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Is Bush the figurehead for Christianity?

 
  

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Lurid Archive
16:08 / 06.12.05
I'm starting this thread after some comments in the Narnia film thread discussing an article by Polly Toynbee. Jack Fear and Seth didn't think much of the article and its criticisms of christianity, which is summarised by Jack as saying that "Christianity is a horrible pack of sadistic, fascist lies anyway".

Although he has a point, I disagreed and said that "Toynbee ...particularly dislikes the triumphalist version of christianity depicted by Lewis...She thinks it is an attempt to ditch all the compassion from christianity so that all one has left is a celebration of the great and the good and a moral clarity that means one's battles are always righteous."

Jack Fear responded that the conflation of "her anti-Christian sentiment with her anti-American sentiment— [is] excessively glib". And that got me wondering. It is certainly the case that Christianity is complex and varied and comes in more than 52 flavours. But from that, one can pull out various strands to either criticise or praise or simply comment on based on one's perception of dominant movements. While this may often be glib, it is also a fairly human trait and I wonder if part of what Toynbee has done is taken as a model of "Christian" none other than President Bush. This also remineded me of a link a (christian) friend of mine gave me to this article a while back,

Three quarters of Americans believe the Bible teaches that “God helps those who help themselves.”

moaning that "america gives real christianity a bad name". Apart from making me wonder whether the No True Scotsman fallacy kicks in, it makes me want to ask: to what extent do people think of a certain brand of right wing politics and social conservatism when they hear the word "Christian"? To what extent do christians here feel that the perception of their religion is distorted? And is that distortion mostly a product of outsiders' ignorance?

Is this satire, or sad truth?

 
 
Tryphena Absent
18:10 / 06.12.05
part of what Toynbee has done is taken as a model of "Christian" none other than President Bush

Toynbee focuses quite intently on figures like Jeb Bush so I would say it's quite evident that Bush's brand of christianity and indeed the religion that is introducing creationism into science lessons in the US is what is really being criticised here.

to what extent do people think of a certain brand of right wing politics and social conservatism when they hear the word "Christian"?

I think this is a difficult question because the associations we make with regards to religion are always based on our own bias. Mine is towards atheism and I genuinely believe that people who follow organised religion are investing in fantasy that they need for a complex personal reason. I understand that some people will be insulted by that but my intention here is to be honest as I like quite a lot of Christians individually. I associate the word "Christian" with over-simplification rather than the right wing, that has been my basic experience of a religion that has tried to attract me by over-simplifying social issues and ignoring some of the most fundamental contemporary perceptions of sexuality and class that I recognise as being of primary importance.
So social conservatism is definitely something that I see in Christianity.

is that distortion mostly a product of outsiders' ignorance?

Since there is no one church, since most Christians will primarily talk about their individual interpretation of the religion I would hesitantly propose that the distortion comes from within the religion as a whole rather than from the outside. If you can't find a Christianity to suit you specifically than you can't really regard one type of Christianity as more fundamental than any other and that leads to immediate contradiction and thus a distortion through comparison of the different brands of the religion.
 
 
grant
20:20 / 06.12.05
n.b. - Jeb Bush's Christianity isn't exactly the same as Dubya's. If I recall correctly, Jeb converted to Catholicism, while Dubya slid off the fundamentalist side of Methodism. Many of Dubya's muscular Christian supporters would think of Jeb and his family as Hell-bound idolators.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:03 / 07.12.05
Now that I didn't know. I wonder if Toynbee does?
 
 
sdv (non-human)
12:59 / 07.12.05
Whilst it's obvious that christianity like all religions is not necessarily 'right-wing' in it's political support. It does have distinctly reactionary tendencies, for example it's relationship to the body, the state, power and knowledge. However even allowing for the possibility that a left-wing christianity that supports the under-priviliged and the oppressed against the interests of 'god' and 'power' might exist. (The same should be said about islam etc...)

In the USA it seems undeniable that christianity has entered into an allaince with extreme right-wing tendencies, which are deeply imperialistic. I find it curious that in Lurid's introduction Jack Fear seems to be in denial that modern day christianity and american imperialism are linked.

