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The Arctic Monkeys.

 
  

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Alex's Grandma
22:36 / 02.02.06
So, the Arctic Monkeys. I gather that a lot of you like them, you young folk. I'm not sure if I've ever read such a positive set of reviews for anything entertainment-wise, be it a book, a television programme or a cinematic presentation, (and certainly not one of mine, although 'The History Boys' seemed to be quite a hit, as they say these days, the young people,) and especially not for what on the face of it seems to be an album about a fairly run-of-the-mill set of concerns (real tunes about real instruments played on real people etc), since I was last able to go the bathroom, unassisted.

I'm a spectic, I admit, I suppose I always have been, but I can't help feeling that these Arctic Monkeys might just turn out be 'a slash in the pan,' as one of my aunts in Clitheroe used to say about her husband's morning ablutions. And, I'm afraid, his last business endeavour.

But am I missing something? Arctic Monkeys? I'd rather have an Arctic Roll. Possibly with one of the Arctic Monkeys. But never mind about me, I'm just an old woman with a complete set of surgical support stockings and nothing to put in them. I'll be fine, just leave me here to die. I know you want to.

Your thoughts about the Arctic Monkeys here. If you can be bothered. You never call, you know. I only ever see you birthdays and Christmas, and even then it's just for the sherry. You're not in the will, did you know that? I've left it all to Battersea Dogs' Home. Even though I'm allergic. That's how much I hate you.
 
 
Jack Fear
22:54 / 02.02.06
Well looky looky yonder.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
02:41 / 03.02.06
Can this new thread not stand as post-press feeding frenzy incarnation of the old one? They're big, now, aren't they? Assuming this is so, I'll post my input here but I'm happy for it to be moved to the other thread if that's what we decide to do.

My main issue with the Arctic Monkeys situation isn't really an issue with the band at all, per se; it's rather the British music press's unanimous quickness to label them as "the next/the big thing" based on their supposed status as relevant, socially observant cataloguers of the British/Working Class/Northern(and for Northern read underprivileged, a Great Myth today, incidentally, which I'll come to in a moment)/Youth experience of today, which, when we've got Dizee Rascal and the whole fucking grime scene ticking most if not all of those boxes yet not getting and not likely to ever get within a sniff of recognition as "the next/the current big thing", seems to me like a case of favouring the nice white boys with guitars who sing about going down club NME.

In a sense, I think people who still think in terms of "The next really big band" are pretty much behind the curve anyway, but it just angers me that almost the entire music press has taken upon itself to go in the safest direction with barely any criticism.

On to the Northern question, in which I may lose credibility because I'm not entirely sure if my ideas hold water. I'm sure you'll tell me.

Not through any sense of tribal loyalty, but rather through a sense of awareness of the actual situation, as a Northerner, the "this band are salt of the earth Northern boys" element of the press splutter riles me intensely. The press are keen to make out that, by dint of their Northern-ness (something that only a southerner could envisage), the AM are heir to the throne of the Beatles, the Las, Oasis, Mark E. Smith, Ian Curtis, Ian Brown etcetera.

Whether or not you like those artists I've just mentioned isn't the point- I'm not saying "How dare they make out that he's another Ian Curtis". What I'm saying is that it is basically inacurrate to confuse, for example, the vital, fairly working class 70s Manc punk scene, or the vital, fairly working class Madchester scene with the conservative, white, moneyed, middle class Yorkshire (but let's face it, it could just as easily be Sussex) "indie" "scene" of today, of which notably the Arctic Monkeys and the Kaiser Chiefs are part.

I'm not talking about subjective tastes: you can prefer the Kaiser Chiefs to the Buzzcocks if you want, but the scene and the idea space around these two bands is almost totally different, and to say otherwise is basically bad practice- notably because whereas The Smiths, Joy Division, even the Stone Roses were contrarians, defining a space for themselves, the Yorkshire indie scene is basically about middle class kids adopting the current foppish/boho style of, say, The Libertines, becoming more generic, more Southern, running away from the terrible "Scallies" who represent "northern-ness". As a rule of the thumb, for example, no working class people attend Leeds Festival. From the accents and the general mise en scène, one could be in Oslo, New Jersey, Australia- generic, boring rich white rockers.

