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Is Australia racist?

 
  

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Olulabelle
21:36 / 03.02.06
Further to a post I made in Games and Gameplay regarding a comment made by someone else that 'it's not racist in Australia' I've been asked to clarify the reasons why I consider Australia to be notoriously racist. It's also been suggested that I do this with very careful wording. I'm not entirely sure what that means, but I hope this post is adheres to that advice.

Firstly I should apologise for not writing "'in my experience' Australia is notoriously racist". I didn't because I was under the impression that this was a widely held view. It certainly is amongst the people I know with direct experience of the country.

My main reasons for thinking this are as follows:

1/ My cousin lives in Australia, and moved there from New Zealand. He's a tradesman and has encountered racism on many levels which include onsite abuse of people who are not white and being selected for jobs over non-white people who applied with him, despite them having more experience.

2/ Whilst in Sydney I had a long conversation about Australian racism with a friend called Evan McHugh, a freelance journalist who, at the time wrote regularly for 'The Australian' newspaper. He wrote a book about Australia with my father (Evan wrote the copy and my father took the pictures) and he also contributed to the Australian State of the Environment Report in 2001.

As such I think he's fairly qualified to comment sensibly on racism in Australia and he was of the opinion that racism is rife there.

3/ My friend lived in Sydney for a year and encountered racism to an extent which astonished her during her time there.

4/ When I was in Australia I was suprised at the lack of non-white faces on television, and I noticed that a huge percentage of the homeless people I saw on the streets were non-white and most of those were indiginous Australians.

I realise that the reasons above are based on opinion, but they are at least opinions based on actual experience.

5/ Other than that, there is the most obvious issue of the stolen generations; removal of mixed race (white and indiginous Australian) children from their parents until as recently as (some reports say)1970.

6/ Then there's the incident of a boatload of 400 refugees being turned away from the country.

7/ There is the Thomas Hickey death and related rioting.

8/ And there are the Cronulla race riots.

I don't appear to be alone in thinking this. Google 'racism in Australia', or even, if you like, 'Australia notoriously racist' and you'll find link after link after link.

Maybe this is not the case and I'm wrong. I'd certainly like to be, but up till now have had no reason to think otherwise. In almost every instance when racism in Australia has come up in my life, either in personal conversation, within the media, or in direct experience, Australia has appeared to be a inherently racist country.

So I hope these will serve as valid reasons for feeling justified in making the comment that 'Australia is notoriously racist.' These are my reasons for thinking what I do and I have no counter experience thus far. Feel free to provide me with this.

Finally, may this be a lesson to all of you to write, 'in my experience, or 'personally I think that' instead of stating opinion as fact...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:07 / 03.02.06
I think one issue here is that you went on to say that what seems normal in Australia would, by contrast, be considered spectacularly racist in countries like the UK. This strikes me as a bit of a hostage to fortune - last time I looked, for example, quite a lot of economically disadvantaged people in Britain were also not white. So, we have a) Australia is notoriously racist and b) this notoriety is based on Australia being racist in a way that other countries are not, before we get on to c) what "country x is notoriously racist actually means anyway.
 
 
Olulabelle
23:23 / 03.02.06
Okay...

But I was originally asked to state my reasons for why I thought Australia was racist. Which I have.

According to Reuters (cached page I am afraid) a poll in Australia found that "Three-quarters of Australians believe their country is racist and nearly 60 percent believe racial violence at beaches in Sydney has damaged the country's international reputation, an opinion poll showed on Tuesday.

Three quarters is more than the 51% of British people who think that Britian is a racist society, as per the BBC online poll, admittedly from 2002, but still relevant I think.

Equally relevant is that Australians feel their country's international reputation is damaged with regard to racism. If Australians themselves think that, then my perception of Australia as a racist society makes more sense, don't you think? That's not to say it's right, just that it makes sense.
 
 
Olulabelle
23:29 / 03.02.06
And also, I think that if you asked anyone whether the work 'P**i'* was spectacularly racist in the UK, they would agree that it was. In this country it is used as an insult.

Even if you asked someone who actually used the word in this country they would agree it was an insult, but that doesn't necessarily seem to be the case in Australia.

*Mods - I've starred that word for Google. Is that the accepted thing to do?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
23:30 / 03.02.06
I hear you, Lula, and I find this interesting. I draughted a reply but it bulged into somethingm ore headshopp-y so I'm going to put it there as a thread instead.
 
 
Spaniel
06:25 / 04.02.06
I have to rush, so not much of a post ahead, I'm afraid...

In the past I've expressed similar sentiments to Lula, because I have been shocked, appalled and surprised on many, many occasions by the racist comments I've heard coming out of Australian mouths.
These days, however, I'm inclined to believe that the UK is in fact spectacularly racist, it's just that racism is more suppressed/camoflaged here.

It's very hard to measure racism, eh? Should we use a ruler?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:03 / 04.02.06
Well, this is my problem also. Every time I think of an example of racism in Australia, I think of an example of racism in the UK, or in the US. This is, after all, the week in which Nick Griffin was acquitted in the UK, and there have been riots in the north of England sparked by disputes between racial groups, and so on. I think it's difficult to say what constitutes inherent racism; "notoriously racist" is safeer ground, because it's about what other people think about it- like "the US is a notoriously aggressive country", say.


Even if you asked someone who actually used the word in this country they would agree it was an insult, but that doesn't necessarily seem to be the case in Australia.


Not necessarily. We've had people on Barbelith who did not believe that there was anything other than description involved in the use of the term, although I think that's an unusual opinion.
 
 
Tabitha Tickletooth
10:33 / 04.02.06
My problem with this is that I come from Australia and the way I read this, you've just labelled me racist. It's worded in such a Daily Mail-esque fashion. Is Britain racist? If that hasn't actually been a headline, it will be at some point. I'm Australian, I live in London and have for some years, and I'm not a racist.

If you were asserting that there is a disturbingly high level of racism in Australia, I'd agree. If you were suggesting that racist speech is too infrequently challenged by people in Australia I'd be completely on your side.

But you're not. You've lumped everyone and everything in a country together and defined the whole homogenous entity as racist. Which strikes me as, gee, a bit racist. Labelling an entire nation of people, based on where they come from. Making assumptions and generalisations about them.

