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Why do we need or want marriage?

 
  

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lord henry strikes back
14:21 / 05.12.05
This occured to me whilst reading the Homophobic BBC Scotland Online. thread. Would it not be a fairer and more logical option to simply drive a wedge between legal rights, on the one hand, and any kind of relationship on the other? Instead of having a person who will not pay inheritance tax on whatever you leave them just give every estate a threshold below which not tax is payable. In terms of next of kin leave that to be settled under whatever policy it effects (pention, insurance etc.). Give people a limit on the number of people they can bring with them when they immigrate and ignore their relationship. Essentially redistribute all of the rights that are currently bound to marriage.

Other than a few issues that this could throw up in relation to EC law is there any good reason, legal or emotional, for not just doing away with a legal institution of marriage?
 
 
Claris Dancers
16:12 / 05.12.05
Other than a few issues that this could throw up in relation to EC law is there any good reason, legal or emotional, for not just doing away with a legal institution of marriage?

Yeah, it's what people (the masses) want. Change their minds and we'll have no trouble getting rid of it. Personally I have no use for it or care about it either way, but my wife likes it. Hence, since i didn't really care, we are married.
 
 
Claris Dancers
16:13 / 05.12.05
Also, since I dont really care about the "institution of marriage" as a whole, i don't know why the masses like it so much. Fairy tale imagery planted in their heads as children maybe?
 
 
Ganesh
16:25 / 05.12.05
The children. Won't somebody please think of the children?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:25 / 05.12.05
So, you married one of the masses? What's that like, then?
 
 
Ganesh
16:28 / 05.12.05
I Was A Teenage Mass-Marrier.
 
 
Ganesh
16:31 / 05.12.05
But anyway, to stop rotting and attempt to apply myself to this. I suppose there's the aspect of wanting an outward sign of commitment to a particular person (or persons) - but who, exactly, one is showing one's commitment to is perhaps moot.
 
 
Smoothly
17:02 / 05.12.05
Don't we need to separate out a few things? The appeal of marriage might be different from the appeal of weddings, and then you've got the appeal of being married (the state of, as opposed to the institution of) and then there are the outward signs of being married (family names, rings etc). Different people might like these things in different combinations.

I, for instance, can understand the appeal of the state of being married to someone in the sense of being coupled with them, but I dislike the panto of weddings, the hubris of wedding vows, the tacky boasting and connotations of ownership that go with the outward signs, and the grubby history of the institution... So it's hard to give a simple answer to the question.

In terms of the law, though, I suppose we need a mechanism for extending certain privileges to people. By redistributing the various rights that go with marriage, aren't we just redistributing marriage?
 
 
Claris Dancers
17:05 / 05.12.05
So, you married one of the masses? What's that like, then?
It's a whole mess of fun

I didnt see it as necessary, she wanted it for personal "happily ever after" type typical goofy girl reasons, I wanted to make her happy. She knows what i think, and it actually means more to her that we are married since i did it only for her.
 
 
lord henry strikes back
20:37 / 05.12.05
By redistributing the various rights that go with marriage, aren't we just redistributing marriage?

No, I don't think so. What I'm suggesting is unpacking the legal institution of marriage and detaching it from personal relationships. If people want to show that they are in some way attached to some other/others/animal/object then I say go for it. If they want to show that connection through a wedding, a ring, body art or the sharing of blood, again fine. However, the legal encouragement (through tax brakes etc.) of certain types of union is problematic for me. The fact that I happen to be in a stable, monogamous, hetro relationship doesn't change this.

Even then the law, as it stands, could end up working against me. If I were to marry my girlfriend, even in the most secular way possible, there would still be unneeded problems. Anything that I leave to her is tax free, but what about everything else? What about the musical gear I have that she would have no use for but several of my mates would kill for? Yes, I could leave it to her and ask her to pass it on, but a) why should I have to? and b) what If that would cause a problem, such as they don't get on?

What I'm trying to say is let people have their parties, their rings, and their relationships. Just keep them out of the law. What is wrong with that?
 