I'm not holding up Manchester 1977-199? as any more "true" or "authentic" or what have you compared to today's climes- it's all just pop music, kids- but there is definately a far more conservative, conformist (to the global ideal) outlook in the Yorkshire scene, and the level of inclusiveness, and, dare I say it, fun, compared to, say, Factory or the Hacienda is seriouisly lacking.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
02:55 / 03.02.06
Onto the subject of "Ordinary-ness", one of the AM's most feted qualities. Reading an essay by Dick Hedbidge, one of my tutors put forward the idea of the original "punk" thing as an event where all the youth, including the working classes, could now take part in the "radical" musical youth movements previously restricted to the bourgeoise (Pink Floyd). While accepting that this had previously happened before to some, lesser, extent (the Beatles), I think we can draw from that that one of the qualities of, say, Siouxsie & the Banshees, is that it's the extraordinary (cut-ups, bizarre outfits, extreme noise terror) made available to "ordinary" people, thus becoming more credible because it is not limited to only one group.

Whereas the AM praise seems to get lost in the concept of the ordinary person, the ordinary events, and forgets all about the extraordinary, and hence we get an album like the AM's Whatever You Say I Am... in which, from the artwork to the songs, the ordinary and the boring is followed to such a degree as to be banal and, crucially, no fun.
 
 
GogMickGog
08:26 / 03.02.06
The oddest thing about the whole endeavour is how very much the "next best thing" sounds like, uh, the "last big thing". Personally it just seems absurd that 'quirky' guitar pop should be seen as in anyway pushing the boat out when it's a path that has been well trodden many many times before.

Absurdity upon absurdity.
I'm with Alan Bennett- I'd rather have an arctic roll.
 
 
lonely as a cloud...
08:40 / 03.02.06
Can you get Arctic Rolls anymore? I used to love them, haven't seen 'em for sale in ages...
 
From what I've heard of the Arctic Monkeys, they sound like the Libertines with acne. I'm disinclined to hear any more.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
10:10 / 03.02.06
Ice cream wrapped in bread: dis-fucking-gusting.
 
 
Anthony
16:30 / 03.02.06
they're the point at which i completely lose interest in contemporary music. they even force me to re-evaluate my entire perspective on popular music and make me decide that i never liked it anyway because it's predictable, ordinary and moronic. so i'll stick to the things i listen to like free jazz, serialism, microtonal music and lots of other things that no-one likes. rather than have any part in this.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
17:07 / 03.02.06
Or you could have a look at fluxblog for more interesting pop music.
 
 
Char Aina
17:11 / 03.02.06
Dizee Rascal and the whole fucking grime scene ticking most if not all of those boxes yet not getting and not likely to ever get within a sniff of recognition as "the next/the current big thing"

is that really fair?
i seem to remember dizee was touted as the next big thing by a good few people.

didnt he win a mercury?
and wasnt he all over the music press?
 
 
Anthony
18:33 / 03.02.06
they're the point at which i completely lose interest in contemporary music. they even force me to re-evaluate my entire perspective on popular music and make me decide that i never liked it anyway because it's predictable, ordinary and moronic. so i'll stick to the things i listen to like free jazz, serialism, microtonal music and lots of other things that no-one likes. rather than have any part in this.
 
 
Anthony
20:11 / 03.02.06
i didn't post that twice. anyway, i stick by my sentiments and henceforth am only going to listen to microtonal music made by Japanese amputees.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
01:22 / 04.02.06
is that really fair?
i seem to remember dizee was touted as the next big thing by a good few people.

didnt he win a mercury?
and wasnt he all over the music press?


Of Dizee Rascal, maybe that's true, I concede, but the general point is that people have been covering the same territory far better than the AM, and in a far more accessible context, whilst getting none of the praise.

The (perhaps oversimplified) scene I imagine is the British Music Press lying on a purple sofa, in a dressing gown, in a bohemian castle full of Nick Hornby books, with a few Peter Saville posters splashed around the place, dipping his quill and trundling off his gilded opinions.

Outside, people with less money live their lives and invent exciting new kinds of music. There's bangra, drum and bass, hip hop, dance, reggaeton, and all manner of new combinations that relate to and are part of the fabric of real, lived experience yet provide a creative release from the negative and a celebration of the positive. A young woman sings about her boyfriend, for example, or a young man comes up with a piece about how there's pressure on him to join gangs.

The British Music Press doesn't hear this because he's listening to London Calling and wanking over Arena magazine.

