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Barbelith: 'pro-queer', 'anti-hetero' and community

 
  

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Smoothly
12:48 / 03.02.06
an interest is not the same as a preference.

i would say i am pro animal rights because i think it is something that should be.
am i using 'pro' wrongly, or perhaps differently?


Um, what?
If someone is ‘pro animal rights’, I generally take that to mean that they (a) assert that animals have rights, and (b) support and defend those rights, and oppose people who feel differently.
If someone were to say that they were interested in animal rights, I would not automatically infer (a), let alone (b).

Maybe you are using ‘pro’ differently, maybe you’re not, it’s impossible to tell. More to the point, perhaps you understand ‘interest’ differently.
 
 
Char Aina
12:49 / 03.02.06
perhaps there was some confusion regarding my language earlier; i dont think his comedy stylings are anything other than ignorant.
my "its okay" was not meant to be my opinion, but instead his.
he feels it is okay because he is not racist.

the snot is on his nose, not mine, and i read most of the thread linked before today.

thank you, though.
 
 
Char Aina
12:52 / 03.02.06
fair point regarding interest.
i think i was talking to my perception of barbelith more than your word choice.
 
 
waxy dan
12:53 / 03.02.06
MD can identify hetpanic, whether you believe him to be right or wrong in doing so, and the reaction to that is managed inthread also.. Haus, this thread is a reaction to that. This is where the reaction is being managed and discussed.


I think that's what we're doing here, isn't it? Considering? This is the kind of thing I mean about thin-skinned responses...

You're mixing two different quotes on two different subjects. One on Barbelith sometimes appearing closed to newbies, the other on how thin-skinned heterosexuals are when the assumption of heterosexuality as normative is undermined... I'm not following your link?

On challenging; you didn't answer my question directly. You just made a point about how challenging automatic privilege is a good thing. Which it is. Creating an environment where homosexuals are given "equal rights" is not the same as challenging heteros. That's like saying a straight guy is being challenged by simply being in a gay club.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:53 / 03.02.06
Not wishing to dabble too far off into these waters, but yout you said but its okay because he and i both know. Do you then mean that he thinks it's OK (although you don't) because (he thinks) you and he both know (but in fact you do not know that, and think he is being racist), or do you mean that you both know that he is not being racist, but only he thinks it's OK?

As I say, comparisons have a tendency of muddying the issue if not thought through.
 
 
Smoothly
13:00 / 03.02.06
perhaps there was some confusion regarding my language earlier; i dont think his comedy stylings are anything other than ignorant.

Ahh, okay. Thanks for clarifying. I have to admit I was a bit confused by your assertion that his audience had no way of knowing that he was being clever instead of racist.

So, no way of knowing he was being clever, because he *wasn’t* being clever. I see.
 
 
Char Aina
13:03 / 03.02.06
to be fair i think its less the comprison and more the poor use of language in my post that contributed to the confusion.

he defends his use of racist language on the grounds that he is not racist and is therefore clearly joking. he's very much the type of chap discussed in the 'too clever' thread.

he reckons its okay because he feels he isnt being racist.
he feels this based mostly on his feeling that he's not a racist at heart.
i dont believe he is a racist at heart either, but i am uncomfortable with his frequent use of hate speech in contexts where the transgressive nature of that language seems to be the only source of humour.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:10 / 03.02.06
Ah, I see - thanks for clarifying. And yeah, I think it's entirely fair to say "dude, you may think that it's OK because it has no racist intent, but, fear of pummelling aside, how do you think it felt when, because you are so comfortable with using hate speech, some of it just kind of popped out in front of that black guy? Only it doesn't matter a great deal from his point of view whether he's getting this shit from someone who thinks he's a racist or not - it's still racist language". But anyway - back to the gay!
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:14 / 03.02.06
Do the straights on Barbelith consider their sexuality to be the norm though? Most het posters seem to agree that heterosexuality is just one in a wide spectrum of flavours available to the modern primate.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:15 / 03.02.06
That's like saying a straight guy is being challenged by simply being in a gay club.

Once again: comparisons are often not helpful. The short answer to this is "no it isn't". A slightly longer answer goes something like this:

You have moved from the idea of challenging a concept tio the idea of challenging a person, without apparently noticing. this causes severe problems. So, let's move back slightly. Let's look at the gay club. In the gay club, certain things function slightly differently from outside the gay club. For instance, there is an expectation that two men can be physically affectionate in the club without fearing verbal or physical abuse, which sadly is not necessarily the case outside the club in the street. Conversely, a straight person entering that space may, depending on the atmosphere and the rules, spoken or unspoken, of that space decide to alter their behaviour in order to fit culturally with the expectations of the space - for example, they might not feel comfortable getting off with their girlfriend/boyfriend on the dancefloor, because this space has been created to facilitate the expression of non-straight affection. So, yes, to some extent to be a straight person in a space primarily oriented towards non-straight users may lead one to examine and alter one's behaviour. Barbelith, as a queer-friendly space, might do the same.
 
 
waxy dan
13:26 / 03.02.06
You have moved from the idea of challenging a concept to the idea of challenging a person, without apparently noticing.

