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Underground > Policy & Help >

Barbelith: 'pro-queer', 'anti-hetero' and community

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18:04 / 06.02.06

I live in a "queer-themed" co-op house. Anybody can live here (provided they fit the eligibility requirements of the larger organization we're a part of, and about which we can do nothing), but it's understood that this is a safe space for queer people, and we talk about queer issues. The straight people who live here are expected to be supportive.

Our straight housemates, and our housemates in opposite-gender relationships, seem comfortable making out in the common spaces, and so does everyone else. It's a bit different because we know each other, of course, and we work very hard to keep our house feeling safe. This isn't a situation that can obtain in a bar. But then, I never feel safe in bars, queer or not, so maybe I'm not qualified to comment about that kind of environment.

18:09 / 06.02.06

It's also a living environment, Entity, so it demands a greater degree of commitment from all concerned - so the penalties for not observing the rules of the 'safe space' (exclusion from the household) are presumably greater than would be the case in a bar or club or less 'stakeholding' social setting.

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18:15 / 06.02.06

precisely. thank you.

19:06 / 06.02.06

You yourself commented that it was "notoriously" a meeting place for gay people - so perhaps it's not just "anti-gay folk" that view the 'high attendance' of homosexuals in derogatory terms?

I used the term "notoriously" meaning "widely-known" or "common-knowledge", not "infamously"...

Remember always English is not my first language, such subtleties may escape me from time to time...

19:20 / 06.02.06

Evidently.

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

20:48 / 06.02.06

Ganesh: I agree with you, Papers, generally speaking, but worry more about situations in which there's no attempt at segregation, or prioritisation.

I suppose; if there is no attempt at segregation it is tacitly a "straight bar." It's like every other unspecified bar.

How common are mixed clubs in the UK? Generally in Canada it's straight and gay (with various subcultures in the gay ones) to some extent, although here in town there's "the gay bar" (called Prism) which has maintained its identity, and there was also a place called Electric Avenue that attracted a primarily a lesbian contingent, but both places attract a fairly broad crowd.

There was one gaybar in town called Hush that gradually, because of the types of DJs being brought in and the emphasis on the rave culture 'round these parts, became more of a raver bar despite the huge rainbow flag over the doors. I think it's the closest I've ever seen to what you might call a bi-bar, actually.

20:53 / 06.02.06

There's Duckie. It's 'post-gay'...

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

21:11 / 06.02.06

How curiously duckosexual...

02:24 / 07.02.06

It's 'post-gay'

Do guys with a beard get in for free?

09:41 / 07.02.06

Rubber ducks creep me out, and I don't even know why. Guess I'm anti-duck. The pirate ship is cool, though

btw, what the hell is "pogo-ing"?

ONLY NICE THINGS

11:14 / 07.02.06

Jumping up and down to music.

As in "hey, kids! Why don't we pogo back on topic and try either to relate this to a Policy and Help inquiry about Barbelith's status?"

14:13 / 07.02.06

"..or the uncomonness of fear of hetero-bashing?"

(Haus don't amend your post or that will make no sense)

14:28 / 07.02.06

(Note- this posted as an attempt to pogo ontopic, but before reading the first six or so pages of the thread thoroughly so apologies for repetition)

Barbelith anti-hetero? What a ridiculous notion. Pro-queer maybe, in that we are hostile to hatespeech making this a safe-ish space for minorities of any stripe, so we're as pro-queer as we are pro-anything. The idea of Barbelith as a Big Gay Website seems v. strange to me. We're much more pro-fennec than pro-queer.

I'm pro-PoMo-Boho-homos specifically, 'cos I've been brainwashed by Brighton.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

02:32 / 09.02.06

I have read through the thread and would like to add my thoughts.

I think the "self-outing" among us hets (especially us male hets) comes from the same place as outing yourself as a white middle class american.

We want to be "cool"

When I first started posting here way back when (the Nexus) it was mostly questions about the invisibles. As time went on the board evolved and my interest in items on the board changed. I started reading up on queer theory, politics, spirituality, etc.. in the hopes of entering into discussions like these. Most of the time I would lurk, but occasionally I would post. Occasionally there would be a post about X being lame for whatever reason (X being a quality which I posses, ethnicity, nationality, preference, etc..). The automatic response that would go off in my head was (and occasionally still is, depending on the topic) "Well yeah, I'm X, but I'm cool"

I think what was described as heteropanic is a gut response to identify oneself as the current dominant meme, but cooler then the rest of those hetero jokers, with their maxim and pornography.

