ )”

Peace and mangos all,
(1 ^ 2) + (2 ^ 3) + (3 ^ 1) = 0 (mod 3)

[ 03-03-2002: Message edited by: modthree ]
 
 
Ierne
13:02 / 03.03.02
Did you mean 'wank' or 'plank'? - Lothar Tuppan

Either one is applicable, I suppose.
(Thanks, Lothar.)

velvetvandal: I appreciate your parable, and I understand your reasoning. The problem is that what we (not me but all of us in the Magick)are dealing with in modthree is an extremely insecure person who demands a great deal of attention and (like most trolls) really doesn't care what sort of attention it is. Hir linking from one of hir threads to another to another is a obvious - if tedious - example.

To argue with modthree in the Conversation will not only feed hir craving for attention (and I personally don't like feeding the trolls, no matter how articulate or clever-clever they make themselves out to be) but would also compound the view that more than a few non-Magick posters have of us as "the freak pit". Perhaps this is modthree's goal; I'm not sure and I really don't care.

I do care about the Magick forum, however, and I do care about folks that come here looking for information and some sort of guidance on their path. People that are just starting out with Magick - any type of Magick - will have difficulty discerning people who really know what they're talking about and people who just sound like they know what they're talking about. This has far more to do with lack of experience than lack of intelligence on the part of the novice.

I wouldn't call myself an "expert" in the Magickal field, but Magick's been an integral part of my life for over 15 years and I know a bullshitter when I see one. modthree is one, and if you've actually gone through hir "doors" and reached this point, folks, you've probably come to a similar conclusion.
 
 
Rev. Wright
14:09 / 03.03.02
quote: "No more! No more! No more Mr. Nice Guy."
P.W.E.I.


Quoting the Poppies, 'Wehey the lads'.

By the way the negative shit, posters here seem to be butting heads over, is getting rather tedious. Seems to result from a lack of flexibility or mulitiple perception. Its certainly putting me off posting anything, until peoples minds are back on the job at hand.

'Can I kick it?
Yes you can.'
Tribe Called Quest.

[ 03-03-2002: Message edited by: will it work wright? ]
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
04:10 / 04.03.02
This is not the magick.

Irene, modthree, neither of you are evil or bad your just being *expletive deleted* bull headed. Drop this stuff or take it elseware. I for one am not learning anything about magick here, unless this is about inflated egos leading to conflict in magick groups...

This thread has been quite funny but I'd rather see it under conversation.

*not trying to be mean, don't hate me, I like both you guys's posts.
 
 
—| x |—
05:49 / 04.03.02
quote:Wehey the lads.

More poppies:

"Bee mop it, bee mop it."
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
"Are you aware of the razor's edge on which you're living?"

gotta' be
m3
 
 
mate
03:01 / 05.03.02
His shit is beginning to stink though. There's a pattern showing.

quote:Originally posted by Ierne:

I do care about the Magick forum, however, and I do care about folks that come here looking for information and some sort of guidance on their path. People that are just starting out with Magick - any type of Magick - will have difficulty discerning people who really know what they're talking about and people who just [b]sound like they know what they're talking about. This has far more to do with lack of experience than lack of intelligence on the part of the novice.

I wouldn't call myself an "expert" in the Magickal field, but Magick's been an integral part of my life for over 15 years and I know a bullshitter when I see one. modthree is one, and if you've actually gone through hir "doors" and reached this point, folks, you've probably come to a similar conclusion.

and
over in the lab
quote:Lurid Archive wrote
As to modthree's many references to mathematics and dimensions, this seems like a bullying tactic to me. I can't see the purpose of this except to intimidate the reader behind a bunch of terminology that they are unfamiliar with. Modthree then seems to try to offer an interpretation that the reader is unlikely to be able to understand, never mind argue with. He uses these ideas as a barrier to communication and to be honest this use of knowledge offends me. Knowledge is meant to enrich and should be shared in comradeship. It should not be used to browbeat others in a flurry of terminology that is dished out as incomprehensible mantra. I can say this because I do understand his links.

People in the know think he's full of shit.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
05:35 / 05.03.02
Oh my, the name-calling is getting out of hand. It upsets me that Modthree is getting singled out as a "bullshitter".

I absolutely blow at math and I could understand dizZy. Of course it took me a while, as I had to read all 46 pages for the whole effect to register. The linguistic tool of the Z set appears to be an attempt to use language to evoke the mindset necessary to see beyond the duality that our language so loves.

All the hostility comes down to Lothar and Irene not understanding how Modthree meant "High and Low dichotomy" (not their fault) and Mod not figuring out what they didn't understand or why it upset them (not his fault). Then of course it escalated over the course of that and this thread.

To my mind Irene was kind of rude to the readers of dizZy. If the thread, which did have a point, didn't resonate with her she should have left it alone rather than tell us that were enjoying it that it and modthree were wasting her time. No one should have been called a "troll" my fellow bridge dwellers consider that a derogatory usage. Modthree did choose the wrong time to try and be silly (eg: Lothar should buy a vcr?)

All in all dizZy was an interesting if challenging thread. I for one had not seen any High/Low debate before being that I am relatively new here.

Everyone should calm down, including me.

