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Can ANYONE Really Do Magic?

 
  

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Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:39 / 12.12.05
Interesting topic, isn't it? I've come across various twin studies over the years and I find them rather compelling, from twins seperated at birth who go on to live extraordinary parallel lives to those twin women who live essentially the same life (speaking as one, walking in step, dressing in exactly similar clothes and conceiving a bizzare stalkerish crush on the same unfortunate man). Much of the similarities, such as choice of career, could be put down to genetically-related traits but not all--such as absentmidedly slipping elastic bands around one's wrist, and marrying women with the same name or marrying on the same day. My filthy witch instinct is to point to sympathetic magic: specifically, spells using a subject's hair, nail-clippings, body fluids, ect., all of which would contain some of hir DNA. Something similar going on, perhaps?

Mark you--as I say, these stories are compelling but it's hard to decide whether they constitute evidence of some force or effect, or if they're just anecdotal.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:01 / 12.12.05
I actually came back to this thread to speculate wildly. So if we accept that one person can be a born a better or worse magician than another, what about the very different forms that magic can take? I suppose some people could be much better at one than at another?
 
 
Morgana
07:32 / 13.12.05
Sympathetic magic certainly is a cool explanation - I'd never thought of that! The question is, though, which twin is the active one and which one's the passive, on whom the spell is worked?

As for magical talent - I've never thought about that, either. I always believed there are some kinds of magic I like and others I can't really be bothered to do. Ceremonial magic e.g. just wasn't made for me. I feel like I'm at a school theater performance and am so consumed with remembering my part that I can't really tune into the magical flow. But perhaps that's really because I'm definitely not an actor.

Wouldn't that mean, though, it's not a special magical talent that's lacking, but some other talent to be combined with magic?

Did anyone specify so far, what exactly a magical talent could be, btw?
 
 
Sekhmet
12:26 / 13.12.05
Identical twins result from a zygote dividing in two, right? I wonder... this sounds really dumb, but I wonder if it's possible to divide a soul in half and share it between two people? Or posibly to clone it? If a soul is to any degree predestined for certain experiences during a given lifetime (whether by self-determination or an outside agency), it might explain at least some of the twin phenomena if they had identical souls...

Not having any idea what a "soul" really is, this amounts to utterly idle speculation on my part, mind you. My brain feels fluffy this morning...
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:22 / 13.12.05
Perhaps destiny isnt to do with our true will, but thee true will, of god (dess) or the many inumerable ways of defining that thatness.

That to accept creation in its completeness is to accept that some will only know a life in the womb and never beyond it, that some are destined to be tortured to death and many are destined to fight like crazy to stop the former events from happening.

At some point to accept destiny, i think i have had to come to the notion of trust or faith in life and how it unfolds, i can see the patterns in my life leading me to the place i find myself in now, and some of the magic is in learning the patterns, but it only comes by acceptence and surrender to the whole of creation, rather than being a hot headed rebel rouser that fights against everything, although maybe i havent figured that into my own pattern as yet.

Or for example does my sense and love of freedom come from my ancestors experience of oppression travelling from india from the 12th century onwards, plus the oppression and discrimination ive experienced in my own life, is it then that the genetics reflect ancestral history from the initial point of evolution to the present, that all internal familial and species and the entire carnival form the body of god, that the universe is christ crucified and ressurrected in each one of us.

Can you accept that it may well be destiny for some people to grow up with what others may consider physical abnormality, that everything taken together is destiny and that what i want or you want may be at odds with true will, i find it hard with the many tragedies in my own life and know it can somedays be impossible to do (me ranting at god about why) but after my own selfishness i am left with what is and can only accept that or reject it till i become a liar and hide from what is and how i am.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:24 / 13.12.05
which twin is the active one and which one's the passive, on whom the spell is worked? --Morgana

Um. I dunno; both, ping-ponging the influence back and forth between them? Neither, with the spell being worked by some overarching consciousness?--which takes us, I suppose, into the realms of Sekhmet's cloned or divided soul.

I always believed there are some kinds of magic I like and others I can't really be bothered to do. Ceremonial magic e.g. just wasn't made for me. --Morgana

Interesting. I felt much like that at first, but with practice I sort of pushed through the feeling, until the rites came quite naturally. Take the LBRP; at first I felt like a proper wally, but if you keep at it you sort of click, and it's as if the rite is doing you rather than vice-versa: you seem to slide effortlessly through it, as if there was some invisible template around you guiding every movement. Mark you, I never really took my HCM practice very far. I really had to make quite a lot of conscious effort to keep up any kind of daily practice, and was forever finding 'reasons' (read: excuses) to skive off or abandon it altogether.

