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Outcome measures in magic

 
  

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Ganesh
23:03 / 27.11.05
In a thread not far away, debate is raaaging about the hows, whys and whethers of defining "success" or "failure" in magical practice. I suspect I'm not alone, as a fascinated but sceptical hoverer-on-the-fringes, in finding this aspect of magic and magicians moderately frustrating - sooo I wanted to isolate the issue within its own thread.

Presumably you carry out magical experiments, yes? By definition, an experiment aims to test, or at least explore, a theory or hypothesis. In order to do so, some sort of outcome measure is required, even if it's comparitively loose.

Can anyone give examples of ways they've attempted to record or quantify the outcome of a piece of magical experimentation? What would be a positive outcome, and what would be a negative?
 
 
The Falcon
23:58 / 27.11.05
Well, alright, I'll describe the sole experience I've ever had of teh magick working.

Some years ago, I was a lonely young man (using Sypha's obvious example in the thread to which you refer - perhaps unnecessarily - obliquely) who sigilised, very originally, to meet someone. Just vague. I think the sentence using the Grant Morrison/DisInfo method was: 'I will have an affair' or 'love affair'. Something like that.

Anyway, around three weeks later, a pal came round to my Dundee flat and had to persuade me very hard to go out. I think I was pretty skint, because otherwise I'd've been on the go no bother. It was an extreme rarity at the time for me to be averse to going out. Anyway, after about an hour or so of intense wheedling, and a headshave pour moi, we went to a jungle night another mutual pal was putting on.

On the way, we saw a couple of girls just behind us, also heading to the same club. Some drinks and a couple of pills later, and one of these girls was absolutely relentless with me. I mean, I'm okay attractiveness-wise, I guess, but that never happens to me. Before or since. I think I'd gone about a year without any sexual contact at this point. I was also pretty intensely shy about chatting girls up, so it was largely a necessity that they be extremely obvious.

Anyway, we ended up at her flat and I know the effects of ecstasy are sort-of... they make you want to believe that something incredible's happening when you're up, but (again, as I recall - this is about four years ago) she started speaking to me about magic and showed me her tarot set (and, as it later turned out, was kind've into comics - think I've still got a couple of her Tank Girls and Deadlines, ackshly. And later still, a kinda habitual liar, but it's best not to dwell - I can't remember if it was on the occasion but she did tell me at some point that all her boyfriends had shaven heads and that they all/most had lived at No.64 which was my flat address at the time) and at that point I was pretty much certain - given the inexorable quality of the night's sequence of events, and unlikelihoods - that the sigil had worked.

Writing it now, it seems less convincing, somehow.
 
 
--
00:18 / 28.11.05
Well, awhile ago I kept a special box filled with soil that I would sometimes "plant" sigils in. Some seemed to work, others did not. But there was one very special sigil that worked really well. I wanted to see an old college classmate again but wasn't able to locate their whereabouts. So I created a sigil with the intent that I would run into that person again. And very shortly after I did so, I frequented one of my regular haunts, only to find that she had gotten a job there.

There was another time, back when I worked part-time at a supermarket, where I wished to feel some sort of connection with Macha, whose bird is the Crow. So while I was pushing shopping carts around outside I said a prayer to her in my mind and soon enough many crows started appearing, following me around, sometimes flying right up to me and cawing at me. This went on for some time until I thanked Macha and after that they flew away. Maybe it was just a big coincidence those events happened as they did, but you never know.
 
 
Ganesh
00:33 / 28.11.05
Duncan, that sounds fairly impressive to me. Out of interest, did you time-limit your outcome measure (eg. 'I will meet someone within the next week/month/year') or did you leave it open ('I will meet someone at some point within the rest of my life')? Did you have even a vague timescale in your head at the time? I ask because I'm wondering how close the result came to your expected/anticipated/hoped for outcome.
 
 
gravitybitch
01:54 / 28.11.05
Sometimes. there's an almost audible/tangible snap when I put my energy behind a wish/request; I usually get that for the little stuff like parking places (followed by a sort of tickle - "turn down this side street?" and the "Aha! Mine!" scramble for the space...).