The Retort collective's book 'afflicted powers' is good on this - there is also a liberal american critique of fundamentalism 'the end of faith' by sam harris... which is excellent...
 
 
Jack Fear
13:10 / 07.12.05
Of course not. I'm sure that for Polly Toynbee, as for many public atheists, a Christian is a Christian is a Christian. But Christianity's like the TARDIS—it's a lot bigger on the inside than it looks from the outside: and the different strands of Christianity have different models of relating to the world, and motivate their followers in different ways.

George W. Bush is a member of no congregation, and rarely if ever even attends church. His operating model is thus entirely personal, and entirely idiosyncratic. As I talked about a little in this long-ago thread, there's no overriding organized theology guiding him, just his one-on-one relationship with his good pal Jesus, who (surprisingly enough) never, ever disagrees with him.

Sympathetic agnostics may say they don't have a problem with Christianity per se, but they distrust "organized religion." The Bush dilemma flips the script on this. The man is famously "Christian," yes, but entirely unchurched. There's no strongly doctrinal and hierarchical organization to put the brakes on his worst impulses, to pull him up short when his personal morality strays from Christian teachings.

No rebuke from a bishop or a pope can rein him in. He's gone rogue. What we really need is a good organized Inquisition to take him down.
 
 
Jack Fear
13:22 / 07.12.05
sdv: However even allowing for the possibility that a left-wing christianity that supports the under-priviliged and the oppressed against the interests of 'god' and 'power' might exist...

Gee, you think? A religion founded by followers of a guy who hung out with and defended the dregs of society, in a region under military occupation by a hostile foreign power, who railed against the corrupt and censorious established church of his day, who...

Godamighty, boy, where've you been for the last 2000 years?
 
 
Jack Fear
13:47 / 07.12.05
Yeah, but why blame Christianity for that? I mean, to echo Lurid's opening salvo in this thread, apparently many folks believe that Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto says that chnage must come about by violent revolution, and that it's a swell idea to line up landowners and shoot them in the head, encourage children to rat out their parents, sentence badthinkers to hard labor in gulags, declare Year Zero, rape nuns, and force people to eat human flesh. Is Pol Pot the figurehead for Marxism? Is Stalin the figurehead for Marxism?

Fuck no. Marx is the figurehead for Marxism—for Marxists, anyway—and if any reactionary sonofabitch tries to say that socialism is intrinsically evil based on the horrendous historical examples cited above, the Marxist can always reply that those weren't true Marxist regimes, that his principles have never been accurately put into action and that it'd be a different story if people would actually act in accordance with the actual doctrine of Marxism.

And they're right.

Now replace all occurences of Marx and Marxism in the above sentences with Jesus and Christianity.

Honestly; George Bush is a Christian like Pol Pot was a Marxist. That is to say: a deluded maniac flying a flag of convenience.
 
 
Jack Fear
13:49 / 07.12.05
(The above in response to a now-sadly-deleted Petey Shaftoe post, which, though a tad on the snarky side, nonetheless raised a legitimate issue, and one I'm perfectly willing to engage.)
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:04 / 07.12.05
What I'd said was that sdv could have been observing the words and deeds of significant chunk of actual existing Christians for the past 2000 years... I probably shouldn't have deleted it, really.
 
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
14:16 / 07.12.05
Jack Fear: Yes, certainly, but a better example might be Stalin (rather than Marx) as a figurehead for Marxism equating with gwBush (rather than, er, Jesus) as a figurehead for Christianity: both are high-profile leader scum publically espousing an ideology which their actions belie. An awful lot of people dismiss Marxism/Communism/socialism(?) as a valid ideology because they see Stalinist Russia as its end result. I don't think it's unreasonable to figure Bush Jr as a "figurehead for (modern) Christianity" - he is sort of one of the most (in)famous people in the world, and his professed Christianity is a major part of his public persona. In fact, it would be fairly difficult for Bush not to become some sort of figurehead for Christianity, given his position and the fact that he talks publically about how his foreign policy comes directly from God.


