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Soul retrieval and mental health

 
  

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Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:27 / 30.01.06
This is a bit personal and I feel very awkward about putting it out here, but here goes.

Recently I've been actively looking into magic and spirit-work as a way to tackle my problems with long-term clinical depression. Something that came to me as I analyzed the condition was that sufferers tend to frame the experience in terms of lack (rather than in terms of some intrusive force, say; although that image does crop up, it's rarer). They'll say that they've lost their zest for life, that they have no energy, that they feel hollow or dead inside.

This resonated strongly with my own experience. There's a remarkably strong impression of lacking something vital--some major source of power and strength, a motivating spark. This naturally lead to the idea of soul retrival, a shamanic technique which is based on the idea of recovering some fragment of a person's essential being that has been lost, abandoned, stolen or given away. It seems as if this could be a very powerful technique for addressing this kind of problem.

However, I have only the most basic grasp of what the technique entails, let alone whether it's really suitable for dealing with mental health needs. I'm therefore looking for input from more expert people.
 
 
Seth
21:19 / 30.01.06
I've had a couple of experiences that I would describe as soul retrievals, and while I’ve experienced the technique and understand a fair bit about how it works I’ve never actually performed one. I’d be happy to answer any questions from what little I know, but know that you'd be getting the experiential input from someone who’s been on the client side, and the theoretical stuff cobbled together from book learning and journey work of types other than soul retrieval. But if I don’t know I won’t bluff.

These are the kinds of threads for which I wish Wyrd and good old Lothar Tuppan were still around.
 
 
paw
22:13 / 30.01.06
i found the following book helpful mordant-

Mending The Past and Healing The Future with Soul Retrieval by Alberto Villoldo.
 
 
*
22:30 / 30.01.06
Mordant, have you asked Raven yet?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:45 / 30.01.06
I don't really know RK personally--we've exchanged a couple of emails, but I hardly like to bother him with this. We do post to one of the same lists and he's been very supportive in the past when I've gone there with questions, so I'll probably run this by them too.
 
 
*
00:20 / 31.01.06
That's what I was thinking. I'm sure he would at least know some resources to point you towards; if not himself then someone else on the list.
 
 
Claris Dancers
16:13 / 01.02.06
I can reccomend this book:
Soul Retrieval: Mending the Fragmented Self Through Shamanic Practice by Sandra Ingerman

From what i remember it tends to be a bit fluffy, but it has good information.

Also i'll relate an experience...
Over the holidays, my wife and i were visiting my sister and her kids. The kids were sick, but apparently over it at that point. Two days later my wife and i both leave our respective work places early and start puking up a storm all day. Lousy kids, why are kid sicknesses always the worst? Anyway, after a horrible day we both try to get to sleep for the night. I woke up once around midnight to throw up again, went back to bed, and had the most amazing dream. I was gathering parts for... something. i had no idea what it was, but i would go get a part from somewhere, come back to wherever i started and put it in place. I didnt know what "in place" meant, i just knew that i did it. Then i woke up, said halfasleep to myself, "well, better get back to it," and fell asleep again to get another part. This happened about 4 or 5 times, before i somehow knew i was done. then i said, now what? and i answered, "well, start it up!" I woke up feeling quite abit better and got immensely better throughout the day. By that night i was eating mostly normally again and the day after i was perfectly fine. My wife was feeling the effects of it for almost a week. My parents (who were also with the kids) also got sick from them and felt the effects for about a week too. Upon thinking about it afterward, it made sense to me that i was doing almost unconscious soul retrieval on myself somehow, and it was damn cool.

So that's my experience with soul retrieval. I guess i didnt really have a point with the story, i just wanted to share it with someone.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:10 / 02.02.06
Recognising the sickness as part of the healing process seems to be the point of your story, rather than trying to cure it or deny the sickness, it is a part of the healing. There is no sense of wellness without the sense of sickness first, a condition of recovery. Denying the sickness and cause of the sickness prolongs the agony of being ill, welcome the sickness as a partner to healing.

The sickness isnt an enemy or intrusion but part of the self left unrecognised, potential energy for change and new growth, the energy may seem unfamiliar at first but once explored it becomes a wound in transition to closing, rather than remaining open for fear of the recognition of the pain.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:28 / 04.02.06
I wish Wyrd and good old Lothar Tuppan were still around.

Oh yeah. *sigh*
 
 
Seth
12:24 / 04.02.06
I'll happily second the recommendation for the Ingerman book mentioned above. I read it a few years ago and it's generally excellent, she has a lot of experience and there are some occasionally fascinating diversions. Plus lots of accounts to go on.

