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Can ANYONE Really Do Magic?

  
  

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Sekhmet
17:49 / 01.12.05
(There may very well already be a thread on this subject, but if so, my web-fu is failing me. Feel free to linky.)


I've been puzzling over the idea that seems to be so popular in modern magic that "anyone can do it". Many, if not most, contemporary practicioners and writers seem to hold that magic is a skill that any person can pick up with sufficient dedication.

Historically, though, don't most cultures set apart specific individuals whose purpose is to practice magic on behalf of the community? The village witch / shaman / healer / what-have-you is generally viewed as being someone "special", who is born for the role, correct? It's not something that just anybody can pick up.

It seems that in modern times, most people who have any serious interest in magic try it for themselves, but are there people who would like to be magicians but just don't have the knack? Or is it all a matter of practice? Do some people have an innate talent for magic, or is it truly egalitarian?

I'm wondering if magic might not be like art, or a type of art - most people can manage to scribble down a stick figure or a recognizeable tree, just as almost anyone can apparently cast a sigil. But that doesn't necessarily make everyone an artist, any more than it makes everyone a magician. Now, with practice, you might improve your skill, and if you have a talent or a flair for it, you might be able to do amazing things with very little training. You're also likely to be better at some things than others - the master sculptor may or may not be any good at oil painting, and a seasoned astral traveler might get no results whatsoever from candle magic. Some artists, and some magicians, take a very scientific, measured, mathematical approach to their work - like, say, a ceremonial magician, or someone who does landscapes or abstracts according to a formula. Others are very intuitive and throw things together as it seems appropriate, a free-flow creative act.

I know the comparison between magician and artist is made a lot, but what strikes me is that you don't often hear claims that anyone can be an artist - except in a paint-by-numbers sense. Some people have a talent for it and others don't. People have varying levels of talent; some have to work harder than others. Is magic the same way?

I'm very curious about others' opinions on this issue.
 
 
Wanderer
18:16 / 01.12.05
It seems to me that the artist analogy works in terms of there being variable degrees of success relative to work put in. In other words, various people have various levels of talent/potential. It seems like everyone is magically capable at some level, as you said, most people could cast a sigil, and I would say most could probably advance to a certain level, even given a bit less talent.

RE: shamanism, it seems like there is still selection, it's just of a less formalized type. First of all, only certain people will be attracted to the occult in the first place. Next, there are basic skills that I think most would agree need to be grasped before one can be successful. Even in the case of a sigil, you have to know how to direct attention away from the object of desire to a certain degree. Finally, it seems like people are selected with regard to a certain level of critical thinking ability-potholes abound in the form of false gurus and people trying to make a buck, and the successful must know to avoid these (or ideally, take any valuable portion of the teaching while leaving the hero-worship and swindling.) So my take on it would be that while anyone can be a practicioner of magic in the sense of learning correspondences, doing it as a hobby, etc., only certain people will be able to become magicians in the sense of practicing it as a way of life, much the same way an elite athlete or artist functions with respect to someone who swims a few laps at the community pool every morning or draws/plays an instrument recreationally.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
21:55 / 01.12.05
anyone can do magic - it's a matter of how much interest one has in developing one's skills. Not everybody's skills are equal, so it all works out differently in the end.

then, there are those who practice magic who claim it isn't.

like my friend's grandmother who bought warts from people.

and it worked.
go figure.

did anyone read the anecdote by Alan Moore? (apologies for not having a source for it). Alan Moore's drinking in a pub, when this bloke comes up to him: short, blond hair, chainsmoking, trenchcoat - looks *exactly* like John Constantine. the bloke says, "I'll tell you the secret to magic, mate, any c*nt can do it."
then he leaves.

ta
tenix
 
 
Digital Hermes
21:57 / 01.12.05
Also regarding the shamanism connexion with today; it is still that random, or that specialized. Sure, I see or know lots of people who are either interested in or practicing magic, but I live in a city whose population is probably thousands of times larger then a tribe from the year dot. The percentage of people 'called' is still probably close to the same; we just meet more because the number of people in the tribe/city is larger.

Heck, much of this board is due to or in response to counterculture ideas, which means that those who are here come from a mindset of being dissatisfied with following the crowd.