No, I haven't. That being a preposterous thing to do is exactly the point I was making. People (in this case heteros) were being challenged. People were taking exception to that; not that a given paradigm or world-view was being challenged, but that individuals were. My initial question was asking why that was a good thing?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:26 / 03.02.06
You're mixing two different quotes on two different subjects.

The short answer to this is "no, I am not". I am relating your statement:

Haus, if it's a claim which comes up in various forms really fairly regularly on Barbelith.. is it not worth considering that there might be a kernel of truth to it?

To my slightly sarky sampling of Liger_null:

One of the things that I find fascinating here is how thin-skinned heterosexuals are when the assumption of heterosexuality as normative is undermined.

And pointing out that the claim we are somehow discarding any possibility of the aforementioned kernel, rather than, for example, discussing it in a thread dedicated to it in the Policy, seems quite a good instantiation of that thin-skinned reaction, and also the pursuit of victim/minority status that I previously exemplified with Dead Megatron's self-representation as the only straight in the global village. At no point did I address Barbelith sometimes appearing closed to newbies, which I did not feel was immediately relevant.

Evil Scientist: Not quite what I meant. Heterosexuality is the norm is precisely not stated, as a rule. Google for the thread "A question for the pride parade people" for an example of the assumption of heterosexuality as social (rather than purely sexual) baseline.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:49 / 03.02.06
No, I haven't. That being a preposterous thing to do is exactly the point I was making. People (in this case heteros) were being challenged. People were taking exception to that; not that a given paradigm or world-view was being challenged, but that individuals were.

However. The short answer to this is "no it wasn't". Your original point was:

Is it being challenged a good thing? Why does *anything* (that isn't of harm to someone else) about someone need to be challenged? I'll sound very naive in saying this; but why can't we all just get along without challenging each other's sexuality?

So, a) you were not talking about people being challenged, but about sexualities being challenged, or more broadly characteristics being challenged. You are now saying, if I understand aright, that you were actually talking about people being challenged, which you were not, but we can let that slide. Further, you are saying that your comparison, in whch a person is challenged by being in a place (a gay bar), was intended to highlight the idiocy of this idea. I'm confused at that point, and I think, having quite a high opinion of myself, that this may be becasue you are confused. You don't seem to have read the rest of my post, so we should probably stop there.

However, I think one of our problems here lies in a confusion about the word "challenge" - I'd have a think about what you think it means in various cases - and also in distinguishing "the actions of Mister Disco in a thread" and "the way Barbelith functions and is designed to function". I'm also unsure about the idea a) that nothing harmless shoud ever be challenged (pending confusion over what the word "challenged" means) and b) that instinctive assumption that any given space functions heterosocially is not harmful.
 
 
Sniv
14:03 / 03.02.06
Evil Scientist - I think to be posting on Barb (as a het) with any kind of frequency, you need be gay-friendly, or at least aware that apples are not the only fruit, and that they may be a different ratio of homos to hets than IRL.

I don't really wish to be side-tracked onto the question of what's the 'norm' though, as there are far too many issues connected to this loaded statement (be it social, psychological or biological 'normality') to make any sense/not be flamed till I'm chargrilled (even if my intent is well-meant).

As to the question in the thread title though... I would say that, from what I have seen, Barb is certainly pro-queer, which is no bad thing. I like that this is a space that both hets and gays feel at home in enough to be brutally honest, and it's a nice mix that I'm not exposed to every day. As to anti-het - I don't feel it very much, certainly. Obviously, I wouldn't be talking about the rack on some bird I just saw in the street on this forum, but that's not what this place is for anyway, so it's certainly not a problem for me. However, I do often feel a bit gun-shy when posting on subjects to do with sexuality, especially coming from a het perspective without much contact with gay culture. Granted, this may be my own hang-ups/paranoia, but I don't particularly like offending people/being misunderstood (ha!), which means I'm much more likely to steer from the 'heavier' threads. Of course, I could spend more time writing clearerly and making sure I int misundermestod, but honestly, I don't have the time or WPM (like many other posters seem to have) to supply an annotated essay for every answer. But I digress, this is my hang-up, and not the fault of anyone on the board. Phew.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:18 / 03.02.06
and it's a nice mix that I'm not exposed to every day.