In many ways conducting a soul retrieval requires not so much a high level of power or skill as it does the most thorough and wise ethical approach (although I’m not suggesting that you don’t need power and skill – you need a lot). You might have some success in approach it as though it were a manner of mores and etiquette, but in the long term this has to be internalised into a loving and wise system, that also has the strength to be firm and know which battles to fight. If you go with any practitioner to conduct your soul retrieval make sure they can be trusted. Make sure they’re good hearted.

Soul retrieval is a process of permissions, cautious approaches and exceptional manners. You negotiate, you seek consent, you bargain. You attempt to come at all matters with a sense of honesty, and if you’re going to take a risk or gamble you need to have enough of a sense of the impact of what you’re doing to respect the ecology of the situation, while knowing that it’s rare that you can completely know an entire situation. And if you choose to fight you need to know exactly why you’re doing it and what the objective is, and what the side effects of that fight might be.

Fragmented and lost soul parts can sometimes come back of their own accord. Sometimes they might need reassurance. Sometimes they will refuse to come back, as they prefer where they are. They might decide that they will come back based on conditions that they set, and will only reintegrate when changes are made to your life. They might have chosen to come back a long time ago and become lost, and so the journey back might be crucial to their restoration. Often these subtleties are exactly why having a trained and experienced practitioner is required. What happens when a fragmented part of yourself refuses to speak to you personally? You may require an advocate.

Sometimes it is possible to do this work yourself. Sometimes in the course of examining and changing your life you will unwittingly set the conditions that lead to the return of the soul fragment, and it will return of its own accord when the time is right. You might find a lot of useful progress can be made yourself in pursuing it through your own skill, but I’d definitely err on the side of having an experienced practioner at least as a sounding board or consultant.

There’s a lot about soul retrieval that reminds me of parts therapy (I may have some NLP resources on this somewhere). From my own experience when the self fragments it can be difficult to register to begin with, as each individual part may seem to be a fully functioning personality in its own right and will have as diverse an array of moods and aspects as any person you might know. Just because you consciously characterise a lost part of yourself as angry doesn’t mean it will simplistically always show up as angry when you encounter it, as though it were Grumpy Dwarf. You might find your angry manifesting in sadness, or in pain, or in a sense of principles and righteousness, or in an apparently calm manner. The part will likely reflect the whole but may have leanings in one or more directions. This is another reason to have someone else do the work for you: things aren’t necessarily what they seem, and we all have our own preconceptions of ourselves born out of the assumptions about what we think we know of ourselves. An external perspective may not be fooled as easily.

And then there are the strange beasties, other personalities/entities and landscapes/settings you might come across during the work, whether you believe these things are yet more parts of yourself or possibly things outside yourself, or on the periphery where you border with the rest of what’s outside you. This is a shifting world of hidden meanings and potentially deliberate obfuscation, and you’ll need all your wits, wisdom and discernment about you.

That’s a woefully inadequate primer to this area from my own experience and what little I’ve been able to piece together from other people I’ve observed and accounts and ideas I’ve read. At no point is it necessarily declaring that soul retrieval or the shamanic process is right for you and your situation, and at no point do I want to predispose you to think that your possible retrieval may go down any of the paths I’ve mentioned, as it could be remarkably different again from anything above. I think its an amazing technique accompanied by principles that you should live your life by regardless of whether your in an ecstatic state or not, and that if it is a metaphor that allows a user interface to be built on top of the machine code of our unfathomable psychological depths then it often seems to be a wholly beautiful, resonant and penetrating metaphor.
 
 
hashmal
18:26 / 04.02.06
I also suffer from a similar afflication and have also come to similar conclusions regarding the parallels with 'soul loss' etc in various traditions. However, I have always been quite fond of Foucault's Nietzschean critique of the 'new age' in that he emphasised that we should not be attempting to uncover/recover some hidden substance that can heal and revive, but that we should be concerned with cultivating a revitalising component to ourselves, a 'soul' so to speak. However, even given this point of view I believe that work should still be undertaken to find that part of us that has become damaged and/or lost. Otherwise we run the risk of creating an artificial construct and not an organic one (there are parallels here with Nietzsche's two forms of self-creation, Apollonian and Dionysian). Once our damaged/lost 'soul' is found we need to cultivate and nourish it to bring it back to health. Merely locating it is not enough.
 
 
Wyrd
00:14 / 19.02.06
OK, soul retrieval...