I realise this may be shocking, but as an Australian living in the UK, this shining beacon of tolerance where the attitudes of all Australians can be identified as instantly offensive simply by the accent, I've witnessed incidents of racist behaviour. One evening this week in my local pub, some guy I started chatting to in passing, ended up using the word you've referred to above in a conversation in which he was arguing that he wasn't a racist. And it wasn't in the context of 'I find the word x racist'. It was in passing. I've had drunken Englishmen sing Ball and Chain at me on a Tube platform - I'm sure you're familiar with the song: if you've spent time in Australia you are almost bound to have heard Englishmen singing it in a pub in Sydney somewhere.

I've even become acquainted with some seeming instances of historical injustices against other races perpetrated by British regimes.

But here's the thing - based on my experiences and my understanding, I'm prepared to argue that there is racism in Britain. I'd say there is a greater prevalence of racism in Australia than in Britain and that in Australia racism is not challenged often or strongly enough. I have seen deplorable behaviour by Australians in the UK and I can see why people would be offended by them as racists. I have seen similar behaviour by Britons in Australia and can see why people would be offended by them as racists.

What I am not doing is saying that Britain is racist - the whole bally lot of you. All the ones I've met, even the ones I have not. Not that I need to because you're all exactly alike.

l'm sorry that this has turned into a bit of a rant but I actually find it quite upseting. I'm sorry that so many Australians are racist and I really wish they fucking weren't. I know lots of Australians, both in the country and abroad, who are working really hard to change that and to find ways of addressing these problems. I'm sick of people in Britain assuming that everyone from Australia is racist because they have met too many who are. I don't believe it would be reasonable to make such an assumption about another characteristic of another whole nation of people.

It's good that, as an Australian, you don't need to get to know me to know what I'm like.
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
11:33 / 04.02.06
My problem with this is that I come from Australia and the way I read this, you've just labelled me racist. It's worded in such a Daily Mail-esque fashion. Is Britain racist? If that hasn't actually been a headline, it will be at some point. I'm Australian, I live in London and have for some years, and I'm not a racist.

If you were asserting that there is a disturbingly high level of racism in Australia, I'd agree. If you were suggesting that racist speech is too infrequently challenged by people in Australia I'd be completely on your side.

But you're not. You've lumped everyone and everything in a country together and defined the whole homogenous entity as racist. Which strikes me as, gee, a bit racist. Labelling an entire nation of people, based on where they come from. Making assumptions and generalisations about them.


I'd read that entirely differently then how you have. I do think there's a real difference between labelling a country as an entity as racist, and saying that countries inhabitants are all racists, which is how you seem to have read it. I don't see anything in what Lula's said that suggests that she thinks that Australians are racist as a whole.

In the same way, I think it's entirely reasonable to make the statement that "Britain is xenophobic". I don't think it's true of everybody. And I don't take it as a reference to me. But, as an entity, I think it undoubtedly is.

I'm also aware that I'm slightly confused on this whole issue, and tend to use Britain to mean different things depending on what I'm saying. If I talk about being proud of Britain, I'm talking about the Ranters, The Chartists, Anti Fascist Action and other parts of our history I feel proud of. If I talk about hating Britain, I'm talking about the fact we're a murdering ex colonial power who's history is drenched in blood and the whole Daily Mail Little Englander attitude.

And I'm really not sure that's it's contradictory to do so. By their very nature, I think that nations are very complicated things.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
12:57 / 04.02.06
I don't think it's necessarily a stretch or a problem to say that Australia is an extremely racist country. {erhaps the UK is, too, but I'm more interested in why people might have a problem with owning up to the racism that happens in Australia than comparisons. Speaking as someone who's lived here pretty much all my life, it is a really racist place. And getting more so by the day... Or perhaps people merely feel a licence to express feelings they'd previously kept to themselves, given the current political climate, etc.

Tabitha brings up an interesting point, which is the 'lumping together' of everyone here on the continent under that term, 'Australia'. For me, my problem is more with the name of 'Australia' or 'Australian' as something that might apply to everyone on the continent. Obviously not everyone living here is 'racist' -- but the people who are identified as more Australian than anyone else seem to have a tendency to be more racist. And gee whiz, they also happen to be mostly white! Australia as a nation is built on the construction of race as a differentiating and disenfranchising ideology for the purpose of annexing land and making money off it; and, later, importing cheap labour to work the land. So, for me, of course Australia is a racist country. It's a colonial state. How could it be otherwise?

I also read defensiveness about the equation of 'Australia' and 'racist' as a rather pernicious strategy of denial. What does it matter if only some people, rather than everyone, thinks non-white people are dumb/savage/uncivilised/stupid/terrorists, etc? Those people who think such things have power on their side...
 
 
Disco is My Class War
13:01 / 04.02.06
By the way, Tabitha, if you've lived in London for some years, maybe you don't know what it's really like? At the Big Day Out, last week (a big post-'alternative' rock festival) gangs of young men were roaming around, punching anyone who didn't kiss the Australian flag. It's pretty bad, and I think probably quite unimaginable if you're not here, watching it unfold.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:45 / 04.02.06
I also read defensiveness about the equation of 'Australia' and 'racist' as a rather pernicious strategy of denial. What does it matter if only some people, rather than everyone, thinks non-white people are dumb/savage/uncivilised/stupid/terrorists, etc? Those people who think such things have power on their side...

This may be the wrong place for my response, but I think it *does* matter to an extent. Its not that I don't think denial doesn't take place, or that rhetoric in support of power isn't commonplace and needs to be challenged, but I'm not happy about framing debates in those terms. Largely because I think that it is a foundation I can't really get behind, but also because I think it can tactically be a mistake. The idea that one shifts emphasis from defending rights to attacking entrenched power with some blanket generalisations - reserving complex analysis for the things we want to defend - seems unwise.

I'm thinking, in particular, of the way the right in the US has adopted some of this language about entrenched liberal power to essentially invert rights debates. This is behind the deployment of PC as a concept, attacks on the "liberal" media and Horowitz bill on "academic freedom". Once you aren't too bothered about easy generalisations supported by particular examples, its hard to object to someone else doing the same from a different point of view and still sound credible.
 
 
Loomis
16:07 / 04.02.06
Haus’s first post basically covers my problems with this thread, and Lula I think your post is either extremely disingenuous or you’ve totally missed the point.

As an Australian, I’m the first to rage about the huge problems with racism in Australia, at both the individual and the institutional level. To be honest, I’m insulted that you would presume to lecture me or any other Australian on the board about the problems there. I’m well aware of the things you linked to in your post and I can assure you that I don’t need you to point them out to me. I believe I have posted about my anger at the many problems in Australia and I can rant at length without reference to your links.

