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Meeting with a local occult group; how to tell they're legit?

 
  

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Gypsy Lantern
13:50 / 21.02.06
the dojo, because I never thought I could subordinate to an authority in that way

In terms of martial arts, I find it's easier to "subordinate to an authority" if you know they can kick you six ways before breakfast without blinking. Besides which, it's not "subordination" or "subservience" - it's respect. Respect for the training and skills that they have developed, and respect for the fact that they are prepared to teach you and impart the fruits of their hard work onto you. Too many alleged magicians seem to have trouble differentiating between submission and respect, subservience and gratitude.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:04 / 21.02.06
Respect itself sometimes seems like a dirty word amongst both secular modern magicians and those of a more theistic bent.
 
 
Vadrice
15:35 / 22.02.06
But how about groups that only exist in cyberspace?
arent this thing were on here almost like a group? No group rituals maybe but all of this discussion?


There have been group rituals on Barbelith before.
 
 
Dead Megatron
19:51 / 22.02.06
In terms of martial arts, I find it's easier to "subordinate to an authority" if you know they can kick you six ways before breakfast without blinking. Besides which, it's not "subordination" or "subservience" - it's respect.

I'd go a step further and say it's more than just respect. It's admiration. And, in some cases (as mine's) it gets to be awe. In fact, when questioned as how good is my sifu, I often describe him as "being so good, the things he does can only be described as magic".
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:42 / 22.02.06
There have been group rituals on Barbelith before.

*Sigh* Ohyeah.
 
 
Dead Megatron
20:56 / 22.02.06
There have been group rituals on Barbelith before.


Did they work?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:29 / 22.02.06
I think the answer to that is a definate No.
 
 
Daemon est Deus Inversus
00:07 / 23.02.06
Again, and I've posted this before, though I later said I'd been sarcastic (whan are we more serious?). The Guardians of the Inner Portals (GIPs) communicate, usually through Scrabble, with the Visible Outer Head who then issues an invitation. There may be problems with this: GIPs exist beyond time and space so that you may issue invitations to people whom you expelled last year; are dead; or haven't yet been born. Elizabethan GIPs spell in a very eccentric fashion (i.e., Anne Bolleyn at various times spelled her name Bolleyn, Bullen, Bollein, etc.) so the invitation may spell out the wrong name. Then, the GIPs might give you a motto that hasn't been selected yet. So the aspirant is advised to sit around and hope that his invitation doesn't go to someone else by mistake.

Of course, you might politely ask who chartered the group (and by what authority); and who initiated their Chief. They'll very rightly tell you to go to hell but you'll be able to tell a lot by how it's said. Ask about the structure of their Outer Order curiculum; how tutoring is done; what are the practical and magickal requirements for advancement through the Outer. Ask about the theoretical distinction between Outer and Inner (i.e., one is magical, the other alchemical; one symbolical, the other more direct in its analogical processes, etc.). You'll be able to tell if they totally blow you off (or don't know). Make sure that money is more or less only to cover costs. And, if you are an attractive woman, "Do I absolutely have to engage in sexual relations with any partners selected by the GIPs; or may I refuse for good cause (i.e., the fellow looks like Ted Kennedy only older and fatter)?
 
 
_+&*: Nimbus Fool :*&+_
09:05 / 23.02.06
Speaking form the experience of joining a few groups at the random pull of my mind I can say at times it can be a gamble. I belive that the first time I ever joined a group of people under a single banner, under a sigle person running the show, was for no other reason then "they sounded cool". I gave out a phone number and had my first conversation. It was all based on that, how I (underage) felt from it. Granted- I was rather daft and rather excited to be speaking to anyone who didn't think I was a crack-pot polytheist. They turned out to be (for the last five years) good friends and good allies. But one group isn't enough for me- The second group I joined involved a lengthy form and references. The fee's were all upfront and as I remember - non refundable. The only boast they had was size and the air of officiality. Now let me tell you- I've learnd a lot more from a small sect of people than a world wide organization. Granted this is but one of many and I have yet to join the others.

To be honest- it is about your safety and what you gain, as a person, as a magician. You can fraternize with anyone you wish but imo becomes different when taken to the level that magical pursuits dwell upon.

The important thing is: What can you gain from this? How is this going to expand you, your practice, and who you are?

I'm not going to lie, I've dropped membership fees and dues just for a taste of what some groups of people are hiding.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:43 / 23.02.06
Fraters with charters who write libers for orders, and libers written for orders by fraters who have charters = wankers!

Strong truth!
 
 
grant
18:06 / 23.02.06
I think the answer to that is a definate No.

All of them? I like to think Dabh Surgot is still doing his thing -- not omnipotently, but efficiently.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:40 / 23.02.06
Ah, dear ol' Dabh. That working was before my time, which is why it slips my mind.

Yeah, I guess he must still be around. Maybe someone should break out the brandy one day and have a chat, find out how he's doing.
 
 
grant
20:58 / 23.02.06
He's still there.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:25 / 15.03.06
Hey, I'm actually putting together an occult group right now. The twist is that we're going to be a mix of Spanish, Catalan, and English speakers--a sort of combined occult discussion group and intercambio. I'm stoked.
 
