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Schisms in the isms - the comparison and use as analogous of different forms of bigotry

 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
10:37 / 08.01.06
This arising out of the 'dumping a group of friends' thread in Conversation, and some thoughts I'ev been having for some time.

Over there, id entity said:

a bad time to mention how frustrating it is when people use racism as an analogy for homophobia?

And I said

Mention away. It's something that bugs me more and more at the moment. (and vice/versa. Have been considering a HS thread on this for a whle, but if you've got one, go for it)

I've addressed the two together in this thread because I felt that in the cases I was addressing, a similar dynamic was occuring wrt the Other, namely, implicating the O in the bigotry. See also above, nesh's comparison of the two in order to talk from his experience of what experiencing the kind situation that PW was inititally talking about creating.

If you don't feel it's apt, I'm very up for talking about that. Ther are several, for want of a better word, 'tropes of comparison' current (in UK society at least) that drive me nuts.


I'll give an example. At the moment, in the pink press over her, it's very common to make comparisons between the rights v.recently won in law regarding illegalising discrimination on the basis of sexuality - ie that it's no longer as of a month or so ago, legal to refuse goods or services to someone on this basis - and those it mimics, based on race, that have been in place for several decades.

This is a landmark judgement (in some ways. it's missing any reference to gender/transgender exclusion. but that's another story).

However it makes me deeply uncomfortable to read reports in the (overwhelmingly white) mainstream gay press that cast this wonderful moment in terms of 'it's about time we gay people have what black and asiam people have had for decades'.

On one level, this is an entirely accurate reading.

On another it disturbs me profoundly in its crass analogising of two distinct cultures and their relationship to the mainstream.

I am extremely dubious at the way in which the comparison divides privelige up simply into 'those' who have more of it than 'us'. It draws an extremely simplistic and map of people without rights with no consideration of the complexity of minority/out cast status.

I'm a queer Asian woman. I want all of these rights, and I don't want to be told by an overwhelmingly white queer press that I'm so lucky, lucky, lucky to have had racial equality legislation behind me for sooooo long.

Oddly enough, the celebratory/'about time too' commentary in BME queer media hasn't had this tone.

Also, some time ago, a theorist was reference (my head is saying Gloria Anzaduala, but that seems unlikely) who very specifically stated that their work was applicable to ethnicity and only to ethnicity, and was not to be used as analogous for gender/sexuality issues. Can anyone help me out with this one?

Anyway, I think there are good reasons for why these struggles sometimes *are* conflated. But equally, good reasons as to why we should be very careful to make this a convention/general rule.

Thoughts?
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
10:42 / 08.01.06
Another relevant quote from that thread. Cherry Bomb, this time:

Hmm. I suppose not. But I don't understand why it's so frustrating to you. Isn't it obvious that racism, homophobia, sexism and any other hateful prejudice you can think of are all inexorably intertwined? That, to some extent it's sort of all one struggle?
 
 
Ganesh
12:36 / 08.01.06
To clarify the specific example: in the Dumping a Friendship Group thread, ParanoidWriter initially framed his advice to Legba Rex as follows:

Are there any gay, black, or (say) Muslim members of the group, or on the periphery of the group? I only ask because one way of showing such people that their behaviour is unacceptable is to reframe it in another context, out of the "safety" and support of the group . e.g. when you're sitting in the University bar why don't you quote something racist they've said very loudly within ear-shot of (say) a black person: "What did you mean yesterday when you said black people are... [such and such]..."

In other words, he suggested that the 'talk loudly within earshot' approach was applicable in situations pertaining to gay people, black people and Muslims - but then focussed his example specifically on a hypothetical black person. Because he'd suggested the approach as 'multi-purpose' in this way (and because it was in response to Legba's concerns about actively homophobic friends) I talked from my own experience (gay man) as well as engaging with PW's specific example (black person) which I have obviously not directly experienced.