My annoyance with this thread is that “Is Australia racist” isn’t even a discussion. I’d be surprised if any Australian on this board would disagree that there are big problems with racism there, and it reads to me as though you’re attempting to sidestep the point of what I was getting at in the other thread, which is to take issue with this remark:

Australia is a notoriously racist country ... Therefore what is considered as not being racist there is probably considered horribly racist in a lot of other places, including Britain.

Barbelith can sometimes feel rather britocentric and I was and still am extremely pissed off over your assumption that a racist word that your country coined should have the same currency in every other country. The empire’s finished, you know. This notion that “Australians say that the word isn’t considered racist there because they’re a racist country” is ridiculous. Haven’t you ever heard the idea that Eskimos have lots of words for snow (which may or may not be an urban myth, but it serves my point)? Australia has plenty of racist terms for its indigenous inhabitants and for the nationalities and races that have migrated in numbers to Australia. But those races and nationalities are not the same ones that came in numbers to Britain, therefore some words that are offensive in Britain aren't used there (or at least, weren't when I was there). I don’t see what’s so hard to understand about that. Again, as I said in the other thread, that doesn’t make it ok to use it on Barbelith and indeed I wouldn’t use it anywhere knowing what I know now, but your assumption that Australians are racist because they aren’t all aware of how the racist terminology that your country uses is employed, is just plain wrong.

In this thread, you’re implying that all you said in the cricket thread was that Australia was racist and now you’re backing that up. But we can see from the quote above that that is a misrepresentation. The inescapable implication in your statement was that Australia is more racist than the UK, and, as someone who spent the first 25 years of their life in Oz and almost five years now in the UK, I can tell you that they’re pretty equal. I don’t think any Australian is going to argue that there is not plenty of racism there, but, as Haus notes, all the things you point out about Australia happen here too, from the BNP to David Blunkett to the problems with poverty faced by black Britons.

Three quarters is more than the 51% of British people who think that Britian is a racist society, as per the BBC online poll, admittedly from 2002, but still relevant I think.

Equally relevant is that Australians feel their country's international reputation is damaged with regard to racism. If Australians themselves think that, then my perception of Australia as a racist society makes more sense, don't you think?


I think you’ve read this backwards. The fact that more Australians are aware of the racism in their country than Britons are in theirs is, if anything, a step in the right direction. Not that that means things are improving; as Mister Disco says, things are getting worse rather than better, but then I’d probably say that about most countries these days.
 
 
astrojax69
19:02 / 04.02.06
another angle to pursue on this topic is that australia has one of the highest incidence of numbers of nationalities living as permanent residents, and often citizens. It is very multicultural and offers its inhabitants exposure to the many and varied cultures of the world.

now, the australians who are being labelled racist as a default position are presumably the white, anglo descendants of the british colonialists who expelled the scum of their own society (or was that underpriveleged who, in their world, resorted to actions that lead to deportation, like steal food when they otherwise had none?). the british emperialist culture has fomented these generations of 'racists' when confronted with the very liberal and tolerant policies 'australia' has developed since 1945 in allowing peoples from any and every part of the globe to settle as its people.

australia is asserted as being racist 'cause we have a number of outspoken xenophobes. is japan racist? how multicultural is their society? the philippines? togo? pick a country with little or no history of immigration of any scale and ask is that country racist, on the basis of the assertion of this thread... most countries (especially outside europe, which has seen a massive migration influx from africa and asia) are monocultures and mostly, at base, not encouraging of foreigners. where's the love now? you don't get race riots in countries with only one race...

the policies of australia's government have been labelled racist, especially in relation to immigration; but in reality, the policies are not based on race at all, but are deliberately and self-consciously non-exclusive. sure, we have control over our borders and like any other country want to exercise some control over the entry of people - and we want to have some direction for the makeup of our society and how its members might contribute to the whole - but at many levels i think australia is a pretty liberal place, suffering the tragedy of humanity's seemingly innate intolerance of difference.

i predict that in fifty or a hundred years time it will be quite different - give the mix a few more generations and i believe you will see a marked improvement. as loomis points out, we have the degree of self reflection to assert that we are racist: which is probably a reasonable starting point to think that perhaps that, on the whole [and i use that phrase advisedly], we are probably no more racist than anywhere else, perhaps [controversially here, i suspect] less so...

history shows us that difference makes it hard for fellow humans to get along. how often have there not been wars somewhere around the globe? neighbours, close cultural folk, loathe each other. now consider, australia is a melting pot for all that: with serbs and croats living near each other; greeks and turks; pick your favourite squabble...

i can see why the prevalence of discussion and depth of emotional responses to incidents of [particularly violent] racist actions might make it seem to a casual observer that the whole country is riddled with racism, but the level of awareness of racism is also probably much higher here than in a monocultural society and we are growing a long term plan for a tolerant and culturally diverse society, which is only a good thing, no?

i made my apologies for my use of a term that was inappropriate and my initial use was simply unthinking, though, as i admit, entirely inexcusable in barbelith. i am australian and australia is, in toto, racist. that is an offensive assertion, though i take the issue and my post, i hope, goes some way to disentangling the causes of the [mis]perception of the country's failings.

and racism is an apalling fact. but, like assault, which can range from merely verbal abuse that puts the victim in some state of fear all the way to murder, a slip of usage of a word that, in the closeted world of my cultural existence isn't particularly hateful, angry of demeaning, is surely not qualitatively the same as the actions of the violent thugs (both anglo and lebanese) of the cronulla riots or the insidious racism of the likes of the one nation party and similar ideologies premised on race, or more correctly, on difference.

anyway, a bit of a rant on a topic i provoked. thanks lula for making this thread and calling stumps on this discussion in the cricket thread. i hope we can get some more insights into this issue from the wisdom of barbelith. i should hope we will allow a diversity of views and opinions!
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:30 / 05.02.06
I’m insulted that you would presume to lecture me or any other Australian on the board about the problems there. I’m well aware of the things you linked to in your post and I can assure you that I don’t need you to point them out to me

I think this is a bit vicious. Lula was asked to provide an explanation which she did and pretty much points out that it's her personal opinion in the last paragraph of the post that opens this thread up. That does not make her points inaccurate and if it's not inaccurate and she was asked to support her claims then where does the element of lecture enter into it? You partly agree with her so why are you so angry with her perception? It seems to me that you are approaching this issue in a specifically nationalistic way. That's rather evidenced by this delightful comment The empire’s finished, you know, which frankly I see no reason to employ.