Now, my spirit-work--that's a different story. I really haven't been working in this way very long and I'm still pretty clueless when all's said and done. However, I have made quite a lot of progress in a short space of time, largely because I simply cannot get enough of it. My practice is now the first thing I think of when I wake up. Pretty much anything else (aside from my OCD writing problem) is something I want to get out of the way so I can go and look up some piece of lore or another, or go and see to someone's shrine, or get on with making/refurbishing an item in connection with the work. I suppose this is all just as well since I have seem to have remarkably little say in the matter anymore, but am I digging the work because I'm 'good' at it in some innate way, or am I getting better because I like the work? Is there some other force at work here, possibly manipulating my enthusiasms so I'll spend more time mucking about with my drum and less time practicing my LBRP?

Can you accept that it may well be destiny for some people to grow up with what others may consider physical abnormality --HairyAngel

Well, yes I can. But you're still talking about genetics in your post, whereas the example I offered--an individual suffering from cretinism--is disabled not through genetics but through an outside force, to whit: iodine deficiency. He might have the best genes in the world, but they would do him very little good under the circumstances. Of course it could be his fate (if we assume the existance of some force which we could call fate, destiny, karma, wyrd, will of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, whatever) to be born into such circumstances, but that still leaves genetics rather out of the equation. I am happy to accept that genetics could possibly = destiny) but it doesn't follow that destiny necessarily = genetics.
 
 
Morgana
09:22 / 14.12.05
@Sekhmet: "Divided soul" was the first thought coming to my mind, too - with the same problem, that I'm not sure at all about what a soul actually is, not sure if there's really something like souls reincarnating, etc. pp. That's why I'd be very interested in a geneticist's explanation - or wonder, if there is one at all.

@HairyAngel (why's your SN always making me think of Manny having swallowed the little book of calm?): Surely I can accept unchangeable facts like genetic disposition, place of birth, family problems etc. pp. as destiny. But the fact that someone miscarries at a certain time in their life seems to be random, and I don't like the idea of such events being determined by fate, because that would completely destroy the concept of free will.

I'll have to think about the "true will of thatness", though. Provided that thatness wants us to learn, many random events actually could make sense. Which still doesn't explain, why those twins, having led two different lives, should need exactly the same lesson at exactly the same time.

@Mordant Carnival: Excuse my ignorance, but does HCM mean "hardcore ceremonial magic" by any chance?

Guess you're right that talent isn't the only factor determining what kind of magical work someone favours at a time. I've been hardly doing any magic for more than a year, getting every spiritual education I needed from my Kung Fu-practice. Now, suddenly magic floods back into my life, and it feels just right. So I guess I needed a break or a different general approach to see things from a new angle.

Still I'm not quite sure why I should exercise kinds of magic that don't work easily for me, when there seem to be so many better ways. But then again, I got loads of hard exercise and failure experiences at Kung Fu. Perhaps that's enough.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:31 / 14.12.05
Sorry, Morgana, I have a bad habit of going jargon-crazy now and again. HCM = High Ceremonial Magick.
 
 
Quantum
11:01 / 14.12.05
I'm in two minds about difficulty- on the one hand, play to your strengths, for example if I'm a writer why try to become a musician? But on the other, shying away from difficulty leads to a shallow practice. I think I still say Motivation is the key, as Mordant's account above seems to bear out. You get good at what you're motivated to do because doing it makes you better (i.e. practice makes perfect).

Maybe your motivation is set by Destiny (if you believe in it), you're predestined to enjoy writing which makes it likely you'll be a writer. But I'm not convinced personally, my first hand experience of Free Will inclines me to believe that our destiny is in our own hands and abdicating responsibility to genetics, fate, upbringing or a bad childhood is a mistake.

I'm a fortune teller who doesn't believe in fate, how ironic. It's like ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife.
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:26 / 14.12.05
I am gonna try bear with me, free will is a part of destiny, how free is freedom? Id rather achieve my destiny than meet my fate, the difference is in how we choose with the actions were faced with, the situations are defined by the overall factors that weave everything some life situations do happen to us and we are powerless to stop them. (as helpless as that may seem, i believe that these things have happened to me for a greater reason than perhaps i can contain within my own understanding at present)

What i am finding in the events in my life that seem out of my control, and thats quite alot of the environment around me and some within me is that they seem to form a pattern of meaning and consequence, as if there is some greater organising structure than myself, that freedom and chaos are nessecary factors within that structure and that all that is required is an implict faith to that greater intelligence, its just a sneeking suspiscion but i get it alot.
 
  

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