Although I think, like M LaBombe, that there are points of valid comparison and analogy, I'm generally more cautious than I used to be about highlighting them. I remember one experience from way back, when I used to frequent Christian boards and, being open and unapologetic about my sexuality, frequently got into rather energetic discussions with individuals at the more extreme end of Christianity. One such was Missy, who was unstinting in her scorn for "the gay lifestyle". Since arguments there frequently fell back on selective interpretation of Biblical passages, I pointed out that similar Scriptural cherry-picking had been used to justify all manner of things, including slavery. Cue Missy's towering indignation that I "DARE" compare being black with being gay. Cue partial retreat on my part, but only partial: if I were directly saying 'the Church's treatment of gay people' = 'the Church's historical treatment of black people' then I would be way out of line, since I am not in fact a slave; Missy's bone of contention, however, was based around the firm conviction that one wilfully chooses "the gay lifestyle" whereas one cannot choose one's skin colour, and I didn't (and don't) believe that's an entirely valid distinction.

So... there are areas where comparisons can be made, and areas where comparisons should be avoided.

Is it reasonable to bring the trans struggle into this discussion? Or bisexual 'isms'? All tend to be combined under one big LGBT banner but I'm always aware that there are differences in terms of the issues involved...
 
 
Cherielabombe
12:47 / 08.01.06
Well, you know, I was just getting into this as toksik sent me a pm on the subject. A short paraphrase of what I said to him was that I believe that bigotry and hateful behavior all stem from a kind of "might = right" model wherin the "stronger" majority dominate the "weaker" minority. In our society as it stands this idea of being the dominant (powerful) group carries a lot of weight. Certainly much more than I guess more of a "partnership" model (credit to Riane Eisler) wherein each group is valued for what it brings to the cultural table.

So, whatever group is being marginalized, there will always be that model of the strong dominating the weak behind it.

That is not to say, by any stretch of the imagination, that each group, or the representatives within that group, will have the same experiences. Rather I would expect their experiences to be as unique as they are. However, whether one is fighting for women's rights, queer rights or asian rights, to some extent you are fighting for the rights of every minority group to be accepted and respected. At least in my opinion.
 
 
Ganesh
12:56 / 08.01.06
One difficulty arises, then, when minority groups target each other...
 
 
alas
14:56 / 08.01.06
I agree with CherielaB's point that racism, homophobia, sexism and any other hateful prejudice you can think of are all inexorably intertwined? That, to some extent it's sort of all one struggle?

But I do want to explore this statement a bit further: However, whether one is fighting for women's rights, queer rights or asian rights, to some extent you are fighting for the rights of every minority group to be accepted and respected.

Weeeel...It would be great if this were so, but it really depends on the goals and models one is using. "Fighting for rights" is a phrase, for instance, that carries with it a baggage of civil rights as defined by Western liberalism since roughly the Enlightenment--at which time, obviously, those "rights" were not seen as entirely incompatible with slavery, colonialism and genocide of first peoples around the world, the denial of legal citizenship for women, etc.

Since that time, we've seen repeatedly that it's quite possible to "fight for the rights" of one's own group while ignoring others, or even at the direct expense of other marginalized groups. Or by using some specific other marginalized group as a convenient "greater evil" to distract the mainstream culture from its prejudicial behavior towards one's own group.

E.g. Many of the 19th century (white) women's rights advocates in the US received their training as political activists by working in the anti-slavery movement, where they realized that sexism severely constricted their ability to be taken seriously and to gain authority within the movement. They came to see that their own subaltern position belied and made hypocritical the language of equality and liberty that the anti-slavery movement was grounded in. Yet, then, after the Civil War, when the 13/14/15th amendments to the Constitution were passed, "giving" black MEN citizenship "rights", many WHITE women's rights activists were not above making racist comments about the disparity as they continued seeking not-yet "granted" women's civil rights. (One of the great fighters for women's rights in the US was Frederick Douglass, who, similarly discovered that the anti-slavery movement was riddled with both sexism and racism, and he boldly called them out on both issues.)

A metaphor for this situation that comes from Southern US folklore is "crabs in a barrel," where the crabs are climbing over one another and wind up pulling each other down as they try to climb out.

Meaning: If you don't have a vision rooted in genuine human solidarity, if you're not interested in trying to get rid of the barrel--or in attacking those people and forces most responsible for putting all y'all in the barrel--then this kind of infighting is virtually inevitable.

So, to get back to GGM's main example, I don't want to be told by an overwhelmingly white queer press that I'm so lucky, lucky, lucky to have had racial equality legislation behind me for sooooo long.

