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Dumping A Friendship group

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
19:48 / 07.01.06
PW: When you get back, you may be tempted to repond to Ganesh in a way that suggests that you understand how he, as a gay man, should behave better than he does. I very strongly advise you to avoid doing that.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
20:04 / 07.01.06
If I 'downloaded' a picture of my 'member of parliament' onto the interweb, would anyone be interested in seeing it?
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
20:54 / 07.01.06
[I'm back sooner than expected, so...]

Haus, I wouldn't dream of advising Ganesh in such a manner (so no worries there), although I am very interested in his opinion.

Might I suggest, PW, that if you're ever in the situation of truly wanting to provide a sobering backdrop for discussion of racism, you head to one of the 'blacker' pubs down Brixton way, where your entire group is outnumbered by those whose colour you're discussing? I feel this would force all and sundry to raise their game, discussion-wise.

Are you being sarcastic or are you agreeing with me? If the former, then are you assuming that I and my friends are all white? Ganesh, I don't know about you, but my friends are not abundantly white, straight, middle-class, etc. Oh, and btw, I'm not scared to discuss anything simply because I might be in a minority or because someone nearby might get the wrong impression; never have been, never will be. Indeed, I have followed the advise I have given here in situations similar to the one you suggest and the results were not as you seem to suggest.

For now though, because I feel I'm no longer helping this discussion and (despite my best efforts) my comments appear only to be winding people up, I will henceforth try to exercise silence in this thread. Sorry, I sincerely didn't intend to get anyone's back up. I've just always believed that if someone feels they can defend a (e.g) racist comment in private, they should have no problem defending it in public. If I'm wrong, then so be it and I'll try my best to rectify my thinking. But if so, tell me, please, how else should racism and racist comments be dealt with? The alternative feels as though one would be merely sweeping the issue under the carpet.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
21:17 / 07.01.06
Did I just walk onto the wrong message board?

Paranoidwriter, can you really not see how patronising, condescending and potentially terrifying your 'racist roleplay' is?

You're proposing to conduct an educational lesson on the huge damage caused by hate speech by er, performing hate speech.

Nesh has this covered I think, in suggesting that to 'really' make this strategy work, you need to take your (presumably white? white people aren't the only racists, y'know, but in this case I'm assuming white) racist intercolutor and yourself into a pub in Brixton or Toxteth, or a cafe in Southall or Rusholme.

And just in case this sounds like an endorsement, even then I'm not suggesting you single out an individual on the basis of hir ethnicity as to use, as Nesh puts it, as an Everymanority and then sit close to this person and engineer a racist conversation.

In doing that, you're making your unconsenting stoodge bear responsibility for your companion's racism. If not, why should ze have to be affected by it. This is at the root of what I find most disturbing about your posts and much of this thread.

Rest assured PW that I'm not only talking to you, I'm also horrified by the idea that

a case of your friends just running up and down the thing shouting about 'pooves' and such in general [...] I'm guessing the former, while not so good, would be just about borderline forgiveable, in the sense that it probably wasn't ruining anyone's evening


Both of these chains of thought seem to be reverting to that vile age-old chestnut that the responsibility for the bigotry doesn't lie entirely with the individual, but also with the group that provokes it, who have to somehow play along/are implicated

In the case of Canal Street, the gayers appear to invite the attention by, goddammit, hanging out on balconies of gay bars, in the gay quarter. Alex seems to assume that they're just waiting for homophobic hetties to shout abuse and complete the punchline to their joke.

Actually, as 'nesh points out, 'even' in a gay quarter, mob-handled uses of hatespeech are hardly the stuff of giggles.

I find it astonishing that it's assumed that anecdotally observed gay male behaviour in a gay male area/bar is assumed to be meaningless unless 'completed' by a homophobic straight male response.

In both cases this is rubbish, and offensive rubbish at that.

While I'm all for, and often have on here argued for, being sympathetic to people attempting to overcome their own prejudices. (And have benefited hugely in the past from people making this effort for me), to assume compliance/codependance is arrogance of the first order.

In the final analysis, bigotry is the problem of the person who holds those views, and expecting the object of that bigotry to 'help out'/assuming that it's invited is compounding that bigotry to the nth degree.
 
 
Ganesh
21:19 / 07.01.06
Are you being sarcastic or are you agreeing with me? If the former, then are you assuming that I and my friends are all white?

I'm assuming that your hypothetical friends, in the case of this frankly stupid-assed scenario you've provided, are white, or at least non-black - on the grounds that you've suggested locating a handy lone black non-participant to provide colourful backdrop for your "very loud" racist 'challenge'.

I'm not scared to discuss anything simply because I might be in a minority or because someone nearby might get the wrong impression; never have been, never will be. Indeed, I have followed the advise I have given here in situations similar to the one you suggest and the results were not as you seem to suggest.