I don't agree with the points about language use that you have made. Words like g******* are directly related to their history, slightly different within each specific country certainly but that some people use it to refer to white people with dreadlocks surely indicates that it is used in similar ways in Australia to its use in Britain. Racism isn't necessarily about insulting people, it's about a generalisation in terms of ethnic background and the reference to that type of hairstyle suggests a similar vein to someone with a large nose being referred to as Jewish. Am I wrong?

You are right that this country is racist and that it is inaccurate to suggest otherwise. Ian Blair's recent comments were quite perceptive and I too can find instances that map directly on to instances in Australia. I cannot judge whether racism is more rife in Australia as I have never been there, whether it is more prevalent in the immediate environment (say in a bar or in conversation) is something I'm interested in.

I am also interested in whether people feel that racism in Britain is increasing. I have not specifically noted it but I might be sheltered from that kind of response. I don't think it's falling although I think some of our institutions have cleaned up a bit in the last 15 or so years. I suppose this isn't really the thread for that though.
 
 
Tabitha Tickletooth
08:57 / 05.02.06
Calmer now. There is a very high prevalence of racism in Australia. I am really really not denying that or attempting to diminish the seriousness of that. In addition to those being racist in their behaviour and their language, and making matters much much worse, is the shocking acceptance of racism. I think those with some experience of Australia - it probably only takes a visit to see it - will have seen evidence of this widespread belief that there is some kind of 'low level' racism that isn't that dangerous/offensive/problematic.

As Loomis has pointed out, I'd also be very surprised if many Australians - even the racist ones - would deny that there is a lot of racism in Australia. In a way, that's one of the most horrifying, frustrating, demoralising things - I honestly think that a lot of Australians would either agree about the high prevalence of racist attitudes or even acknowledge their own racist behaviour but not think this a particularly big problem.

Unfortunately, I think the 'Australia, you're all just a pack of racists' thing rather plays into the hands of these people. It certainly undermines the work of those attempting to raise racism as an issue in the country and to force people to examine what racism is and the real evil that it does. Kind of a combination Millwall nobody likes us attitude with a knowing 'but they all still want to come here, so maybe we're right eh?' wink. Fuck me - the number of people in Briitain who've told me that 'Australia's certainly got it right on immigration'.

I believe that many of the policies of the current administration, and in particular John Howard himself, are racist. Again, this lends legitimacy to the very attitudes people are working to change.

MD - By the way, Tabitha, if you've lived in London for some years, maybe you don't know what it's really like? At the Big Day Out, last week (a big post-'alternative' rock festival) gangs of young men were roaming around, punching anyone who didn't kiss the Australian flag. It's pretty bad, and I think probably quite unimaginable if you're not here, watching it unfold.

Sadly, I think there is some truth in this, MD. What you describe is certainly not anything I have ever experienced. I think I mentioned in the thread about the race riots in Sydney how shocked I was - there certainly does seem to have been an escalation of open racism and violence since I was last living in the city in 2000. That being said, I do try to get home every two years - and my parents now live in Townsville (far north Qld for those not familiar) which is, and always has been, something of a heartland of the worst kind of racism. So I think you are right that I haven't personally experienced the worsening situation in some of the cities, I do sadly know the nature of the problem.
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
12:08 / 05.02.06
Unfortunately, I think the 'Australia, you're all just a pack of racists' thing rather plays into the hands of these people.

Where has that been said though? I see the claim that Australia is a notoriously racist country. But I don't see any claims that Australians are all racists.
 
 
alas
14:41 / 05.02.06
Understatement of the day: racism is a complex problem. Like some of the posters here, I know that my country, the US, has been shaped by racism at every level. I have lived here my entire life, and so my entire life has been deeply shaped by those racist policies and practices: where and how I live, who my neighbors have been and have not been, who I attended school with have all been, and continue to be shaped by race. Racism is in the air I breathe, and it is in me.

I, too, work very hard not to be bigoted in my behavior, but I know that my whole way of looking at the world has been shaped by racism. I am not "racism" irreducibly, on some personal level, but it's thoroughly intertwined with who I am. I benefit from racism everyday, and am not willing to give up those benefits.

So am I "a racist"? Hmm. It doesn't feel like the most accurate or the most useful term in this context, if our goal is to work for more just society. Like Lurid, I like precision in terminology. I am not overtly bigoted, but I benefit from white privilege. Is my country racist? Yes.

So I'd like to underscore that racism is often only more visible in certain places and times, not necessarily more prevalent. Violence surrounding racism often arises in a visible way when it is being challenged, when racial minorities feel empowered to start talking back. And it seems absolutely true to me that that violence IS alive in countries that have deliberately kept themselves mono-ethnic, it's just not visible. It is a violent act to maintain racial/ethnic purity in that way, it's just not very visible violence.
 
 
alas
14:47 / 05.02.06
(Re: the term "racial minorities" I should have put scare quotes around that for all kinds of reasons: race is a dubious metaphysical category with little or no tangible "biological" reality, but with a real social reality and consequence. And, of course, "minorities" is also problematic--it would be more accurate to speak of dominant/subordinant groups based on perceived ethnicity.)
 
 
Loomis
18:37 / 05.02.06
Nina, I’m really not a dinky di aussie who can’t bear to have his country criticised. I’m less nationalistic and more britophilic (if that’s a word) than most Australians. After all, I choose to make my home here. But as a Briton it may be hard for you to truly understand how annoying (and even insulting) it can be for an Australian (or a citizen of any ex British colony) for a British person to gloss over the complexities of your history and culture with a crass generalisation. The notion of Australians being so racist they don’t even know when they’re doing it is something that pops up occasionally on Barbelith. It’s possible that I’m being over-sensitive, but perhaps you could consider how you’d feel if someone insisted on interpreting the behaviour of people from your country through an assumption based on their opinion. Barbelith doesn’t generally rate posts (particularly on such a sensitive issue) too highly when they’re founded only on opinion.

Thanks to astrojax for pointing out the many successes of multiculturalism in Australia. In my haste to criticise the problems I see in my country it can be easy to overlook how successful immigration has been in so many ways. And as he points out, it can be easy to draw a conclusion from the racist things you see in the news rather than all the stuff that doesn’t get reported because it’s working. In fact I’d hazard a guess (although it’s just my opinion so take it with a grain of salt if you like) that a greater proportion of second generation Australians (of which I am one) feel at home there than do their British counterparts.

