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Bundle Theory

 
 
mtheory
06:01 / 02.12.05
How does bundle theory relate to idealism? Has anyone experienced past-life regression via hypnosis or other means?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:28 / 02.12.05
Let's start with what bundle theory is. mtheory, could you give us a quick rundown? Also, what sort of idealism do you have in mind - the idea that there are ideal forms apperceivable by reason?
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
11:14 / 02.12.05
Bundle Theory in the gospesl according to wikipedia
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:19 / 02.12.05
Yes, yes, but what I was asking was what mtheory meant by his question. If I simply wanted to know what bundle theory was I could google it.
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
12:12 / 02.12.05
I know, I thought it may prove to be a useful point of reference rather than having mtheory rehash numerous sources here and allowing greater focus on the question rather than the subject. My apologies.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:46 / 02.12.05
What's confusing me, dragging this back onto something resembling topic, is the link between the first and the second question you're asking, mtheory. Are they intended to be connected? That is, do you feel that the relationship of idealism and bundle theory is related or significant to past life recollection through regression?
 
 
mtheory
21:02 / 02.12.05
Well my philosophy professor is rooted in idealism and he states that bundle theory/past lives is proof in support of idealism as opposed to materialism. I'm just curious as to how or why he came to this relation, since he hasn't really gone into too much detail about it.
 
 
Spaniel
23:44 / 02.12.05
Past lives are proof of anything? You do see the problem, don't you?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
00:01 / 03.12.05
So, as an example. If X follows an idealism which is opposed to say, the Christian religion, that's because of something which happened in X's past life- he was a victim of the Crusades, for example- is that the sort of argument that you're talking about, mtheory?
 
 
nighthawk
02:44 / 03.12.05
We're talking about bundle theory as a description of the self, right?

So Hume says, I look inside of me to find my 'self', and all I find is a particular idea or sensible impression.

So all my 'self' is, is a bundle of compresent ideas. There is no 'I' that I can be familiar with, if 'I' is taken as Cartesian res cogitans, a substantial ego having an existence apart from material substance.

But if the self is just a bundle of ideas, then the corner stone of analytic epistemology, cogito ergo sum, is just an acquaintance with thought. So I know nothing but ideas.

So let's all take sides with Berkeley and be Idealists about material substance? As a thinker/perceiver I am acquainted with nothing but Ideas?
 
 
nighthawk
11:53 / 03.12.05
Sorry, about past lives: I suppose the idea would be that if you accept bundle theory, idealism might be quite a tempting position for explaining how a memory that's not connected to the history of your current body can be a constituent of your 'self' (the bundle of ideas and impressions which are 'you'). I'm not sure exactly why this would be the case though?

Or have I misunderstood the questions?
 
 
astrojax69
19:59 / 04.12.05
surely the problem with bundle theory is that the properties said to constitute all there is of any given object (self, apple, etc) must arise by some particular arrangement of molecules that comprise the object, no?

'redness' of apple arises not spontaneously but because the particular atoms making up the apple have the properties (note, not 'just are' the properties) such that light, something that is not the object itself, reflects from the surface [itself also 'an arrangement of molecules'] and is processed by photoreceptors in the retina of eyes in creatures with them and processed by the neural networks therein. rocks don't and can't reckon 'redness'. even rubies!


what is the question here? what does bundle theory purport to do for us that atomic physics can't, nor can the explication of hard-lined empiricism? i am not sure i follow what explanatory powers for anything it brings...
 
 
nighthawk
20:46 / 04.12.05
Most anglo-american philosophers who hold some form of the bundle theory about particulars are also scientific realists. They would agree that the properties of particular objects can be reduced to the the properties and relations of elementary scientific entities.

But bundle theory is supposed to explain the structure of things on a metaphysical, not scientific level. Perhaps the fact that these philosophers still have any faith in this kind of explanation is an indictment of analytic philosophy, but it would be unfair to say that everything they're trying to explain can just be accounted for by science.