Honestly; George Bush is a Christian like Pol Pot was a Marxist. That is to say: a deluded maniac flying a flag of convenience.


Of course, but this doesn't mean he can't be a figurehead for Christianity, which does appear to be what has happened. After all, you can give an ideology a bad name, as he has, in many quarters, done.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:42 / 07.12.05
Oh, agreed. I think, though, that you'd have to answer the question "Is GW Bush the figurehead for Christianity?" with another question: To whom?

By his words and actions he creates a perception: but the impact of that has to do (as in most things) with who's doing the perceiving, and what baggage they bring to the process.

Polly Toynbee, for example, seems predisposed to think the worst of "Christianity" as she defines it, seems predisposed to think the worst of George W. Bush (as well she might), notes that George Bush self-identifies as a Christian, and so sees George Bush as a symbol of "Christianity" as she defines it. It's all a bit post hoc ergo propter hoc for my liking.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:46 / 07.12.05
Not so much a figurehead, then - that is, something that stands at the front of the something and is the first thing people see when that something is approaching - as a representative, whether that representation is accurate or not. As JF says, Bush's Christianity is not church-based; as a representation of what actual Christian doctrine (or dogma) is on any given issue, he's going to be a bit shaky - but then, he does represent a form of doctrinally heterodox protestantism in which the language of belief complements and is complemented by personal conviction, wherever that language of belief comes from (a house worship session, a Chick tract, one's own personal relationship with Jesus).

As a counterbalance to Christianity as represented by a single person, and one preoccupied with maintaining the interests of power, coudl we maybe look at liberation theology, for example?
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:42 / 07.12.05
Is Pol Pot the figurehead for Marxism? Is Stalin the figurehead for Marxism?

I'm glad you brought that up, JF, because I was thinking pretty much the same thing when I was writing the intro. My thoughts are, however, different from yours in that I don't think the answer is clear cut. I know plenty of people who are broadly sympathetic to Marx, yet who feel that certain terms are essentially beyond redemption. This is most apparent for "communist" and perhaps rather less so for "Marxist" and least of all for "socialist" (after all, even Blair has managed to support "Social"-ism).

There comes a point where one's broad sympathies with a body of thought are outweighed by the negative associations, even if one can argue that in some ideal sense the associations aren't true to the spirit. Of course, to ask if Bush is the figurehead for Christianity is a bit silly, if taken literally. But I think asking whether (I suppose largely due to the US), Christianity is often received as reactionary is valid.

Now, on one level, my old Jesuit teachers would have had no trouble dismissing such a challenge on the grounds that we are talking about a blip. Things change, after all, and they might argue that it is more important to keep the ideal alive. They might even have pointed to liberation theology - to pick up Haus point - as an excellent example of a Christianity, a Catholicism even, which is concerned with social justice. Having said that, on another level, the question I am asking was of great concern to the Jesuits I knew. In fact, the ones who were most sympathetic to liberation theology were also the most concerned that *despite* this rich theology, the Catholic church is seen as primarily and absurdly concerned with opposing the use of contraceptives.

One could say that the situation is a little different, given that the Pope actually *is* the head of the Catholic Church, but given that liberation theology is catholic I'm not sure its that easy.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
18:50 / 07.12.05
This is something I've been thinking about a lot the last couple of days, as I'm currently reading Every Knee Shall Bow, a book about Randy Weaver, and had a great conversation with my mother (a devout Anglican) today about the more negative aspects of, well, not Christianity as such, more some "Christians".

Of course, Weaver's kind of an extreme example, having made the unpleasant leap from Christianity to Christian Identity, but what struck me in (what is admittedly only one account of the events) the book is that for all the quoted examples of his preaching and proselytising, redemption never seems to get a look-in.

As a lapsed Christian, but having been brought up by Christians (my dad was a vicar), this seems weird, as I always got the impression that Christianity was all about the redemption and the forgiveness- both things that seem absent in the "Christian Right", and in the brand of Christianity espoused by Mr Bush. Someone could probably correct me on this, but my take is that without these things it's not Christianity. Not the kind I was raised in, at any rate. Which I guess comes back to the point of Christianity being (for want of a better phrase) a broad church.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
19:00 / 07.12.05
Deadly...