Racism isn't necessarily about insulting people, it's about a generalisation in terms of ethnic background

I totally agree that it is a racist stereotype that should not be propagated in any way, whether the intent is racist or not. What I was trying to get at in the other thread (which perhaps didn’t come across) was that a racist stereotype of a racial group that is not highly represented in Australia means that the racism out of which the doll was born seems as remote as grits and cornbread to most Australians, therefore the immediacy of the visceral racist reaction isn’t the same there. When one considers the way racism functions in Australia, a doll designed as a stereotype of African Americans just isn’t as relevant as racism towards people who actually live in the country.

Like I said, I wouldn’t use it at all, but my default position when an Australian uses it would be perhaps more forgiving to when someone from the US or UK uses it, because the latter have more experience with the visceral hatespeech connotations. I would see it more as a case of their needing to be educated in how harmful such stereotypes are.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
19:55 / 05.02.06
But Loomis my entire reference is based around a jam jar that most people under the age of 25 have never even seen. That doesn't mean I would find the term acceptable coming from people of that age. I take your point about relevance though, there are better battles to be fought on different cultural turf.

This I do understand-
as a Briton it may be hard for you to truly understand how annoying (and even insulting) it can be for an Australian (or a citizen of any ex British colony) for a British person to gloss over the complexities of your history and culture with a crass generalisation.

It's precisely how I respond to Rula Lenska's claims that she is a Polish Countess. As a Briton I may not understand it, as a second generation member of a minority culture I do.
 
 
babazuf
23:39 / 05.02.06
Australia, racist? Studies would suggest otherwise.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
02:33 / 06.02.06
Lurid, you're mischaracterising my post to argue that I'm just making gross generalisations. I was trying to point out the coterminous and embedded character of 'race' and 'nation' -- which isn't simple at all. I also said I'm less interested in whether Australia is or isn't 'racist' than the strategies of denial that people can use to minimise race stuff. In order to clarify my thinking on this: our PM, John Howard, and other politicians, have historically responded to the suggestion that they might be 'racist', or that Australia might be racist, by taking it as a personal affront. The stock response is, "How dare you accuse me of racism! How uncouth you are!" It's quite traditional in white Aust. culture to get quite huffy when someone suggests 'racism', as if the person perpetrating racism is actually the victim. This is not new -- it's old, and everywhere: I take it you have the same problem in the UK with the BNP. This means that I get quite antsy whenever someone doesn't just own up to the extreme racism/racialisation structuring Australia as a nation, historically, economically, militarily, culturally. Interpreting that question as something pertaining to individuals and individual thoughts, behaviours, practices, makes those structures of colonisation invisible. So I really feel it matters less that some, or many, or whatever number of individuals perpetrate racist/racialising practices. This was the point I was trying to make. This is also the precise point of the Michael Duffy article -- Duffy is a right-wing asshole (I know because I've talked to him on the phone). Once again, the right responds that the problem is about 'personal experience' (or its lack) of 'ethnic gangs' or whatever they'd like us to believe.

Can I suggest here that instead of talking about 'racism', people think about whether the term 'racialisation' might be more appropriate? By racialisation, I mean the differentiation and/or construction of a person as different, based on the idea of race: whether as 'biological', wherein biological differences are cited, or 'cultural race', wherein cultural differences are cited as the basis for differentiation.

This actually gets around the problem alas was talking about, which is that it's problematic to talk about racial minorities. This is because 'race' is constructed. It's historically and socially constructed, and differently thought depending on where you are and when. 'Racism' refers to discrimination and inequality or violence based on race. 'Racialisation' refers to the deployment of 'race' as a viable way to differentiate people at all: just as bad as 'racism' but once you grasp it, far easierto identify in a given practice or ideology. In a way, racialisation makes 'racism' possible, and it happens at a deeper structural level -- both inside 'us', as individuals, in our thinking, and in social structures.

What it means is that we can talk about the racialising strategies of a nation like 'Australia' and the racialising practices that are permitted/encouraged/forbidden here. So it's about practices, rather than a blanker statement which goes nowhere, than to say 'yes' or 'no'.

Am I explaining myself clearly, and do people agree? I should check the archives for a similar discussion, I'm sure it's happened at some point, but after writing that, I have no more time now.
 
 
quixote
03:04 / 11.02.06
I was born in Australia rather many years ago and lived there as a young child. I still remember my parents renting a room to a Sri Lankan student and his (white) Australian wife and hearing that this was the only place to live they'd been able to find in all of Melbourne. (Maybe my four year-old mind exagggerated the memory, but maybe not.) At that point, it was not possible, by law, for non-whites (including Chinese) to get Australian citizenship.

I'm not young, but I'm not that old, either. Many Australians have come a long way from the toxic, freely expressed racism of those days. But you don't go from something like that being an accepted and "normal" point of view to a color blind society in a few decades. There *is* some shocking racism in Australia. There's some shocking racism everywhere. Whether or not there's more in Australia depends on where you are in the country. Queensland, the Deep North so to speak, can make your hair curl, if it doesn't already.

And don't even get me started on the shocking sexism....
 
 
Baobab Branches and Plastic
10:40 / 07.03.06
I had a much longer post - but my computer died - boo hoo.

Basically my points where:

Yes Australia is racist, positively and negatively. The government governs citizens differently on the basis of race.

Australia - High in multiculturalism, low on integration = tension and social friction. read the old 'they date our women but don't let theirs out the house'. So - many people now want multiethnic monoculture with a core set of beliefs of what it is to be Australian. Something I'm weirdly symphathetic to (even though its essentially facism) given that ideas like universal human rights, rights to privacy, what defines mutual respect, and the limits of tolerance, would make a nice change from the apathetic level of selfishness that defines Australian/Global culture.

Australia has an entrenched ideological divide that is rarely appreciated... Oz-bloke Foody Culture Vs. City Pooftahs. Australian culture isn't so much racist as based on people being jokey, laconic, aggressive, loud, brash, competitive and extroverted. When people move to Australia it isn't largely because they were happy with where they were and decided to move to Australia because it seemed like the sort of place that the shared the same beliefs as them. Australia's recent immigration policy is largely based on SE Asian Economic migrants and refugees from all other parts of the world. In such a way its not hard to see how tensions develop the extroverted types see failure to engage as rejection, and introverted shellshocked types resent the constant attention and retreat further.

Australians should take claims of racism of the chin, yeah as a country we're racist, what country isn't, so what? The question is what extent is it Racist? In my experience Australia is less racist than Japan (the most racist place I have ever been to) SAE, America, Norway, Sweden, France, India, Pakistan, (well to be honest any third world country with a few notable exceptions which I won't) etc etc basically Australia is on par with most other developed countries BUT the least nationalistic country I have ever been to (inc Britan).
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
20:13 / 04.02.08
I'll start my reply by saying that there are racist people in Australia, just as there is in any other country you care to mention.