After he's finished, he picks up the new demo that he's been sent by some younger versions of himself. The first song starts: "If I go out on the streets, it's proper bad? Because you'll get mugged/Someone I know got mugged, once, a few years ago/So it does happen. Urgh look they're all pregnant. I'm glad I'm at college/We're a hardworking band/I like going to the pub, but you can't go to the Blue Lion because it's full of chavs..."

The British Music Press ejaculates forcefully.
 
 
The Falcon
09:29 / 04.02.06
The Arctic Monkeys are the same thing as Shameless on the telly. 'S alright.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:24 / 04.02.06
That comment suggests that either you haven't seen more than one, or maybe even not a whole, episode of Shameless, Dunc, or I haven't heard as many Artic Monkeys songs as you have, and their range is much broader and their 'social observation much more complex* than has been demonstrated by their singles to date.

*In other words, going beyond "that man's a scumbag".
 
 
Michelle Gale
13:28 / 04.02.06
"like a robot from 1984"!

Voice of a generation!

Because people like.. you know 80's things and tight trousers! Voice of a generation!

Drainpipes are now sold in Debenams!
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:36 / 04.02.06
I actually didn't mind 'I Bet You Look Good On The Dancefloor', because I couldn't tell whether or not it was sincere, and if it is sincere, it seemed to display a generosity of spirit towards other types of music/culture which is, shall we say, not always present in this type of indie rock. There was a moment - around the time they said in an interview that they did not want to become the Kaiser Chiefs - when I thought the cover image of that single was intended to be celebratory, and that they might in factbe the anti-Kilroy Chiefs. And perhaps they still might be. However the subsequent single, the nature of their acclaim, that album cover... I'm not getting that impression any more.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
18:52 / 04.02.06
Hello everyone, Alan here again.

Alex's grandmother is in the kitchen at the moment, brewing a pot of tea (I'd like to kill them all) while I recline here in the living room, nibbling a french fancy - I suppose that sadly, perhaps, my own mother was often cast in this role, also, although she never complained. Too concerned, I suppose, with the vicar's opinion, and what might have been said in the queue at the grocer's, when powdered egg was all they had on offer.

But not me. I'm not like that.

My concern is this; I have been writing pithy, witty material about lives unlived in the North of England for what seems like a thousand f***ing years now - don't think I haven't suffered (I do, though I say so myself, have the sun-kissed tresses of a thirteen year old schoolboy, somewhere in my collection, but... no, slap yourself Alan,stop.)

My concern, to reiterate, is that while I am a national treasure, it's true, Paddington Bear on a couple of downers on a wet Tuesday afternoon, that kind of thing, why am I not more loved? Why them, and not me?

What is it (and never mind the gripes of an older man, one who nevertheless still has lovely hair,) about the Arctic Monkeys that makes their work more popular than mine?

It's no good, I suppose, putting the phenomenon down to the views of a couple of dissipated London journalists, some of whom I count as my very best friends, as I'm sure you can imagine - The general public appear to have bought the Arctic Monkeys LP in droves, as of course is their right I want to shoot all of them and I do have to wonder... why?

Frankie Goes To Holyrood had a good run of it certainly, (I did like that Paul, the dancer,) but they were backed by a decent enough marketing campaign; and even Oasis seemed like brave, comic lads.

The Arctic Monkeys though... I'll admit to being bewlidered, but also open to enlightenment.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
23:29 / 04.02.06
I think it's interesting that a lot of the press has been eager to flag up 70s rude-boy Ska band The Specials in relation to this "social observation" that can supposedly be seen in the KC or AM lyrics. For reference, here's an excerpt from the Specials' Concrete Jungle:

I'm going out tonight
I don't know if I'll be alright
Everyone wants to hurt me
Baby danger in the city

I have to carry a knife
Because there's people threatening my life
I can't dress just the way I want
I'm being chased by the national front


I think a lot of this is about who's doing the observing, and where they're placing the blame.
 
 
Anthony
10:31 / 05.02.06
i rather wish people wouldn't make music about how depressing it is to live in the north of england. i'm accutely enough aware of the fact.
 
 
Anthony
10:33 / 05.02.06
especially if they're just going to sound like Victoria Wood with guitars. And they do. That's the Arctic Monkeys. Victoria Wood. With guitars. Awaiting the inevitable duet. With Victoria Wood.
 