I also lofted a wish at last October's full moon/eclipse for a bedmate: poly, kinky, pagan... and was romping with exactly that by December. Unfortunately, I didn't specify "local" or my preferred age range and both of those things ended up being difficult.

And if you want to include divination in your definition of magickal workings, my simple three-card draws tend to be scarily dead-on (which is why I keep doing them).
 
 
Morgana
06:20 / 28.11.05
Unfortunately, I didn't specify "local" or my preferred age range and both of those things ended up being difficult.

I know that feeling! When my boyfriend and I were looking for a bigger flat a couple of years ago, it proved extremely difficult to find something even resembling what we wanted at all. So after spending many weekends with useless viewings of ugly places, I made a wish to find the flat of our dreams NOW.

Next weekend we visited the best 3 places we've been seeing so far and decided to take one of them. I hadn't been very specific about the size of the balcony and the amount of rent though, and those are exactly the two points I don't like about the flat. Still, in every other way it's exactly what we wanted, and we're still living here.
 
 
illmatic
07:55 / 28.11.05
Firstly, can I just say that I find the terms of the question a little frustrating - this is something that happens quite a lot when we have discussions on "proving" magick and now seems as good a place to address them as any. It's just that there's a charactarisation of magick as, erm, what I suppose you'd call non-casual phenomena - that is events without an apparent physical link to the "symbolic" actions of our magician, who claims causation through the manipulation of symbols/talking to spirits/whatever.

THe reason I object to that is just because I just find it rather ... narrowing. There's a huge variety of stuff that falls under the heading of "magick" - or that I first became aware of due to my occult studies - that doesn't fit into the "manipulation of phenomena through acasual means" box. For instance, my own practice is largely composed of what you might call practical meditative yoga, rather than anything else, but I've still had what I consider quantifible successes in this field. I've hugely significant results from working with my visual imagination and dreams - again, these aren't "miraculous", they don't undercut or disprove modern physics, but they've been pretty bloody striking to me.

It's just that I sometimes feel this discussion goes "prove it then, do some miracles" and I want to say, "there's so much more to it than that!!" Anytime you step outside a box that you've painted yourself into, anytime you challenge your own thoughtless behaviour, anytime you dsicover something new about yourself - well, my primary inspiration to do these things comes from magical texts and thinking - so to me, these are magickal acts.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:12 / 28.11.05
But these workings are quantifiable, even if they aren't objectively provable. I find myself in a similar position: if I perform a working, make an offering to one of the beings I work with/for/around, I can't offer you any evidence that it "worked."

For a start, most of these workings aren't "for" anything in terms of material or even psychological or emotional gains. They are performed for no other reason than to allow communion between myself and that being, to strengthen the connection to the mysteries that being represents. I can't offer any evidence of this kind of thing being effective; I can compare notes with other people working with the same powers and find my results corroborated or challenged, sure, but I don't have a Polariod photo of a landwight or an MP3 of an ancestral spirit, anything concrete to offer.

Yet I can look at the subjective outcome and say "yup, that went well" or "Ooops, won't use that incense again" and be satisfied in my own mind of the success or faliure of the working.
 
 
Cat Chant
08:31 / 28.11.05
Um, well, first of all, I'm speaking as a rank amateur, so some of the point of posting this is to see what the reaction of more experienced practitioners will be: I won't get upset if it turns out to be "point and laugh."

I don't do workings often, but two out of the three big ones I've done have had (what I took to be) sort of "confirmations" following swiftly on them. Ten years ago or so I did a rebirth ritual and drafted in a couple of friends to help. This was down on the sea front, and we each went and got one of those little plastic eggs-with-toys-in out of a machine in the arcades afterwards. My two friends got random stuff, and I got a huge rubber stag beetle, which at first I was a bit depressed about until my then-boyfriend glared at me and said "dude,* that's a beetle," and I went "oh, yeah, like as in the ancient symbol of rebirth".

