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Let's all rally round the flag...

 
 
sleazenation
08:18 / 06.02.06
This thread sort of has its roots in this thread on the Danish cartoons that kicked off global demonstrations and anger.

During the course of that topic Mistoffelees stated that he found the burning of flags as something akin to declaring war on an entire country by an individual, the implication being that flag burning was somehow 'worse' than some blasphemous cartoons.

Further, to quote hir slightly out of context, Legba Rex said No-one's saying the flag-burning is a Good Thing; what we're saying is that the people doing it are not 100% (or even 50% in my opiniion) to blame for it. How far do people think that burning of a national flag should be the ultimate taboo?

So what do people think about flags, what do they think they reprisent and what do people think about flag burning itself...
 
 
BlueMeanie
12:49 / 06.02.06
Personally, I have no emotional reaction to the idea of someone burning my country's* flag at all, other than a mild "daft sods, don't they have anything better to do?".

In my mind it's only a symbol on a piece of (usually quite flammable) cloth. I don't really care about that, although I am genuinely very fond of my country of birth.

(*ie the English or UK flag.)
 
 
Quantum
13:36 / 06.02.06
It does seem to be a more American preoccupation IMHO, I don't much care about flag burning. It's just the opposite of flag-waving, which also leaves me with a mild and waning disinterest.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:52 / 06.02.06
I'd like to clarify that while I mentioned flag burning as not neccesarily a Good Thing, that's not to say it's an inherently, naturally Bad Thing or that I beleive it is or should be a taboo.

I don't value "my" flag (the British one). When I see it being burned, it doesn't worry or scare me, it just tells me that some people are angry with Britain for something (they may be unfounded in this anger or they may have very good reason to be angry, but they are angry none the less).

There are various reasons why I don't really value the flag of "my nation". One of these is that I don't particularly value nationhood, nationality or nationalist politics.
As a signifier I think the flag is so laden with implicit associations that to leave it uninterrogated is unexcusable. I'm all for accepting my part in some form of "bigger system", and to an extent a flag symbolises this, but only up to a certain rigidly defined point: that of "the nation". Why can't one celebrate, say, one's role as part of the ecosystem? Or the great family of mankind? Or planet Earth's place in the solar system, and so on, all of which tend to kick the petty notion of belonging to "a nation" into perspective.

(I make an exception for those who are victimised and wish to rally round a strength object- presumably this is how all flags started out- but I think that once the victimised start to gain power they should think about abandoning such symbols, otherwise the victim-against-the-world status gets carried over and mapped, falsely, onto a now dominant people- the American flag that seems to fly in every street there, for example, appears vulgar to most outside observers for this reason.)

However, because so many people do seem to value the flag of their country, to the point where they see that flag as an extension of themselves, I think that flag burning is rarely constructive, if one is trying to illustrate a power imbalance. It tends to cement reactionary positions within the dominant party, loses possible sympathisers therein, and close up the lines of dialogue very quickly. The sad fact is, though, that often, the victims of these power imbalances find that burning a flag is the only way they have of getting their voices heard- this is something that Europeans must remember when looking at the events unfolding in the middle east.

Linked to this is the notion of how much the flag burner values the flag. In the current context, it was pointed out to me by a Muslim commentator that the average person in, for example Syria, considers him or her self more "Muslim" than "Syrian"- and so national identity, and the flag, is less important to them than religious identity.

Which shows us two things- contrary to seemingly popular beleif, an offensive representation of Mohammed is equally offensive that to a Muslim as a burning flag to a Dane, and that in burning Denmark's flag, they are not burning the same thing that the Danes are flying.
 
 
BlueMeanie
13:53 / 06.02.06
It does seem to be a more American preoccupation IMHO

Well, they do have to salute the thing and recite stuff in front of it every morning when they're kids. That's bound to have some kind of effect...
 
 
BlueMeanie
13:57 / 06.02.06
However, because so many people do seem to value the flag of their country, to the point where they see that flag as an extension of themselves, I think that flag burning is rarely constructive, if one is trying to illustrate a power imbalance.