Really? You put yourself into a context wherein you were surrounded by the objects of your educational 'challenge', then loudly repeated racist commentary? If you didn't get the shit kicked out of you, then I can only imagine that a) you won the 'observers' over through sheer force of persuasion, or b) they remained uninvolved or fucked off and left you to it (as would I).

But if so, tell me, please, how else should racism and racist comments be dealt with? The alternative feels as though one would be merely sweeping the issue under the carpet.

Put simply, don't patronisingly use black/gay people as a backdrop for your own psychodrama. Either discuss the subject privately or quietly. Do not rehearse racist/homophobic 'challenges' "very loudly" in the presence of black/gay strangers.

I'm actually quite amazed that you apparently perceive the use of minority groups as a passively 'sobering'/'shaming' audience as unproblematic.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
21:20 / 07.01.06
I've just always believed that if someone feels they can defend a (e.g) racist comment in private, they should have no problem defending it in public.

And as a sentiment, I agree with you. Also, if that racist comment were to come up, spontaneously, then responding to it to point out effect and hatefulness, as others have suggested upthread to Legba, would be a laudable response, IMO.

It's engineering a situation like that, that gives me the willies on b/h of the unwilling 'subject' of the experiment.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
21:37 / 07.01.06
don't patronisingly use black/gay people as a backdrop for your own psychodrama. Either discuss the subject privately or quietly. Do not rehearse racist/homophobic 'challenges' "very loudly" in the presence of black/gay strangers.

I'm actually quite amazed that you apparently perceive the use of minority groups as a passively 'sobering'/'shaming' audience as unproblematic.



Ah, that's it. Thankyou.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:40 / 07.01.06
I think one thing that you're missing, PW, is that what matters about these terms is not just what you think about them. To quote Goodness Gracious Meme elsewhere:

In whatever context they're used, these words have history of being used as hate speech... to me they're not words to chuck about. Even using them for shock value/effect is something I think one has to be pretty careful about.

Somebody quietly enjoying a cup of tea in a café might not want to hear a hate term aimed at them, whether or not it is being used by somebody like you, who is using it in what they believe to be the pursuit of good, and who could not possibly cause offence because you are so manifestly not racist. Doesn't matter. It is still invading somebody else's space and hitting them with a word that will affect them in a way that you, as a straight white boy, are not considering. Persephone, talking about hearing a hate term for her ethnic group, described it as like being "stabbed in the eye". This reaction - that even if a "good guy" says it, it is still a term the careless use of which has the power to upset people - is something you don't seem to account for, and because there is no comparable term for you, because you are a white, straight man, it's hard to communicate it, no matter how many of your best friends are black/gay etc. I can sympathise - I've had the same cognitive dissonance myself.

So, yes. Obviously, if people are prepared to make racist statements in what they feel to be a group friendly to that racist statement, they should be subject to people turning out not to be friendly to it. That's not the same as forcing people to listen to racist shit with the hope (which may or may not be fulfilled) of shaming somebody that you are still kind of hanging out in the pub with.

I'm also confused as to how this fits with you decrying somebody for challenging a friend of yours' oh-so-ironic veneration of Hitler in a public space, but that may be a question for another day.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:42 / 07.01.06
Ah. Late to the party. Ganesh and GGM do this better above - read them.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:51 / 07.01.06
So. Are we all agreed that Legba should dump his mates then?
 
 
Ganesh
21:55 / 07.01.06
So. Are we all agreed that Legba should dump his mates then?

Well, I reckon he should address the problem by pretending to be gay and taking them all to a gay bar, then loudly... oh fuck it, yes, he should dump the worst ones and keep in touch with the rest.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
22:01 / 07.01.06
I'm actually quite amazed that you apparently perceive the use of minority groups as a passively 'sobering'/'shaming' audience as unproblematic.

I've not once suggested that it's "unproblematic", and I did try to readdress the clumsy phrasing of my original post and move on to a more general "make their racism public"-type of standpoint. I also find it slightly dismaying that you seem to suggest black people would either respond violently or apathetically to a neighbouring conversation where one person is trying to make another address their racist beliefs; this is not the case in my experience.

However, all that typed: Ganesh (and others), the more I think about it, the more I realise tha you're ABSOLUTELY right about not "patronisingly use black/gay people as a backdrop for your own psychodrama".. Therefore, I hereby take back my "advice", acknowledge it as misguided, and apologise for any offence caused.

It's engineering a situation like that, that gives me the willies on b/h of the unwilling 'subject' of the experiment.

Indeed. I was wrong, and I'm genuinely sorry.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
22:01 / 07.01.06
Sounds like the plan to me. Apolgies Legba for the hijack but that really needed responding to.