<tentative> mangoes...? </tentative>
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:58 / 05.03.02
Oh, bloody hell, are you lot still at it? See if I ever start another kiss-and-make-up thread.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
15:52 / 05.03.02
quote:Originally posted by fenris23:


All the hostility comes down to Lothar and Irene not understanding how Modthree meant "High and Low dichotomy" (not their fault) and Mod not figuring out what they didn't understand or why it upset them (not his fault). Then of course it escalated over the course of that and this thread.

I know I'm going to be sorry for posting again. Maybe this'll be the last of it for me. I just think that Ierne is being hung out to dry to some degree. As it is, I'm finding it more productive to keep my frustration in this thread and to just ignore the other 'modthreads' as not to ruin the game for others.

The frustration came because in the very first DizZy post Modthree linked to a thread using the term 'High/Low booby trap' which is a direct quote from a post made by Ierne. That thread details out very clearly how Ierne and others have used the terms over past discussions/arguments.

Since he used that thread as one of his major starting points (again linked to as background reading in the very first post) and continued to use the term as quoted from Ierne's post throughout the thread, one would think that he knew exactly how some of us (Ierne especially) would understand his usage.

I gave him the benefit of the doubt by stating exactly why we reacted as we did and attributed it to an innocent miscommunication but he never once said anything along the lines of "Oh. I understand why you would misinterpret that. I didn't mean it that way and I'm sorry if there was a miscommunication." Instead he either ignored it or chose to be 'silly'.

Because Modthree is undeniably clever and intelligent, I can't help but come to the conclusion that he knows exactly what responses he's provoking and chooses not to address them in such a way as to clear up those provocations.

In this I agree with Lurid Archive when s/he says
"Modthree then seems to try to offer an interpretation that the reader is unlikely to be able to understand, never mind argue with. He uses these ideas as a barrier to communication and to be honest this use of knowledge offends me."

Yes, I admit that I'm wound up over all this also and that's why I'm not posting in any of the other threads. Hopefully I'll be able to pull out of this one too.
 
 
Ierne
17:00 / 05.03.02
No one should have been called a "troll" my fellow bridge dwellers consider that a derogatory usage...I for one had not seen any High/Low debate before being that I am relatively new here. –fenris23

As Lothar mentions above, modthree linked to various threads which dealt extensively with the "High/Low debate".

I noticed a thread here in the Policy that deals with the subject of trolls; I've linked to it so that people new to this forum (and Barbelith in general) will understand what I mean when I use the terminology. It tends to focus on Andrew Calo /The Knowledge, but there are points made by Tom Coates (who owns and runs this bulletin board) that are pertinent to this particular situation:

"A troll is generally defined as an individual who gets their kicks starting fights or angling for arguments. Intention is the issue here, not normally what the arguments contain."

One can like or agree with modthree's ideas if one chooses; what I've been arguing against is his attitude and intent – the why, not necessarily the what.

"...these are often dressed up as challenging 'core assumpions'. However, in the vast majority of cases these core assumptions are the things that have been thought about MOST by members of a community - not least - and the community is actually normally trying to talk about something else..."

See Lothar's post above.

"a good argument requires at least two participants to treat each other with respect, listen to each other's opinions, concede when they're wrong, not gloat when they are right, and treat the exercise as an attempt to refine one's own ideas."

modthree has consistently refused to give Lothar or myself that respect, despite our repeated requests for clarification. His vicious attack towards me in this thread (which he has extensively edited – guess he isn't the sort to stand by his statements!) replete with epithets such as "bitch", "stupid", "girlyboy" and "Princess Hot Shit of the Magick Forum", suggests that he's more interested in (to quote Tom again) "cheap rhetoric, obvious button-pushing and aggressively presented, but essentially shallow argument."

When modthree states in the uncool stuff that you've done with magick thread that:

Now the reason that I might sometimes seem to obscure things or make them appear unclear is because that is my way.

he uses practically the same argument that The Knowledge uses over in the Policy:
Be as funny and as outlandish as you want, and if they have a problem with you, it’s their problem, not yours, and they’ve no right to expect you to argue from where you’re coming from because they are unable to comprehend your way.

To which Tom replies:

"In my opinion what you're advocating above isn't communication of any kind, it's a complete arrogance of 'I am right and you couldn't understand me' and I think it's completely against the spirit of Barbelith."

And it's Tom's board, folks. He should know what he's talking about.
 
 
Ground Zero
18:12 / 05.03.02
Hey...

er, what's going on?
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
01:06 / 06.03.02
Lothar and Irene, Your posts in dizZy about your perspective on high/low did explain to me where you were coming from. Before the hostilities overwhelmed yours were some of the most insightful on the thread.

My argument is specifically that it is unfair to dismiss Mod3 as a troll or as full of shit. His items were well thought out and did not merely exist "for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion." He was having a discussion and many people were discussing it with him, I merely lurked. He even reduced the use of Z in later posts. He did not respond to the High/Low stuff but that seemed to be secondary to his goal with the thread.

His dealing with you (Irene and Lothar) was not tactfull but for the most part it was not intentionally mean either. Posts in this thread on the other hand have all been more angry from all sides.

I'm happy that you even bothered to read my post. I think if people back off the namecalling and just forget this stuff and move on everything will be fine.
 
  

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