"...A religion founded by followers of a guy who hung out with and defended the dregs of society..."

Really ? You speak as if 'Jesus' was the author, the founder of a religion - rather than just the mythical figure who was used to establish a religion that rapidly became one of the main ideologies in support of the state for close to 2000 years. Personally I don't think it's fair to blame modern christianity (one specific reactionary religion) rather than to blame all religions equally, however that would be foolish when the actual problem is closer to: "The beliefs of the Jim jones and Osama Bin Ladens of this world are a significant part of the problem of violence in the 21st C. At least equally significant is the evangelical zeal with which 'free trade', liberal democracy and American hegemony are offered to - or forced upon a hungrey world..." (Cavanaugh)

All Saint Bush is doing is to obey the two imperatives...
 
 
Jack Fear
20:02 / 07.12.05
You speak as if 'Jesus' was the author, the founder of a religion...

Read the passage you quoted again: "A religion founded by followers of..."

...modern christianity (one specific reactionary religion)...

As pointed out above, it is a fallacy to speak of "modern Christianity" as monolithic and necessarily reactionary. Christianity is in fact many different religions, with many different worldviews—and that's just the organized sects, not counting the theological free agents like George Bush.

All Saint Bush is doing is to obey the two imperatives...

Frankly, I'd say his primary interest is in the second, secular imperative, and he's using his self-identified, idiosyncratic, answerable-to-no-one-but-God "Christianity" as a smokescreen.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
21:23 / 07.12.05
fear...

Sorry your quite right, I misunderstood in that i assumed that because you were using the proper name of Jesus that you thought he existed, in the sense of a person who could be identified and consequently identified with christian ideology.

I was using the term religion as a plural not referring to christianity as if the term has ever referred to a singular sect (only a christian can say 'my religion' as a reference to her specific sect, a non-christian can refer to the plurality of christian sects as religion a pluralism). I do not think that it helps your case when you are imply that the various sects are not different branches off the same christian and ultimately monotheistic (Zorastrian?) root.

Religion and all religious institutions have been fundamentally reactionary since the 17th century. This does not mean that individuals and groups within the various sects are necessarily reactionary, merely that christiantity like all other types of religion has been reactionary since then... Could a sect be considered as not-reactionary - just because it is on the side of the poor and oppressed, even though it is propogating extremely bad ideas within the community it supposedly supports - i don't think so but i can see how one might.

Faith is such a bad idea...
 
 
sdv (non-human)
21:30 / 07.12.05
fear...

I forgot to say that I'm sure you are correct, i also think Bush is using religion to justify his social and political agenda. But this is not a secular imperative nor is it a recent invention - religion has had that function since it was invented in forms that we would recognize as mythical/religious along with the city-state...

I am thinking of georges dumezil's classic works on this function. Deleuze and Guattari refer to this in ATP as well...
 
 
Jack Fear
21:35 / 07.12.05
Faith is such a bad idea...

Unpack, please.
 
 
Seth
04:45 / 08.12.05
Jack Fear and Seth didn't think much of the article and its criticisms of christianity

I had no strong opinions on the article. It was just a daft Muscular Christian joke.

I'm trying avoid discussions on this kind of subject matter until I can have them without knee-jerking, so I'll bow out here.
 
 
Loomis
12:41 / 09.12.05
The man is famously "Christian," yes, but entirely unchurched. There's no strongly doctrinal and hierarchical organization to put the brakes on his worst impulses, to pull him up short when his personal morality strays from Christian teachings.

No rebuke from a bishop or a pope can rein him in. He's gone rogue. What we really need is a good organized Inquisition to take him down.


I think this approach is misleading. There are plenty of Christians who do subscribe to an organised religion with bishops and churches who nonetheless present a "Christianity" that is about maintaining middle class conservative values. Belonging to a church doesn't stop people from living lives in opposition to the teachings of Jesus, so I don't see how Bush is any more a rogue than most mainstream Christians who walk on the other side of the street from a homeless person.