FWIW, this does sound tough, thinking about junking a large proportion of your social life is a scary prospect, but it does sound like you've pretty much made up your mind already.

And again FWIW, I think that cutting off, maybe while sounding out any more sympatico souls about keeping in touch/socialising separately, is the way to go.

a)they sound like tossers.
b)and like they're make your life miserable.

Dump 'em.
 
 
Ganesh
22:11 / 07.01.06
I've not once suggested that it's "unproblematic"

You have, prior to your last post, considered it unproblematic enough to repeatedly suggest it as a viable course of action - and you don't appear to see the problems, both theoretical and practical, that I and others have pointed out several times in this thread.

and I did try to readdress the clumsy phrasing of my original post and move on to a more general "make their racism public"-type of standpoint.

... which, if you're doing so deliberately within earshot of a black person you've decided is a suitable observer, still utilises said black person as a passive backdrop.

I also find it slightly dismaying that you seem to suggest black people would either respond violently or apathetically to a neighbouring conversation where one person is trying to make another address their racist beliefs; this is not the case in my experience.

Oh, fuck off. I don't believe you've enacted this scenario as I and GGM have outlined it - and if you have done so, intentionally loudly, in a situation where you are very much in the minority, then all I can say is you're very lucky to have encountered such understanding black people. If you tried the gay version of this anywhere around me, I'd think, "patronising fucking tosser" and leave you to it. Apathetic, no. Patronised, yes. Disgusted, probably.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
22:16 / 07.01.06
Haus, I was typing about Ganesh's earlier post:

Really? You put yourself into a context wherein you were surrounded by the objects of your educational 'challenge', then loudly repeated racist commentary? If you didn't get the shit kicked out of you, then I can only imagine that a) you won the 'observers' over through sheer force of persuasion, or b) they remained uninvolved or fucked off and left you to it (as would I).

I may be wrong, of course, but there seemed to be an undercurrent here which I felt needed addressing. If I've misinterpreted Ganesh: again, I apologise.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:17 / 07.01.06
Yeah, sorry - I misread that and then Ganesh posted in between, so just ignore those two posts of mine - I've asked for them to be deleted because they're just really confusing and pointless.
 
 
Ganesh
22:20 / 07.01.06
If I've misinterpreted Ganesh: again, I apologise.

You have: you've read "remained uninvolved" (in terms of not joining or intervening in a loud and contentious pub discussion of one's skin colour by people of another skin colour) as "apathetic". Not the same thing at all.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
22:29 / 07.01.06
I appreciate the response, PW, and this isn't aimed at you, but is a general point that I wanted to make from the issues under discussion here.

Persephone, talking about hearing a hate term for her ethnic group, described it as like being "stabbed in the eye". [..]there is no comparable term for you, because you are a white, straight man, it's hard to communicate it, no matter how many of your best friends are black/gay etc. I can sympathise - I've had the same cognitive dissonance myself.

Raising this again, and it may be o-t now, but I think it bears repeating. Earlier in this thread, Boboss and Stoatie both talk about something I'm very interested in:

When I was in my early late teens/early twenties it was quite common for people in my peer group (myself included) to make "ironic" racist, sexist and homophobic jokes. Looking back, I think we were doing more than simply taking the piss out of less enlightened mind sets, we were also - if not exclusively - enjoying transgressing the ethical boundaries we had set ourselves. We were getting off on the naughtiness in the way that only white, middle-class, hetero boys can.

It was phase that we grew out of, thank God.


Which is about context.

Talking (about talking about) hate-speech, whether it's for trangressive naughty thrills(prolly a good thing I didn't know you then, eh? ), or out of a desire to challenge bigotry, is a very different matter for those can be pretty sure that they aren't ever going to be the focus of it.

The game is very different if you(r sexuality, gender, race etc) are viewed as provocation for this kind of speech.

Like Persephone and Nesh, the background for me of this speech is a personal one of hatred and fear. The words for ethnicity and sexuality I've had thrown at me have been horrible. I've described the feeling as like being punched in the stomach, or stamped on.

I've been infuriated, wanted to punch people, felt faint, and cried, at different times in my life as a result of these worlds being thrown at me.

That's potential strength of the terms we're talking about here. Those are the stakes.
 
 
Cherielabombe
22:30 / 07.01.06
Congrats PW on realizing that what you said was not, as Xoc gently put it, "fully thought out." Now let it go.

While discussing and trying to deal with one's prejudices is a good idea, hurling hate speech about in a place where it will hurt the most is a bad idea. We know this and so do you. Leave it.

