Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.

Underground > Temple >

We've been here before... but let's have it out again

Page: 1(2)3

18:08 / 23.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Johnny the Zen bastard:
Here's something I've always wondered. Where, exactly, would Shamanism fall on the left hand/right hand path deal? Wasn't it around long before the paths really seperated?

Also, remember that shamanism is a methodology as well as, arguably, a religion.

It is not something that only existed long ago and it is still practiced in many different contemporary cultures within contemporary religious frameworks. Some of those frameworks have some nasty dogmatic dualities in them.

While the origins of cross-cultural shamanism are ancient, the cultures that western anthropology labels 'shamanic' were diverse in their beliefs and in the time periods that shamanism were/are most prominent.

18:09 / 23.01.02

Will "it work": Not at all! Rumours of my being the Nasty Mean Bitch of Barbelith's Magick Forum are simply untrue

I do get irritable when subjects like left hand/right hand or low/high magic come up. And I will argue against false distinctions like that, because I strongly feel that such distinctions are shite. But it shouldn't be taken as a personal attack.

[ 23-01-2002: Message edited by: Ierne ]

09:02 / 24.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Ierne:
Will "it work": Not at all! Rumours of my being the Nasty Mean Bitch of Barbelith's Magick Forum are simply untrue

My goodness, how could anyone think such a thing of you Ierne?

If clear thinking and concise statements = Nasty Mean Bitch, then we need a few more of you around!

Less searchable M0rd4nt

09:02 / 24.01.02

Oh.
This.
Again.

*sigh*

Path, schmath. I don't consider myself right-hand, left-hand, or any other damn path. Yeah, I can, have and probably will continue to lay "curses" if somebody hurts me and I have no other recourse. It's my nature. Yeah, I can, have and probably will continue to help people out whenever they ask for it, even if it's the same person I cursed yesterday. That's my nature as well.

I like to help people more than I like to harm them- even tho' nobody is policing me either way. I mean, I could be saving the planet or invoking Gozer the Destructor, who'd know? Nobody. Except me.

Humans are funny bastards. We contain all these different impulses, all these layers and layers of desire and intent. Nothing we do is ever simple. Was that an act of pure altruism or an attempt to salve your concience? Was that a real curse or a misdirected attack on some aspect of yourself? How the hell do you know? And this is magick, kiddies; you're working at a level of awareness beyond the everyday.
You can't ever be "good" or "evil". Most people think they're good- how many are right?

All you can ever be is yourself; all you can ever do is what feels right at the time. I'd like to believe that taken overall my actions harm less than they heal, in my temporal as well as my magickal life.

Wholeness pleases me. Harm doesn't. That's my nature. That's all I've got.

[ 24-01-2002: Message edited by: Mordant C@rnival ]

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

09:02 / 24.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Mordant C@rnival:

Path, schmath. I don't consider myself right-hand, left-hand, or any other damn path.

Well, of course not. I seriously doubt anyone here actually considers hirself left hand/right hand, and they certainly wouldn't admit it in this place. Not with all the "escape duality/get out of the binary world" stuff going around (not that this is a bad thing. I'm sure we all need a reminder from time to time). Labels are silly, "the name that can be named is not the eternal name" and so on.

However. As Alan Watts tells us in his The Book, labels are neccessary in interacting with everyone else, otherwise there would be no way to tell you to meet me at the corner of 4th and Broadway on Tuesday, November 8th of the year 2002. So such terms are useful so long as you don't put too much faith in their value.

My question was that if you did classify Shamanism (or any other field of mysticism/magik/religion) where would you put it, or does it in fact absolutely impossible to come even close to classification? Just an attempt to learn more about it. You know, trying to learn some new aspect I had overlooked or something (as I'm sure there are parts that fit into some label or other, and I'm just as sure that I probably haven't seen it yet. I'm still fairly new to it, after all).

Thanks for mentioning Lothar's article. I had forgotten all about it (sorry, Lothar).