But Australia is not a racist country.

With all due respect to the author of the original post, your evidence is pretty thin the be branding the whole country "notoriously racist". You have a cousin who once lived in Australia, you spoke to a person who once wrote a book (so he is therefore "qualified"), you had a friend that lived in Sydney, you didn't see many non-white faces on television, we protect our borders against unauthorised entrants (what country doesn't?), Thomas Hickey fell off his bike and died - after he had fled from the police, and the Cronulla riots. Am I the only one who sees the irony in your statement? Again with all due respect, only one of these incidents could be contrued as having any root in racism. The Cronulla riots. I'll get to that later.

The little known second verse of the Australian anthem includes the line "For those who come across the sea, we've boundless plains to share". Share those plains we have, and we continue to share those plains to this day in a largely harmonious way. Australia is one of the most culturally diverse nations on Earth, with a correspondingly high rate of inter-racial marriage. I invite anyone to refer to the Australian Bureau of Statistics 2006 Census for some interesting statistical facts on this.

The thing is that Australians recognise difference and are comfortable with it. I feel that rather than being racist, our culture is mature enough to recognise difference, celebrate it, incorporate it and move on. For some people recognising any difference at all is racist. For example the statement "Chinese have black hair" will be racist to many, regardless of factuality. For some people this recognition of difference is completely shocking and the only way they can define it is by branding it racist. I defy anyone to find a single racist policy in Australian law. The interpretation that by turning away boat people we are racist doesn't hold up to scrutiny at all - in fact that interpretation is probably racist in itself. I can't think of any country that willingly allows unauthorised entry of its borders, are all countries thereby racist?

The Cronulla race riots are often cited as evidence of Australia's intrinsic racism. Very few people look at the root causes of what transpired that day. There is a problem with Lebanese crime in Sydney. Racist comment? No, it's a fact. Young men of Lebanese men are over-represented as a proportion of those convicted of crime, particularly those relating to violence. Young Lebanese men are also over represented as a proportion of the population in prisons. The problem is widespread enough that the NSW Police set up a taskforce to tackle the specific issue, namely Lebanese crime. Is that racist? In the weeks leading up to the riot there had been an increasing incidence of groups of young Lebanese men attending the beach and verbally and physically abusing "Aussies" particularly young women. This culminated in an assault on a volounteer lifesaver at the beach. The gathering on the day of the riot was initially intended as a "reclaiming". Racist elements took over and the rest is history. I'd like to state that I find the events of that day to be as repulsive as any decent and fair minded person. Who made those thugs the arbiters of who is or isn't Australian? I certainly didn't ask them to speak for me! But what happened that day stemmed from genuine frustration. Far from proving that Australia is intrinsically racist it served only to prove that there are racist people within Australia.

It could therefore be argued that even if my point is correct this proves that Australia is racist. By causing people to become so introverted within their own community, their own culture, they feel a need to lash out at the members of another community.

I'm going to propose another idea which may well be branded racist.

Multiculturalism is to blame to a large extent. Multiculturalism by its very nature is racist. By putting people in a particular cultural "box" we segregate them. John is Chinese, Max is Anglo, Jill is Sudanese, while that may be an inoffensive fact, if we have many cultures existing within our society we will have an identity crisis. When there is no Australian culture, but multiple cultures, segregation will exist. People are separated from each other by virtue of their culture. How can I identify with Chinese culture if I'm not Chinese? How can I enter that culture? I believe that Australia should be mono-cultural. I believe that we should strive for an Australian culture, a multi racial Australian culture - not a multi-cultural Australia. Australian culture does exist (contrary to popular belief). Think of the things tat people think of Australia and Australians from the outside and you'll probably come up with a few things; warm, friendly, tolerant, good at sport, easygoing. That is Australian culture. You don't need to be of any particular race to join Australian culture, you just need to be part of Australian culture, a culture based on the "fair go" for everyone. That isn't to say you can't celebrate your cultural ancestry, you just have to accept Australian values. By having first generation Australians identifying themselves as "Lebanese", "Chinese" "Scottish" or whatever is a cultural failure, a multi-cultural failure.

There have been racist policies in the past, such as the White Australia policy, but you need to put them in the context of their time. For comparison, many US stats had an active policy of segregatation between black and white. Some people may say "Ahhhh, but Australia only gave the vote to aboriginal people in 1967". This is actually wrong. The Ammendments to the constitution were as follows:

Section 51(xxvi) was removed. This section stated [Federal Government had the power to make laws with respect to] "the people of any race, other than the Aboriginal race in any State, for whom it is deemed necessary to make special laws."

Section 127 was also removed. This section stated "In reckoning the numbers of the people of the Commonwealth, or of a State or other part of the Commonwealth, Aboriginal natives shall not be counted."

There are good reasons why these sections of the constitution written in at the time of Federation in 1901. The reason was that there was an acute understanding that the aboriginal people were the original inhabitants and that it was felt unfair that "White Man's" law be impose upon the aboriginal people who had their own set of laws and customs. As a matter of fact, this had the effect of creating two nations in Australia. The Commonwealth of Australia, and the Aboriginal Nation. Many poeple will also argue that Aboriginals were also given only given Australian citizenship in 1948. That is actually correct, but the rest of Australia was only given Australian citizenship as weel, prior to that there were no Australian citizens, we were "British Subjects". Aboriginals always, from the time of Federation, had the right to vote. Due to the fact that all citizens of the states of Australia had the right to vote in Commonwealth elections, all aboriginal people had to do to vote in Commonwealth elections was enroll with their state electoral commission.

The ammendments to the constitution were made because the wording was racist, rather than their having any racist effect.

The racism debate happens almost daily in Australia. To the point that I just think that everyone should take a deep breath and relax. We do pretty well. If other people from other countries want to brand us racist then let them. They obviously haven't been here, haven't experience the wonderfully tolerant, diverse, harmonious society that we've all worked hard for. It isn't perfect but it's incredibly successful. I think a great characteristic of Australia and Australians is that we can have a laugh at ourselves, not take ourselves too seriously. So lets keep having a laugh at ourselves, and a laugh at others, it's generally done in an affectionate way anyway. If others can't deal with it then that's their problem. There is no right wing nationalist movement in Australia of any scale in Australia, show me any other nation in which that is true. One Nation came and went in four years and disappeared without so much as a whimper. Yes there are racists in Australia, but Australia is not a racist country.