 
The Falcon
13:29 / 06.02.06
I have only seen one ep of Shameless, yeah.

O well.
 
 
Michelle Gale
13:59 / 06.02.06
Perhaps im being rather too harsh,
I think perhaps im basing my opinion on the fact that a very loud man working in my local Oxfam (selling second hand clothes no less) was shouting at a thoughrally disinterested co-worker as to how Artic monkeys are: "fucking amazing".
 
 
Anthony
10:15 / 07.02.06
yeah, you need to kill those people. it's a sign that they're begging to be released from their misery.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
19:35 / 07.02.06
Perhaps im being rather too harsh,
I think perhaps im basing my opinion on the fact that a very loud man working in my local Oxfam (selling second hand clothes no less) was shouting at a thoughrally disinterested co-worker as to how Artic monkeys are: "fucking amazing".


Care to unpack this a bit?
 
 
nighthawk
20:37 / 07.02.06
I think it's interesting that a lot of the press has been eager to flag up 70s rude-boy Ska band The Specials in relation to this "social observation" that can supposedly be seen in the KC or AM lyrics

Could someone expand on that a little? I haven't really heard much by the bands people have been discussing on here recently (Kaiser Chiefs, Artic Monkeys, etc.) I suppose I'm wondering what differentiates them from guitar bands that were praised in a similar way in the 70s and 80s, i.e. bands that were also credited with 'social observation' etc.

People seem to be quite unsympathetic to the content of AM/KC/etc. songs, and I'm wondering if that is something that applies equally to these older bands. And if it isn't, what is different?
 
 
Char Aina
20:41 / 07.02.06
well, i guess the thing is that those bands, although derivative, were a little less derivative and riding the crest of a more recent wave.

these dudes are a wee bit more atavistic than rock bands in the seventies, mostly because its the seventies that a lot of them are throwing back to.

i reckon.
 
 
Michelle Gale
20:55 / 07.02.06
Sorry wasnt very clear, I just meant that there was someone working at an Oxfam near me, whose main reasons for working there appeared to be the fact they sold second hand clothes*, and the fact he could shout about Artic Monkeys in public.

*He was also shouting about how he used to work in a nearby non-charity 2nd hand clothes shop until he was fired last friday.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:26 / 08.02.06
nighthawk - For me, it's the notably reactionary nature of the lyrics to the Kaiser Chiefs' most celebrated song that makes them particularly... off-putting, to phrase it mildly. (It occurs to me that I could almost pull together all my thoughts on 'I Predict A Riot' and do a 'Songs That Made This Country Grate' about it... but no.)

As for bands of an earlier era... Well, I certainly don't think there's any reason why the lyrical content of their songs should necessarily be any better, although they don't motivate me in the same way as the above does (the Kilroy Chiefs are a menace because they are so in touch with the zeitgeist - a band for people who laugh at Vicky Pollard and think the Bluewater hoodie ban was a good idea). For example, 'Too Much Too Young' is up for debate, I think - I've always found "ain't you heard of con-tra-cep-tion?" very condescending/insulting, with a dose of anxiety about the fecundity of the proles, and one can certainly see how this ties in with 'I Predict A Riot'.

I think the interesting thing about 'social observation' is often where the observer is positioned in the narrative - is the 'viewpoint character', as it were, an actual character in the story the song is telling, or is it what the songwriter really feels (maaan)? Of course it's impossible to tell entirely, but sometimes there are hints one way or another. And how one interprets this can determine your opinion of the song. In other words, does "You're married with a kid when you should be having fun... with me" turn 'Too Much Too Young' into a song that's actual about a someone who resents a woman because she won't be with him, and so he is projecting all these specious 'social problems' onto her? Oh yeah, you made a mistake and now you're trapped, I'm sure you don't like your husband really, you'd rather be with me if only you could. If it is, then that redeems the song rather a lot for me - the same argument has been raging about 'Under My Thumb', to name but one song, for many a year.

With the Artic Monkeys, my feeling about their 'social observation', on the strength of 'When The Sun Goes Down', is more simple: that it's just not very well done. "He told Roxanne to put on her light red... 'Cos he's a scumbag don't you know" - I mean, seriously? However I have to confess that the musical construction of that song has grown on me...
 
 
nighthawk
12:20 / 08.02.06
Thankyou, I thought that might be the case. I do think the ambiguities should be brought out though. If people dislike these bands because they sound derivative, then that strikes me as a purely aesthetic judgement - one that has very little to do with content of their songs.