[ 24-01-2002: Message edited by: Johnny the Zen bastard ]

09:02 / 24.01.02

<watches the dust settle>

Well, thanks for going through that... I was mostly curious to see how duality was percieved by the massed practitioners here. And of course duality is a red herring. What I've found interesting here is the way that 'rhp' people don't often identify as such, and neither do 'lhp'... but people seem to often identify practices they don't like as belonging to the opposite 'side.' Duality sneaking in through the back door.

Rockbitch got me thinking about this because they self-identify as LHP but carve the line of duality along a tantric/ascetic (sp?) arc. Now ultimately that's gotta be maya too... but clearly they're getting mileage out of it. Hmmm. where am I going with this? beats me.

09:02 / 24.01.02

btw anyone try that visualisation?

09:02 / 24.01.02

On shamanism, I think the question sould be narrowed to the nationality of the shamanism, but, trying to make it general, I would think that most arcaic shamnisms combine both paths.
We should set appart Castanedian neoshamanism, which can easily be categorized as Left path, because of its individualism. No offense to anyone, I'm open to discussion.

09:02 / 24.01.02

Will, hunts through his 'closet of esoteria' for his +2 rhino hide shield and LHP/RHP randomiser

12:42 / 24.01.02

I was mostly curious to see how duality was percieved by the massed practitioners here. – Flame On

Perhaps it would have been appropos to check our archives? Understandably there are 17 pages worth to sift through, but I can assure you they are informative and never boring. Of course, time is always an issue; so I've kindly brought up past threads concerning this very topic and will link to them. (My deepest apologies to Mordant Carnival, who suffered right along with me through many of these threads.)

Magick--a means to change your life?

As an addendum to the above: Squabble-in

Chaos Magician Bashing is the new Wicca Bashing

About a week or so later!!! Low and High

I am quite sure that this post will come across as harsh, and am well and truly prepared for any rotten vegetables that come my way (PM me please, thanks). I will only state (once again, in three-part harmony) that I have no personal animosity towards anyone on this board or in this forum. You're all lovely, intelligent people.

But dammit! Check out the archives. That's why they're there.

13:23 / 24.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Johnny the Zen bastard:

My question was that if you did classify Shamanism (or any other field of mysticism/magik/religion) where would you put it, or does it in fact absolutely impossible to come even close to classification? Just an attempt to learn more about it. You know, trying to learn some new aspect I had overlooked or something (as I'm sure there are parts that fit into some label or other, and I'm just as sure that I probably haven't seen it yet. I'm still fairly new to it, after all).

While I think someone could (and people certainly have in the past) clasify any system using another systems terminology, in my opinion, in order to really understand something it's usually better to enter the other system.

If you want to understand another person it can be better to 'put yourself in their shoes', if you want to understand a culture you can best do that by living in that culture for awhile. And subsequently, in order to understand any spiritual or magical paradigm it it best done by experiencing that paradigm.

I'm not sure that forcing any system that doesn't adhere to a dualistic moral code into a western-magical judeo-christian set of morals isn't like trying to force the square peg into the round hole.

You can get them to fit but it takes more effort than it's worth and it also ends up with broken bits that had to be sheared off in the process.

14:46 / 24.01.02

ierne: thanks for the linkage. Food for thought. Hoom.

everyone: thanks for that and sorry for putting you through it... apologies if anyone has been hacked off by this thread, which (usual disclaimer) was not intended to etc etc. i'd have to say that I still have unanswered questions, but they are now much better formulated, and one of the best ways to get the right answer is to make sure you understand the question.

clearly in a very high and true sense duality is illusion. even a joke. But it's also one of the most frequently used gizmos in the toybox of the mind, however integrated one's consciousness (and if you wish to disprove this, write me a post that doesn't use any dualistic terminology: here, in a sentence refuting dualism, I've used 'high' and 'true' as well as 'illusion'. Mind you, you'd also have to resolve the dualistic/antidualistic duality... my head hurts, can I go now?)

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

15:30 / 24.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan:

I'm not sure that forcing any system that doesn't adhere to a dualistic moral code into a western-magical judeo-christian set of morals isn't like trying to force the square peg into the round hole.