It's precisely this kind of conflation of oppressions that's problematic. People who are privileged in some area, e.g. wrt their race, don't get a "get out racism free" card as a result of, say, experiencing homophobia. The comparative rhetorical move that GGM is describing, here, is one not rooted in solidarity but in the "crabs in a barrel" struggle.
 
 
Ganesh
15:05 / 08.01.06
The 'crabs in a barrel' analogy chimes with one of the more depressing findings in stigma research: the more a subgroup is stigmatised, the more its apparent need to stigmatise other subgroups.
 
 
Ex
16:04 / 08.01.06
I agree with a lot of what's been said so far. Like Cherie, I do think that oppressions, and therefore the struggles between them, are interrelated. But that's partly why I think that comparison, and straightforward analogy in particular, is a very dangerous tool is fighting 'isms'.

The place where I trip over this most often is in teaching gender and sexuality studies and trying not to use racial analogies. Because I believe that racism and sexism are interconnected, and tangled up and cut across each other, I think it isn't possible or useful to artificially separate them out and say 'Look, sexism is like racism.' For a slew of reasons: mainly, that they don't affect discrete, different groups of people, so any attempt at an analogy invalidates the existence of the people in the overlap (in this case, most obviously black women). So in GGM's case coverage, the idea that 'black and asian people' as a group have something that 'gay people' as a group don't ignores black and asian gay people, who've had exactly as much or little protection on the grounds of their sexuality as white gay people. It's insane that gay press coverage should implicitly regard black and asian people as a group over there somewhere, all straight, with a head start on the great rights-race of life.

One 'ism' will also cut across another and change how the other 'ism' operates, rendering some of its operations and thus the strategies one takes against it completely different - for example, the standard feminist argument that women have been confined to domestic spaces and treated as essentially decorative is rubbish when you look at the history of black and working class women. If you're viewing 'isms' as analogous but separate operations, you kind of loose sight of how they interact at any more than a basic level, I think.

I don't think it's redundant to base political rhetoric and cooperation on the connections between 'isms', and as Cherie says, I'd hope that links could be made on that basis. But comparison has to be done with such care.

And alas' point is a good one. I will dredge up my favourite shock quote, which is Elizabeth Cady Stanton's screamingly racist pitch for (white) women's votes: “If Saxon men have legislated thus for their own mothers, wives and daughters, what can we hope for at the hands of Chinese, Indians, and Africans? ... I protest against the enfranchisement of another man of any race or clime until the daughters of Jefferson, Hancock, and Adams are crowned with their rights...” Doubly wrongheaded when you know that Jefferson had daughters with Sally Hemmings (who he failed to free from slavery, if memory serves).

This reminds me of the thing that really pulled me up sharp on making analogies, and I can't recall the theorist that first alerted me to it (could be hooks). She said that the comparison 'women are being treated no better than black people' is always unavoidably a shock tactic, relying on racism and an obscured qualifier. 'Women', if you don't qualify it, is taken to mean 'white women' - indeed, logically, it doesn't make much sense to say 'black women are treated no better than black people' - so what that analogy is really saying is 'white women are being treated like black people and this is appalling.' Even if that's totally not the intention of the person using it, this subconscious racism is how it derives its emotive power. That made me feel decidedly queasy - and initially highly resistant, but I suspected that that was my own privilege sticking out a mile, and the analysis has really born out in other situations.

Really interesting thread. I look forward to people pointing out how many times I've obscured a qualifier in this post and made myself look like an idiot.
 
 
trouble at bill
14:12 / 10.01.06
This is a fascinating thread. I know Stolke wrote that article called "Is Sex to Gender as Race is to Ethnicity?", because that's the first thing I ever read in the one gender course I've ever done in my life. Sadly however, I don't recall what answer(s) to the title question she presented, so I'm probably not helping much by dredging that up.