 
Smoothly
22:58 / 05.12.05
Hmm, I'm not sure I really understand what you're getting at.

So you separate the reasons for getting married out so that you have the emotional content of marriage in one pile and the legal content in another. If you spread the legal pile amongst other people (some shared property rights with you musical mates; hitch your life insurance policy to your sister's; give your doctor friend decision-making power in case of you become incapacitated; and so on), aren't you just redistributing the legal aspects of marriage? Or do I misunderstand you?

What I'm trying to say is let people have their parties, their rings, and their relationships. Just keep them out of the law. What is wrong with that?

Are you saying people should keep their personal relationships out of the law in this way? Why? When it comes to the legal processes governing things like property transfer, power of attorney, next of kin rights etc, it seems like a tall order to expect people not to want to entrust at least a good number of these with the person they also have the deepest emotional commitment to. What's wrong with that?

If, for some reason, a person wanted to make someone other than their closest companion their next of kin, then I can't see a problem with that - but I can't see many people wanting to, or why they should feel they ought to.

I don't think there's anything particularly virtuous about sharing all your legal privileges with just one person (any more than I think there's anything particularly virtuous about sharing all emotional privileges with just one person), but at the same time I don't see anything wrong with it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:07 / 05.12.05
Well, presumably you could locate all these legal elements with one person if you so desired - you just don't have to. So, I might want to divide my inheritance-tax-free bequest, or give one person power of attorney and another the house if I die, and so on. This is a bit like my modular legal entitlements idea, where you decide which bits of the legalities of partnership you want at any given time, and then sort out with the religion of your choice what you want t do to celebrate your various relationships.

Lord Henry seems to be talking about the wedding ceremony as equivalent to a commitment ceremony - a public display of mutual affection and commitment without any legal weight, which sounds reasonable.
 
 
Smoothly
23:31 / 05.12.05
Oh I was reading it as being more prescriptive - that legal entitlements should be kept separate from emotional relationships, like religion being kept separate from state, or grape from grain or something.

I certainly don't think you should only qualify for legal entitlements if you are in a particular type of relationship with someone. I don't see why someone should be able to secure citizenship for their spouse but not their best friend instead. So yeah, I'd support separating qualification for and access to those entitlements from partaking of a particular flavour of relationship dictated by the state. Similarly, I don't think an orthodox wedding should automatically confer legal entitlements.
 
 
lord henry strikes back
09:10 / 06.12.05
I didn't mean that there has to be a separation between legal and emotional relationships, sorry if that wasn't clear. I just don't feel that legal relationships should be tied to this sort of union. Partly I think there are just practical reasons for this, some of which have been mentioned above. Also, I don't like that fact that it is basically a state sanctioned promotion of a lifestyle which is historically judaeo-christian and based on a format that some will find exclusionary: union between two people only, some assumption of a sexual relationship etc.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:46 / 06.12.05
typical goofy girl reasons

Yeah, those goofy girls!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:56 / 06.12.05
Now, now. It was very brave of Qwik to marry somebody, despite the disapproval of his family, from the masses, even though he knew that she was not clever like what he is and still cleft to such meaningless and pointless traditions. After all, changing your entire legal status purely because somebody whom you know to be not very clever about this sort of thing wanted you too is either very touching or very dim - like doing your taxes or changing nationality according to the goofy ideas of your partner - and surely nobody would admit to being that dim. Therefore it's touching all over.
 
 
Smoothly
09:59 / 06.12.05
Personally I have no use for it or care about it either way, but my wife likes it. Hence, since i didn't really care, we are married. … I wanted to make her happy. She knows what i think, and it actually means more to her that we are married since i did it only for her

Moreover on the matter of why people want to get married, I'm always surprised that anyone would want to get married to someone who didn’t want to get married them. So, Quik, I’m interested in the idea that your marriage means more to your wife because of your indifference to it.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:04 / 06.12.05
Surely the pertinent question is why anyone would want to marry someone who clearly had as little respect for them as Qwik does for his poor wife?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:23 / 06.12.05
I feel we may be wandering off the point here. Qwik's argument is that people get married without a convincing or comprehensible reason. He is himself a living proof of that. I don't think it's contestible that some people go throught the process of having a wedding because it is a traditional means of expressing devotion to one person who is not related to you - of establishing a privileged relationship with that person. Lots of things happen because of tradition - for example, it is traditional in the UK and US for men to wear trousers rather than skirts to keep their legs warm - but we tend only to think of the traditions we don't particularly feel like following as the property of the uncritical mass.