On a personal note whenever a discussion of Israel comes up (usually in RL not here) I feel the need to preface any statements with "Well I'm Jewish, but I don't agree with Israels take on..."

Really, it is all about being insecure in who you are, not because you are afraid of being seen as the other, but because you are afraid of being lumped with the "un-cool" masses.

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

04:36 / 09.02.06

Elijah: I think what was described as heteropanic is a gut response to identify oneself as the current dominant meme, but cooler then the rest of those hetero jokers, with their maxim and pornography.

Hmm. But I'm a homo joker, and enjoy my porn as well. I find Maxim a bit boring, though, but I don't think it has anything to do with the possibly airbrushed mostly-naked ladies.

Put another way: self-outing is about trying to express and rationalize a part of yourself because for all the talk of non-specificity and inclusiveness, all those little pieces of ourselves -- even the "distasteful" ones -- are pieces of ourselves and when need to express where we're coming from in the context of whatever the current conversation is. Especially when you're in a position of being "anonymous" (in a sense) you feel the need to position yourself to justify your thoughts. Or apologize for them.

I think Barb doesn't have much to worry about, really, because for every action there is an equal (or greater than) reaction, and then an equal (or greater than) re-reaction. We always question each other.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

16:51 / 11.02.06

Well said Papers.

What I was really trying to get was that those of us in the ruling majority (hetero in this case) often will advertise our own group while supporting another.

A Real World example would be the "Straight but not narrow" shirts that were popular for a long time.

Online you run into problems because wer are extra anonymous, but I don't think when someone states that they have a "girl friend" instead of using a gender nuetral term like "signifigant other" they are trying to marginalize people in same sex relationships. I also don't think that they are saying "I have a GF, stay away gays!" either.

I think in the real world people get so much information through sight and sound that on the internet the need is felt to identify yourself in some way, because whatever visual cues you may have to show your personality (tatoos, "save the whales" pin, etc..) arent valid at this level of communication.

again I ramble, but I hope my point makes sense.

17:01 / 11.02.06

... I don't think when someone states that they have a "girl friend" instead of using a gender nuetral term like "signifigant other" they are trying to marginalize people in same sex relationships. I also don't think that they are saying "I have a GF, stay away gays!" either.

In most cases I suspect you're right - but not all cases. Even then, I don't think people are consciously doing these things. I do think, though, that heterosexual people finding themselves in the unusual situation of not being in the majority sometimes do restate their heterosexuality slightly more overtly than they might do in other settings, where it's taken for granted as a default. I think Disco flagging this up was valid, if a little overstated/poorly worded.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

17:10 / 11.02.06

I think for the majority of hets (heteros? losing track of my shorthand) may find the need to overstate their sexuality when at, say, a gay bar. There is also a percentage that will blend in to a degree, straight women dancing with women, men kissing men, this happens in the bar I used to frequent semi regularly.

The point I am trying to make (poorly) is that whatever group of people anyone identifies with, there will, on some level, always be "the other". Unless you are willing to become "the other", a common way to put yourself on the same level for the sake of community is to announce who you are, but then point out similarities. This can get touchy because there is a fine line between droping the hetero-bomb in a conversation with non-hets and getting hamfisted about it.

17:15 / 11.02.06

I think we're pretty much in agreement there, Elijah. I suppose I'm still thinking of Barbelith as something approximating an online equivalent of the 'gay bar' (I'm aware it's not a straightforward analogy - perhaps a 'mixed' bar) rather than mainstream public space.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

17:18 / 11.02.06

Indeed.

In fact, I would use the bar I mentioned as a good example.

The Pulse was Albuquerque's #1 gay bar for many years.

On Thursday nights it was "goth night", so drew a much more divers crowd then on a Friday night, when the clientel was predominantly gay. Barbelith is kind of a perpetual Thursday night to me, because I am constantly dealing with situations that, on a normal night with my friends, I would not run into.

I kind of like that, really.

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