Is it that we need a distinction between on the one hand analyses of day-to-day reality and on the other hand, analyses of origin/explanation? To a crude Marxist, classism, sexism, racism and homophobia are all integral parts of capitalist ideology and spring from the positions of women, people of colour and queer people in the overall system of production. I'm not sure... I think there may be some truth in that; it was certainly what I took Cherrie's original statement to mean. But that sort of Marxism is an explanatory model, not a deep or subtle description of day-to-day life as, say, a queer person of colour which would seem to need to be much more detailed and nuanced than crude Marxism would allow for. Which when one thinks how most of us here probably feel about vulgar Marxism is hardly surprising, I suppose.

the theorist that first alerted me to it (could be hooks). She said that the comparison 'women are being treated no better than black people' is always unavoidably a shock tactic, relying on racism

Blimey, when put that way it almost seems like a sort of Godwin's Law. But I do agree that as a rhetorical technique, it can have great impact and as a cognitive tool it may have a great heuristic value. (For one thing, men who 'joke' about sexism in the presence of women despite the fact they would never, never make the subject of racism into humour in or out of the presence of persons of colour... to me it says an awful lot about how some men must view women and feminism. Likewise, RAW made the point about women who talk about men in the way they would never dream of talking about a specific ethnic group, subaltern or otherwise - he says it's a good way of separating 'equality feminists' from 'misandery feminists' which as a man he feels to be a beneficial move. Oh and comparisons can really help less widely-discussed or widely acknowledged forms of discrimination, ageism being a primary example.)

What we're coming to here is an awareness that it's a question of different analyses and tactics for different situations, perhaps?

alas, thank you for that wonderful metaphor, one I was not previously aware of; my next fictionsuit will definately be Crab in a Barrel'. ;-)
 
 
*
18:02 / 10.01.06
In the "friends" thread, I jumped to a hasty conclusion about what was going on there— I was tired when I tried to catch up with the last few pages of the conversation— and possibly if I'd read more carefully, I wouldn't have made the comment. But I'm really glad this thread exists; thanks for starting it. (I actually hadn't noticed it 'till now.)

The versions of using racism as an analogy for homophobia which are particularly, obviously heinous are, I think:

1) "You wouldn't get away with that if you were talking about Black people/Asians/Indigenous people/Latinas." This implies that racism is dead. It's not. Barbelith aside (touch wood) there are plenty of other places where it is perfectly acceptable to make racist comments, overtly or covertly. And even where it's not acceptable, people will often ignore it because they don't want to be seen as making trouble. (This is also the version of the analogy I thought, mistakenly, was operating in pw's suggestion.)

2) "Homophobia/Transphobia is the new racism." Because the old racism is dead. Right. Takes the above one step further in implying that not only is racism gone, but we shouldn't even be talking about it— we should concentrate on the Next Big Issue, homophobia/transphobia/mousephobia etc. Essentially, then, discussion of race is passé, and being antiracist is old hat.

3) "X is the gay Malcom X/ the trans Rosa Parks." Whenever I hear this, oddly, it's being used in a way that makes clear that the speaker hasn't the least idea about the history of the civil rights movement, the philosophies of the people zie's using in that fashion, or how colonialist zie's being. And the colonialism, I think, is what's come to really bother me— that white queers who say these things seem to want to take on the benefits of being associated with the civil rights/antiracism movements without any of the stigma, any of the work, or even educating ourselves about what those movements are about. And this shows up in a lot of more subtle ways which are also damaging, it seems to me.

This is counterproductive, I feel, for two main reasons— first is how it damages coalition-building with potential allies of color as well as queer people of color, and second is because the kinds of power dynamics and history of oppression of queer people are not precisely the same as those of people of color. One of the things that the civil rights movement drew heavily on, for example, was the strength of the family. As queer people, we don't always have the support of our birth families, and it isn't intuitive to people that we form families (and many of us don't). Trying to borrow this strategy from the civil rights movement, then, isn't going to work in exactly the same way— and it might further alienate those of us who don't have ties with our birth families and have no desire to form a new family.

The antiracist effort has not already proven an unqualified success, as so many white people seem to believe, because the more subtle forms of racism and prejudice are still going strong, and it's these things that Asian, Black, Latina/o, Indigenous, and other people not regarded as white, still suffer from and are harmed by every day. If we're going to borrow the strategies that have worked to a degree against oppressive legislation, it would benefit us enormously to work with antiracist efforts to end these more subtle forms of racism and prejudice. First, we should do this because it's right. Second, it will help us build coalitions. Third, if and when we find ourselves in a "nominally equal" situation, where we have had equality legislated for us but this does not change the underlying heterosexist and cisgenderist structures, we'll have experience fighting subtle forms of discrimination and prejudice. Fourth, we should be doing this already because it's right. (And good for those people who already are— a number much fewer, I venture to say, than those who think they already are.)
 
 
alas
19:25 / 10.01.06
Bilious, I respect what your goals seem to be--i.e., solidarity of all oppressed people--but this statement is the clincher for why I just can't agree with much of what you're saying, and I hope to show you that it actually undercuts your very argument:

Likewise, RAW made the point about women who talk about men in the way they would never dream of talking about a specific ethnic group, subaltern or otherwise - he says it's a good way of separating 'equality feminists' from 'misandery feminists' which as a man he feels to be a beneficial move.