I've done them, and had them done.

My worldview has changed from the "classic" shamanic model that is described by the followers of Michael Harner - Ingerman was taught by Harner if my memory is correct. Ingerman's book is pretty good and covers the basics.

How I would describe "soul fragmentation" is somewhat different.

I must admit now that I'm going to use the term "energy" here, and while I have a dislike of fuzzy terminology there is no better way for me to describe it.

When you are born you are an intact human being with an intact energetic system. You are whole.

Over the course of your life you can encounter various traumatic events that shatter that wholeness. Some people are lucky and have a great upbringing, and a good home, and have relatively few bad things happen to them.

Sometimes, when a terrible event happens part of us splits off from the whole in order to protect, as much as possible, what's left. It's a sacrifice for the greater good. Often, memories are taken away with the energetic fragment. It's a protective mechanism. People often assume that it has to be very serious problems, but it varies from person to person. What shatters one person, is shrugged off by another. Everyone has different tolerances.

Often, these pieces return on their own, once the person has recovered. Sometimes they don't.

Ingerman, et. al describe different ways to "journey" to this soul fragment and entreat it to return to the whole. There can be resistance, but if it is time for the part to come back then it can be persuaded to do so. The Ingerman model tends to treat the fragment a bit like its own person, but ultimately it's about integration. You are attempting to become whole again (or, as whole as possible).

Energetic integrity is a great protection against illness, and should be every person's goal. The more whole you are the more you can withstand life and be healthy.

Sometimes people feel numb after a trauma, and that is the emotional defensive mechanism working, but it can also be because your energetic body has taken a hammering. That's why people often talk about something being missing, or feeling empty, etc. Literally, they are missing part of their energetic body.

Like a magnet, the whole yearns for the part that's missing, and they exert a pull on each other.

What an experienced shamanic practitioner does is follow the link to where the part exists, brings it back, and reunites it with the whole. There are lots of models you can use to do this, and Ingerman's book is one approach.

There are loads of different permutations on this, and a shamanic worker never quite knows what s/he is getting into when s/he begins. Usually, you have a heads up from your spiritual ally, but sometimes there can be a fight.

You see, there's also soul theft. This is where the part is stolen. It can be stolen by a person (often unconsciously). A somewhat common situation is after a bad break-up of a relationship. One person literally wants to hold onto a part of a person, and thus takes a chunk with them when s/he goes. This usually means that the shamanic worker has to persuade the thief to give up the part, or else to force him/her to do so. This can become nasty.

This happens because when you are in an intimate relationship with another person your boundaries are fluid. It's very possible for theft to occur. Especially if there is grief, rage, guilt, etc. at play.

Other entities can also take a piece from a person, and that's a kettle of rats that requires a different tack.

Shamanic work can be hard, scary, and dangerous. I cannot emphasise this point enough.

If someone is interested in knowing if this is an area they should investigate then they could try some kind of divination to check. Perhaps from someone they trust, as it's hard to be objective about yourself.

There are loads of good shamanic workers out there now if anyone wants to contact one.

I should point out that anyone who wants another route should seriously investigate body work. By that I mean T'ai Chi, Yoga, Dancing, etc. Anything that stretches and moves the body.

Personally, I believe that energy fragmentation can be tied into the concept of "body armour" (a la Wilhelm Reich). It's not unusual to burst out crying if you manipulate your body in a certain way. We store a lot of memory in our bodies. By becoming more active and supple we can release these blockages.

There you go. I hope that's not snoring I hear from the Peanut Gallery!
 
 
MrCoffeeBean
02:27 / 19.02.06
you people proberly gonn ahte me this time too but i dont care because this is something thats fucking close to me. I have also been fighting clinic depression for at least ten years. well it sten years since i first enede up in a institution... an dto start with i fucking lov eall the medications and theraphy i hav ebeen given, without it i would proberly hav ebeen fucking dead. Prozac is fucking great!

Anyway, it was just recently i realy realized stuff. Only when i gave up th eidea of "the soul", "The true self", or the idead of a Freudian self. i started to feel realy free. I had to give up the idead of a self what so ever. Only when i realized its all fiction i felt free to start rebuilding mydlef from scratch. The idea of noting is true, everything can be rebuilt just opend up everything. Then i could realy ask myself why do i feel bad about this? or Whay cant i let this go? or questions like that. I coul dfinaly giv eup all those strange obsessionsa and start without them. ther eisnt such a thing as a defenite "you". its all fictiuon and only you hav eth eability to rewrite youre self as you like.
That swhat i am doing right now. But i t do take the help of a theraphy group and medications but if its thats what its need. Great. I fucking love prozac.
 
