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"Free Speech" and "Telling Lies"

 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:52 / 23.01.06
I'm sure you all know the score by now, but here's an example of the sort of opinion that this thread is aimed at correcting:

"Those Asians (insert Ethnic group of choice. Note that this speaker will probably refer to them as e.g. P****) should all be deported, they all support terrorism and they get loads of privileges that white people don't get. Of course, some people will try and tell me that's racist, but you can't stop me because of free speech."

Now, we all know- hopefully- that this person is not only spouting hateful lies, but quite often is labouring under the impression that these are true. This person is deluded. Thus, do you think it can be said that their speech is not free at all?

For example, if I was to say "The sky is green", something equally untrue, I would be laughed at for trying to support that by claimimng "free speech".
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
17:52 / 23.01.06
interesting thread LR.

I found that "freedom of speech" has often been equivocated as "freedom to spout opinion."

everyone is free to spout their opinions. It's up to us to seperate the nonsense from the sense and act accordingly. I don't think that racist (to cite the example) opinions need to be silenced so much as addressed (where possible).

however, where this applies to public figures (ie political prosthelitizing), is there a greater imperative to accuracy? Can we silence the out-and-out chronic liars? If so, what is the future of marketing and advertising?

seriously. Check and see what a "natural flavour" is considered to be (it ain't all natural). When was the last time something labelled as "home made" was made in someone's home (outside of reheating it from a can)?

--not jack

what's on your mind, Legba?

I think that there's a great enough fear of being incorrect that stifles much expression.
 
 
Not in the Face
06:47 / 24.01.06
I don't think that racist (to cite the example) opinions need to be silenced so much as addressed (where possible)

I would agree except we come back to the old saw of who is then able to address the opinions? Is it left to the abused party in question and doesn't that take away from their other freedoms, such as not having to spend all their energy defending themselves from jackasses?

However I think Legba was actually questioning whether someone who is deluded in some fashion and whose claims were based around that delusion could be said to be engaging in free speech? iS their world view really 'free' or is it in fact constrained? (or do I have thw wrong end of the stick?)

I suppose that one of the assumptions of free speech is that it involves dialogue on some level and from that point of view the deluded person isn't engaging in free speech as they are unlikely to want to listen to the opposing point of view.

I would suspect that this view would be too subjective though and it would come back to how far that person's views then impinged on the freedom and health of others. For instance claiming the sky is green may be protected under free speech but may also result in being locked away in a mental health facility under the assumption that someone with such a serious delusion is likely to hold other delusions that will be of direct harm to themselves or others. I think the same could be said of hate speech - that the most serious proponents - as opposed to perhaps the misinformed - who really believe their views could be considered to be mentally ill to some degree.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
16:21 / 24.01.06
However I think Legba was actually questioning whether someone who is deluded in some fashion and whose claims were based around that delusion could be said to be engaging in free speech? iS their world view really 'free' or is it in fact constrained? (or do I have thw wrong end of the stick?)

Yeah, that's pretty much on the money. I'm thinking about this as something to use in debates, when the inevitable "Ah but...Freedom Of Speech!" comes up.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
18:53 / 24.01.06
i see...

that's pretty sticky, isn't it.

all thoughts are constrained as soon as we represent them with words, whether spoken or written...

how would you determine what might be opinion expressed out of a misplaced sense of veracity?

legba, what are you getting at, exactly? I'm intrigued yet confused.

--not jack
 
 
SMS
21:49 / 24.01.06
Freedom is used in different senses. Speech wrapped in sin is not truly free because it is already bound, and so we should always strive against such speech for our own sakes. However, the freedom of speech that we conceive of as a right is a freedom that can be recognized publicly. It is a right insofar as we are not permitted to forcibly restrain others from exercising it. Neither of these senses really applies to the following use of free speech:

"Asians are all trash. You can call me racist, but I have free speech."

Calling someone a racist is not really forcibly restraining that speech. Rather, it is exercising one's own speech. However, the fact that the racist in question is already bound by hir speech does not imply that forcible restraint is now permitted. The racist's use of the term "free speech" appears, actually, to mean "an opinion which cannot be challenged in any way" which is rubbish.

Strict lies are different. But we could consider a progression of statements that I think moves from clearly beyond the bounds of (what ought to be) protected speech to clearly within those bounds.

1. Johnny Carson was a murderer.
2. The Asians of East London are aiding and abetting known terrorists.
3. All these Asians moving into town are helping terrorists.
4. Asians are getting privileges they don't deserve.

Of course, actual incitement to violence should not be protected under free speech, and this, I am sure, depends largely on the context and the likely way that the statement can be construed.

Here's a problem: Freedom of speech does not apply in certain situations where the speech causes harm (such as slander or incitement to violence). However, sometimes psychological harm is included (such as harassment). But just about every kind of political speech has the potential to cause harm. So in saying either, "cutting funding for education will be beneficial to this nation," or "raising funding for education will be beneficial to this nation," presumably one of these is wrong (perhaps even both) but both can be influential with regard to whether funding actually is increased or decreased. Thus, the entire nation may be harmed because enough people made such statements. But claiming that one of these ought to be forbidden under the law is absolutely absurd and quite dangerous. What if the person who wants to cut funding for education can be shown to have had a disfunctional childhood that has led him to regard children rather poorly? In this sense, his judgment is possibly not functioning optimally, and it may be by his own choice that he ignores data pointing to the contrary. Thus, calling it a lie (and a lie he tells himself as well) is not entirely inaccurate.

And what of psychological harm on a mass scale? What if a lot of people find every word Howard Stern says to be deeply, deeply troubling (a harm in itself)? What if they even think that it is a sign of Mr Stern's excessive sense of anger, and believe that this kind of anger (if it were to spread) would be detrimental to the nation in the following ways:
1. It will produce a society of people who judge irrationally and look to blame others for their problems (maybe other races?)
2. It will increase violent tendencies (it's reasonable to believe that anger would do this, I think).
Would that be justification for restricting the speech?
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
23:37 / 24.01.06
an interesting series of points...

at what point do we take responsibility, as an audience, for ourselves? attending an event where a speaker incites the audience to violence is one thing.

it is still up to each individual to decide to commit said violence or not, or even support the group at all, or not.

this is by no means black and white, as inflammatory rhetoric can push buttons that fire up a sense of righteous indignation.

yet, they're still our buttons, aren't they?

on one hand, the freedom of speech should be limitless, that we know who's got what to say, instead of it being kept hidden

on the other, there are instances of using words to harm others (the classic yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre when there is none), to humiliate others, to rob, cheat and use others, which all-in-all is harmful.

in the latter cases, what should be the recourse for extralegal harmful use of speech?

--not jack
 
  
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