As a side note, wouldn't something like Crowley's Great Work mean striving for a day where everybody WAS using magic? Where everyone is illuminated and enlightened? Maybe I've got the Great Beast all wrong, but that's what I had ascertained.
 
 
eye landed
22:33 / 01.12.05
magic and art are both personal. if you sincerely try, youre already doing it.

anyone can learn to draw a horse-that-looks-like-a-horse if they put in enough effort, but does that make them a better artist? the parallel skill might be something akin to stage magic, but how many serious magicians consider illusion a useful skill? im thinking lots, but its not a requirement. does that make them poseurs, in the same way an abstract artist who cant draw a simple portrait might be mocked as one?

whether you can call yourself a professional depends mostly on your ability to make a living i guess. in that respect, realistic drawing and stage illusion are probably better skills than the ability to follow a trail of synchronicity or act as a vortex of cosmic power, which are both vital to being a truly successful artist or magician...or person, i guess.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:28 / 02.12.05
Everyone can learn basic first aid and benefit from that skill, but not everyone is necessarily cut out to become a doctor, fewer still a specialised surgeon. Whilst everyone has the potential to work magic, not everyone is going to. That doesn't mean they are "teh mundane", they probably just have other stuff to do. For instance, I daresay I have the potential to be a musician, but I don't really have the time or sufficient inclination to explore that road. A person can't walk down every road, so my musical leanings tend to be limited to a bit of pissing about on the guitar when the muse happens to hit me. I'm happy with that. Magically, on the other hand, I'm compelled to try and really excel at it to the best of my ability. Not everyone is going to be arsed to do that.

In terms of Thelema, I would make a distinction between "magic" and "Magick". I would define magic as the range of occult practices we talk about here, such as divination, sorcery, astral projection, etc; and Magick as the process of living your life according to your True Will. The vision of Thelema is more about a world where every man and woman is living according to their will, which is Magick but not necessarily magic. The two are interrelated, in that magic is Magick, but Magick does not automatically imply the use of magic. If that makes sense?
 
 
Unconditional Love
09:06 / 02.12.05
I believe people are born with gifts and some people aquire them through life experience, trauma, or hard magical work.

What i dont buy are people with large book collections or pdfs that create media associations to reinforce a certain image of magic/ spirituality around themselves, although thats not to say that sometimes the two dont fit together.

I find i have a magical consumer, trying to absorb traditions and techniques, knowledge etc and a magical self which requires none of it and does what it does regardless of what i surround or package myself in. Infact id go as far to say that trying to assimilate any traditional structure or body of knowledge leaves me stunted in my own magical capabilities, what seems to work best is spontaneity and direct experience and i dont seem to be able to get that within any ordered structure. I am not saying that is the case for everyone but it certainly applies to me,i find myself in danger of disrespecting traditional structures when ever i engage with them as my mind changes like the sea.

I think magic, as is faith, is a life calling and not for everybody, having said that thou constant practice of anything can cause some startling achievements.
 
 
illmatic
09:24 / 02.12.05
I think the answer is in the question: a skill that any person can pick up with sufficient dedication.

It's the dedication/fascination bit that's important. If you have the basic motivation to stick with it, then you'll improve. By which, I don't mean you'll have the fictional ability to make the universe dance at your fingertips and all your spells work, or that you'll never experience upset or distress ever again (which is what some people seem to expect) - rather that you're understanding of the areeas you are interested will grow hugely (alongside your honest recongnition of how much you really don't know), and you'll formualate your own creative approach, and an understanding of what works well for you.
 
 
Sekhmet
15:45 / 02.12.05
I knew I'd get some well-thought out musing from you lot.

The consensus seems to be that it's mostly a matter of having the dedication to devote yourself to the practice, with the caveat that dedication may be predicated on an inclination rooted in innate talent.

Which is true of most things, I suppose. Generally if I try something a few times and can immediately tell that I have no talent for it, I don't find it very enjoyable or engaging, get frustrated, and therefore I can't be arsed to pursue it.

Golf comes to mind.
 
 
eye landed
07:35 / 05.12.05
i think thats a dogmatic modern psychological paradigm: people have tendencies, but anyone can learn anything. im not about to argue against it. magic-as-birthright is an idea formed when genetics/genomics and neurophysiology did not inform our theories of mind.

is this view of mind related to the development of chaos magic? if anyone can do it, they should be able to do it any way they want...sort of thing. or perhaps globalization is a bigger factor.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
22:53 / 05.12.05
Well, and wouldn't it be fair to say that the "magic-as-rare-birthright" paradigm has a lot of roots in the people with magical "power" (and by power, I mean the social and enviromential cachet of being, for example, the village's lone shaman) wanting to ensure that they retain that power?