 
MrCoffeeBean
02:29 / 19.02.06
and reading Jean Paul Sartres philosphy helped alot. Hes fucking brilliant.
 
 
Wyrd
09:15 / 19.02.06
Since Mordant is a very capable person - from what I've seen on this board - I just discussed soul retrieval as he asked.

Mr. CoffeeBean brings up an important point, which is that anyone suffering from clinical depression should not dismiss the conventional route for treatment.

I'm all in favour of therapy, and even (gasp!) medication in the right situation. Why throw out any tool if it will help?

Often, proper medication will get a person into a stable situation where they can look for other methods to help deal with their problems.

I hope by omission I didn't imply otherwise.
 
 
illmatic
13:44 / 19.02.06
(self pimpage - anyone who wants to see a copy of the talk I gave on Wilhelm Reich send me a PM with an email).
 
 
grant
19:54 / 20.02.06
(Is it really long? If not, just stick it in the Lab! I wanna read it in public!)
 
 
illmatic
20:06 / 20.02.06
It's 6000 words, is that too long? Plus a bit of it is quite personal...

(edited to add: I've decided I'm going to keep it off the board for various reasons. Too long etc and I may do something with it in the future)
 
 
Ganesh
20:55 / 20.02.06
It is excellent. Near-terminal laziness has delayed me getting back to Illmatic to say this in detail.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
02:03 / 21.02.06
(Seth, quick! Now wish for a million quid!)

Thanks for the input, all. And yes, the point above regarding seeking professional medical help before delving into alternative therapies is well-made.
 
 
EmberLeo
20:25 / 10.12.06
I'm in the process of reading Soul Retrieval by Sandra Ingerman right now because I've been getting heavy pings for some time that I need to learn a kind of soul retrieval.

I'd love to hear more personal experiences, if folks have them. I understand the concept pretty well.

--Ember--
 
 
Ticker
12:59 / 11.12.06
I've been doing work with Ordeals to renegotiate the forms of trauma and to remove the energetic blocks. As a side note there's some resonace with how I'm approaching it and Reich's work.....

anyhow, I've found that often when the energetic injury is shifted there can be a 'snap' affect and the missing pieces flow back in. Up thread it's mentioned that the parts wish to return to a state of wholeness and I've found this to be true. The technique of negotiating the original site of trauma is very personal and injury specific. Most of the work I've done is on myself though I have found that in many cases other people I've worked with just needed assistence to allow the return of cohesion. Their energetic body knew how to be whole it just needed a spare hand/ lended energy to achieve it.

I have some concern with the language around this as I'm not sure I'd call everything that is returning soul specificly but rather the energetic body returning to fill in gaps. While I've dealt with some severe injuries of the soul and found it in a lessened state I never had the sense of any of it missing, where I have felt missing chunks of energy. This may just be a matter of my personal terminology being a bit different from other folks. The soul felt malnourished or weak in relation to the energetic loss. for myself I contrast this with the few thankfully rare occassions when I've encountered people who were missing either large pieces of their soul or it entirely, experiences which I found to be highly disturbing and vastly different. IMO there is a distinction between the two types of damage and one is much more common than the other.

the process I've worked with has been guided by the subconscious intuitive wisdom of the deeper self and body work based on the premise that the self wishes to be whole. Divination has aided ritually removing conscious clinging to the current form and allowing the body, and through it the energetic self, to return to the point of initial injury. When the initial injury/trauma is revisited often the block can flow out if the self can be convinced it is now safe. As the missing energy or hole is filled there is usually a rather intense emotional reaction. I've found that the mental process of figuring it all out can be rather slower than the healing and even months can pass before the conscious self is fully aware of what has healed.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
13:25 / 11.12.06
Apologies if this is threadrot - but I have a question about this phenomenon you here call soul retrieval.
I'm wondering if this is an analogy to the raising of the shards of qlippoth that occurs in for example Chabad Hasid mysticism? If anyone has experience or knowledge enough to related these two phenomena, I'd be very interested to hear their views.
Admittedly the qlippoth are strictly speaking not part of the individual soul - instead shards of the three first sephira that shattered in the act of creation, but tikkun as a repair of the spiritual balance of the world by way of freeing the light trapped in the material world, to me at least, suggests a common mechanism, reasoning or technique?