I'm sorry to be so long winded but I have travelled through many countries where the racism is much more pervasive than Australia. In fact I find it difficult to remember a less racist country (maybe Canada). I think the problem that many people see in Australia is not racism but our laconic attitude. Oh, and in case you are wondering…… I'm a first generation, mixed non Australian, non-Anglo ancestry…… Australian.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
21:50 / 04.02.08
I suspect, my friend, that you are a wowser. Not a larrikin.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:15 / 04.02.08
Think of the things tat people think of Australia and Australians from the outside and you'll probably come up with a few things; warm, friendly, tolerant, good at sport, easygoing.

Well, actually, apart from "good at sport", I'm not at all sure about this as a description of what people think of Australians ... but is this really enough to base a culture on? I mean, you've got five descriptive terms there, which is not really all that much; nor, for that matter, is the idea of "a fair go" really enough to maintain a culture.

First up, of course, because who gets to have a fair go seems to be decided by a fair few factors. These Lebanese youths, for example - you mention above that they are disproportionately represented in crime statistics. Is there a reason for that, beyond the intrinsic criminality of the Lebanese? Are there economic and social disparities that may help to explain it? By the same token, I'm not sure I see a fair go in the dichotomy of "Lebanese crime" on the one hand - which appears to be something that just happens - and the violence at Cronulla, which although unacceptable is explained as having "stemmed from genuine frustration". If the Australian values you espouse expect this denial of interiority from non-white Australians, I can't shake the feeling that they are going to be a tough sell.
 
 
Tsuga
22:59 / 04.02.08
Young men of Lebanese men are over-represented as a proportion of those convicted of crime, particularly those relating to violence. Young Lebanese men are also over represented as a proportion of the population in prisons. The problem is widespread enough that the NSW Police set up a taskforce to tackle the specific issue, namely Lebanese crime. Is that racist?
I see Haus has touched on the fact that there may well be reasons behind these proportions. Just saying that one can look at the statistics and that tells us that young Lebanese men are more prone to violent crime is at the least simplistic and yes, possibly is racist.
As far as multiculturalism, it seems your comments on that may be over simplifying as well, or you may broaden your definition of the term "culture". There are many levels of culture and subculture, overlapping or opposed or parallel. People who collect Eisenhower lapel pins or subscribe to Cat Fancy magazine are in their own subculture, and those who do both are involved in more than one subculture. "Australians" are not one homogeneous culture any more than "Americans" or anyone else; we are a conglomeration of cultures and subcultures personal, local, national, etcetera. Most people today are multicultural individuals, it seems to me.
By putting people in a particular cultural "box" we segregate them.
It could be a problem when people become too insulated within any one culture, mainly because of the effects of ethnocentrism (is there a broader word for that? oh, yes, prejudice). That insulation can be self as well as externally imposed. Becoming too insulated in "Australian" as a culture could be too limiting, as well. Many of the people here who strongly identify as "American" (that is, culturally, above all else, not as a nationality) are among the most prejudicial xenophobes around.
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
06:56 / 05.02.08
West Baltimore - Does it not seem a little hypocritical to say on one hand that Lebanese crime, which can be qantified in terms of measured statistics, is justified due whatever environmental factors you care to mention (in this case "economic and social disparities", but any unmeasured and unquantifiable racism on behalf of "Australians" (who are these notoriously racist Australians anyway)? Racism is racism, and never justified. I'd also like you to point out where in the my post I justified any racism from any race? Wouldn't you therefore say that your post it just a little, dare I say it..... racist? As for a "fair go" not being much to base a culture on, well I'll ask you, can you come up with something better? Seems like a pretty good basis to me.

Tsuga - You seem to approach my post in a smilar vein. I put it to both of you that there is never a justification for racism, so why it becomes acceptable due to whatever reason you care to mention you care to mention is beyond me. It seems that in your eyes that only Caucasians are capable of racism. You also state "Just saying that one can look at the statistics and that tells us that young Lebanese men are more prone to violent crime is at the least simplistic and yes, possibly is racist", well to counter that I would put to you that statistics aren't racist, they're a statistic and therefore a fact. It would seem that for whatever reason, at this time, young Lebanese men ARE more prone to violent crime. That's not racism, that's a fact.

The facts are ugly but the facts are facts, groups of young Lebanese men were attending the beach, spitting on Caucasian women and calling them "sluts". They were also involved in a number of violent attacks on young men who confronted about their behavior. Furthermore there were a number of high profile gang rape convictions, involving groups of up to fifty Lebanese men at a time. These rapes were all perpetrated on caucasian women. There is NO justification for this, no matter how bad your circumstances, any argument to the contrary is frankly disgusting.

Just as there is no justification for a group of young Caucasian men starting racist chants at Cronulla that ugly day and behaving in a violent way. I was ashamed and extremely angry as 99.9% of Australians were. That is not my country! But one does have to ask. Why weren't the Cronulla riots focused on Chinese, or Africans or Brazilians? Did his just happen spontaneously? If so why had they never happened before and why haven't they happened since? That's not an attempt to justify by way of inquiry, it's just a question.

I think another point to be aware of is that you are focusing on one isolated incident. If we use this rationale, going back to the original post The US must be "Notoriously Racist" due to certain states of the US policy of segregation right up until the 60's. This was not one isolated event perpetrated by less than 100 people on one day! British colonialism.... 300 years! Japanese calling foreigners gaijin? Apartheid anyone? I could go on and on and on. The notion that Australia could be notoriously racist, dispite the fact that we are he most multicultural, racially mixed and largely harmonious is a bit silly. You could choose any country you like, select an isolated event, and brand the whole country racist. That's what happening to Australia in this discussion.

I'll put a question back to you. Give me a justification for the assertion that Australia is notoriously racist......
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:31 / 05.02.08
West Baltimore - Does it not seem a little hypocritical to say on one hand that Lebanese crime, which can be qantified in terms of measured statistics, is justified due whatever environmental factors you care to mention (in this case "economic and social disparities", but any reaction to a level of well documented crime is extremely racist on the oher?

Point out where I said that. What I said was that you are making excuses for the Cronulla rioters. You continue to do so.

But one does have to ask. Why weren't the Cronulla riots focused on Chinese, or Africans or Brazilians? Did his just happen spontaneously? If so why had they never happened before and why haven't they happened since?

This is the eternal problem with saying "I hate racism as much as the next man". You never know who you're standing next to.
 