Personally? I figure anyone can do magic. It's just a matter of most of the factors people have already mentioned.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:08 / 06.12.05
I think that's too simplistic a view. Clearly everyone can "do magic" in the same way that anyone can "play football." But not everyone is necessarily cut out to be a pro football player. Not everyone is George Best. Not everyone is Pele. The same applies to magic as it does to all sorts of other activities, and the "rare birthright" factor is to do with aptitude towards certain skills not supernatural uniqueness. How much of that aptitude is dictated by nature or nurture probably varies from case-to-case. I dunno, even if I practiced football everyday since the age of 4, would that guarantee that I would be as good a player as George Best? I don't think so. So if that level of "rare birthright" factor can operate in football (or art, or darts, or music, or bakery) you would think it would happen in magic.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:59 / 06.12.05
I think it's probably the case that to be really amazingly good at magic you'd need some degree of inborn skill (a la Best, Beethoven, ect).

However, that doesn't stop the rest of us from enjoying a kickabout in the park.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:15 / 06.12.05
It would seem as well that getting a broad magical background is a must for anybody wishing to learn, and then after their broad education perhaps they should specialise in an area that they really have a talent for, also a broad general education would be of use as well.
 
 
Logos
13:59 / 06.12.05
George Best and Pele almost certainly had a genetic gift that enabled them to play football really well--but they became great footballers in part because they spent an enormous amount of time playing football. Hours and hours every day from the time they were small children.

5% of the people in the world have an amazing skill and find improvement really easy. 5% are totally hopeless. The rest of us start in the middle and have to work hard to improve.

On the other hand I firmly believe that the only kind of commitment one needs to have to make most of the techniques we talk about "work" is the same kind of commitment you need to do a cartwheel. I can't guarantee that you'll actually complete a cartwheel even if you really throw yourself into one--but I can guarantee that if you change your mind halfway through the turn you'll fall on your head.

Yet another perspective is that magic is like comedy. It may be that you can't do it at all. You may just be doing it wrong. It may be that someone could tell that specific joke or that type of joke and it would be funny--but you can't. It may be that you could tell the same joke to two different people and only one will think it's funny. Or you may be telling a joke when what you need is penicilin.
 
 
Quantum
19:01 / 06.12.05
The key to acquiring skill at music, football or magic is Motivation. That leads to practice which leads to excellence. There's no gene for football.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:11 / 07.12.05
Personally i dont think it has alot to do with genes, but perhaps more to do with your ancestors, the lives they have lived and how that leads to you. How old your soul is and what its experienced and been before.
 
 
Quantum
13:42 / 07.12.05
How old your soul is and what its experienced and been before.

Hmm. I have a completely different conception of the soul to you I think.
What about Destiny and Fate? Is Beckham simply a tool* of the footballing gods, who hand out genius willy-nilly? Was Beethoven pre-ordained to become a great musician because his old soul had occupied musicians before?
I'm not convinced.

*of course he is
 
 
Logos
22:08 / 07.12.05
There's no gene for football, but there are many genes that help determine how good your coordination, sense of balance, and respiratory capacity are.

No matter what the skill is, everybody's got to start from somewhere.

At least, all of us currently incarnated as humans do. Souls and all.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
00:26 / 08.12.05
However, that doesn't stop the rest of us from enjoying a kickabout in the park.

Exactly what I was trying to get at with my "anybody can do magic" comment.

I figure talent and aptitude plays into it, of course... but the bottom line is that I can kick a ball and have fun with my friends even if I suck at soccer. Pretty damn much anybody who can follow directions can cast a sigil with some success. Not all of those people are going to try and cross the Abyss or thumb-wrestle a machine elf, nor would they probably all want to.

And I don't think that those with the cultural cachet wanting to keep it (or control through which vectors its dispursed) is the *sole* cause of the idea that some people can do magic and some people can't. But I think it's a major cause.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:43 / 08.12.05
W-e-e-e-e-ll... having said that there are rather more risks involved in magic than there are in keepie-up, something it's easy to lose sight of at times.
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:55 / 08.12.05
Well i dont think beckham is nessecarily under the control of the football gods, but i would consider the impact he has had on many peoples lives, young and old, and the inspiration he has enfused in many young minds to be a kind of destiny, he lives very well, id suggest he has alot of good natured souls, living and dead helping him on his way. Also i think his own soul body is in some way more open to these influences and accomedating for what he needs to do.
 
 
Quantum
13:08 / 08.12.05
there are many genes that help determine how good your coordination, sense of balance, and respiratory capacity are.