I'm not sure where this point was made or who RAW is, but it's deeply problematic. I am very tempted to be snarky here, wrt the last phrase in particular. I'm going to try very hard to be respectful in my disagreement, but I gotta tell you that this kind of argument makes my skin crawl.

This is a huge topic, and I know we've discussed it before--I'll try to dig up some links if it seems like it would be helpful. But I'd start by urging you to read very carefully id entity's post that follows yours.

And one more piece of common ground: I think we agree that all people, regardless of their position in society, should strive to be respectful of the integrity of other people, even as they disagree. But.

The RAW statement you've paraphrased above is deeply suspicious to me, because I've heard it so many times before. It is a rhetorical tactic with roots in the backlash against all the rights movements, and it's the kind of phrase that has long been used to undermine them.

If you've read Malcolm X, re-read what he says about the "happy darky" image of US blacks, happily pickin' cotton for ole massa, that he deliberately refused. Open any magazine and look at the smiling, utterly non-threatening, open to the male gaze stance that is virtually de riguer for female models. Look at the way that gay people are expected to be happy little mascots to heterosexual communities when they appear on mainstream television. Good little queer eyes happily making all those straight guys more hip.

Each of these groups, and many others, have a common experience of being expected to provide, in Virginia Woolf's trope, a false mirror for the dominant group ( i.e., mainly white men, but the categories shift as the perspective shifts as id entity's wise post maintains). That is, particularly at the point where they have initial visibility in a culture, subaltern groups are expected to provide for their oppressors a mirror that "possess[es] the magic and delicious power of reflecting the figure of man at twice its natural size.”

And we're all expected to do this by being happy in our little corner of the big bad world. By being nice. By telling the powers that be what they want to hear, serving them in just the way they want us to, because, really, it's what we were "made" for.

So when I hear that there's a neat little way to separate the feminist wheat ("equality feminists") from the evil bitch chaff ("misandry feminists"--wtf? I've never met anyone who refers to herself by this term!), I am hearing "divide and conquer."

I'm hearing: throw more crabs in that barrel and watch them fight.

And we get: "I'm not one of those evil bitchy women who say bad things about men!" (Or, as my students say, "I'm not a feminist, but ...") I'm a good girl! I like men! Really!

Et, voila, we're no longer fighting oppression, but working to make sure we're not rejected, beaten up, fired, mocked, by the people who still have the power. We're no longer seeking to get rid of the barrel, but hastening to assuage the feelings of those who benefit from keeping us in that barrel.

And we're probably doing so in the hopes that maybe we'll get to be one of the pet crabs that periodically gets paraded around outside the barrel as evidence for how fair the system really is. ("If those other crabs just worked harder, they'd make it out of the barrel.")

So, again, I'm not claiming that women never ever say mean, nasty, and unfair things about men. I'm not saying that women never say mean nasty unfair things about men in the name of feminism. I'm not saying that feminists never make sweeping generalizations about men that are not quite accurate or defensible. I agree with all those statements.

But I'd be very wary of any argument like this that claims to be based in equality and fairness but which 1) creates new terms for members of historically oppressed groups that are not claimed by that group (RAW apparently says "misandry feminist" Rush Limbaugh says "feminazi"), 2) has the effect, whether intended or not, of reinforcing a status quo that benefits the speaker, directly or indirectly. (I.e., this is a classic example of a hegemonic claim.)
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
19:39 / 10.01.06
RAW = Robert Anton Wilson. A divisive figure on Barbelith, to be sure.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
19:41 / 10.01.06
Which is to say, I agree entirely with alas. Separeting feminists into good and bad, where the bad ones "hate men", is always a fundentally conservative jack move. See here for a previous Barbelith thread on the subject.
 
 
trouble at bill
15:22 / 13.01.06
thanks for the non-snarky responses, i am genuinely thinking about what you three are saying (though if i do find my self respectfully disagreeing with Petey or alas, it will hardly be the first time). But just to clarify for the moment, would you (alas, id and Petey) say then that analogies between different(ly) subdominant groups should never be deployed? Even with awareness of the fact they are often or always problematic in various ways?
 