Now, Legba. I can understand why Loomis is so upset, but hey, you're young, it's a difficult time, you need friends, I can see how you ended up with this bunch. And why you started this thread, because it's hard to say goodbye to old friends, even if they are racist jerko friends. But as F Petey says, you already know in your heart what the right thing to do is.

Take it from me: life is too short to hang out with assholes. Surround yourself with intelligient,sensitive fun people who like you for you and you'll be alright. And good luck to ye!
 
 
Ganesh
22:36 / 07.01.06
Congrats PW on realizing that what you said was not, as Xoc gently put it, "fully thought out."

Yes. This topic has made me quite angry, but I should've taken a minute or two to say that I also appreciate that you've acknowledged some of the problems with what you proposed.

That's not sarcasm, incidentally.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
22:42 / 07.01.06
Agh. I'm also pretty angry, but I do appreciate the statements you've made on rethinking your position.

I still think there might be things to say on this, but I'm thinking that I'm tired and angry, and now might not be the best time to continue this.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
23:05 / 07.01.06
Cherielabombe, you're right. I'll leave it! Erm... that typed, Ganesh, I hope you don't mind but I'm about to send you a PM, just to clear up a few minor things (for my benefit, of course!)

Again, sorry people. I suppose that's why I love this place: one is forced to reassess and rethink. Indeed, I've come a long way since I joined -- seriously.

Thank you for being gracious in accepting my retraction.

I didn't want to make anybody angry. I swear!
 
 
Ganesh
23:12 / 07.01.06
I don't mind being PMed, but if it's the same scenario we've talked about in-thread, I'm not sure how many other ways I can fry it.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
00:08 / 08.01.06
I've been very angry, about a lot of things, for a very long time.
 
 
Ganesh
00:14 / 08.01.06
Good that you're spreading it around, Alex.
 
 
*
01:46 / 08.01.06
I suppose now that we've come to a conclusion about the dumping of said friends, it's a bad time to mention how frustrating it is when people use racism as an analogy for homophobia?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
02:31 / 08.01.06
I just want to play tennis in Switzerland with Peter Milligan, on the basis that he, Pete, might introduce me to George McFuck a bit later on, at the bar. Is that so wrong?
 
 
Char Aina
02:41 / 08.01.06
could you maybe disconect the key board for a bit, alex?
it could improve the barbelith experience for all...

LR, dude.
dump them.
how you dump them will be up to you and the situation, but i like the idea of sounding out the safest of the bunch if appropriate.

one point that should be made, loudly, is that you seem like a sound geezer and you have shit to offer, so new(cool/safe/uncunty) mates should be easily found.

show 'em yer dancin' tits, big man!
 
 
All Acting Regiment
06:47 / 08.01.06
Sounds like the plan to me. Apolgies Legba for the hijack but that really needed responding to.

No, I think it's been interesting, and like I said, this thread was for anyone involved in similar situ. Again, though, thanks everyone for your advice.

I'm not going to be as mawkish as to post updates about my new cool friends, but rest assured that there's plenty of uncunt fun planeed for the months ahead.
 
 
Cherielabombe
07:22 / 08.01.06
Aw, Legba, go ahead! Tell Auntie Cherry about your cool new friends! I'll be proud of you!

it's a bad time to mention how frustrating it is when people use racism as an analogy for homophobia?

Hmm. I suppose not. But I don't understand why it's so frustrating to you. Isn't it obvious that racism, homophobia, sexism and any other hateful prejudice you can think of are all inexorably intertwined? That, to some extent it's sort of all one struggle?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
08:48 / 08.01.06
But aren't the exact details a little different? I'm not quite sure how. Someone else can probably put it into words better than I can...
 
 
Seth
08:49 / 08.01.06
But remember not to bat an eyelid when they are just-the-right-degree-of racist, okay?

Petey: Consider other possible meanings of what I said that you haven't taken into account. What kind of effect were you trying to produce with the above?

I'll probably have a little more to say when I'm back from work.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
08:53 / 08.01.06
I think that comment of Petey's was quite obviously meant to highlight the fact that TW had been speaking against racism after being accused of it himself.
 
 
Loomis
08:59 / 08.01.06
I suppose now that we've come to a conclusion about the dumping of said friends, it's a bad time to mention how frustrating it is when people use racism as an analogy for homophobia?

I'm not sure it was being used as as a simple analogy. These chums of Legba's were guilty of both racism and homophobia and so strategies for dealing with their behaviour drew on examples of both.
 
 
Seth
09:18 / 08.01.06
I'm not sure it was quite obvious, Legba. I hope to see when Petey replies himself.

At the moment it seems to me to fulfil the purpose you meant, and also specifically uses one of the terms I used in my post. But it just might be coincidence, so I'm hoping he'll expand on it and set my mind at rest.
 
  

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