So far so far. However, that privileged relationship is both personally privileged - this is the man/woman with whom I have decided to undergo this ceremony which I can only undergo with one person at a time - but also legally privileged - this person has had a legal status conferred upon them by this act, as do I, which changes how various laws interact with us both. As such, there is more to marriage - the condition of being married - than the event of the wedding or the ability afterwards to refer to oneself as husband, wife or Mrs, if one so desires. Thus it is different from other traditions such as engagement or first-footing. Question being a) can you have one element without t'othr, and if so should you? Is marriage, among other things, a convenient way for the state to normalise legally people's desire to nominate e.g. the person who would be entitled to £200,000 of their wealth should they die intestate without making them go through the process of drawing up papers? Is it the role of the state to bundle like this?
 
 
Claris Dancers
12:04 / 06.12.05
Jeez you guys are harsh. But maybe ive mis-represented myself. My wife and i consider ourselves equals in our relationship, hence we respect eachother very much. She is not my "poor wife." Nobody disapproved. But she does cling to pointless traditions that i generally have no use for, as i already said.

So, Quik, I’m interested in the idea that your marriage means more to your wife because of your indifference to it.

Now, because she clings to pointless traditions, she wanted to get married. It means more to her, not because she saw it as forcing me to commit or whatever, but because we were already comitted to eachother. It was because the ceremony was part of some teenage fantasy she once had with the big white dress and the huge family gathering and the walking down the aisle to music and all that bit. So because she knew i harbored no such fantasy and i still through myself into the planning and patricipation whole heartedly and all that for her sake, it meant more to her. And we are very happily married now, though very little has changed between us. Our relationship is probably healthier than most any other we know about. But it's not due to signing a piece of paper declaring us married.
The legal aspects are just gravy at this point. But that itself is just as valid a reason to get married as anything else i would think.

Question being a) can you have one element without t'othr, and if so should you? Is marriage, among other things, a convenient way for the state to normalise legally people's desire to nominate e.g. the person who would be entitled to £200,000 of their wealth should they die intestate without making them go through the process of drawing up papers? Is it the role of the state to bundle like this?

No I dont think you should have one without t'othr. It is a convenient way to normalize it all to which i think every consenting adult should be free to utilize (gay, straight, or otherwise, going back to the original post).
It is the role of the state to bundle things like that because it's what most people want, like i said before. Should it be? I dont know. The government enforces the laws, and since being married is also a legal status, it makes sense that they would be part of enforcing it. Who else would do it? Government has become this huge, impersonal, "thing." Maybe it would be more appropriate if it was only people's local government that recognized it instead of larger government?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:18 / 06.12.05
But she does cling to pointless traditions that i generally have no use for, as i already said.

That's not marriage: that's a wedding. Different things.
 
 
Claris Dancers
15:23 / 06.12.05
That's not marriage: that's a wedding. Different things.

Cant have one without t'othr.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:29 / 06.12.05
Actually, since the Marriage Act 1949, you can have a marriage without any of the childhood fantasy stuff, unless your dear lady wife's childhood fantasies involved registry offices, as discussed elsewhere. So, the legal elements may be gravy, but they are on a day-to-day basis the main difference that your marriage has made to your life.
 
 
Smoothly
15:35 / 06.12.05
You could also, I presume, have all the childhood fantasy stuff without the marriage, if you replaced the minister or registrar with an actor, or one of your mates or something.
 