Then last weekend I did a working to take a magical 'bomb' out of someone, and just as we were walking back from the river we'd chucked it into (marking the end of the working), someone let off a continuous stream of fireworks, starting just as we reached the edge of the Downs and going on for about five minutes. It was very spooky/synchronous (we hadn't seen any firework-related activity on the way to the river, and it wasn't Hallowe'en or Guy Fawkes or anything - I mean, I know there's a fair chance of seeing fireworks somewhere in England every night between 31 October and 1 January, but the timing/positioning of these was just exact). And, you know, fireworks = hooray, but also explosive.

That one was a big one, though, so we also wrote down the main outcomes we wanted (we'd named them out loud at the start of the working) and we're going to have a look in six months to see whether any measurable progress has been made on them. (Some of them are more quantifiable than others.)

*Obviously not literally. This was, like, 1996 and no-one was saying "Dude" then. Or at least no-one I knew.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:36 / 28.11.05
Ahhh, the ol' plakky egg-with-toys-in oracle. A favourite of mine. See also Kinder Eggs. (Plus a couple of my guys really dig those as offerings.)
 
 
illmatic
08:46 / 28.11.05
To actually answer the question on it's own terms a bit:

Example 1: Practising mental silence. Several times, while moving about my day to day activities, I've practised mental silence. That is, suspending my internal dialogue, and seeing what else arises instead. I've tried this for a week or so - note: that's not permanent silence for a week! It's more an exercise I keep coming back to for the duration of that week, often as an "extension" of sitting meditation. I'd regard success as a) an increased ability to actually do it, 'cos it is difficult at first, b) increased insight into the relationship between my internal dialogue, my sense of self and ego, bodymind etc, c) any tangential benefits - increases in calmness, awareness etc.

Example 2 (and this one does rely on something acasual): Divination with the I Ching. I've attempted divination on any number of matters. I will normally attempt to frame my questions in a certain way - asking "how can I make a success of ..." or "can you reflect this situation" or "consequences of" ... A success is any answer that seems to reflect my question, and gives me new insights, opening up avenues of action or feeling I've not previously seen. Basically, anything that leads to resolution of the tensions around the issue.

Example 3: I’ll chuck this one in, as it’s just happened. Don’t know if it counts as “success”, “failure” or “madness” but anyway – I’ve just had to phone the Council Tax people due to a summons for non-payment . Obviously, I find things like this stressful and upsetting, especially when I’m skint as I am at the moment. I regard actually taking the bull by the horns and phoning them rather than avoiding it as semi-magical anyway, as it’s something I don’t really want to do. So, I meditate on the somatic sensations in my body, butterflies in the stomach, odd sensations in the chest, etc, monitor the outcomes running through my mind (potential frustrations, anticipated screaming matches). I meditate on these, shut up the mind, and accept and try and enjoy the bodily sensations. I find relaxing and “opening” in this way can flood me with emotion and feeling. I’ve used this method in the past to charge sigils ( – I’d only regard this as a success if they worked, obviously). I don’t do that in this instance, but I try and tie the feelings in with attitudes I want to cultivate around money/generosity, acceptance of circumstances and so on. I regard this as a “success” as I’m trying to use my feelings in a situation in a way that empowers me, and I avoid going on the attack and having a huge slanging match.

And, in this instance, it turns out it was their mistake! I don’t regard this as an example of my success with TEH MAGICKZ, and it's a trival example, but I just thought I'd stick it up as an example of how I do things and approach the processing of feelings/sensations.
 
 
Ganesh
09:36 / 28.11.05
Illmatic: fair enough, I'm not asking for 'proof' of working workings, and I'll readily accept that the phenomena I'm groping around for represent a narrow reframing of what you'd consider magic. I suppose I'm trying to get my head around the idea of magical experimentation ie. the extent to which individuals preparing a magical experiment have the terms of that experiment in their heads at the outset, even vaguely. One might have a solidly quantifiable aim ('X will happen within Y amount of time' or other measures of outcome ('this will tell me something about X/Y/myself' or even 'this will get me into a relaxed/constructive/creative state of mind').
 