So, er, what are the physical characteristics needed by a magician? What traits do non-magicians lack that prevents them excelling? If you could genetically engineer a sorceror what would you boost?

Hairy Angel- what's the difference between destiny and genetics in your view?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:15 / 08.12.05
I suppose you could start by breeding for patience in the face of repeated faliure.
 
 
SteppersFan
13:58 / 08.12.05
Mordant
> W-e-e-e-e-ll... having said that there are rather more risks
> involved in magic than there are in keepie-up, something
> it's easy to lose sight of at times.

I dunno. I think the risks are overplayed, it's better to just get on with it. Most people most of the time are pretty unlikely to get into trouble and if they employ some common sense beginners will be fine.

Wheras with footie you can sprain your ankle pretty easily. I know what's riskier for me!
 
 
Digital Hermes
15:51 / 08.12.05
At the risk of totaly derailing the football/sports connexion, my take on it comes to artists, as well. There seems to be a consensus that anyone can write. And that's true. Anyone can put down words on paper. Writing well? Part of it is dedication, another part of it is a vested interest in the art being studied.

Simply writing doesn't make you a good writer, in the sense of someone skilled with words. Anyone can do it; not everyone will necessarily do it well, or easily. Ditto for magic.
 
 
Quantum
17:32 / 08.12.05
Ditto for magic. ...except that magic isn't taught at school and required for everyday life as literacy is. I agree with the sentiment that anyone can do magic but only some will excel, but I think it's more like Accounting- anyone *can* learn to do it, but it's not a standard subject and not many pursue it. Obviously accounting's not a metaphor I'd usually choose, but I'm tired.
 
 
Quantum
17:36 / 08.12.05
I think the risks are overplayed

I think the risk to mental health is all too real. Applying common sense is not something that's easy to do with magic, because most people's common sense excludes the possibility that it works. Add to that the allure of the occult to people with a shaky grasp on the world to start with, and you have the recipe for a stay in a care facility.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:22 / 09.12.05
I think the risks are greater the further you go, really. Early on in your career you might have few problems to wrestle with besides the kind of delusionality that Quantum describes, but as you get out into deeper waters the fish get a lot bigger. IYSWIM. That doesn't mean you should try to avoid doing anything remotely hazardous because you'll never get anywhere, but imagining that this is a risk free business is an error.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:14 / 11.12.05
I dont see a difference between destiny and genetics, i think they reflect each other.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:18 / 11.12.05
The very abstraction that is mental health is an intresting notion, it depends who you wish or what philosophies you wish to credit with authority, i personally think it has more to do with demons (ramsey dukes is more helpful than a psychiatrist in my experience, but its worth knowing the view points of both before reaching your own decision)
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:24 / 11.12.05
Um. Well, possibly you could see genetics as a form of destiny: an individual might be "destined" thus to need glasses, to do rather well in track events, to lose his hair at an early age, ect.

However, most models of destiny are far broader than mere genetics, including life-changing events like becoming King of the Britons or marring one's mother and killing one's father ect. It may be that your model of destiny regards this sort of thing as nonsense, which would be fair enough. In that case, though, I'd have to point to other causitive factors in a person's life which might be regarded as "destiny": a child born into a family that cannot provide hir with adequate nutrition is "destined" to grow up with various physical/mental problems, for example.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:31 / 11.12.05
Destiny is perhaps reflected in many life factors, from all the factors that you mention and others besides, i think it depends upon how you look, how you percieve, and where you are looking from within your own destiny/true will and how close you are to the truth of yourself.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:39 / 11.12.05
Up to a point, sure; but say our hypothetical person was born into a part of the world where people lacked... oh, say, iodine in their diets. Then our guy might grow up with the medical condition known as "cretinism" resulting in skeletal deformities and severe learning difficulties. Is his situation still a matter of perspective? How close is he ever going to get to his true Will?
 
 
Morgana
08:52 / 12.12.05
Is anyone into twin-research, by chance? I've recently watched a feature about twin girls growing up in different families without knowing each other and finally meeting when they were about 40. Those two ladies both had three children, two boys and a girl, nearly the same age and in the same order, and they both miscarried their very first child, which happened in the same month of the same year. Unfortunately that feature didn't say what a geneticists' explanation for circumstances like these could be. I would grant them to destiny, not to genes, but as I don't like to believe in fate, I've really got a problem here.

Anyway, such stories seem to suggest there's not really a difference between genes and destiny - or what do you think?
 
  

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