 
OJ
15:45 / 06.12.05
However, the legal encouragement (through tax brakes etc.) of certain types of union is problematic for me.

I don't think I'm off-topic when I say that I'm intrigued by the way that certain sectors of the press, and to a more limited extent discussions like this, are focussed on the tax and inheritance implications of Civil Partnership. There's a rant about the Daily Mail issue here if you want any more reasons to hate Melanie Phillips.

Speaking personally, when my partner and I have discussed this over the last few years, it's always been the next of kin issue that loomed large: the horror that if one of us were hit by a bus, it wouldn't be the other that they'd call. We're not filthy rich and have both, to my knowledge, voted for politicians on the understanding that they would tax us to pay for public services. As we age, we may worry more about inheritance of property, not wanting either of us to be homeless or in penury if the worst were to happen. But that's as far as it goes.

I do see this spurious argument about heterosexuals losing out on a tax break because they can't get civilly partnered as a big fat red herring. Worse than that, it's just a cynical use of avarice to lead your average middle-Englander back to medieval family values. Burn the witches etc.

Are we still unpicking the reasons we may want to get married/civilly partnered? I will be doing the latter next year for a range of reasons:

- Legal recognition - chiefly as next of kin but in the future for the legal status as equal parents it would give us were one of us to give birth.

- Recognition of family and friends: I strongly believe that the support of a couple's social system plays a huge part in keeping them together/happy/safe/alive and that the wedding/partnership event is a formal way of engaging and contracting that support.

- Romance: yes, I admit I will get one chance to arrange a secular celebration of my choice in which I announce to the important people (see above) that I am committed to my girl. I intend to take that opportunity. We don't know the shape and form it's going to take yet, but we'll find a way of making the ritual/party suit us and be inclusive of our friends. As it happens, I can say with some certainty that it will involve neither God or Bling.
 
 
Claris Dancers
15:45 / 06.12.05
I thought you still had to have at least a civil ceremony and have witnesses & such. Anyway, you are correct, i suppose. The legal differences are actually the only differences in our lives. But they were also not the point of it all.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:51 / 06.12.05
Well, in many cases, as also touched on in the Civil Partnerships thread, you _are_ having the big floaty dress experience independently of the act of getting married, at least in the UK. The only church service that marries you in the eyes of the law and god in the Church of England one. All the others are, from a legal point of view, unnecessary frivolity. So one could perfectly well have something equivalent without the actual getting married bit - I've certainly known people who have had commitment ceremonies that looked a lot like weddings but had nothing to do with getting married.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:47 / 07.12.05
You may even know people for whom it's the other way round, Haus! You never know...
 
 
Royal McBee
20:15 / 08.12.05
Well, let me try to add something to this topic

First: why do we have weddings?

It's all about heritage.

All of us have an urge to beget children - to pass on our genes. To provide survey to our DNA. Every single one of us (in theory).

The male has the necessity of being sure that the baby the female is giving birth is his. He wants his genes to go on in our planet, so he will give all support to that baby, desiring his success. The easiest way to be sure that the baby was his (in an age before the DNA exams) was being sure that the female was not copulating with anyone else.

For the female, is better to have a male with her meanwhile she’s pregnant, fat, tired and unable to get her own food. So, the best warrant to that is to convince him that the scion is his.

Okay, that’s how monogamy takes place. Tribes and others primitive groups with no worries about possession or lineage simply didn’t have it.

Now about laws, rights and government:

It’s easer to keep social order when everyone knows whose the baby is. So, State aims to keep family model, and monogamy. Since the rule was good, law and religion created circumstances to make it look more important and be very used. That’s how the first laws defending marriage were created. That’s how the social aspect became so valuable. All the others, not so concerned about inheritance (like those about who is able to decide f it’s possible to turn of the equipment in a neural death) are consequential. Rise from the… intimacy of married life.

About homosexuals:

That’s the main reason homosexuals didn’t worry about wedding over all this centuries. The first goal – being sure the child is his – don’t affect them. But nowadays – with adoption, and all those benefits for being married, things are changing.