 
Unconditional Love
10:53 / 28.11.05
A different way of assessing the results and relationships within magical practice with a less reductionist focus could be based upon this persons insights.linked

How magic functions as a net work of associations and practices and how relationships to various areas of magical practice effect the percieved outcomes of magical goals, which since not being static within time, change as they are accomplished and as the magical practitioners desires change effecting the entire network of magical relationships they are currently involved with, but not only limited to the magical sphere of interaction.

Another approach from a more buddhist slant would be the hua yen teachings, flower sutras, which highlight the interdependent nature of all beings, relationships and multinatured expressions.Hua yen
 
 
Ganesh
10:58 / 28.11.05
That's all well and good, but are there times when your magical practice has more readily-quantifiable aims which don't change as your working progresses?
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:15 / 28.11.05
Process theory may also be of some use.Amy on the Evolution of Process Work
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:24 / 28.11.05
well no, it has qualitative aims that are dependent on a network of relationships, but not static goals that remain as a certain quantity, once one thing has been achieved whats next, these arent static building blocks, but forever changing relationships constantly being redefined as awareness of goals change and move, nothing is permanent in a continually evolving world, where all things are evolving interdependently, where one thing changes all things change accordingly in relationship, as soon as something is accomplished a new accomplishment presents itself, the goal is replaced by another goal, yet thaey are part of a process of goals constantly moving and mutating nothing is fixed especially not the realtionships or perceptions, the conceit is in thinking anything can be known or obtained.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:25 / 28.11.05
One thing that comes to mind in relation to this thread is an aspect of my practice that perhaps falls somewhere between the kind of "I did this and this happened" results anecdotes and the sort of thing Illmatic is talking about.

I do a lot of work with Gods. Some of this might fall squarely into the category of going to a deity with a specific problem and asking them for help, in which case the results are quite apparent from how the problem pans out. But that kind of work is pretty tangential to the ongoing relationship with the deity. It's not all about fulfilling a shopping list of results, but more about exploring the mysteries of a deity or group of deities.

By "exploring the mysteries" I mean attempting to gain a deep and emotionally meaningful understanding of the complexity and nature of that God, the specific territory they are concerned with, and how that territory impacts on your life and daily activities.

At it's simplest level, it involves making space for them in your life. Recognising them. Letting them in. This can mean actually building a physical space for them in your life, by creating an altar for them in your home decorated with images that recall them, making service to them on their day of the week, lighting candles in their colours, serving them food and drink that they like, throwing elaborate parties for them on their feast days, and so on. Listening to them. Opening up a dialogue. Trying to get a strong sense of their mysteries and trying to align yourself with them and express those mysteries creatively in your life, through art, music, or simply your attitude and outlook on things. Not in the sense of finite "exercises" but as a continual emergent ongoing process that you're engaged in every day.

Practices that may, on the surface of things and to an uninformed observer, appear to be empty "superstition" are - at least the way I do it - mechanisms for accessing something beyond the recognised parameters of myself, bringing that "other" fully into my life, celebrating it, rejoicing in it, making an ally of it, learning from it, discovering how to be more like it, widening those self-defined parameters so that the "new other thing" finds expression in my home, my personality, my life, my world.

Developing a living relationship with a deity is a bit like developing a relationship with a living human being. It generally involves trying to find a bit of common ground. You tend to recognise a part of yourself that is a bit like them and then cultivate it when you are in their presence. In the same way that certain groups of friends might bring qualities out of you that others don't, relationships with deities can end up developing hidden or stilted facets of you that you may not have given much room to otherwise.
For instance, if you were to hang out with a bunch of gangsters for an extended period, you would probably find yourself soaking up certain attitudes and outlooks on the world as a result of emersion in that environment. By having a relationship with a deity, you step into their territory in a similar way, moreso, you are actively seeking to be shaped and influenced by the specific mysteries they embody.

