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Dumping A Friendship group

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15:39 / 07.01.06

Even better, kill them, cut them up, and feed them to the snails.

All Acting Regiment

15:43 / 07.01.06

Ganesh- absolutely. I'd like to stress again that when that was happening, I tried to stop them, but to no avail. In the end all I could do was remove myself from the group, but I still feel shitty about the fact that it happened at all.

16:27 / 07.01.06

LR;

With regard to the Canal Street incident (and without wishing to dwell on it particularly,) was it a case of your friends just running up and down the thing shouting about 'pooves' and such in general, or were they targeting specific individuals? I'm guessing the former, while not so good, would be just about borderline forgiveable, in the sense that it probably wasn't ruining anyone's evening, and might even have been considered quite funny by selfsame 'pooves,' albeit in a pretty bleak way. The latter situation, though, would be genuinely awful.

All Acting Regiment

16:34 / 07.01.06

As far as I know- and remember I didn't see this, so it's second hand from a boast- it was more of the former. I don't think any of them would have had the guts to actually confront someone face to face.

16:50 / 07.01.06

... and might even have been considered quite funny by selfsame 'pooves,' albeit in a pretty bleak way

Yeah, because it absolutely cracks me up when groups of heterosexual men do that in Compton Street. I guess at least there it's less likely than anywhere else in London that they're going to go on to kick me to death.

Sometimes 'bleak' goes beyond 'funny'.

paranoidwriter waves hello

17:21 / 07.01.06

Legba, I take it that as well as middle-class all these people are white and heterosexual? Are there any gay, black, or (say) Muslim members of the group, or on the periphery of the group? I only ask because one way of showing such people that their behaviour is unacceptable is to reframe it in another context, out of the "safety" and support of the group . e.g. when you're sitting in the University bar why don't you quote something racist they've said very loudly within ear-shot of (say) a black person: "What did you mean yesterday when you said black people are... [such and such]..."

It's an aggressive tactic than can have unpleasant results (so be careful), but I've found that often the embarrassment on the part of the (e.g) racist in such a situation often negates such attitudes as "hey, we're only kidding; lighten up, dude" and forces them to defend their bullshit beliefs and ultimately shows them for for what they truly are: dangerous idiots.

17:37 / 07.01.06

why don't you quote something racist they've said very loudly within ear-shot of (say) a black person

Eh, because (say) a black person hearing this racism will still have to listen to that crap, even if uttered from your morally superior lips, only as a learning aide. Will make no difference to (say) a black person, sitting innocently nearby.

I don't think you've thought this one through.

paranoidwriter waves hello

17:45 / 07.01.06

"Morally superior lips"? Xoc, give me a break, will ya? It was only a suggestion. I'm not the bad guy here.

17:48 / 07.01.06

Well, I feel like a bit of an asshole having read this thread... I've dumped a number of friends for far less important reasons. In fact, some of them were perfectly nice people, but we grew apart and shared too few interests to remain friends. In my experience, heartless though it now seems by comparison, dumping friends is actually pretty easy. You just stop calling, and decline all invitations. You don't even need an excuse, just "I think I'm going to stay in tonight, thanks anyway." Anyone with a molecule of social skills will pick up what you're putting down eventually. I've also been dumped this way by a few friends, and it's not all that devastating - usually you realize your friendship was pretty frayed and they've done it a kindness by letting it unravel.

I've also severed friendships the ugly way, by letting loose with all the bile I'd pent up for those people. But that's basically just venting for venting's sake, and it doesn't even feel all that good, even when it's totally justified. Go for it if you really want to, but it's surely not necessary. Those people aren't going to stop being racist, homophobic fuckheads if you yell at them - more likely they'd just laugh/rant about you to each other later.

17:51 / 07.01.06

Dr G;

Yes, fair enough, my apologies etc. I was thinking more about the particular way Canal Street's set up, whereby, if memory serves, it's pretty much encouraged for the punters to stand out on the pub balcony a floor or so above the street below, and watch the people go by. In that context alone, I'd imagine it would be entertaining-ish to watch a bunch of pissed-up middle class white dreads (in both senses,) making terrible fools of themselves on the strip.

17:52 / 07.01.06

I'm not the bad guy here.

No, but to the hypothetical black person in your suggested scenario, you'd be a "bad guy" because you'd be loudly reiterating racist crap within a group of people sitting nearby.

17:56 / 07.01.06

In that context alone, I'd imagine it would be entertaining-ish to watch a bunch of pissed-up middle class white dreads (in both senses,) making terrible fools of themselves on the strip.

Possibly - in a 'they can't actually get up here and kick the fuck out of me' way. Even there, though, the safe spaces wouldn't be especially safe, and groups of heterosexual males shouting about "poofs" are rarely so devoid of any element of threat that they'd be considered unequivocally funny. After all, they may be hanging around the bus stop when the time comes to go home.

18:00 / 07.01.06

Wise up, pw. How is (say) a black person sitting innocently in a bar supposed to know the difference between a racist coming out with offensive crap or you repeating the racist crap for instructional purposes? Does this black person agree ahead of time to sit there listening to this or are you going to find a black person who has no feelings?