 
*
17:37 / 13.01.06
I don't think they should never be used (or "deployed"). But then, never is one of those words, isn't it? People use them when they want to catch others in a sweeping generalization.

Certainly, there are circumstances where a careful comparison can be drawn. The problem is that frequently the people using these analogies and comparisons haven't bothered to make sure the comparison is not misleading, and that it doesn't imply something which is in fact racially prejudiced, sexist, or homophobic. Even if a speaker thinks that he or she has made sure of this, without an intimate familiarity with both kinds of prejudice, chances are she or he has unwittingly made a potentially damaging error.

A disabled trans person can explain how being trans is like having a disability, for them, because of how it impacts the way they and others relate to their body. An able-bodied trans person runs the risk of perpetuating inaccuracies about people with disabilities if they try the same thing. In a conversation between myself (an able-bodied trans man) and an acquaintance who uses a wheelchair, the two of us were able to mutually create a comparison between having a disability and being transgender which made sense to us and furthered understanding. That was only possible, I feel, because the analogy emerged more or less mutually between us as the result of equal interchange.
 
 
alas
21:05 / 13.01.06
Bilious--Thanks, in return, for your respectful response; I would welcome your reflection on my argument, perhaps especially if you do, finally, disagree. I'm interested.

In answer to your question about whether comparisons can never be made, I think if you look at my own response, e.g.,

Each of these groups, and many others, have a common experience of being expected to provide, in Virginia Woolf's trope, a false mirror for the dominant group ( i.e., mainly white men, but the categories shift as the perspective shifts as id entity's wise post maintains)....

you see I am actually making a comparison, of sorts. (One which may be too sweeping; rebuttals are welcome). So, obviously I would not say "never." I DO believe there's common ground to be found by differently oppressed groups. The "crabs in a barrel" metaphor suggests that we are all in this together in some critical ways.

But I also know that privilege blinds people, including me, to important differences in experiences, and causes us to make problematic and inaccurate assumptions about other people's experiences. I am an academic: my sincere goal is to try to see the world as accurately as I can. I have some possibly unwarranted faith that continually seeking genuine understanding (which, for me, is critically different from the word "knowledge") of the complexity of this world--as impossible as full understanding is and will always remain--is a form of love.

To me, that means looking at the world, at the problems we face, with as deep an awareness of as many perspectives as I can possibly find.

In a hierarchy, powerful people rarely feel obliged in any way to really listen to and learn from people who they perceive as "beneath" them in some way. People in positions of social dominance may "pity" those "less fortunates," they may even put them on a strange kind of pedestal, but they don't have to listen in such a way that is sincerely trying to see the world from the perspective of the subordinated.

We receive daily and hourly training, however, in learning to see the world from the perspective of the dominators. Our livelihoods often depend upon our willingness to learn to act and speak in ways that do not threaten, and that in fact flatter the people who pay us.

This training is quite subtle, often. For instance, rapes in films, are almost always shown from the perspective of the rapist, and only rarely from the point of view of the one being raped. The film may seem to be saying, "isn't this terrible!" but I'd say the more powerful, deeper, emotion-level message is in the camera's cold eye on the victim's vulnerability. It's deeply satisfying in some strange way, because we seem to be in the position of terrible power over the person being raped, even as we may be, intellectually, disapproving the rape and hoping the rapist is brought to justice. (Does that make sense?)

In other words, even "negative" rape scenes in mainstream films tend to reaffirm some basic beliefs about, for example, what kinds of bodies are penetrable by other bodies (i.e., usually female bodies or bodies that have been 'feminized' in some critical ways), and which ones are penetrators. We all "know" that healthy men's bodies can be penetrated--by other people's body parts or by objects, including bullets--but at a deeply sedimented level we don't know this. There are serious implications to this kind of distorted understanding.