I've found this sort of process a tremendously positive and empowering influence in my life. It has opened immense vistas of my personality that I hadn't really given much thought or attention to in quite the same way, and these internal changes have led quite solidly to very tangible real world changes in my life, for which I'm more grateful and awed by than I can really say. But it's more than a psychological conditioning exercise, again, that can be seen as a tangential benefit. More than anything, it's about exploring the mysteries of existence and trying to understand what moves us, what drives us, what we're all about. I've learned a lot from this practice, it's taught me some really valuable stuff, and I don't mean unquantifiable "teh darq secrets" but plain insights into the nature and powers of my own being, the world I exist within, and the fundamentally "magical" overlaps between the two. And the more that unfolds, the more I realise how little I actually know in the light of what is revealed.

That's my results. The long-term ones. The one's that really matter. It's useful to be able to nudge an outcome through sorcery, but magic is a wider, deeper and longer game than what you might see on the surface.
 
 
Morgana
11:28 / 28.11.05
Talking about magical experiments, some friends and me used to do some techno-magical tests, including the "charging" of postings with images, emotions and the like, with some interesting outcome.

For example, one morning I put the taste of my breakfast tea into a posting, not specifying in any way it was a taste at all. My friend who opened the posting immediately stated it was some kind of hot drink and then was surprised at the amount of milk I like to put in my tea...

Generally, the outcome seems to depend on the talent of the person who charges and of the person who recieves, too. We found out that if both are talented, this kind of communication works rather well (I nearly got sick once, because someone posted a box of sweets containing hazelnuts, on which I was reacting slightly allergic, then).
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
12:36 / 28.11.05
GL as erudtite as ever, sums it up for me.

I have yet to seriously attempt any 'results-based' magic of the type you appear to be referring to in your opening post...acausal manipulation of phenomena through willed working, or whatever definition you care for...

The best example I can think of where I have done any such thing is at the commencement of a major project for a new client, prior to sleep I would thoroughly imagine the congratulations, adulations and feelings thereof associated with its succesfull completion...the praise of the third parties involved, the meal we'd go for on completion, the sound of the finished project (it was a song/production), the mix room we'd use, the mastering suite, every detail, all as I was just crashing out...The intent being to plant the future result in the non-linear, extra-spatial unconscious such that the method would manifest with the greatest of ease in the conscious present...What can I say? It 'worked' like a charm, but is that magic? I dunno, maybe I'm just shit hot anyway ;-)

To me, there is no result which is not a type of magic...I guess entheogenic experience really helps bring the point home, but we are all wizards and witches plugged into the most extraordinary sytem : you think of something, and if you intend it seriously enough, it happens...Isn't that, just a bit, magic?

You think it, and it happens. OK, you need intent, and sincerity in between, but it is textbook fantasy nonsense, really, The Twilight Zone : Movie 3rd installment. Whatever pops into your head will come to pass if you intend it seriously enough (and live long enough)...it just probably won't happen in the manner, timescale or parameters which you had 'in mind'. I have demonstrated this to myself in my meagre 31 years time and time again.
The arch-magus, if you like, then, is one who is able to either dictate timescales and manner of manifestation with a high rate of accuracy or, which I would go along with more, one who is always mindful of what they thinking into existence, and accepting of the haphazard and unpredictable nature of 'time' as experienced and manifestation.

I know magical workings have worked because I am a vastly different person to who I was before I started working, and much improved...as GL points out, once you begin working alongside and within the mysteries of apparently disembodied and independent spirit/godform allies (though who knows? I don't really care what they 'may be' according to a different concetual or paradigmatic (?word?) reading, I haven't the time or energy or desire to argue with a tradition that works and makes perfect sense within its own terms) they begin to manifest in your life, both inside and out, in striking, noticeable (to you and others) and valuable ways. These results are then fed back into the system at large as you interact with other people and the community around you, and thus are 'material' results wrought...

I think its easy to dismiss the notion of magic because conscious attention is time-bound and short-sighted. Remove the passage of years and the inherent complexity of the system between a thought and its result and you have Abracadabra all over the shop in my experience.
 