You can get them to fit but it takes more effort than it's worth and it also ends up with broken bits that had to be sheared off in the process.

Now that's an analogy!

16:31 / 24.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Flame On:
clearly in a very high and true sense duality is illusion. even a joke.

I know I am taking your comments out of context to some extent, but, for all too many people, duality is way more than an illusion. Just look at the world political spectrum, far too many people see only in terms of black and white with little room for debate. For these people the illusion of duality is a way of life.

I have such a hard time explaining my political views to people because I am not a liberal or a conservative, as well as my sexual orientation. Too many people buy duality wholesale and it makes it difficult to communicate complex views.

We are kind of spinning are wheels here, all of us on the board are equipped to handle multiple viewpoints, and it is not each other who need to hear about the phantasmal nature of duality.

Argh

-Rev. Jesse

(and for what its worth, I play a neutral halfling wizard)

Less searchable M0rd4nt

16:42 / 24.01.02

Sorry if that last post of mine came across as stroppy. It's partly because I'm still smarting a little from the threads Ierne's mentioned, and partly because I am evil! EEEEEVILLLLL, I tell you!!!!

Look, I've got black nail-varnish on and everything! Are ya scared yet? Are ya?

17:29 / 24.01.02

Heh. I do have to say that some practical dualities and trinities can be good things.

For example, when I go mushroom hunting, I like to keep in mind a 'trinity' of mushrooms

1: The good to eat, yummy for your tummy mushroom (personal taste not withstanding).

2: The not good to eat, loose your lunch bunch.

3: The you can eat them...once, loose your life bunch.

While all mushrooms are the same from a certain point of view, I find keeping this 'trinity' in mind to be most useful and practical in my life.

17:49 / 24.01.02

[pointless digression]
But isn't that just a trinity of good, bad, and somewhere in the middle? Yes, No, Maybe. Its still based on duality, rather than 3 discrete elements. Trinity would be more like red, blue, and green. Though possibly in this case: Nutritious, poison, and "will let you talk to God"

If 0,1 is a duality, 0,1,2 can't be because 2 is just 1,1, rather than a unique value. 0,1,infinity works, however, because infinity cannot be defined in terms of 1 or 0. That's the one I fall back on when thinking in base 3.

1/0=inf

17:58 / 24.01.02

Hmm. Could be.

I tend to think of it more as a trinity because the differences between the loose your lunch bunch and the deadly ones is that it's a completely different set of toxins.

But I think you're right in that the 'loose your lunch bunch' are probably closer to either one of the spectrums depending on the actual mushroom than being it's own true thing.

I do like your trinity of nutritious, toxic, entheogenic though.

I think that's a valid trinity.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

18:49 / 24.01.02

What about edible mushies that taste scrummy but look grim, like shaggy ink-caps?

And what about the mushroom's point of view, eh? How "good" is it to be edible? Is it "better" to be nourishing or hallucinogenic?

18:58 / 24.01.02

<fungal rot>
quote:Originally posted by Mordant C@rnival:
What about edible mushies that taste scrummy but look grim, like shaggy ink-caps?

Personal preference

. An aquaintance of mine eats all sorts of (IMNSHO) nasty tasting shrooms and thinks they taste great.

quote:
And what about the mushroom's point of view, eh? How "good" is it to be edible? Is it "better" to be nourishing or hallucinogenic?

That's the beauty of shrooms, the main organism is under the ground the shroom we eat is kind of like the fruit of the fungus. Different shrooms in the same area can actually be part of the same organism. And some of us weird shroom ingesters are convinced that the shrooms want us to eat them.

I heard Christopher Hobbs speaking at the Santa Cruz Fungus Fair (no... I'm not making that up

) a couple of weeks ago and he mentioned a fungal organism somewhere in the states (I'm forgetting the exact type and location right now) that is considered the oldest living and largest organism in the world. And it's mostly underground.

Creepy innit?

</fungal rot>...time for a mushroom thread? Where would it go? The Laboratory?

20:56 / 24.01.02

In a very large mason jar?