 
Isadore
19:42 / 15.03.06
And, if you are an attractive woman, "Do I absolutely have to engage in sexual relations with any partners selected by the GIPs; or may I refuse for good cause (i.e., the fellow looks like Ted Kennedy only older and fatter)?

Sirrah, any organization which expects me to engage in sexual relations with anyone, conventionally attractive or no, is going to get the middle-finger salute.

Sheesh.
 
 
Olulabelle
19:52 / 15.03.06
I am a member of a group formed through friendship. We didn't start out being a magical group, but someway down the line we realised that our friendship had evolved into one. Sometimes this is the nicest way.
 
 
Isadore
20:49 / 15.03.06
That sounds lovely, Lula.

The only group I've dealt with thus far self-destructed (in a very quiet fashion) within six months; but its goals were a bit odd to start with -- public awareness of pagan issues, whatever those are, rather than networking, which was what I was looking for. I must admit to not putting in much effort after the High Priestess / Drama Queen was extremely bossy and antagonistic towards those of us who volunteered for the Mabon event (which somebody confused with Lammas/Lughnasadh in the fliers and posters).

Your way is much better, I think.
 
 
Dead Megatron
07:49 / 16.03.06
High Priestess + Drama Queen = Bad Combo
 
 
Daemon est Deus Inversus
00:46 / 18.03.06
Don't we already have a thread, "Thinking of Joining an Occult Group?", which covers much of this?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:02 / 18.03.06
You mean the old one that you bumped to plug your occult group? Yeah, we did. Sometimes the same subject comes up more than once, but I'd say this one covers the topic in rather more depth.
 
 
Daemon est Deus Inversus
18:34 / 21.03.06
Shouldn't everyone be allowed to make up their own mind?

http://www.barbelith.com/topic/18275
 
 
Ganesh
18:39 / 21.03.06
If you feel particularly strongly about it, perhaps you could start a Policy thread canvassing opinion on the issue?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:21 / 21.03.06
I think every one had made up their own minds. They were posting to this thread, not the older one. Like the elephant says, if you feel that there's a problem with any of that, the Policy forum is the place to go.
 
 
Daemon est Deus Inversus
20:00 / 21.03.06
Honestly, when I posted, and I admit that I speed read, I didn't realize that there were two threads. Maybe some other dumb bastards did the same.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:18 / 21.03.06
Maybe if the moderators move to delete the other thread? There's nothing much of value in there, is there?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:27 / 21.03.06
I don't know if that'll help much, as the thread will still show up in searches. I'll put in the request though.
 
 
Daemon est Deus Inversus
21:30 / 21.03.06
Is there? You want to convince everyone that there isn't. What are you so scared about? Maybe the moderators will let people read it.
 
 
Daemon est Deus Inversus
21:38 / 21.03.06
[Repeat post removed by mods. Original is here.]
 
 
Ganesh
21:46 / 21.03.06
What are you so scared about?

TEH TRUTH!!!11!!! That's why you are being CENSORED!!!1!

What are you so insistent is of value from the other thread? Your own site-pimping?
 
 
Daemon est Deus Inversus
21:56 / 21.03.06
No, and I'm not being censored (just iefecctively nipped at the butt). And I'd like to be here to promote discussion and answer questions. Let's take it from there.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:13 / 21.03.06
Okay kittens, time out. Can we really, really, take this to the Policy? DEDI, can you hold off on posting anymore HOGD stuff until we've thrashed this out? I've PMed you the link to the post in Policy already; everyone else, it's here.
 
 
Daemon est Deus Inversus
23:04 / 21.03.06
I'll expect you to set this up with Policy. I will, of course, make myself available.
 
 
Vadrice
05:45 / 22.03.06
anyway, back to the matter at hand.

um... where were we?

dear ol' Dabh
yes. Hasn't moved on. Hasn't even started looking around going "aah. rot. Things were better back in the old days."

And the manga may not have been what we may have wanted it to be, but at least we got a excellent song out of it.

Now for the thread summary:
Occult groups; How to judge if they're legit or just a bunch of crazy folk.

Believe me. Any I've found and enjoyed (and yes, I include Barbelith in that) has most CERTAINLY been both.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:10 / 25.04.06
To turn this around/broaden it a little: Has anyone else found themselves making the transition from solo practitioner to group practitioner, perhaps after many years as the former? Only I seem to be in just such a position and I'm feeling my inexperience very keenly. There seem to be certain skills involved in tying a group together in a meaningful way, and I don't appear to have them yet. Partly I seem to have fetched up in a group that expects me to lead rituals, which isn't what I was expecting and which is bringing on wicked performance anxiety.
 
 
illmatic
13:21 / 25.04.06
Just be honest, Mordant. Which can be hard if you're having to deflate people's expectations. Look to establishing good rapport and hanging out as much as getting huge rituals off the ground.

I've often found that the social side is just as important, if not more so, than the strange stuff, if a bit underrated. That's where you discuss ideas, bond, share experience, get to know people, make each other laugh, get drunk together, and have intense and punishing occult-flavoured sex*.

I would also say expect some amount of disagreements and blowing up to occur at some stage in the future, as different agendas and expectations start to surface. This doens't have to be a negatve thing, and can be something to build on, or lead to you redefining your groups aims.

*Obviously you dont have to do all of these.
 
  

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