BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Technomagick?

 
  

Page: (1)2

 
 
Trijhaos
09:46 / 09.02.02
I know this has been asked before, but I can't find the thread. How come magick and technology haven't been married in an unholy union? Is it like the reason they give in the game Arcanum, where magick and tech just don't mix? The only real info I found about technomagick was here which talks about the construction of a spirit pistol. The rest of the info I found seemed to deal with Mage: The Ascension.
 
 
Molly Shortcake
09:46 / 09.02.02
Cool. Just like Phantasy Star.
 
 
klint
09:46 / 09.02.02
[B][/B] quote: How come magick and technology haven't been married in an unholy union

Who's to say they haven't?
 
 
netbanshee
09:46 / 09.02.02
...well I've found magic in technology...its been the basis for me to actually consider it in more of a serious notion. Since technology offers new possibilities to connect with knowledge and life, I find it to be very interesting. It seems to have similar qualities to many of the new emerging concepts that we may encounter in our daily lives. Excuse me as I prattle on in my drunken demeanor...
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
09:46 / 09.02.02
Magick is mental technology.
Computers are very compatable with magick. Take the standard 4 weapons of ritual magick wand, sword, cup and pentacle. The computer components can represent them. The mouse is the wand, you push buttons to indicate your will. The keyboard is your sword you use it to enter analysis (the breaking apart of ideas). The Screen is your cup the tool of perception. The Hard disk is your Pentacle it contains all the element in your worldview/system.

[ 09-02-2002: Message edited by: fenris23 ]
 
 
cusm
20:56 / 09.02.02
Actually, I sometimes find circuit patterns and the like useful for energy visualizations. As well, terminals are a useful metaphore for connection to an energy matrix for making modifications or changing settings on it later after it is cast. Technological ideas work well in magic, as they are rules and systems easily understood to work. So, those natural laws can be put to use.

On the other approach, physical items of technology can take well to animistic endowments, such as naming your car, giving it attributes, and getting to know its "spirit". One can work some degree of technomancy in that respect with machines, especially if you don't understand how they work well inside.

Its all in how you use it
 
 
Trijhaos
09:23 / 10.02.02
Awhile ago, while working on a program for class, I started thinking about servitors and how they are also "programmed", and thought it would be an interesting project to build a computerized servitor. Instead of having a physical basis, there could be a front-end that could look like what your imagined image of it is. Of course, I snapped back to reality and realized it would be a bit out of my league right now and as much as I hate to admit it, I'm a sub-par programmer at best at this point in time, so I've shelved the idea.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
09:23 / 10.02.02
Actually, that's how I explain the workings of my computer. Magic. The same goes for the ATM and most other technology. It's that or little men inside doing things...
 
 
Rev. Wright
09:23 / 10.02.02
Technology and magick:

Apply the esoteric > mathematical/technical use of; sacred geometry, numerology, gnosis, crystals, biomass energy conduction etc

Sony research into psychic abilities, and possible attempts at augmentation devices. Sony Telepathy Helm (c)?
 
 
fluid_state
23:46 / 10.02.02
I had wanted to build a servitor in flash; incorporating random generation algorithims that would manipulate text and images for divinatory effect. i built a visual representation for it, but have yet to do the backend (the functional)... right now it just broadcasts sigils randomly (with strobing visual FX). Its upgrade schedule is currently on a full-moon timer (once a month, an improvement... or so I plan).
 
 
Random?
01:37 / 11.02.02
you;d have to figure. any sort of electronic device that monitors any sory of bio feedback and or amplifies such things could be very useful in magick. think about a submersive 3d virtual reality set upset up to cast spells in.
 
 
Dimensional Fractal Nightmare
03:46 / 11.02.02
Magick and technology seemed to mix when humankind developed so much dependence from the technology.

I view magick as a inner force in each of us, but also existing in all reality and it talks to every one of the creatures of this world, some people choice to talk with magick through technology, just as the ancient talked to it through the woods and the deserts... Just my thoughs anyway...
 
 
Psyche
10:24 / 11.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Trijhaos:
I know this has been asked before, but I can't find the thread. How come magick and technology haven't been married in an unholy union? Is it like the reason they give in the game Arcanum, where magick and tech just don't mix? The only real info I found about technomagick was here which talks about the construction of a spirit pistol. The rest of the info I found seemed to deal with Mage: The Ascension.


Well, I've turned up a couple pages for you regarding the subject:

http://www.chaosmagic.com/message/archives/technomagick.html

http://www.mants-lair.org.uk/Mage/technomagick.htm

I was surprised to find so little, since it is a subject that comes up occasionally on mailing lists and the like.