 
Evil Scientist
09:21 / 05.02.08
Did his just happen spontaneously? If so why had they never happened before and why haven't they happened since? That's not an attempt to justify by way of inquiry, it's just a question.

As you say this was a charged period in the local area's history. It did not happen spontaneously though as you are most probably aware. The situation was provoked into violent conflict by three separate hate groups who are believed to have stirred up what was, apparently, intended to be a peaceful protest by sending out mass texts which suggested people converge on the area in support of a day bashing both people of Lebanese descent and African descent.

Peter75, I think that you need to have a think about why there is such a high incidence of crime amongst Lebanese youths (and perhaps bear in mind that understanding the why in no way excuses the crime). You have to be careful to avoid suggesting that one side's atrocious violent acts were in any way more acceptable than the others. You seem quite happy to write off the actions of the Caucasian rioters as being triggered by previous actions of criminals whose ethnicity was Lebanese, yet you don't seem to want to even accept that the violence caused by the Lebanese groups might be due to any previous actions.

Furthermore there were a number of high profile gang rape convictions, involving groups of up to fifty Lebanese men at a time.

As vile and terrible as these rapes were I don't see anything in the reports of the riots to suggest that the perpertrators of them were present amongst the Lebanese people involved in the riots. So I am not sure why they can be used as an excuse for the violence on that day. Do you feel that indiscriminate vigilante action on anyone "looking Lebanese" (which included a Jewish man and a Greek woman) would in some way deter future criminal acts?

I'll put a question back to you. Give me a justification for the assertion that Australia is notoriously racist......

Well no-one who has answered your post this year has suggested that so, y'know, no.
 
 
Tsuga
09:37 / 05.02.08
I said: Just saying that one can look at the statistics and that tells us that young Lebanese men are more prone to violent crime is at the least simplistic and yes, possibly is racist.
It would seem that for whatever reason, at this time, young Lebanese men ARE more prone to violent crime. That's not racism, that's a fact.
You're right that statistics are simply statistics, I was ineptly saying that how you interpret them is where the problem comes. Correlation does not imply causation. I should have expanded my statement to say that while young men of Lebanese descent may be, in that area, statistically more likely to commit a violent crime, to say it's only because they are Lebanese is at least simplistic. Now, you did not say that it was only because they were Lebanese, but if you are going to get into a discussion of this, and say things like There is a problem with Lebanese crime in Sydney(among many other things), I think you should qualify your statements and explain them more fully to not appear either simplistic or racist, especially when addressing a group that is unfamiliar with you.
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
10:10 / 05.02.08
I'll direct you to your own post where you stated "These Lebanese youths, for example - you mention above that they are disproportionately represented in crime statistics. Is there a reason for that, beyond the intrinsic criminality of the Lebanese?"

For a start I don't recall ever citing "intrinsic criminality" that was something you wrote. It really doesn't matter what the reasons are. I'm just stating a fact as it stands. Futhermore, I don't see how anything I have written justifies racism or rioting in any form, I really think you should go back and read it with a more open mind. I am pointing out the cause. How is pointing out a cause some how construable as a justification? It's really cheap to insinuate that I am racist by doing so, please don't do it again! I don't want to flame you but that really is the way I read your post and I am angry if that is your intent. I understand it may not be but, with all due respect, you don't know me and nothing I have written could possibly interpreted as such.

You seem to be perpetuating a double standard. For example why didn't you jump on the original post when they said that their "personal experience" of racism in Australia extended as far as second hand accounts and watching television? It seems very hypocritical to then come down so heavily on my comments after reading, and to a large extent agreeing with, the original post. On that basis I could just as easily accuse you of racism, or insinuate as much, and use that hypocracy as a justification. But I don't and I won't. I would hope we can discuss this in a mature fashion.

It seems that by saying that Australia isn't racist that actually makes you racist. The subject of racism is extremely emotive, and it is repugnant to brand an entire people or country racist. It's racism in itself! Is the USA racist? No. Is South Africa racist? No! Anyone who makes such sweeping statements is indulging in the type of generalisation that makes racism possible.

What I am trying to do is put what happened the day of the riot into some sort of context. Please understand that I am attempting to illustrate that Australia is not a racist country, so it may seem that I favour one group over the other. This isn't the case. I am also wanting to illustrate that this was an isolated incident without precedent or repeat. Yet because of that one unique event, Australia is now "Notoriously Racist". Why aren't other countries considered "Notoriously Racist" even after the repeated racial violence of their football fans? The Cronulla Riots got a lot of space in foreign media and I was very keenly interested in foreign reportage of the issue, as were many Australians. Mostly we don't give a shit about what the outside world thinks! But people outside of Australia could be forgiven for believing that this WAS a spontaneous event as the riot was never really put into any context. Nor was there much in the way of reports on the many "revenge attacks" that continued for weeks after. Maybe because they occured at night, not in broad daylight.... I don't know. The point is that I don't condone violence, and I don't condone racism, but rarely do these things just "happen" in isolation. I am just reporting the facts and hoping that they speak for themselves. I haven't told any lies so why am I somehow supporting the riot by reporting the events in the lead up. It would be akin to saying that I supported World War 1 because I reported the assasination of Franz Ferdinand.

Once again, if you can point out where I made an excuse for the Cronulla rioters I'll gladly take it back, because it isn't the way I feel, nor was it my intent. I think you'll find that I said "here is no justification for a group of young Caucasian men starting racist chants at Cronulla that ugly day and behaving in a violent way. I was ashamed and extremely angry as 99.9% of Australians were." You may say that I then went on to state a justification. I didn't. I stated a reason. Just as you attempted to do in your post about reasons for over representation of young Lebanese men in crime statistics. There is always a reason, there is never a justification for racism. We could sit here and debate the reasons for racism all night. But, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, there may be reasons, there is no justification. I just can't re-iterate it enough. So can we put that one to bed?

As for your point "This is the eternal problem with saying "I hate racism as much as the next man". You never know who you're standing next to" Could you please put this into some context, because as it stands, it is just a comment floating in space and, as such, I can't respond to it.

So again I'll ask you to justify your position that "Australia is Notoriously Racist" which is the original point of my post

Sorry for my long windedness but I feel very strongly about this! I also feel that an opposing view has been entirely absent from the debate on this site by far. Thanks for your interest in it!
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
10:14 / 05.02.08
Sorry, my above post was drected to West Baltimore. Took so long to write that I was no longer the next poster.

Thanks for your interest guys.
 
  

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