In my opinion (and see – I am gay) I think homosexuals shouldn’t rum after marriage – we already have problems enough. I agree most of these benefits are available through contracts and so on. So it would be easer to run for the other rights separated – redistributing marriage as someone said above. And I think homosexual relationships should first of all be different of heterosexual ones – offering a new perspective, not repeating its mistakes.

After all:

I don’t think we need marriage. I think it’s never been useful (being marred with someone is not guarantee that your son is his) and lost even this meaning after the creation of DNA exams. And since nowadays we have something like 66% of marriages going to a divorce, we should simply forget about it.

We should not start giving the same rights to all homosexuals who promise to be together forever. We should start to give it to any couple (any) who is together when the right is needed.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:35 / 09.12.05
Every single one of us (in theory).

So, not actually every single one of us in practice? I think this may be something of a flaw in your argument.

I'd be more looking at property than parentage if I were you. although the two of course interrelate.
 
 
Smoothly
10:02 / 09.12.05
Also, who exactly are you referring to here?:

Okay, that’s how monogamy takes place. Tribes and others primitive groups with no worries about possession or lineage simply didn’t have it.


Coming back to the original question, I think it’s clear that a lot of people do want marriage. Whether the state should get involved with it is another matter, and although my instincts say no, I just doubt that it can be avoided if we are to be allowed to nominate an individual for certain legal entitlements. In Haus’s modular approach, for instance, I expect bundle of popular provisions – a ‘marriage package’ - would prevail anyway out of habit, convenience etc.

Currently the state doesn’t *insist* on any particular legal arrangements between married couples (except that one may not be ‘married’ to more than one person at a time), does it? I mean, pre-nuptual agreements can void the standard package, can’t they? You might not be able to ‘spend’ all those credits elsewhere (eg. Nominate someone else for a waiver on inheritance tax), but married people don’t *have* to accept any legal bonds that they don’t want to, do they?

Or am I mistaken? Beyond the label of ‘married/unmarried’, to what extent does the state necessarily dictate the legal relationship between married people?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:29 / 09.12.05
Currently the state doesn’t *insist* on any particular legal arrangements between married couples (except that one may not be ‘married’ to more than one person at a time), does it? I mean, pre-nuptual agreements can void the standard package, can’t they?

I don't believe so, no. Pre-nuptial agreements, at least in UK law, will be considered by a court in a contested divorce - that is, they will take into account that both parties signed a piece of paper agreeing that x would go to y if they split up - but they are not legally enforceable - that is, they do not have the power to overrule the decision of a court.
 
 
Nocturne
01:10 / 31.03.09
There is also the issue of common-law marriages. In Canada, a couple is considered common-law after 12 months for income tax purposes, and after 3 years for everything else. Also, under the civil marriage act, same-sex marriages are legal. So if two broke students live together for monetary purposes, can one claim common-law if the other one dies, regardless of the sex of the roommate?

Personally, I think the whole marraige thing should not be recognized by the state. Everyone should have a will, and if they die, the state should not tax the contents of the will, whomever benefits.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:30 / 31.03.09
We've talked about inheritance tax round here before - I think one issue with that is that many people do die intestate, and if they do something has to happen with their money (and, of course, the poorest and most vulnerable members of society are most likely to die intestate). The other problem is that the abolition of inheritance tax, although the idea of a "death tax" is very emotive, as is the idea of being taxed on savings that have already been taxed (arguably twice), is often seen to favour the wealthy (although it's more complicated than that, naturally).
 
 
Supersister
19:03 / 11.04.09
People who say that all the changes in legal status can be effected in other ways, eg. nominating a next of kin, writing a will, exercising a parental responsibility agreement, are ignoring the fact that to the majority of the population the law is a distant, expensive and inaccessible beast. Getting married is a commonly understood life-long trust for the merging of property, the sharing of assets and the raising of children. In an ideal world I agree there would be a myriad of interesting options and alternatives but to do away with this one would make a lot of people worse off as it stands.
 
  

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