I'll try and see what else I can find.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
18:49 / 11.02.02
Well I have a couple more links for technomagick.
<quibble>Hey psyche the second link you have is for a Roleplaying game</quibble>
http://www.yarrowstalk.org/ is a computerized yarrowstalk I Ching system, uses chaos math and probability.

http://www.fused.com/trap14/ is a computer magick site.

Automated servitor front end... I think I'll try that.
 
 
the Fool
22:15 / 11.02.02
I like the idea of technoshamanism, Urban totems and the like. I've had some success with Ixat - the spirit of taxis, but I'm beginning to suspect "he's" not a very nice spirit, and is really only good for getting from place to place, his information is dodgy at best...

oh and I completely agree with the whole technology IS magic angle. Think about the whole internet thing. Instant global communication, virtual (illusional?) locations in a non existant place. Sounds like magic to me...
 
 
Trijhaos
22:29 / 11.02.02
I figure Clarke is going to be quoted eventually so lets just get it out of the way. "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" - Arthur C. Clarke

Urbanshamanism? That sounds interesting, are there any good sources about it, or is it yet another "tradition" that really hasn't been written about? I've already read the previous threads about Ixat and the like, so no real sense in pointing me to those threads.
 
 
Molly Shortcake
22:38 / 11.02.02
quote: you;d have to figure. any sort of electronic device that monitors any sory of bio feedback and or amplifies such things could be very useful in magick. think about a submersive 3d virtual reality set upset up to cast spells in.

Check out this thread on NASA Biofeedback device.
 
 
the Fool
23:28 / 11.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Trijhaos:

Urbanshamanism? That sounds interesting, are there any good sources about it, or is it yet another "tradition" that really hasn't been written about?


I'm making it up as I go along. There might be some writing on it out there somewhere, no idea really.
 
 
Tamayyurt
00:16 / 12.02.02
quote: I started thinking about servitors and how they are also "programmed", and thought it would be an interesting project to build a computerized servitor.

Check out the Video Game Characters with a Soul thread from the Laboratory. This could be used a possible servitor tech.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
01:39 / 12.02.02
two examples of magick married to technology:

• the laboratory synthesis of DMT

• psychic friends hotline
 
 
Psyche
01:39 / 12.02.02
quote:Originally posted by fenris23:
Well I have a couple more links for technomagick.
<quibble>Hey psyche the second link you have is for a Roleplaying game</quibble>
http://www.yarrowstalk.org/ is a computerized yarrowstalk I Ching system, uses chaos math and probability.

http://www.fused.com/trap14/ is a computer magick site.

Automated servitor front end... I think I'll try that.


Doh! That's what I get for not skimming before I send :P

Desole,

--Psyche
 
 
Psyche
01:39 / 12.02.02
quote:Originally posted by the Fool:


I'm making it up as I go along. There might be some writing on it out there somewhere, no idea really.


'City Magick' deals with the subject I believe.

--Psyche
 
 
Trijhaos
01:39 / 12.02.02
Last night on a whim I typed "technoshamanism" into google and came across around 690 entries for it. Whats the difference between technoshamanism and technomagick? This is a pretty interesting page on technoshamanism and raving of all things.
 
 
Rev. Jesse
18:21 / 12.02.02
I would have thought Lothar Tuppan would have some interesting insights on this, but he hasn't posted.

I think part of it is because magic does not create the same sort of measurable results that technology can. That is, if you perform a magic working, you don't really know what form the result will take, but if you work on a chemistry reactions, you have a pretty good idea of what is going to happen.

-Jesse
 
 
Rev. Wright
18:29 / 12.02.02
quote: Last night on a whim I typed "technoshamanism" into google and came across around 690 entries for it. Whats the difference between technoshamanism and technomagick? This is a pretty interesting page on technoshamanism and raving of all things.

check here and here to see what involvement barbelith has on this subject
 
 
Analogues On
19:59 / 12.02.02
Of course it all depends on how you define magik and technology . . .

I’ve just started reading Mc Kenna’s
The Invisible Landscape, which, in looking for a modern equivalent for the magical figure of the shaman comes up with 3 possible options; the artist, the psychoanalyst and the scientist:

quote: From The Invisible Landscape:

… scientists are the creators and keepers of a new mythology of matter. Indeed, the scientist who charts the unexplored levels of organisation to be found in nature, from the bizarre, paradoxical realms of quantum physics to the staggering vastness of the metagalaxy, has much in common with the shaman who journeys through the magical topography of the spirit-world.