I think that's a really important point - thanks, John. Barbelith is not a standard social environment, for all sorts of reasons - it's geogrpahically and culturally diverse, and because it's a virtual space a lot of people might be using it as a different sort of safe space simultaneously. That creates conflicts, and demands a difficult interaction between respect and the slappy hand of doom, which I think we all have trouble balancing sometimes...
 
 
The Falcon
15:15 / 03.02.06
Yeah, I'd just like to reaffirm what John said there, really. Disco's one or two comments in the thread were annoying to me, but annoying in a way that one mightn't normally encounter; this hardly constitutes any mass sentiment, or 'getting away with it' in the broader context. I think s/he's wrong, but I've blithely ignored the thread until today anyway, and will continue to dismiss the said poster's ideas that chafe in perpetuum. (I should think.)

I do think the gender politics aspect of Barbelith is, well, what I'd expect in a board I also perceive as pro-left/liberal and anti-discrimination. It can take a while to get used to, if you're not really used to the company of politicised, (generally) whip-smart bi and homosexuals, but it ain't no bad thing. Breeder perspective: I do not feel victimised, in any way.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:45 / 03.02.06
From: Tannhauser
To: Legion of Gay Doom
Subject: Duncan F.

Victimise harder!
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
16:15 / 03.02.06
Haus - (straight people in a gay club) for example, they might not feel comfortable getting off with their girlfriend/boyfriend on the dancefloor, because this space has been created to facilitate the expression of non-straight affection.

Enh. Does this happen? Safe space does not automatically mean sexually-reversed space; I don't think I've ever seen a straight couple in a gay bar who didn't express affection just as openly. I would tend to think that if they were uncomfortable in that space they'd be more likely to express affection, even if only in a "hands off" fashion.

Mind you, I tend to think that most of my straight friends are somehow just as queer as I am, even if it isn't readily obvious.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:21 / 03.02.06
I think behaviours differ, to be honest. However, our challenge here is to relate that back from the metaphorical space to the specific space of Barbelith. I'm not sure, for example, if anyone generally feels prevented from talking about their heterosexual relationship on Barbelith. People, gay and straight alike, seem to feel able to be "coupley", if they so desire. That might not be the same as they might on another board, or on Houndslow High Street...
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
16:55 / 03.02.06
I would tend to agree, although the thread that gave birth to this one is a good example of people momentarily forgetting about the "safe space as inclusive" aspect of Barbelith, rather than "safe space as seperated" (which has its own place, of course). Being specific about who/what you desire/are-aroused-by/enjoy is important because it establishes where you're coming from in the gender-sphere.

I also think (in the case of that thread) that the specifics of your preference are important because being gender-non-specific in that case smacks too much of the pronoun game. You don't come out of the closet and then shove other people inside.
 
 
P. Horus Rhacoid
17:38 / 03.02.06
Speaking as someone who recently started an extremely wanky thread partially about a dilemma but mostly about unrequited het luuuurve, I found Barbelith remarkably receptive. To be sure, the thread evolved into a discussion of mysoginy etc beyond its original remit, but that's not a bad thing at all- a) it forced me to rethink a number of assumptions I was making, and b) at no point did I feel like I was being challenged on the basis of being (in the confines of the thread at least) heterosexual.

Which brings me to my next point, which kind of dovetails with John's. I don't believe that Barbelith is anti-het beyond maybe (maybe) some individual posters, but even if it is I don't think that's damning in any way- as John points out, it's a mix you don't get anywhere else and that's a huge part of Barbelith's value to me. The pro-queer-ness of the board and its tendency to challenge the dominance of heterosexuality (and really dominant power structures and discourses in general) has in turn led me to examine my own sexuality. With self-examination has come a recognition that my sexual orientation falls somewhere shy of hetero(to a degree I am as yet unsure of- I still identify as straight, if that makes any sense). Not to be melodramatic, but I'm not sure I could have done that if I wasn't involved here. At the least Barbelith made the realization much easier, and certainly less earth-shattering than it might otherwise have been.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, whatever it is this place is doing, it's doing it pretty well.
 
 
Char Aina
17:42 / 03.02.06
ohmigod!!
barbelith makes you gay!!!

ahem.
sorry.

as you were.
 
 
P. Horus Rhacoid
17:49 / 03.02.06
Oh shit, that was all part of the Gay Agenda, wasn't it?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
17:59 / 03.02.06
Yeah, we try to fit in the straight-to-gay conversions in that hour following the three-hour brunching block. About midday. Then we break for mimosas.
 