It's a very juvenile and primitively emotional action, I think. It's designed to provoke, and is about the same level as insulting another person's mother. And about as constructive.
 
 
alas
14:10 / 06.02.06
I'm pretty much with Dr. A on this one. In the US this issue has arisen periodically during the last several years, when conservative groups and/or politicians have taken steps to make flag-burning illegal (usually as a symbolic act of uber-patriotic grandstanding, in my opinion). During those efforts the word "desecration" almost inevitably gets used by the promoters of such laws--meaning 'blasphemous behavior; the act of depriving something of its sacred character; "desecration of the Holy Sabbath,"' in the language of Princeon University's WordNet.

The supporters of bans on flag burning use this term because burning is also one of the accepted methods by which to honorably dispose of a flag, and they are trying to separate the "foul" act of publicly burning a flag (to denote disgust with our nation and its policies), and the elderly VFW member ceremoniously burning his worn out flag in his backyard barbeque.

But, in a nation that purports to maintain a separation of church and state, this kind of language would seem, to many of us, to impose a kind of civil religion on citizens. That's also a reason for some of the resistance to saying the "Pledge of Allegiance," which many (if not most) public schools in this country require/ask all students to do each morning.

Not only does the Pledge itself contain the words "One nation, under God" (which I think we've discussed before, in the Switchboard?, as it has been the more recent uber-patriotic flashpoint issue) but the act of saying the pledge requires students to place right hands on hearts and--to some folks' way of seeing things--"worship" the flag by pledging one's allegiance to it. Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, typically refuse to participate in this exercise, seeing it as idolotrous. (My own children refused to participate, seeing it as coercive and annoying.)

So for me the equation of flag burning by private citizens of my country or any other country as tantamount to a declaration of war seems to fall into the conservative line of thinking that I've just described.

When people have burnt the US flag--as citizens and non-citizens alike have done with some regularity at least since the Vietnam War--they generally seem to be in a position of feeling that they have little or no ability to influence the government's actions. They often have felt deeply, intimately, personally harmed by that government--Vietnam protestors had lost friends and relatives in battle, people in the middle east see our nation as having a deeply problematic foreign policy.

Some, perhaps a minority, may feel that the current actions actually betray the values and ideals equality and democracy that the flag and the nation are supposed to represent. Burning the flag can be a way of saying: "this current administration does not deserve this flag."

Calling that kind of action inherently a declaration of war against the US, to my way of thinking, is inaccurate, especially as our democracy has been so undermined by the financing of elections that many citizens feel they have no voice. I don't think it's a great idea in many, perhaps most circumstances: sort of like calling the government "fascist," or making comparisons to Hitler, it is a dramatic gesture that can quickly lose its power through widespread, sloppy application.

In the case of a German flag being burnt by protestors in the Middle East, well, it may be that that is different. I do not know for sure what precise message is being sent by the protestors in that case, but I suspect it does have less to do with Germany itself than with Germany as representative of the decadent, secular West. I still would be loathe to see it as a declaration of war, so much as an act of defiance and a dramatic expression of a deeply felt rejection of Western values as seen from a very particular point of view.
 
 
alas
14:17 / 06.02.06
(Not just "Western values" but Western hegemony, more precisely).
 
 
BlueMeanie
14:43 / 06.02.06
It's worth noting that in the US Jehovah's Witnesses have frequently got in trouble for refusing to pledge allegiance to the flag, since they view it as bordering on idolatry.

It does smack of worship, and I do think that in the minds of some Americans the US is seen as holy - such as in the idea of Manifest Destiny.
 
 
Quantum
14:54 / 07.02.06
Well, they do have to salute the thing and recite stuff in front of it every morning when they're kids.

OMG still? Surely not, I thought that wasn't since the 60s or 70s. I suppose we had to sing Hymns in primary school which is comparable, but really, pledging allegiance to the State every morning? How twisted.
 
 
BlueMeanie
17:31 / 07.02.06
It's still done, apparently.