 
Quantum
13:36 / 28.11.05
What Illmatic said, what Mordant said, what Gypsy said. I always seem to post that, but I will have more to say anon once it's clearer in my head.

But just to muddy the waters a little check this out that I was told last night- A friend is an artist, at the end of her road is a garden concreted over and filled with Gnomes (the sinister cheery plaster ones with fishing rods etc. not the earth spirits) in bad repair. She thinks of it as the Gnome Graveyard, and has been walking past it for a couple of years, it's unchanging and the antithesis of a real garden.
So she has an Art project and decides to do it on the Gnome Graveyard, did a painting of the garden with one of the gnomes (her favourite) escaping, she poured herself into it as a good artist should ("I gotta paint RIGHT NOW!"). The next day, she walks past the garden (unchanged for years) and one of the gnomes is missing. The one she painted escaping. She's a proto-buddhist and saw it as the Cosmos contacting her, but I see it as magic.

But that's not all. The next picture in the series is of the gnomes frolicking about, and one of them is a headless mermaid, how sad. She painted the head on (and made it kind of mermaid/angel hybrid but that's beside the point).
THE NEXT DAY she walks past the Gnome Graveyard, and guess what? Someone in the house has found the missing head, gone into the garden and glued it back on, the Headless Mermaid is now the Mermaid, just like the picture.

So, she isn't into magic, had no intention of changing the real world, but by using techniques for Art that magicians use (emotional involvement, intense visualisation, creative ritual etc.) she freed a gnome and repaired a mermaid (according to my 'reality tunnel'). I told her to paint a starving artist getting loads of cash but I think she sees that as immoral.

Would that sort of coincidence count as measurable outcome? There was no deliberate intent, it wasn't an experiment, she had no idea it would happen and isn't into magic. Does anecdotal second hand evidence of accidental workings count as evidence? Does to me, stinks of magic.
 
 
Ganesh
13:50 / 28.11.05
Well, I'm not really pushing for measurable outcome. It's more that I'm trying to understand whether practitioners of magic here usually (or ever) think in terms of outcome. If not, fine. I'm possibly coming at this from a particular angle because my own introduction to magic (other than occasionally buying a mainly Wicca-based fanzine) was via comics, Moore and Morrison. The latter, in particular, around the time he was majorly into sigils, tended to present magic as a working (if oblique) system within which one might observe quantifiable results, short-to-medium as well as long-term.

The more I learn in the Temple, the more magic seems more akin to open-ended/dynamic psychotherapy (hardly a new revelation in these 'ere parts), something which can also be quite difficult to measure in terms of outcome.
 
 
illmatic
14:18 / 28.11.05
All I can say is that that Morrison model - "they always work", I think he says on his website - never worked for me, though rather than taking it as a blow to my fragile ego (as some round here seem to do), it made me think for myself and value my own experience. I did experiment with sigils when I was desperate to prove that "something" worked and I'm not afraid to say that mostly they were dudes, a lot of time. But gradually, the "proof" I wanted came to me from elsewhere.

Interestingly enough, the things that did bear results happened when I'd got bored anticipating them, and had given up, a process that still seems to happen now.
 
 
Ganesh
14:24 / 28.11.05
Most of my ritual wanking has been over dudes, too.

(Silly. Sorry.)
 
 
electric monk
14:36 / 28.11.05
Thanks for starting this thread, Ganesh. There's a lot I want to say here, and I hope I can order it in a sensible way.

This is an example of an experiment I conducted last year. At the outset, my attitude was pretty much, "let's see what happens." I think my general expectations at the time were an increase in energy and a fortification of my spirit. Not really measurable in the generally accepted sense, but there ya go. What I got was a rather nice course in the basics (visualization, vibration, breathing), an unpleasant slap upside the head when I moved away from my commitment to the work, and a "balance" within myself that was picked up on by others. That last is significant, I think, because the people who commented about this to me had no way of knowing about my efforts. They saw change in me within the timeframe of my ongoing work, and saw enough change to think to comment on it and ask me how I was doing it.

