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Trans people and queer people: Working together and working apart

 
 
*
03:26 / 06.12.05
One prominent issue facing trans people and queer people right now is how the T in LGBT organizations should be articulated. Obviously not all trans people are lesbian, gay, or bisexual, and not all of us spend much time in the queer community either before or after transitioning. For this reason, some trans people (generally straight trans people) advocate separating trans issues from LGB issues altogether. Some LGB people concur, asserting that linking trans issues with LGB issues confuses the straight public and makes them think that all gays and lesbians are gender-variant in some way.

One variant on this position is articulated here. (Transparency: I disagree with the linked editorial, and I'm posting it for precisely that reason. I don't intend to use it as a straw man, though; if someone can find better examples, please quote/link to them.)

On the other hand, many trans people are queer precisely because of our transness. If I were not transitioning maleward, my preference for men would make me (mostly) heterosexual, not queer. And many trans people spent a great deal of time in the lesbian and gay communities and never cease identifying with these communities even after they transition, whether they then participate in relationships best categorized as heterosexual or not.

It is also argued (transparency: including, occasionally, by me) that prejudice against queer people is also wrapped up in perceived gender-inappropriate behavior, so fighting homophobia effectively necessarily involves fighting gender essentialism. It's tenuous, but I think that with some testing I can articulate that link more effectively.

There's also the analogy borrowed by Les Feinberg, I believe, who said (paraphrasing roughly) that sexual orientation and gender identity are indeed two different boats— but many of us have a foot in each, and if we are not to be pulled apart or drowned we have a vested interest in keeping them both rowing in approximately the same direction at approximately the same speed.

Do you think that trans people and lesbian, gay, and bisexual people should be grouped together in our activist organizations? Under what circumstances? Why? What are the best ways for us both to work together and to work separately?

(Further transparency: This is a question much on my mind, but I am also proposing it for discussion as a way to let the Concerns... thread cool off a bit. I really enjoy talking trans/queer theory here on 'lith, but I prefer it when people feel a bit less raw.)
 
 
elene
06:42 / 07.12.05
We obviously gain by being protected by the same laws as the LGB people. As you say, id entity, we often are these people during at least a part of our complicated lives, and we are too small and heterogeneous a community to achieve much alone, if we constitute a community at all.

Personally I sympathise with the editorial, including the statement concerning trans same-sex marriages. However, I strongly suspect that the difference in voting on the gay bill four years ago and the gay/trans one this year reflects a change in the overall state of US politics, rather than the effect of including trans issues.

I think that caring about our needs, especially those of the most obvious of us, helps the LGB communities too. Most queer people have relatively few problems with hate and discrimination on a day-to-day basis. When it does affect them it's surprising and often devastating, but it can easily be underestimated. It's unlikely, I think, that a typical transgendered person underestimates the problem.

Concerning gender identity vs. sexual orientation/categorization: I presume you're asking whether a community defined by it's variant gender identity has sufficient commonality with one defined by variant sexual orientation to make their grouping fruitful. I.e. should there be a T on the LGB? I think so. For one thing, I have the impression these two variations often appear together, though that impression may be out-dated. For another, that's still how the straight world perceives us anyway.

So, I agree, both with the idea of wrapped prejudice and with Feinberg's analogy. I fear this thread's only problem will be an excess of agreement.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
11:19 / 09.12.05
Well, maybe not

For myself, I don't really believe in the LGBTI thing, and I don't know that it's a great political model. But then, I don't belive in a LGB, or a LG, or even a G community. What I'm about to argue may be completely off the mark, and is mostly based on what I've read and what friends from the US have told me, so correct me if I'm wrong. But it seems that the conflicts between lesbian and gay activism around anti-discrimination or hate crimes bills and transpeople desiring inclusion aren't only about the gay and lesbian lobby's unwillingness to include transpeople, per se. That conflict's roots are based in the debates between, say Sylvia Rivera and the Stonewall March back in the late 80's, where Stonewall March orgnaisers asked Sylvia to stop speaking and leave the stage because radical feminists felt uncomfortable with a tranny speaking. I guess what I'm saying is that this community and politics problem is also about class and race and the shared, or disparate, political goals of various communities. There's a huge difference between a largely white, middle-class, relatively wealthy, assimilationist gay and lesbian political lobby and gender-variant people who are not only visible, but also visibly poor and visibly part of the lumpenproletariat (sex workers, homeless people, drug users, etc). That difference is capitalism and various people's relative needs -- do you need the right to marry, or just the right not to get harassed by the cops or kicked off the street where you've always lived by gentrifying yuppies, among whom number many gays and lesbians?