I'm not sure if you're joking or not about the usefulness of a pope being able to rebuke a world leader. If a homophobic misogynist mass-murdering billionaire rebuked me, I'd consider it a sign that I was on the right track. Do you honestly believe that religious hierarchy keeps Christians closer to the teachings of Christ?

And as an interesting aside regarding the non-orthodox nature of a personal relationship with Christ, perhaps we should remember that Christianity was founded by a guy who believed that Jesus appeared to him on the road to Damascus. Was Paul’s desire to found Christianity unChristian because it didn’t conform to the teachings of his religious leaders?

Is Bush’s belief that God told him to invade Iraq any less scriptural than the instances in scripture of God telling kings to invade other countries? Do you believe one and not the other?
 
 
sdv (non-human)
16:30 / 09.12.05
Paul Tillich tried to reconstruct faith as the spirtual principle that transcends communally motivated creduality. He attempts to remove any idolatrous faith and any false relations between faith and belief. Basically like Tillich I reject faith as "any act of knowledge that has a low degree of evidence" - faith = no evidence. This is a different concept from belief which has supporting evidence.

Religious faith is unjustified belief without any supporting evidence...
 
 
Evil Scientist
18:13 / 09.12.05
I reject faith as "any act of knowledge that has a low degree of evidence"

Weird. Sounds a lot like my belief system. Should we be scared SDV?
 
 
sdv (non-human)
13:03 / 12.12.05
laughs, I wondered if you'd notice - (...now if only I could get you to see that notions of superiority are philosophically and scientifically nonsensical...)
 
 
Dead Megatron
20:21 / 13.12.05
Is Bush’s belief that God told him to invade Iraq any less scriptural than the instances in scripture of God telling kings to invade other countries? Do you believe one and not the other?

Actually, I believe in none of them. Every ruler who used God, any god, as an excuse for their wars was lying their asses off. Even those in the Bible.

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? (Matthew 5, 44-47)

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22, 36-40)

In my opinion, true followers of the Man from Nazareth should pay attention to those parts of the Bible above all others...
 
 
Loomis
08:20 / 14.12.05
The Old Testament is a very big stumbling block for Christianity (and Judaism, obviously). It's full of things that contradict church views. Sex, killing, it has it all. Even Samson praying to God for strength to pull down the temple and kill the philistines along with himself. Obviously God approves of suicide bombing.
 
 
Dead Megatron
20:04 / 14.12.05
The Old Testament is a very big stumbling block for Christianity (and Judaism, obviously). It's full of things that contradict church views. Sex, killing, it has it all. Even Samson praying to God for strength to pull down the temple and kill the philistines along with himself. Obviously God approves of suicide bombing.

Yeah, but the Nazarene said he came to bring a "new law" (I don't remember the exact words or Bible part right now), so everything in the Old Testament should be disregarded, in my opinion - and I know it's kind of a unusual view for a Christian.

In fact, I only care for the Gospels (including the apocryph ones) the Acts, and the Epistles. Even the Book of Revelations is a big piece of crap, written by some guy on a very bad mushroom trip. The apocalypitcs looove to quote that book, as well as the psalms, and at the same time seem to forget all about the previous ones (you know, the parts that talk about compasion, understanding, and forgiveness)
 
 
Loomis
08:20 / 15.12.05
Matthew 5:17-18

"Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these Commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:09 / 15.12.05
I think it's "new Covenant" you mean, Dead Megatron-

(also Matthew) 26:28... For this is my blood of the new Covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

I tend to take the same view as you- the New Testament is where Christianity springs from (well, what with Christ and everything)- the Old Testament is just backstory. Were I to teach someone about Christianity who'd never heard of it before, I probably wouldn't bother with much, if any, of the Old Testament. At least not to begin with.

Certainly the forgiveness and redemption stuff, which to me is what it's all about, contradicts ("contradicts" is perhaps the wrong word... "disagrees with") a lot of the Old Testament. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" wouldn't have gone down too well at a Leviticus party, for a start.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:52 / 15.12.05
From my agnostic/atheist viewpoint it seems to me that large chunks of the Christian faith aren't taking the Old Testament as back story, they're taking it as active doctrine. Has this been there from the start? Where does this largely but not exclusively American Christian Conservatism come from? Why do 75% of them think the message of the Bible is "God helps those who help themselves"?