Here's how they used to do it. Rather unfortunate, I think:

 
 
Golias
23:21 / 16.02.06
Could flag burning then be considered a rascist action? If I burn an american flag am I insulting the American people or the government?
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As a side note, Jehovahs Witness' did not participate in saying the lords prayer in UK primary schools(when they used to do it).
I know because I used to leave the classroom for a few minutes each morning...just so I wouldn't 'turn' the other kids to my evil cult : )
 
 
Dr. Tom
23:34 / 16.02.06
The one time a flag should always be burned is when a politician has wrapped him/her-self in it.

In America, flag burning comes up as an issue whenever something really nasty needs a diversionary smoke screen.

Every Time.

Flag burnning gets everyones attention, but has no actual impact or meaning.

If someone is burning your flag in a free country, you show your support by waiving your flag higher. Just that simple.

There are circumstances where flag-burning is a patrioic act in a free country.

Just Speaking my mind as a former USAF Major. I know for a fact politicians are not to be trusted.
 
 
Dr. Tom
23:42 / 16.02.06
Being new here, I don't know if anyone has linked to this fantastic 1946 Educational Film on Despotism.The caliber of the people here makes me believe that at least a couple will wathch this 11 minute analysis and piece of history from Encyclopedia Britannica and a Yale Scholar.

Note also that in 1946, the US "Pledge of Allegiance" did not include the words, "Under God."
 
 
Bubblegum Death
01:01 / 17.02.06
I know people who think that burning the flag is an act of treason. They'll mention all the people who have died for the flag. Well, a piece of cloth is a pretty damn silly thing to lose your life over. What makes them angry is the symbology. To these people, the flag represents ideals like: freedom, liberty, Manifest Destiny, all that jazz. What they fail to realize is that symbols mean different things to different people. For some, the stars and stripes represent racism, oppression, capitalism.
 
 
Dr. Tom
01:42 / 19.02.06
A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon.
-Napoleon Bonaparte
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:03 / 19.02.06
Dr.T: But what relation does that have to the flag? A decoration is precisely individual - a hundred may be givenb out each day, but each is given to a single soldier for a specific action. It's almost the opposit of the flag, in that respect, although arguably the sense of nation underlies both...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:43 / 19.02.06
So, to back up a little:

To these people, the flag represents ideals like: freedom, liberty, Manifest Destiny, all that jazz. What they fail to realize is that symbols mean different things to different people. For some, the stars and stripes represent racism, oppression, capitalism.

This is no doubt perfectly true, so far as it goes, but how far does it actually go? My first question on this would be how much it actually means to those who see a flag as a symbol of (a) that others see it as a symbol of (b). I don't think people generally fail to realise it at all - they simply decline to sccept the validity of that reading of the symbol. Put another way, we might compare and contrast the notional desecration of the Prophet Mohammed. Both of them are philosophical representations of a series of values, but those values are subject to critique and, because the values cannot be parsed out - you cannot separate out Islam's position on women, for example, or the US policy on Iraq. So, we get back to the idea that the burning of a flag, or the defacement of a flag generally, is a broad-spectrum act - in fact, an act that you almost always lose semilogical control over, because it not only allows but forces the witness to make their judgement on the payload of the object being burned based on their own perception of that object.

The status of the flag as an object is quite interesting as well - because it functions as a handy shorthand for the country, the values of a country and citizens of a country. But it is not an exact shorthand, just a convenient one - it is easily identifiable on international television, in a way that, for example, a slogan is not. In part, this means that a US citizen burning a US flag is a different communication from a Palestinian, say, burning the exact same flag, as alas noted.

On a tangent, I find the creation of flags to be burnt an interesting industry. The Danish flags being burned in the Middle East recently had obviously been produced in a rush, purely in order to get something burnable in time for the six o'clock riots. So, you have the rapid creation and the rapud destruction of an object which until very shortly before had had no real meaning to the person creating it or the person destroying it. It's grimly amusing that many of the flags being burned in recent weeks have in fact been the flag of the largely blameless French province of Savoy.
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
19:53 / 19.02.06
As an aside John Scalzi the writer has an interesting riposte to a proposed anti-flagburning amendment to the constitution, his point being, unless it's an up to date, correct Pantone coloured flag, burning it wouldn't be illegal with the wording of the bill - but that doesn't mean you won't get your ass kicked by some tow-headed farmboys who think they see you burning Old Glory.
 
  
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