 
Shrug
18:11 / 03.02.06
I've never really considered it before but I think Barbelith has had quite a few heterosexual relationship threads but never a queer one? I couldn't imagine that one of a similar nature if created would be responded to in a fashion anymore considered or varyingly sarcastic and funny though.
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
18:20 / 03.02.06
I would be uncomfortable in saying that Barbelith is an anti-het space but do wonder why this perception has arisen.

When Mister Disco admitted snideness (unnecessarily) and Lepidopteran apologised for a potentially inappropriate reaction on a "red button issue", it did make we think that some of the players on this field might consider that not all of us are playing the Super Theory Bitch Edition, particularly in the conversation.

Therein we might avoid fear of criticising the emperhir.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
18:55 / 03.02.06
Seldom: ...it did make [me] think that some of the players on this field might consider that not all of us are playing the Super Theory Bitch Edition, particularly in the conversation.

Additionally, the thread is about sexual desire which is not quite the same as sexuality; I'm thinking in terms of desire being the actual, practical preferences on a person-by-person scale with "sexuality" meaning more in terms of the theoretical and linguistic things that go into that. I'm probably using terminology incorrectly. Theory is great, but sometimes you have to ignore it if you want to get to the heart of the sex buzz.

Unless your particular kink is having an academic analysis being delivered during intercourse.

I'm tempted to write a sex scene, very porny, but replace all the moaning, grunting, dirty talk with detailed dialogue about gender theory. It'd be hard to strike the right balance between the two modes of thinking, but that's what second drafts are for.
 
 
Dead Megatron
20:53 / 03.02.06
Dead Megatron in the "hair on pillow" thread is quite useful on this - his suspicion that he might be the only heterosexual left (on Barbelith? On Earth?) speaks of a sense of victimhood possibly out of sync with his statistical majority - on Barbelith and on Earth.

Just to be clear, I want to re-estate that such comment was meant to be a humorous "de-constructive" comment, not a real description of how I feel here. I'm relatively new here (I joined for the Temple and Comic forums, but I am quickly widening my parameters), and I'm learning I must be careful with when, where, and what about I make jokes here (which clashes with my usually smirking personality), and that's fine. Good, even.

Barbelith is not anti-het, it's more anti-chauvinism, or to be more broad, anti-"any behaviour derogatory to any race and/or sexual orientation", and that's great too. Since current male hetero culture is strongly based on such behaviours, it's normal that some conflict may arise, but heterosexuality per se is not the problem. I know I'm learning quite a lot here, and Barbelith still have not turned me gay...

I do think we should be pround of our sexual orientation, whatever it may be, and that does not need to ensue any spite for other orientations in people with half a brain who know who they are. I know that I find women to be painfully beatiful, delightful, and, well, delicious (I guess the gay/bi women in here would agree with me) and I want the whole planet to know it, for this is who I am.

And just to add some fuel to the debate (gosh, I just can't help myself), do you people think that something like "homopanic" or "heterophoby" even exist?
 
 
Ganesh
20:55 / 03.02.06
bisexuals like ganesh?

I expect I could make a pretty good case for being bisexual, if it came down to it, on the grounds that I've been sexually attracted to (and had relationships with) women, and it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that this could happen again.

What's your point?
 
 
Olulabelle
22:38 / 03.02.06
Crikey.

I've tried to deal with the 'Australia is notoriously racist' issue by posting a new topic in Switchboard. I hope that's acceptable.

Regarding this thread, I probably should have written "'could be construed to be'" anti-hetero'. My bad. With regard to why I think this, it's really hard to find examples of why Barbelith could be construed as being anti-hetero without re-reading every thread I've ever read. That's not an excuse, it's more an explantion of a general feeling. Over the three years I have been a member here I have come to feel that in general when a poster writes about specifically hetero feelings or more concisely male hetero feelings towards women, they are quite commonly mocked in a way that any post about male or female feelings towards the same sex would not be. Sometimes those comments are questioned, but generally not by the people who would question anti-gay posts, as in this case. More often than not anti-hetero posts just pass into the Barbelith archives.

I waited quite a while before I posted anything about this, and I was waiting to see if the 'champions of obliterating sexual intolerance' would pick up on Mr Disco's clear example of an intolerant post. A few people remarked upon it, but not one of those were the key posters on sexuality that Barbelith undoubtly has. Go and read any post on sexuality in the headshop if you want an example of those key posters.

I am not one of those champions and nore are the people who also questioned Mr Disco's post. I don't understand why that is, unless the board, and in particular key posters on sexuality, are more tolerant of anti-hetero posts than they would be of anti-gay.