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

22:43 / 24.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan:
[QB]I heard Christopher Hobbs speaking at the Santa Cruz Fungus Fair (no... I'm not making that up )[qb]

Fantastic! I must see a website or something.

23:38 / 24.01.02

This site has links to the fairs as well as the Fungus Federation of Santa Cruz.

Now, thanks to Mordant C@rnival, we can take the fungus from Barbelith over here.

[ 25-01-2002: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]

Good Antlerhead

04:34 / 25.01.02

Ah Jesus, the Santa Cruz fungus fair... of all the things to give your town a reputation...

06:46 / 25.01.02

SHROOOOMS
THis year I have been mostly eaten 'Philosopher's Stone', which is more of a truffle. Less visual and auditory, but 'man' major DNA fractal soul intellegence.

Last lot several weeks ago, with a Reiki herbalist friend. He used Reiki I used Runes. I have to say very profound and healing, goddam it has had incredibly noticable effects, shit has lifted. Very old shit.
New Years, Amsterdam, Dutch Party, me early DJ set, then Philosper's stone (sorry can't remember how to spell other name) and one hell of a meta-narrative. Happy New Year. Next day LOTR. Luvvley.

I Digressed didn't I. OOOPs

14:07 / 25.01.02

Taking the risk of returning to the topic.

In philosophy, dialectic is used as a method to analyze, a "stencil" imposed on the phenomenon you want to study.

This thing on RHP and LHP is just a practical division regarding ethical views of magic. Imposing cathegories over reality doesn't mean reality has to adjust to cathegories.

14:53 / 25.01.02

GODDAMN IT!

Reality damn well better conform to expectations and categorizations if it knows what's good for it!

Otherwise, I may have to get my gnosis on!

Boo-yah!

-Rev. Jesse

17:17 / 25.01.02

Getcah, getcha, getcha,
getcha Gnosis on

Indeed is not duality of LHP and RHP based on others perceptions of ones actions?

Fuck off, you are not playing that Neutral/Neutral Ranger

Oh please.......

06:23 / 26.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Ierne:
Magick--a means to change your life?

As an addendum to the above: Squabble-in

Chaos Magician Bashing is the new Wicca Bashing

About a week or so later!!! Low and High

But dammit! Check out the archives. That's why they're there.

Its like shampoo, isn't it?
Lather, rinse, repeat.

OW! I gots some in my I's!
(36 / 4) + (1 * 2) = 1 (mod 5)

Less searchable M0rd4nt

13:02 / 26.01.02

quote:Originally posted by ciarconn:
Taking the risk of returning to the topic.

No! No! Let's flee while we still can!!!

13:38 / 26.01.02

So I was thinking that the Middle Pillar exercise, as outlined for Regardie, is more a experiment with biofeedback and muscle tension than a model for contrasting the LHP and RHP.

18:56 / 26.01.02

I tried the visualisaton that Flame on suggested. Wow! that was cool! I won't say what I saw because I don't want to influence others if they try this. PM me to compare notes, if you want.

~May Tricks

17:22 / 28.01.02

I'm a Taoist, there is Yin and Yang and everything (the Tao) is composed of the interplay of the two. You can't have yin without Yang. In this way the question changes from "how can I exist with this duality?" to "how did I think I could exist without it?"

02:29 / 29.01.02

Shamanism is a left-hand path system.

Why?

Because all good magicians are left-handed.

It's true.

I'm left-handed!

Actually, there's no left-hand/right-hand duality because the posotion of the hands changes when you look at them from different angles. Hell, what is the left-hand path and what is the right hand path? And who decides what?

Oh and while I agree about the need for labels we must realize that they serve us most usefully when we can actually all agree on what the lables represent.

Monkey Moo.

15:50 / 29.01.02

I don't know what you mean by 'lfethand' and 'righthand'- IMHO, magic shouldn't have anything to do with politics. Personally I would say that i was a 'black magickian', because I basically belive in 'enlightened selfishness'- you should always look out for yourself. Altruisticness is basically a fake construct of society. If you do 'good' its usually to make yourself feel less guilty or something. But I'm a strong enough person that I don't need to hide behind stuff like that.

Page: 1(2)3