It seems likely to me, although I don't know the situation, that the only reason the hate crimes bill got up with gender identity is because of the emergence recently of a very 'professional', white, middle-class trans political machine. These people don't do so much grassroots organising; instead they seem to lobby politicians quietly with the HRC, and join with the HRC in arguing that transpeople and queers should be protected from discrimination because they contribute to protecting national security. Watch my ultra-leftist hackles rise! (Again, I'm not sure about the assumptions I'm making here, I could be wrong. But it seems likely, given my experience.)

In the same way, the really productive, amazing coalitions between trans and queer people I see happening, here in Australia and in the US, are where peole share a political focus, not only about their own identity, but about capitalism and particularly about the mode of organisastion they want to use. For instance, Mattilda (who I wouldn't want to pigeonhole as either trans or queer, exclusively) seems to bring people together who are queer or trans or both, as well as sharing an anti-capitalist, grass roots political vibe. I like that a lot, and I wish more of it was around. (This is kinda what some of us in Melbourne are trying to do, on a very small scale, with no publications yet.)

But then, I also agree with parts of Crain's editorial. There are large numbers of transpeople who are even more conservative than the middle-class, assimilationist gay and lesbian activists. They make rights claims by actively distancing themselves from queers. I think that strategy should be actively fought. Funnily enough, fighting conservatism often intersects with fighting capital... I wish I knew why that is!!
 
 
elene
13:03 / 09.12.05
OK, good, but that's a very broad attack Mr Disco. You're putting down the whole notion of conventional politics because it's white, middle-class and based on lobbying rather than activism. OK, there is a problem in this sense: what the influential want will be done first, and what the rest want maybe never. Why is the solution to this problem not for us to lobby the influential? The alternative would seem to be turning the world on it's head, which isn't likely to happen.

That difference is capitalism and various people's relative needs -- do you need the right to marry, or just the right not to get harassed by the cops or kicked off the street where you've always lived by gentrifying yuppies, among whom number many gays and lesbians?

Oh, you can expect police brutality to be protested, you can expect more social workers to be requested, but you can't expect to be free to work the street in areas used extensively by gentrified yuppies. You are right, many conservative souls in the queer communities don't like transpeople, but that's a natural part of the politics. Arguing that we should be protected because we're people too (just like everyone else), which I think is really what the HRC is arguing - just in a way a fascist might understand - is hardly a problem in my mind.
 
 
*
18:37 / 09.12.05
I think Mr Disco has a point, but I'm seeing more LG&B people who are critiquing and distancing themselves from that classism in my generation and younger, so I'm not sure it necessarily follows to separate trans people from LG&B people in activist organizations as a way of addressing that class divide.

elene, personally I think it's a little naive to think that the 'influential' people will ever particularly care about the needs of the rest of us— about street trans people, trans people of color, trans people who are in prisons, trans people who have specific mental health needs. I don't think I'm ready to give up on conventional politics, but I'm also not going to rely on it as the only solution. I think we need the middle-class white trannies to help us get certain messages across to the middle-class white everyone elses, but we also need grassroots activism and resistance to bring issues that affect us into the public eye.

(Read on a trans message board: "Maybe the trannies need our own Stonewall Riots." I can't even begin to describe my feelings on seeing that sentence, from a transperson who, unlike me, was alive when Stonewall actually happened.)
 
 
elene
12:54 / 10.12.05
It would indeed be naive to imagine that all the needs of transpeople will be met or even be considered by those who can change things, however they are lobbied. I know conventional politics is not sufficient, but I consider everything else an educational strategy. I think activism can inform the next generation of politicians and can influence society's moral stance by influencing it's commentators and educators., but I don't think that in this case it can change a things directly. We can't mount a national strike, and the way Stonewall played out - leaving us practically ostracised at the edge of the queer community rather than being it's very centre as we were before it - says it all.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
00:58 / 12.12.05
I should make it clear that I'm not suggesting separatism is the answer here -- good coalitions can be found all over the place, and some of those happen to involve both transpeople, queers and those who are both. I just don't reckon those coalitions actually come together in an additive, pluralist formation, hwere people are working and organising together because they're queer and/or trans. There has to be a deeper political grounding.

Argh, I wish I had more time to post, and to address the above posts in more of a coherent way!
 
 
alas
15:46 / 12.12.05
There has to be a deeper political grounding.

I 'd love to hear more about this, Mister Disco, when you have some time. I'm thinking of this thread in relation to the "class, neoliberalism, identity politics" thread as well as the other transgender thread (did someone imply there's a third transgender thread active right now?).