From the opening chapters, and the reviews I have read, it seems that McKenna is intent on exploring his own shamanic journey between the disciplines/ sciences of holography, I Ching hexagrams, the Mayan calendar, hallucinogens, DNA, Jung and evolution.
I haven’t got too far into it, but he seems to be postulating some sort of unified theory of mind based on, or concluding with, a frequency modulation predictor called Timewave Zero (I'll let you know when I finish reading it)

Then there’s Shulgin’s PIHKAL/TIHKAL books which are both meditative/ spiritual and scientific/ technical, and seem to blur the boundaries between magik and science quite nicely.

Perhaps the synthesis of magik and technology is to be found in the work of such “fringe scientists”, merging mind and matter in an evolutionary, 21st century psience?
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
20:50 / 12.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Rev. Jesse:
I would have thought Lothar Tuppan would have some interesting insights on this, but he hasn't posted.


In my opinion, the ritual structures and methodologies of magic ARE it's technology. At least as far as this definition goes:
"a method, process, etc. for handling a specific technical problem" (Webster's New World Dictionary).

In the same way that I'm not going to use digital recording technology to improve my internal combustion engine, I'm also not too interested in marrying other forms of technology just for the sake of doing it.

Unless it will actually improve upon the existing technology.

As for modern 'techno' shamanism and 'urban' shamanism, I don't consider them any different than old fashioned shamanism.

Someone trying to communicate with the spirit of taxi or ixat or whatever isn't really any different than trying to communicate with any other spirit in your environment.

And using a drum machine to create a shamanic rhythm isn't any different then a culture figuring out a better way to make a drum or other percussive. All that matters is if the method used is effective.

Animistic cultures always believed in the inherent spirits in all things so the concept of a taxi spirit is nothing new.

I went on about this at great length in the Adapting shamanic practices in the 21st century thread some months ago.

The only thing I'll add to that is that I think 'technoshamanism' (in the current rave sense) is a fine thing. Especially if healing or serving the community is what the intent truly is. If it's not the true intent then it's not 'shamanism', it's an ego trip.

I've known a few 'technoshamans' that were really just ordinary DJs who thought the word sounded cool.

[ 12-02-2002: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
09:33 / 13.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Red Running Lord:
I’ve just started reading Mc Kenna’s
The Invisible Landscape, which, in looking for a modern equivalent for the magical figure of the shaman comes up with 3 possible options; the artist, the psychoanalyst and the scientist:


The only problem with that interpretation is that it automatically delegates the shaman to an ancient practice and profession that doesn't exist in modern times.

Shaman's do still exist and they do still practice all over the world. Including Asia, South America, Central America, Australia, Africa, Europe, and North America. Pretty much everywhere. They may not be major figures or widely accepted but they're still there.

While there are similarities between the above professions and shamans. They are not shamans and do not necessariliy use the 'technology' that defines the shamanic methodology.

[ 13-02-2002: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
Analogues On
09:33 / 13.02.02
Agreed.

I should have clarified that what McKenna was talking about was the role of the shaman-scientist in a secular, westernised society, where the “traditional role” of shaman has either disappeared, or - where it appears - is generally misunderstood/ derided by the majority of the population.
 
 
Rev. Wright
09:33 / 13.02.02
Hey, will someone dig out their copy of Timothy Leary's Game of Life, I don't own a copy unfortunetly. Though a friend has a copy and I will endeavor to get my mits on it.
He has alot to say and much will have relevence on this thread. Chemistry and Spirit travel is one for sure. Let alone his ideas on DNA. He is a lord.

[ 13-02-2002: Message edited by: Will 'it work' Wright ]
 
 
Gho5tD4nc3r
16:27 / 13.02.02
So we all pretty much agree technology and magic(k) are pretty much the same, then.

Actually at the point of quantum, traditional magickal rules are as good a guide for what is going to happen as anything else.

Oh, another science magic(k) concurrence: four things, slipt into two pairs (e.g. western elementalism). Genetic coding. See the pattern?

The role of the shaman is alive and well. Stop and think about your "tribe" The people who you spend your time with, the group of friends who are close enough to call family. Now think about the "shaman", the healer and teacher, a bit weird yet aware of their environment and there to help. O.K. the modern incarnation may be a bit lax in ecstatic states, but I bet you all can identify your "tribe's shaman"
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
20:58 / 13.02.02
Those people are naturally trying to fill the role of the shaman as if trying to fill a vacuum but unless those people are mediators between the spirit and physical worlds using an ecstatic state of consciousness, they aren't shamans.