Now we're talking about this as a general metaphysical theory, rather than just a description of the 'self'. Philosophers who do this are interested in the properties shared by various concrete objects. For example, an apple, a british post box and the pen next to me are all 'red'. What is this property, 'red', which they all share?

Lets just say we do decide that red is a property caused by the structure of the atoms that make up my apple, the light in the room, and the way my optical system works. There's still some property that we are ascribing to the apple, right? This 'structure of its atoms': let's call it @red@, to distinguish it from the colour we are familiar with in experience.

Now you can say that this property, @red@, is ultimately explainable in terms of the arrangement of atoms (and why stop there, physics has come a long way since the C17th - its probably reducible to the properties of sub-atomic particles, maybe even superstrings). But this type of scientific explanation isn't really what these philosophers are interested in.

There's still a property, @red@, that we're identifying with this particular type of arrangement of atoms, and if its properties we're talking about it doesn't really matter if you can explain this in terms of more basic entities. You're still going to need to talk about some arrangement of your fundamental particles which, when it occurs, leads to the object in question having the property @red@. You can't just say 'there's atoms there', you need to explain their arrangement, relations, etc.

And as I said, most bundle theorists would agree that the properties of the objects we are familiar with are explicable in terms of more basic scientific entities. The problem is that these entities must necessarily have properties themselves. If we take atoms as our most basic entities, how are we going to explain the properties they have (mass, charge, etc)?

The bundle theorist says that all particulars are (where particulars are your most basic ontological entities, and the things built up from them), are a group on compresent properties. Again, taking atoms as our most basic entities, the bundle theorist would agree that we can build any other properties we like out of them, but she would also claim that all the atom itself was was a collection of compresent properties. Obviously we know this is not the case (quarks, electrons, etc), but simply replace 'atom' with whatever you want your most basic entity or entities to be and you'll get the same result.

If you then step back and consider the objects of everyday experience, you're still left with the same problem. Just pointing to more basic scientific entities won't do the trick for these philosophers, because its not physics they're interested in. They'll agree to explain the properties we're talking about in scientific terms, and still insist that their metaphysical questions remain.

Bundle theories of this type are specific to a very particular area of anglo-american philosophy. I think they're pretty incoherent actually, and I find it very difficult to grasp the problems they are supposed to explain, as this post probably demonstrates. However I will say that I have no idea what bundle theories of this sort, rather than those simply concerned with the description of the 'self', could have to do with past lives or Idealism in the Berkleian sense.
 
 
Quantum
14:13 / 05.12.05
mtheory, have you tried asking your professor to explain what he means? That might work.
 
 
grant
15:51 / 05.12.05
How would this endless cloud (bundle) of networked properties compare with that similar cloud of endlessly pointing signifiers you see in deconstructionist theory? (There are no referents.)

I'm sure there's something in the Tibetan Buddhists about the metaphysics of past lives compared to itemless properties.
 
 
power vacuums & pure moments
21:05 / 05.12.05
This is all very odd considering the spiritual goal of buddhism is to raise ones level of conciousness till you can see through maya/the world of objects into the formless beyond.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
03:55 / 06.12.05
(Threadrot possibly:

On the subject of past lives, according to a psychic I met in New York a while ago now, I am the reincarnation of Jayne Mansfield.

And perhaps I am, perhaps I am. The point is, though, that it would have cost me ten grand (was the original quote, so it wasn't too hard to picture the bill spiralling out of all control, the Russian mafia etc, showing up at the front door - 'You owe us money!' 'B-but... what about my soul?!' 'You will be thinking of that soon, English!') to work through the various issues I apparently have about this, and so since then, I've kind of rather tended to at least try and get a beer from the fridge, or somewhere, whenever the issue of reincarnation's cropped up.

It's a charming idea, but as far as I can see, it's not one that's really worth pursuing.)
 
 
nighthawk
10:16 / 19.12.05
Did you get a chance to ask your professor what he meant mtheory? I'm intrigued as to what he thinks the relation between bundle theory, idealism and past lives is.
 
  
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