So I'm wondering if you have in mind a specific political goal--e.g., the traditional social-democratic goal of a more just distribution of economic and cultural resources? or the more libertarian goal of fighting state control over all our bodies? Or both? Or something else entirely?

I ask because I'm genuinely interested in the degree to which questions of desire, and attempts to realize human dreams (I'm sure there's a better word, but I mean goals that aren't necessarily "productive" within a given social structure--"the pursuit of happiness"?) are entangled with global networks of power that are profoundly exploitative.

In other words: I want a world in which people can explore the fullest complexity of whatever it means to be a "human being," wherever they live. But I see that my own exploration of "human being"-ness both 1) occurs on the backs of other people and 2) is invested in that exploitative status quo at least to the degree that it helps me explore my own dreams. I'd like some help unpacking this ethical dilemma, if this is the right place for it...
 
 
alas
16:03 / 12.12.05
[Re-reading this thread I do see that Mister Disco has specified an interest in anti-capitalist sites, and in fact commented: Funnily enough, fighting conservatism often intersects with fighting capital... I wish I knew why that is! which somehow I lost in my readings of other threads. So, apologies for thinking I needn't re-read.

However, I still would like to hear more from MD or anyone else on questions of social justice/ capitalism as they are entangled with gender identity].
 
 
elene
11:09 / 13.12.05
Just saw the Gentrification thread, Mr Disco, so now I know what you meant. Yes, this sucks. Not the renewal, which is necessary, but the neo-liberal way it's (always) being done.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
09:06 / 14.12.05
Just returning to this thread, after having spent three days simply livid about the emergence of a civil war here in Australia...

I think we need the middle-class white trannies to help us get certain messages across to the middle-class white everyone elses, but we also need grassroots activism and resistance to bring issues that affect us into the public eye.

My experience is that the middle-class white liberal organisations involved in any given political movement usually totally undo, disavow and fuck up grassroots organising whenever they can. They actually see grassroots organising as a threat, because in order to sustain a nice conservative we're-all-friends-here political approach, you have to be pragmatic and allow the material conditions of the situation you're angry about take a backseat, while you make deals. Grassroots activists -- the loud ones, doing visible actions -- often rely on emphasising on the material conditions of a given situation, and worse, they're not usually interested in being all nice and friendly with the politicians or law-makers. That creates a difficulty at the deal-making level.

Now, this is unfortunate and I wish it wasn't the case -- I like working with a wide variety of people, who have lots of different ideas about political change. But when that happens, and when you see the assimilationist lobby groups actively disavowing your strategies and telling the media you're just a bunch of rabble-rousing thugs, you start to want to blow them up too. (That last is a joke.)

Here, mostly, my experience is not with queer or trans politics, but with activism around undocumented migrants. A couple of years ago I was involved in a coalitional protest outside a refugee detention centre, where some of the detainees escaped. A Greens politician who'd been working with us (and who actually took part in helping people escape) later denounced the escapes and that protest as unhelpful and stupid -- presumably some journalist pushed her to explain why she was there, and she couldn't remember. Hence, ta da! my distrust of media slut lobbyists.


So I'm wondering if you have in mind a specific political goal--e.g., the traditional social-democratic goal of a more just distribution of economic and cultural resources? or the more libertarian goal of fighting state control over all our bodies? Or both? Or something else entirely?

Probably the latter!
 
 
*
18:32 / 15.12.05
That seems like a reasonable generalization, MD, although I can name some organizations that I believe do both kinds of activism on some level, like Trans Menace and the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence.

So back to the question of whether trans people belong in queer organizations: Is it more preferable to have trans-focused organizations wherein the organization is accountable particularly to lower-income trans people, working separately from and sometimes in opposition to queer organizations, whether they be predominantly upper-class or not? Or grassroots organizations which are queer+trans focused and predominantly lower-income, working separately from and sometimes in opposition to the upper-class queer organizations and the upper-class trans organizations?
 
 
the virgin queen
13:57 / 16.12.05
may I humbly sugest...

That yes there is a posibility of Gender activism dove-tailing with LG(B) orginisations but I'd like to see it happening as issues arise rather than as a given.

This has, in my view, been the problem with LG(B) groups; namely that they trundle on and on colecting souls and end up monolithic orginisations that no longer have contact with their grassroots and may even crush much of the people a tthe bottom.

If trully coalitional orginisations could be envisaged that came together to fight common causes (and I'd say batteling Gender Essensalism is defenatly one of those) then we could acheve something real. If we continue with a white. middle class asimilationist model then when we do get involved we'll only be swallowed up by the machine.
 
  
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