So I'm saying that unless you've done some serious self-examination and genuinely sought to unlearn that perspective of domination, such comparisons have a very good chance of reifying--i.e., reaffirming--the hierarchical system that they purportedly seek to dismantle.

We have many defenses against ideas and ways of viewing the world that are radically different from our own, radically challenging to the status quo, and so many ways of protecting ourselves from the possibility of change, even when that change might--in the long run--make for a freer, more interesting world, and possibly one that's more congruent with our professed values. So I think it's worth working very hard to pull down those defenses.
 
 
Quantum
14:57 / 16.01.06
(Just wanted to post saying this thread is fascinating, lurky lurk lurk)
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
09:48 / 18.01.06
(just a quick holding post to say thanks heaps for all the thoughtful answers, am reading and thinking, but a bit hectic atm, but I will be back to this, as some great and thought-provoking stuff is being said.)
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
10:36 / 18.01.06
Oh, and briefly, popped back to say to 'nesh that I think bi- and transphobia within 'LGBT' communities is a great illustraion of what alas notes as the 'crabs in barrel' effect.

Thanks heaps for that phrase, which I hadn't heard before, and is really useful for me in thinking about this. I've often heard this dynamic referred to as 'the ladder pull', ie whereby a model is created that gives finite space in the 'lifeboat' to marginalised groups, so you have to get on that ladder, push everyone else off it, and pull it up after you.

Also, you integrate/mimic the dominant discourse as much as possible and stigmatise/explictly seperate yourself from members of your 'group' who are more despised.

There's a very similiar dynamic at work in some old first-generation immigrant attitudes to asylum seekers and recent immigrants/immigration law. I've encountered in my 'community' and it disgusts and bewilders* me.

*not in a 'why do you feel that', I'm aware of the kind of stats/dynamics 'nesh references above, I just find it ... argggh, am too inarticulate about this, but I find it, hypocritical, short-sighted and just wrong, I guess.

Also, huge thanks to id entity for nailing exactly why the initial example of 'homophobia vs. racism' pisses me off so much. Hadn't quite got it straight in my own head.

It totally is for me that this rhetoric assumes that there's only room for one ongoing narrative of oppression. So that in some ludicrous way homophobia has taken the 'baton' on that away from racism, which has obviously withered away.

It's always great to be told by members of a majority that a form of oppression from which they do not suffer is dead and gone. *growl*
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
12:08 / 18.01.06
This is a landmark judgement (in some ways. it's missing any reference to gender/transgender exclusion. but that's another story).

Actually, maybe it isn't another story at all. The relationship of the 'gay mainstream'to trans people is an extremely troubled one and often involves the 'ladder pull', and the 'crabs in barrel' dynamics.

I'm also, Bilious, pretty dubious about the example you've given. Basically of one's first response (and I'll accept, having very little knowledge of RAW, that it might not be his, or yours) to a discussion of, say, feminism, being to 'sort out' the good and bad.

It's a response, which may have validity at some point in a discussion/process, but as a first response it smacks of 'divide and rule' to me, in much the alas describes, or in ways which for me are appallingly reminiscent of Britain's colonial activities.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
15:15 / 18.01.06
The wisdom and complexity and general willingness-to-dialogue-and-explain of various people's (especially GGM, alas and id entity) responses to this thread make me feel all squee-ish. There is hope! And I really like the 'crabs in a barrel' metaphor. That's the best way I've ever heard someone explain the vagaries of capitalism and identity politics.

My take on this problem of equating different orders of oppression is that power simply doesn't work in the binaristic way someone like Riane Eisler says it does. As people have variously pointed out, the world can't be divided into those who oppress and those who are oppressed: the presence of discriminations against some people within 'oppressed' communities bears this out. Power is not binary, but fluid and nodal: it agglomerates in particular sites and in particular ways, between particular groups or individuals. This also has a lot to do with the histories of how racism and homophobia and transphobia work. As you might notice when you start looking at those histories in a micropolitical and material sense, when you get down to it no 'struggle' is united, and every struggle operates according to its own context, rules, the knowledges and discourses that are invoked, etc. What I mean by 'a material and micropolitical sense' is that looking at specific and everyday practices, little moments, rather than the stock narratives we are taught about as 'history' will give you a really different and much more heterogeneous grasp of 'events'. For instance, that phrase, the 'civil rights movement' -- where politically disparate groups are commonly lumped together as if they had similar political objectives and philosophies, just because they were around at the 'same time': Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, the Black Panthers, Malcolm X, etc. That phrase on its own obscures a whole history of resistance and opposition and debate within Black communities about how to fight.