It's more that I'm trying to understand whether practitioners of magic here usually (or ever) think in terms of outcome.

I do try, and one of the ways I try to set some gauges is with a Statement of Intent. It helps to have a sentance or two stating clearly what one expects to achieve with a given set of actions. When something seems to have worked, it's helpful to go back to the SoI and see if events have unfolded along the lines and pathways you intended. If the answer's no, then it's a failure. If the answer's yes, then you may just be a magician. It's still necessary to be your own worst critic as well as your own biggest fan in these cases, as it can be tempting to jump at any set of circumstances that confirm one's hopes or aspirations.

Lastly, unhelpful as this may be, I tend to get a *snap* of recognition when something has worked for me. It's a knowing, possibly akin to a Fundamentalist's knowing that God has spoken to them or answered their prayers. It's not there when I fail, and no amount of searching for justification will spark it. Unmistakeable for the successes tho.
 
 
Quantum
14:37 / 28.11.05
Yeah, 'they always work' my arse. Sorry GM, it just ain't so.
 
 
illmatic
14:38 / 28.11.05
That was a typo. Honest.
 
 
Quantum
14:43 / 28.11.05
That responding to Ill's sigil post obviously.

Electric monk, I know what you mean- you can tell when something is a result I think by the feeling, it fits like an elegant solution to a chess puzzle or crossword clue, or when you write or compose something good.
(When Harry Met Sally- "I just knew. Like the way you know with a good melon.")
 
 
EvskiG
15:25 / 28.11.05
Seems to me that there are at least two forms of magic: practical magic aimed at achieving a specific result in the material world, and magic aimed at spiritual improvement (or communion with a higher self or deity).

Whenever I practice the first form I try to measure tangible, real-world results -- did something happen along the lines I intended that didn't seem likely to happen otherwise? If so, I deem the working a success. If not, I consider the working to be a failure.

I've had plenty of failures over the years. In my more thoughtful moments I try to figure out if there was any reason I can point to for why the working failed. (Did the ritual in a slapdash manner, didn't take any real-world steps to accomplish my goal, etc.) In my less thoughtful moments I simply let the matter slide.

Of course, it's always possible that a ritual didn't work because magic isn't real, and I'm simply deluding myself.

I'll offer personal examples of successful and unsuccessful workings:

Several years ago I was working on an enormously complicated case at work. A couple of adversaries were making the matter even more difficult by hassling my elderly, sick client, by acting unprofessionally, and by writing me a variety of harassing letters -- as many as three per day -- all of which had to be responded to on the day they were received. Finally, at 11 PM and still at work, I grabbed a pad and pen in exasperation and quickly created and fired off a sigil to make them STOP!

All of the harassing conduct stopped instantly. (I later found that one of my adversaries had gotten very ill a few days before my ritual.) We prevailed in the case, and my adversaries eventually were formally sanctioned for their conduct, which caused them years of grief.

I'd consider that to be a success.

On the other hand, just a few weeks ago I was feeling exasperated with a case I was working on. In a spirit similar to that noted above, I cast an impromptu sigil to make the matter settle.

It didn't. What's more, I ended up having to attend a two-week-long trial halfway across the state while suffering from a painful herniated disc, which caused me to limp around the courtroom like a peg-legged pirate. While I had a great time, and while I think I advanced my career by going to trial, the ritual was a complete failure.

I could rationalize things by saying, "Ah, the Universe clearly thought it was more important for you to have this valuable experience than to simply settle the case. In the long run, you accomplished a goal that was even more important than the goal you consciously tried to achieve."

Well, no. I sought a specific goal with my working and failed to achieve it. So it goes.
 