By morally superior, I meant that your lips would be saying objectionable racist things but only to promote the moral Good and a black person within earshot is somehow immune from offence because of this, in your scenario.

I don't suppose you are "the bad guy" but, as I said, you haven't thought it through. You would look like and sound like one to me, were I within earshot.

paranoidwriter waves hello

18:01 / 07.01.06

Not necessarily. I see what you mean, but doesn't this suggest that white people shouldn't discuss the racist attitudes of a friend within ear-shot of black people? Racism is an issue that most (if not all) black people have to face on a daily basis. Maybe overhearing a frank and open discussion about attitudes to race might be more refreshing than thinking people are harbouring racist thoughts behind closed doors?

paranoidwriter waves hello

18:03 / 07.01.06

Oh, and please note: I did suggest caution and there's a difference between saying something racist and asking somebody to explain something they've said which is racist.

18:09 / 07.01.06

PW, there's a difference between discussing someone's racism and simply quoting them loudly within earshot of someone from the stigmatised group. In both cases, however, you're using a handy nearby black person not as an individual participant in your discussion but as a convenient passive audience, a sort of representative of 'blackness'.

Don't you see this as in any way problematic? Quite apart from the crassness - and, arguably, faint racism - of using a nearby "black guy" in this way, you're also assuming that a lone individual will not feel in any way threatened by the fact that a larger group of non-black people are talking loudly - and quite possibly contentiously - about racism right beside him. If I'm sitting in a pub and a group of blokes nearby start bellowing about "poofs", I generally don't stick around to see whether there's an educational seminar taking place.

18:12 / 07.01.06

there's a difference between saying something racist and asking somebody to explain something they've said which is racist.

Cross-posted with me. In your first post, however, you suggested "very loudly" quoting something racist that someone else has said previously. To the passive, objectified observer you've selected as your audience, the fine distinction may not be apparent.

paranoidwriter waves hello

18:18 / 07.01.06

I understand what you mean, and you have a valid point about passively using a black person at a nearby table. Forgive me, maybe I was a little clumsy in my phrasing, etc. I suppose the point I'm trying to get across is that I doubt Legba's friends are as forthright in their opinions in public. i.e. going from Legba's further desciption of what actually happened on Canal Street. Also, where I live I'm surrounded by people of all faiths, creeds, sexualities (etc), so to have such a public discussion about race would inevitably be overheard by people who aren't white, heterosexual, and middle-class.

All Acting Regiment

18:18 / 07.01.06

I think in that scenario, the possible positive effect on the white racist is outweighed by the likely negative effect on the black guy.

paranoidwriter waves hello

18:20 / 07.01.06

... To the passive, objectified observer you've selected as your audience, the fine distinction may not be apparent. ...

Fair point. I did, however, also type: "What did you mean yesterday when you said black people are... [such and such]..."

ONLY NICE THINGS

18:24 / 07.01.06

Which bit of the clarification about Canal Street, pw? He said that as far as he understands it they wandered down Canal Street shouting homophobic abuse at people. In what sense is that not being as forthright in public?

paranoidwriter waves hello

18:31 / 07.01.06

Sorry, Haus. I slightly misunderstood Legba's post:

As far as I know- and remember I didn't see this, so it's second hand from a boast- it was more of the former. I don't think any of them would have had the guts to actually confront someone face to face.

I took this to mean they were "joking around"; that while (IMHO) they were being offensive, they were clouding their intentions with mock-hilarity, so that to others on Canal Street it might not have been clear as to what they were actually doing.

I was obviously wrong. Apologies.

18:32 / 07.01.06

I did, however, also type: "What did you mean yesterday when you said black people are... [such and such]..."

... which rather assumes that the hypothetical black person is a) paying proper attention to the conversation at the next table, and b) is aware of the context ie. knows you're not simply repeating some sort of racist in-joke for the purposes of making him feel uncomfortable.

paranoidwriter waves hello

18:36 / 07.01.06

Ganesh, the point is NOT that the black person can hear; it's that the spotlight is placed firmly on the racist and that fear they might be overheard. Being misheard is a risk with any conversation.

18:41 / 07.01.06

Ganesh, the point is NOT that the black person can hear; it's that the spotlight is placed firmly on the racist and that fear they might be overheard. Being misheard is a risk with any conversation.

Yesss, and in placing that spotlight "firmly on the racist", you ignore the possible effect of you repeating the racist crap "very loudly" on those nearby individuals you've selectively objectified as the non-speaking extras in your production.

paranoidwriter waves hello

18:50 / 07.01.06

So one shouldn't discuss racism with racists in ear-shot of those in a racial minority because you might offend them?

Don't get me wrong, I see your point, really I do, and I was wrong to phrase my point the way I did. However, racism is here and black people know it; so compared to the racist abuse black people can face in their daily lives, is overhearing a conversation where one person is trying to make another address racist attitudes such a bad thing?