Now, there might be similarities between particular struggles, but there's also a politics at work about who has the power to make those comparisons, and how conveniently it fits into an assumption that something like 'racism', eg, is historical and 'over'.

I'd like to throw in a different order of comparison, now, which does arguably different work... In my PhD research I've been looking at how lots of people want to talk about transpeople as 'migrants', and articulate trans experience as a form of 'migrant' experience. On the surface, it sort of 'makes sense' to talk about crossing gender as a kind of geographical crossing. There's this one essay I'm thinking of where the author takes almost every aspect of trans existence and supplies the equivalent experience in migration terms, ie gender clinics are 'just like' Ellis Island because both act as regulatory sites for policing who is allowed through the gates of a nation, or of a gender, respectively. It works, to a certain extent, and at the same time I find it ludicrous and incredibly appropriative of 'migrant' experience...

I have a theory about this: it's not about saying that the phobic structures that police and oppress migrants in any particular place are history or 'over'. Instead, this way of talking about trans experience capitalises on the way that being a migrant is one of the most marginalised subject positions a person can get thrust into, and a generally recognition of that fact.

So, why is this? Being the most marginalised is a kind of capital different groupuscules use to differentiate their own interests/needs from the generalised mass of 'oppressed' subjects. The 'crabs in a barrel' situation encourages people to draw equivalences between their own and another form of oppression because discourses about how to end oppression -- discourses about how to 'win justice' or rights, etc -- are already a kind of claw-weapon the crabs use to crawl over each other. In a weird way, talking about trans experience as migration makes the discrimination against gender variant people intelligible to a 'popular audience' (or, the state, increasingly).

At the same time, that metaphor appropriates and lessens -- cheapens -- the reality of global migration and border controls. Having to see a shrink for two years so you can have surgery is not the same as being locked up in a detention centre on an island, or in the desert for unlimited amounts of time while the authorities process your asylum request. Buying black market hormones is not the same as trying to swim the distance from Ceuta to the Spanish coast in freezing cold water when your children can't swim, so must be left behind; or using an upturned table with an outboard motor to cross from Cuba to Florida, trying to outwit coastguard patrols. Being trans is no picnic, but I would never equate my experiences with the experience of people who have had to do that shit.

More importantly, the equivalence renders invisible the specificity of how migrants might also be gender variant, and the particular issues posed by that experience. Heaps of Brazilian travestis spend years at a time working in Italy, for example, and Italian migration departments were actively targeting Brazilian travestis for deportation as far back as the late 80's and early 90's. To outwit the authorities, the Brazilians would fly to somewhere 'neutral' like Belgium or Spain on a tourist visa, then try to cross illegally into Italy, where they would overstay their already invalid visas, and return home when deported, or when they'd made enough money doing sexwork to buy houses or get rich. I sourced this information from Don Kulick's excellent book Travesti*, published in 1998, before Italy joined the EU: it's probably harder to get in now -- the equivalent would be flying to one of the sattelite EU states, I guess, or a state on the border of the EU like Turkey where it's easier for a poor, non-white, 'third world' travesti to get a visa. (Sorry, this is my thesis research and I tend to get a bit geeky/overloady with the information at times.)

This is a very specific example, and one I obviously feel quite passionate about, and quite possibly totally incoherent. I'm trying to offer another way of looking at the problem. Does it make sense to anyone?

*Link squirm: there's a transgender superstore asociated with Amazon? WTF.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
15:45 / 18.01.06
(off topica 1: the presence of Disco in the Headshop gives *me* a big ole squee
off topica/slightly mischievious 2: curious, Petey. How much RAW have you *actually* read?)
 
 
trouble at bill
12:02 / 01.02.06
Just a very quick note to alas (and anyone else remotely interested), I'm not prepared to try and defend the RAW position, as Petey has said, it - or stances very similar to it - have been discussed in the thread he links to above and also in this one
here.
 
  
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