(Anyone who wants the Harpers Magazine article let me know and I can pass it on)
 
 
Jack Fear
18:19 / 15.12.05
Why do 75% of them think the message of the Bible is "God helps those who help themselves"?

For the same reason, I'd wager, that so many self-styled revolutionaries think the message of The Communist Manifesto is "Up against the wall, motherfuckers."

To wit: human beings are violent, selfish, xenophobic little bastards, and we want our doctrines to reflect us—even if we have to wilfully misinterpret them to make them fit.

There's never been an idea so noble that mankind hasn't been able to twist it to serve a petty end. Some lend themselves to twisting moreso than others, 'tis true: but human nature always finds a way to assert itself, no matter what attempts are made to improve it.
 
 
grant
18:36 / 15.12.05
Where does American Conservative Christianity come from? In large part, it comes from the rise of fundamentalism around the turn of the 19th century. The movement got its name from The Fundamentals: A Testimony to the Truth, which was a series of pamphlets published during the second decade of the 20th century.

You might find this one most pertinent to the relationship between conservative Christians and the Old Testament. The first paragraph of that essay:
Both Jews and Christians receive the Old Testament as containing a revelation from God, while the latter regard it as standing in close and vital relationship to the New Testament. Everything connected with the Old Testament has, of recent years, been subjected to the closest scrutiny--the authorship of its several books, the time when they were written, their style, their historical value, their religious and ethical teachings. Apart from the veneration with which we regard the Old Testament writings on their own account, the intimate connection which they have with the Christian Scriptures necessarily gives us the deepest interest in the conclusions which may be reached by Old Testament criticism. For us the New Testament Dispensation presupposes and grows out of the Mosaic, so the books of the New Testament touch those of the Old at every point: In vetere testamento novum latet, et in novo vetus patet. (In the Old Testament the New is concealed, and in the New the Old is revealed.)

In part, there's this elevation of the Old Testament because Christianity has wanted from the beginning to be seen as the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies & promises. (Just not the one most people expected.) Fundamentalism has always wanted to "restore" the faith to the earliest possible precepts, without all the folderol and madness of modernism and liberal theology.

This is also a recapitulation of the Lutheran Reformation, which was built around cutting through accreted centuries of tradition and getting to the essential nature of Christianity as revealed only through God's grace (sola gratia), understood only by faith (sola fides) and present only in the inspired words of scripture (sola scriptura).
 
 
Jack Fear
22:43 / 15.12.05
In part, there's this elevation of the Old Testament because Christianity has wanted from the beginning to be seen as the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies & promises.

This is important, I think, because it points to the beginning of Fundamentalist overreaching—of the way that it wants to point to Christianity as the fulfillment of everything: "Whatever the question," the bumpersticker says, "Jesus is the answer."

And so Fundamentalists expand Christianity into all sorts of areas, trying to make it the answer all life's questions. Fundamentalist Christianity becomes a political philosophy and a social policy. Fundamentalist Christianity is a weight-loss method, a cure for drunkenness, a school of psychology, a field of ethics, a branch of archaeology. With the Left Behind books, Christianity becomes escapist pulp entertainment. If you're a teenager, Fundamentalist Christianity is a birth-control method: if you're trying to get pregnant, it's a fertility treatment.

It's only a logical conclusion, then, that Fundamentalist Christianity should want to be accepted as science—to finally find a way to provide the answers to the questions that it cannot yet answer.

Of course, in trying to be all things to all people, the thing gets coopted...
 
 
Dead Megatron
11:33 / 16.12.05
Of course, in trying to be all things to all people, the thing gets coopted...

The thing gets fucked up big time, that's what the thing does.

And I think the problem is not the Christianity that tries to be all things to all people, it's the Christianity that tries to be one overwhelming thing above all other things to a very restricted group of people, like, say, North-american misoginistic homophobic biggot powermongering white men, that scares the hell out of me (pun intended)
 
  

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