I'm asking as a non-practitioner of either shamanism or Kabbalah - a theorist rather (did my BA in esoteric/apophatic theology & anthropology). I've fooled around tho... if that makes any difference..
 
 
Ticker
13:54 / 11.12.06
that maybe the best BA I've ever heard of....
 
 
Quantum
14:06 / 11.12.06
That *is* the best BA I've ever heard of. I'm not familiar enough with tikkun/Tikkun Olam to comment, could you tell us more?
 
 
Closed for Business Time
14:29 / 11.12.06
Yeah, not to brag, but it was a sweet time at the uni awrite! I think I was the only one to do the course at the time, and the lecturer was away the whole time doing studies in Iran, so I had no lectures (bad) and noone to talk to (worse). To top it off, he'd gone slightly mental doing his doctorate (on Advaita Vedanta I seem to remember). Still, it was fun - reading loads of Eckhart, Rumi, Ibn Arabi, Upanishads, Taoist texts - pretty eclectic for such a specialised subject. A bit of trance-work for the empirical side of things - no-mind, wu wei and such.

Anyway - I'll be more than happy to get back to this topic later... Too much work and too little energy to multitask.
So, please bear with me. I might branch this out into another thread.. Opinions on that?
 
 
electric monk
15:12 / 11.12.06
A bit on tikkun olam from wikipedia:

"Lurianic kabbalah holds that the very creation of the universe by God was unstable, and that the early universe, represented by a pottery vessel, could not hold the holy light of God (the Ein Sof or infinite). In this view, the original form of the universe shattered in shards; the universe that we encounter today is thus literally broken, and in need of repair. According to this belief, the practice of following halakha (Jewish religious law) is in order that one can repair the tattered shards of creation through their deeds. Therefore, through each fulfillment of a commanded deed (mitzvah) the kabbalists believe, a Jew performs an act of tikkun olam, gradually returning the universe to its form as God originally intended, and making humankind a partner in God's creation."

It does sound similar, and I have to wonder if there's a microcosm/macrocosm relationship between the two. Veddy interesting, LosMontes. Fill us in when you can. Maybe in a new thread.
 
 
EmberLeo
20:06 / 11.12.06
Hmm, I know a couple people who are versed enough in both Shamanism and Kaballah that they might be able to comment on that. I'll see if I can get input from them.

--Ember--
 
 
EmberLeo
20:48 / 11.12.06
Since I am discussing this book in depth elsewhere, I have recorded my notes on Chapter 1 for their interest. Should I post them here as well, or just post them to my LJ and provide a link, or what?

--Ember--
 
 
Closed for Business Time
14:01 / 13.12.06
Hey, Ember, any luck with your friends the shamano-qblsts? I promise to come back to the raising of the shards, Chabad Hasid theme a little later. Only problem is most of my literature on the subject currently resides in a cardboard box at my parents', some 2000 miles away... If I've got any room I'll haul it back to London after Yule. Of course there's stuff on t'interweb, but there's only so much you can find that isn't of dubious value. I'm talking in terms of academic material here, not referring to practitioners sites and such.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:56 / 13.12.06
Keep a dream journal, dreams are shards of light within the soul.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:58 / 13.12.06
Well yeah, actually I do that and have done for years. Still mad, thanks.
 
 
Unconditional Love
17:01 / 13.12.06
As am i, but i do think it helps give a glimpse into whats going on in the soul department of the human super store.
 
 
Ticker
17:31 / 13.12.06
not to appear all pro-insanity on you MC, but is the issue being mad or some concrete tangible functionality issues?

to be clear if you lump it all in together it's less helpful than if you say you want to deal with depression specificly. Or a range of phobias. Being broken in certain ways isn't about being comfortable staying broken but finding ways to improve the overall state of functionality. Being a SW is often about being mad but not automatically about being unhappy, if you follow me.

In terms of this discussion knowing what pieces are missing starts with examing the symptoms of the injury and tracing the history. Sometimes this is done through divination or a skilled healer can scan the energetic body for holes and blocks. Some folks believe where the holes are relates to what kind of injury/theft occured. This mapping process is a good place to start.
 
 
EmberLeo
07:52 / 14.12.06
xk: the second part of what you said sounded really useful, but I think I'm missing some back info that you're responding to? Either that or I need more sleep before I come back to this thread...

LeMontes: I'm sorry, I haven't seen 'em in person, so I should email her, I suppose. Only I'm not sure how exactly to articulate the question you're trying to ask. Can you give me a sentence or two to pass along via Email?

--Ember--
 
  

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