If it is the lyrical content people are objecting too, then I think people could say something more about why they find it so off-putting in these bands, more so (?) than in well-established bands from the 70s-80s. You're right that Too Much Too Young is far from straight-forward, and I'm sure that extends to a great deal of lyrical 'social commentary' from that or any other era.*

I'm also a bit worried because I find it very frustrating when people are dismissive of hip-hop because 'its so misogynistic', or because it 'glorifies crime'. Both are very reductive and shallow approaches to the music. But at the same time, I can't pretend that all (or even most) of the hip-hop I like is straight-forwardly positive and unproblemmatic. How can I be tolerant of this in music I like, while simultaneously criticising other bands on the basis of their lyrics? Especially when the main reason I don't like them is because I just don't like their music.

I think Fly Peco Shaftoe is right to link the antipathy towards KC lyrics to the zeitgeist. Certain attitudes towards particular groups of people that are apparently legitimate and amusing. And I agree that this is all very objectionable and idiotic, although I didn't connect the KCs with this by hearing their songs (I haven't really listened to them - it was more to do with the coverage they received in the press). But at the same time I'm sure there are plenty of people who have grown up in environments very different from mine (white middle class suburbia) who have similar problems with e.g. hip-hop artists and their coverage in the media.

I guess my point is that its a good idea to separate aesthetic judgements about music (books, films, etc) from moral ones (its certainly interesting to assess the degree to which this is in fact possible). That way we can talk about the musical merits of these bands (whatever they may be - and there must surely be some to account for their popularity?) separately from the content of their songs, which are certainly worth exploring in their own right.

* I remember some old threads about this sort of thing. One about misshapes by Pulp? In fact it might be part of the KC thread Fly Peco Shaftoe linked too. And I know ze's said plenty about people's attitudes to mainstream hip-hop.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:37 / 08.02.06
Could someone expand on that a little? I haven't really heard much by the bands people have been discussing on here recently (Kaiser Chiefs, Artic Monkeys, etc.) I suppose I'm wondering what differentiates them from guitar bands that were praised in a similar way in the 70s and 80s, i.e. bands that were also credited with 'social observation' etc.

See flyboy's answer- think he's said it all.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:50 / 08.02.06
I once tried to tabulate/formulate the dilemma nighthawk alludes to, and came up with something like:

1. Music you like + lyrical content you agree with or at least don't object to

(is preferable to)

2. Music you like + problematic lyrics

(which in turn is preferable to)

3. Music you don't like + lyrical content you agree with or at least don't object to

(which is not as bad as)

4. Music you don't like + probematic lyrics

Although 1 & 2 might sometimes shift places, as indeed might 3 & 4, because sometimes music can be so good or bad on an aesthetic level that it outweights everything else. Mind you, personally I also believe that this is unlikely to happen very often - cf Keats.
 
 
nighthawk
16:24 / 09.02.06
*threadrot*

I'm not completely happy with this, but I think part of the difference is that I'm fully aware that there's plenty that's problemmatic with the hip-hop I like, whereas a lot of people I've spoken to don't immediately see that there's anything wrong with e.g. the sentiments expressed in 'I predict a riot.'
 
 
Anthony
11:59 / 11.02.06
As for bands of an earlier era... Well, I certainly don't think there's any reason why the lyrical content of their songs should necessarily be any better, although they don't motivate me in the same way as the above does (the Kilroy Chiefs are a menace because they are so in touch with the zeitgeist - a band for people who laugh at Vicky Pollard and think the Bluewater hoodie ban was a good idea). For example, 'Too Much Too Young' is up for debate, I think - I've always found "ain't you heard of con-tra-cep-tion?" very condescending/insulting, with a dose of anxiety about the fecundity of the proles, and one can certainly see how this ties in with 'I Predict A Riot'.


i guess you never had the honour of having a glass bottle thrown at you, smashing on impact on the back of your neck for the crime of having long hair & looking gay. (apparently).

it makes me sick how people can sit there from an infinitely sheltered and removed bourgeois politically correct perspective lamenting society's prejudice against its underclass.
 
 
Anthony
12:07 / 11.02.06
do you even know, have any inclination whatsoever how bad some of the council estates in this country are?
 
  

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