 
MrCoffeeBean
15:45 / 28.11.05
Magick is not a supermarket, it doesnt give you a product, a result. Its a state of mind, an outlook at the world. magick workings never stop, never ends: A result? maybe thats the wrong word to use. in the word result there is this touch of a finished product. I try to avoid thinking in that line, it limits my thinking.
The "i need to get laid", "need to get trough this class at university", "want a job" stuff would proberly happen without magick too... When doing that stuff its more about "egoboosting", or hyping up youre selfconfidence so you make things happen that you would have made happen anyway. and yeah i do magick like that too, but remember that is just a way of fooling youreself. But it do works... ive gotten laid and shit whenusing magick but if that is all youre using it for... maybe youre missing the ponit.

Im not even sure magick is a good path to choose,it fucks up youre life...
 
 
electric monk
16:48 / 28.11.05
The more I learn in the Temple, the more magic seems more akin to open-ended/dynamic psychotherapy (hardly a new revelation in these 'ere parts), something which can also be quite difficult to measure in terms of outcome.

It can be, and my practice has shaded into that area a few times. It bothered me when I first realized it, thinking it invalidated the magic somehow, made it "not real". But I've come to realize that magic can and does encompass a lot of fields of study and avenues for change (inner and outer) "in accordance with the Will". It is difficult to measure the efficacy of these "theraputic workings", and here I think it's best to fall back on, "Am I healthy? Happy? Productive? etc."

Ganesh, what are the methods you use to measure the progress of your clients? Totally not snarking. I'm interested to see them, and am guessing they're applicable here.
 
 
Ganesh
16:56 / 28.11.05
I don't do psychotherapy, myself. Psychiatric successes and failures are easier to quantify. I can tell you about those if you like, but I'm not sure they're as good an analogy as psychotherapy.
 
 
electric monk
17:10 / 28.11.05
Oops, sorry. My ignorance is showing. Anything you think is applicable is fine by me.
 
 
Chiropteran
18:10 / 28.11.05
Something that hasn't gotten a lot of play upthread is practical sorcery or (aptly) "results magic." Not so popular with Western Trad occultists, but it's the mainstay of folk magic. If I Hot Foot someone, I measure success by whether or not they leave town, and how fast. Success with gambling magic means I come home with more money than I started with, preferably much more. If I curse someone, and they wither and die in short order, then the curse was successful (if they die in bed twelve years later, not so much).

How much of this type of "success" can be clearly attributed to magic is debatable, especially if one is working to prevent something ("still alive - protection mojo works!"). Still, a sharp and sudden change in fortune (for better or for worse) that dates from the moment of the working is at least suggestive. A lot of people also find that the product of the working comes to them through a series of strange coincidences. To be honest, I have never witnessed magical results that irrefutably defied a non-magical explanation, but I have had many results that represented a "significant deviation from the way things typically work out," for what that's worth.

To gauge whether or not a particular (major) working is/will be a success, I was taught the general guideline of "threes": watch for signs (dreams, synchronicity) within three days, "movement" (things starting to happen) within three weeks, and final result/resolution within three months -- and if you haven't achieved what you worked for in that time, then any future events are unlikely to be a result of your work. In practice, I've never had to wait three months: usually it's within a week or not at all.
 
 
The Falcon
18:19 / 28.11.05
Ganesh, just returning to your question, I'm pretty sure I didn't have a specific time scale in mind - I do think I recall reading somewhere that three was a pretty significant number in terms of payoff; three months, weeks, days... but I may have imposed three weeks retroactively as duration because of this (mmmmaybe it was 23 days.) I did used to try imposing time periods in one or two of the [single digit] amount of them that I ever tried, and while some of these could've been construed to have worked (and I did desperately want to believe it at the time) I don't think those did. The sentences became rather too lengthy, and you'd end up trying to wire half the letters of the alphabet into the shape -> mess.

Forgot to mention that at the point where it seemed to work, I did have a strong conviction that y'know 'magic was happening' (could've been the drugs, of course) and I recalled what I'd done; creating the sigil, having since forgot or at least not had uppermost in mind. Don't think I recalled it's shape.
 
 
The Falcon
18:20 / 28.11.05
P.S. Aces thread, so far.
 
  

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