But that brings up an interesting point, if people are naturally trying to fill that role, without even being aware of what that role is or why it is needed, then maybe the merging that needs to happen isn't so much 'technology' vs. 'magick' but personal spirituality and everyday secular life.

I'm not advocating missionary activity or preaching a type of spirituality. I'm not sure exactly what I am suggesting specifically but maybe this vague thing is more at the heart of why people keep 'tech' and 'magic', as well as almost everything in everyday life and individual spirituality separated into another false duality. A duality that we are victims of and that needs to be shattered.

In this thread there are magical practitioners that were unaware of the existance of modern shamans. That's not surprising, and nothing to be ashamed of. If I wasn't intimately involved with the practice and politics of modern shamanism I wouldn't be aware either.

My point is that people don't have knowledge. Things are still very 'occult' (i.e., hidden). Magic is 'fantasy' and reserved for those less than mentally stable. The 'real world' doesn't have any place for it. 'Tech' vs. 'magic' is just another symptom of this ontology.

Right now, in the US there are over a thousand professional shamanic practitioners. Some of them may be good and some may be bad but they are there and their practice continually evolves so that it can fit better into their communities and 'tribes'. Shamanism now has the potential to become more widely accepted in 'western society' but only if it is understood.

A shaman without a community to serve isn't a shaman.

I hope that rant made sense. I feel like I'm trying to shape some amorphous blob into some sort of shape.

If not, tell me I'm whacked and I'll get off my pulpit.
 
 
Rev. Wright
11:11 / 14.02.02
quote: A shaman without a community to serve isn't a shaman

Lothar I found barbelith at last searching the internet for articles regarding shamanism to illustrate a discussion of enlightenment with some wiccans. The year before I read this article I was working on a project called 'Comm-Unity', inwhich I was endevouring to stage a multi-media, dance, come performance event, with lectures and healing as dawn rises. The visual motif was to be a assembleage of World Tribal art, linked together by their common number and patterning sequences (Who's a clever monkey). It was a continuation of my spiritual dance events that are linked in posts earlier. The outcome of the event was to consciously initiate people into a unified shamanic community experience, whilst providing information and demonstarting techniques (such as starting the event with communual meditation), subconsciously I wished to engage their spirit selves, to attract them back to their host selves.

My DJ name(See poster on link) was given to me over the last few years by individuals linked to the community of artists, musicians etc that I have networked and assisted at various events.

I am now in the process of storytelling, a parallel vocation to event/ritual organisation. Attempting to spread words and ideas of healing to a greater tribe/community.

I'm not sure where this posts leads us, but I suppose I just wanted to let others know that there are modern 'wounded healers' stalking Britain. Maybe this is a start to a call to bring them out of the woodwork.

[ 14-02-2002: Message edited by: Will 'it work' Wright ]
 
 
cusm
15:06 / 14.02.02
Having served the social community role of shaman for a "tribe" for a number of years, I can back Lothor up on shamanism being alive and well in the western world. Only, the level of interaction with the spirit world can vary according to need. Different folks have different levels of what they will accept in the mystical sense, and what they need from it. So, you have to play to your audience. Modern technological mindsets dampen the mystical, but you can work around that. Sometimes people just need some good sense. Of course, when LSD in involved, its much easier to fall back on traditional methods

As well, I've found the only people who seem to understand this role are those already doing it. It's not just me around here, there's a rotating staff that fill this role, complete with spiritual politics and all. I really can't talk about it other than with those currently involved in doing the job, its funny that way. Its like working on an entirely different level of reality. You kind of already have to be a part of the spiritual administration to become aware of it.

But yea, I think the role of the shaman will exist as long as there are tribes and magicly inclined folks among them willing to look after them. You sort of get drafted into the job really, from my experience. The spirits will find whoever is able to do it and put them to work, and let them sort out the job skills along the way.
 
 
Gho5tD4nc3r
06:59 / 16.02.02
Lothar, I agree except that rather than say ecstatic states I'd say altered states. The traditional ecstatic methods aren't necessarily needed to enter altered states and it is in altered states the spirit world is touched. But I agree that Shamanism is alive and well.

When you were typing that did you have the concept in your head in a non-verbal way and it was like trying to get a handle on it and explain it, and as it started to shift into amorphia you had to get a second different handle. In this way you try and capture in words a non-verbal thought, by trying to describe it from different angles?
 
  

Page: (1)2

 
  
Add Your Reply