Mr Disco's post makes blatant assumptions about gender that would in no way be accepted were they referring to being gay, yet no key poster on sexuality and tolerance questioned it.

There are certainly a few people on this board who can be relied upon to consistently point out sexist, racist or (specifically in this case) offensive posts about sexuality but it appears they only question a post if it's offensive to, or derogatory about being gay.

So I think that those posters should also be relied upon to question comments which are derogatory about being heterosexual, since they have, in some ways, set themselves up as monitors of intolerance of all aspects of sexuality.

I'd like to think that this board allows anyone the freedom to speak about their own sexuality without being mocked and the fact that none of the 'usual suspects' questioned Mr Disco's post points, to me, to a general laziness in flagging intolerance of heterosexual posts.

I feel sure that had Mr Disco made a remark about 'homopanic' (obviously unlikely I know) there would have been a much bigger reaction to it from the people who would normally point out these intolerances. As such that implies to me that anti-hetero behaviour on this board is much more likely to be accepted than anti-gay, and as such the board could be construed to be anti-hetero.

If the main posters on sexuality here on this board appear much more likely to tolerate anti-hetero posts or posts which contain offensive comments about heterosexuality than they would a post that could be construed to be anti-gay, then the only conclusion that seems sensible to me is that anti-hetero behaviour on this board is generally considered to be OK by the people who normally lead the way in threads about sexual tolerance or preference.

However, having said that, I don't think it's in any way deliberate. I don't think those key posters have made specific decisions to ignore anti-hetero posts. Maybe it's beyond their conscious circle - it in no way relates to them so perhaps they can't see the intolerance in it?

I don't think this board is deliberately anti-hetero. I think it is lazily so. I come to this conclusion because why else on a board where tolerance and acceptance is much vaunted (and rightly so) could such anti-hetero comments be made and ignored by the people who would normally be instantly questioning it if if it related to any other sexuality?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
22:52 / 03.02.06
Toks: and when they came for the macho i did not speak out, for i was not macho.

go on my son.

i'd also prolly be best pointing out that i think we are talking about different things.

the anti-macho vibe is probably inspired by quite repugnant characters and attitudes, but it isnt always the case that it is aimed at them.
transferrence, i believe they call it.
'its not really me you are angry with', and all that.


I can't quite tell whether you're being serious, here. My statement that I certainly don't feel that it {macho bashing} it is bashing me wasn't intended to mean "therefore it is good"; it was supposed to show that I realsied my feelings on this as a het were not universal and that input from others was welcome.

Movingom, you're suggesting, right, that "macho" is an identity that deserves to be respected on Barbelith, and that even though certain macho people are repugnant, there have been instances where nice, progressive macho people felt bullied (or could have felt bullied) by the behaviour of the board?

Maybe you could explain your definition of "macho". Wikipedia says: "Being macho is overconforming to traditional male gender roles or hypermasculinity". Apart from the possible(?) subversive powers of, say, a woman or gay man acting in a hypermasculine fashion, does this (Macho as a quality/identity) not stink of unexamined opinion?
 
 
Ganesh
22:52 / 03.02.06
Does the expectation that certain posters will automatically leap into action as "champions of obliterating sexual intolerance" in itself represent sexual/gender stereotyping? Probably not, but I suspect it's also a rather poor foundation on which to build a case for the board being 'anti-hetero'. For example, I know full well that the board is full of crashing Morrissey aficionados, but several of those I expected to post in my Moon River thread have not posted there. Does it then follow that they are - and Barbelith is - lazily 'anti-Moon River' because, in their silence, they have failed to live up to my expectations?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:57 / 03.02.06

Mr Disco's post makes blatant assumptions about gender that would in no way be accepted were they referring to being gay, yet no key poster on sexuality and tolerance questioned it.


Really? I'd be interested to know what those assumptions were.
 
 
Olulabelle
23:03 / 03.02.06
No, because a liking for Morrissey is not the same as consistenly addressing sexual intolerance. A liking for Morrissey is personal preference and in the end a fairly flippant subject to post about, (don't shout at me) so an avid Morrissey fan who did not post to your thread could be excused.

Addressing sexual intolerance is surely a more serious issue and therefore I, at least, would have expected posters that care about such things to have noticed and questioned any example, especially if it was in a thread they were already posting in.
 
 
Olulabelle
23:05 / 03.02.06
Haus, they were that if you posted about 'she', 'her', 'women', 'ladies' or 'girls', you were therefore male and could be accused of heteropanic.

That is surely gender assumption, because how else could those posts be heteropanic? Females posting 'she', 'her' etc. could not be accused of heteropanic could they? Am I mising something?
 
  

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