ONLY NICE THINGS

18:52 / 07.01.06

Yeah... if the area you live in is sufficiently racially mixed that you can't avoid having people overhear conversations in which racism is discussed in public, the answer might be not to hve that conversation in public. It introduces a lot of elements outside your control - for example, how much of the conversation the people around you overhear and understand of the conversation (they probably won't be listening in until you actually say the word), and how they will react to what they do hear - either in terms of direct action, or of how they feel about having the terms thrown about in their earshot by a bunch of white guys.

It's a difficult situation, but we're back to whether the important thing here is showing these hypothetical black people that you, personally, are lovely and non-racist by challenging racist attitudes on the part of somebody else which they would not otherwise have had to encounter.

19:03 / 07.01.06

So one shouldn't discuss racism with racists in ear-shot of those in a racial minority because you might offend them?

I think it's a wise precaution - particularly when said discussion consists of "very loudly" repeating racist comments in an attempt to shame the originator of those comments.

Again. I see two problems with this approach. One is theoretical: in deliberately using your hypothetical black person in this way, you're reducing him to a 'representative of blackness' - which is, in itself, arguably a racist thing to do. You're not, after all, inviting him into the discussion to make his own points, should he choose to do so (you've also ensured that he's outnumbered here, so already he's become a token). He's not a participant, he's a passive observer. You've reduced him to his skin colour.

The second problem is practical. You're loudly reiterating racist commentary (with a framing "didn't you say", which may not be heard or understood) within earshot of someone who may well perceive himself to be the object of said commentary. As I say, if I were in a gay bar and a load of straight blokes at the next table started challenging each other on homophobic comments, I might feel pissed off, patronised or threatened. If it happened in a straight pub, I wouldn't wait around to discover the context. Your hypothetical black guy is not a participant, he's a passive observer. He may not be interested. He may not want to hear this shit. You don't know, because you haven't asked him. You're using him as a backdrop. He may not want to be a backdrop.

Doesn't this bother you at all?

19:05 / 07.01.06

And yeah, as Haus says, I probably wouldn't tune in until I heard the word "poof" - so I'd probably miss the 'no poofs have been harmed in the making of this critique of homophobia' bit at the start.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

19:15 / 07.01.06

What a strange turn this thread's taken. Can people honestly not imagine that it might be offensive, downright frightening, and generally fucked up to do something like this? Imagine being down the pub, reading your paper or whatever, and suddenly being aware of a group of people nearby slinging a sexual or ethnic slur around like that--how the fuck would you feel?

paranoidwriter waves hello

19:15 / 07.01.06

Ganesh, you're right about reducing someone to their skin colour, although I thought I'd already acknowledged my fault in phrasing my initial post on this subject. I didn't mean that one shoudld single out a nearby black person as your audience; I meant that these racist cowards should be forced to defend their belifs in public. I suppose my point is that white people can sit around in private and have discussions about race all they like, but in the real world, a world where black people sit within ear-shot, what racists say is more likely to be exposed as bullshit as they have to face the people they are offending.

As I say, if I were in a gay bar and a load of straight blokes at the next table started challenging each other on homophobic comments, I might feel pissed off, patronised or threatened.

Really? The fact that others are challenging homophobic comments wouldn't have any affect on you at all?

paranoidwriter waves hello

19:20 / 07.01.06

{Quick note: I've got to leave my computer for a few hours, so there will be a delay in any further responses I might make in this thread -- I just don't want ya'll to think I'm being ignorant or rude.]

19:27 / 07.01.06

Really? The fact that others are challenging homophobic comments wouldn't have any affect on you at all?

It would have an effect on me, as I've made clear. Chances are, I'd begin to listen in on the conversation when I heard the word "poof" - or "faggot" or "queer" or "bum-bandit" or whatever - spoken "loudly" at the next table. I'd be anxious straightoff, especially if a) there was a group of males arguing, or b) this was taking place in a setting which wasn't specifically my 'safe space' ie. a gay bar.

On the off-chance that I'd been sitting there rapt enough to understand the context (and I knew these guys weren't simply rehearsing some arsehole in-joking homophobic crap for other reasons) then I'd still feel anxious, because hearing the terms listed above spoken loudly by groups of heterosexual males in any context makes me feel apprehensive. I'd think 'arseholes' and I'd probably make an exit. I certainly wouldn't feel appreciative of the guy doing the challenging. I'd think he were a tactless fuckwit.

19:30 / 07.01.06

Yeah. If I realised the guy doing the 'challenging' were doing so in that environment because I was listening, I'd feel patronised. Forced into the role of Everygay audience. If, as is more likely, I didn't realise this, I'd feel anxious, frightened, possibly threatened. As I say, I'd leave.

19:35 / 07.01.06

Might I suggest, PW, that if you're ever in the situation of truly wanting to provide a sobering backdrop for discussion of racism, you head to one of the 'blacker' pubs down Brixton way, where your entire group is outnumbered by those whose colour you're discussing? I feel this would force all and sundry to raise their game. Those around you might even be willing to join your loud, "frank and open" discussion of racism...

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