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We've been here before... but let's have it out again

 
  

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Naked Flame
09:15 / 22.01.02
Following on from the whole rockbitch thread (The Ultimate Magick 'n' Music?) I wanted to kick something else off so as not to threadrot tooooooo much...

Duality. LHP and RHP. I realised, reading and resonding to that thread, that I really *don't* understand people that identify as LHP. In fact, I don't understand it as a concept- I've been using it as a convenient shorthand for 'thee magick wot i do not do.' And I realise that in a final analysis all dualities are false. I'm aware of my own darkness and I'm also aware that in a sense it gives a shape and structure to my life- it's part of the bargain we make with each breath. That said, I focus on manifesting light, and that's because what's in me is to glow. (hence, I guess, my choice of ficsuit.)

Once at a seminar on Enochian magic, trying to resolve this very question, a couple of wise old ladies gave me the following:

visualise all the light in yourself and your life as a glowsphere you're holding between your outstretched hands. Hold the thought. Release. Now visualise all the darkness in yourself and hold on to that for a mo.

Now, here comes the trick: visualise one sphere in one hand, and one in the other. Slowly, bring them together and see what happens when you bring them into the same space.

At this time I won't post my experience of that visualisation- I don't want to preconfigure your own experience as you try it yourself.

This, for me, resolved the duality thing in my own head and my own life. But I'm interested in how other people deal with the concept. Which side are you on? Any takers? Anyone here identify as LHP? (or rhp for all that) Care to explain why? Resolved the duality for yourself? How?

'I'm on the side with butter on it, me.'- Jack Frost
 
 
Papess
09:15 / 22.01.02
I believe ultimately there is no right or left path! In our world everything is broken down from that ultimate purity. I have a left hand and a right one, a left brain and a right one, I am good and I am bad, I am negative and positive, I am female in some ways...male in others...and so on.
Having studied the cabbalah for so many years, I am constantly referencing with the Tree of Life. I would like to say that without the left, right or middle pillar the whole system crumbles.
The middle path encompasses the left and right by it's very nature. I love both Christ and Lucifer equally but for different reasons. I cannot deem one path better than another. My heart says to embrace all of it.

~May Tricks
 
 
ciarconn
09:15 / 22.01.02
Psychologically, it'shealthier to accept oneself in totality, than to repress a part that can be considered (morally or religiously) bad.

Harnessing the power of the Light and the dark allows humans to be more fluid, to have a better access to reality.

BUT accepting and asimilating the "dark" side, does not mean to let oneself go into the dark side. Hell, it does not mean that one has to be a "bad boy" just to unrepress the darkside.

The budists do not repress their incstincts/animal/bad side. They assimilate it and let it dissapear, (as much as the good side) because both are made of our desires and commands
 
 
Papess
09:15 / 22.01.02
ciarconn, those buddhists are truly cool. I happen to be one . Just one of my many hats. It is realy conducsive to integration and complete awareness. In the end though it is let go and so is the buddhist path itself. You have to love a religion that admits to being nothing in the first place!

~May Tricks
 
 
Rev. Wright
09:15 / 22.01.02
In my philosophy there are no multiple paths, there is merely your one personal path and the ones walked by others. There is no duality as such, but merely the various elements from which one builds a lantern with which to guide one along the path. Any sense of duality is constructed by the effect these elements have on others/relationships in ones life. It is at this point of contact with others and/or our blindness to this that provokes value judgements.
In the thread that I started regarding said rock band, I do not stipulate that they are walking a LHP, but point out the inherent damage and upset that spreads from using a lantern made from the elements they exhibit. It is I that engages on value judgements through my interaction with them.
In mental health to state that there is two sides or an equal distillation of both, confuses and harrasses the ill, by confining their options to one of three, all of which are impossible to maintain as a constant. The mind works in spirals and cycles, with warious emotions/thoughts/feelings occuring simultaniously and overlapping. It comes only at a point of mirroring by other beings that one can gauge a reaction to the lantern one carries. The more selfaware or self-reading one is the brighter the lantern, this can result in joy or pain equally.
Balance becomes adept once the footsteps are sure on all surfaces that ones path covers.
 
 
angel
12:07 / 22.01.02
I hope I have understood this correctly and so what I have to say will be relevant.

A friend of mine recently asked me if I was a White Witch. To which I worldwearily rolled my eyes and drew breath to bring forth my usual speil on this, but I paused before doing so, and had a quick recap.

the end result is that I do not believe in magic being inherently good or bad, right or left. For me its all in the way that you use it. Electricity, for example, is very powerful and can be either very benign and helpful, or it can kill you. Essentially I think magic in all it's varied forms is very similar.

Even a positive spell used in a vengeful way can be harmful.
 
 
Ierne
12:34 / 22.01.02
In mental health to state that there is two sides or an equal distillation of both, confuses and harrasses the ill, by confining their options to one of three, all of which are impossible to maintain as a constant. – Will "it work"

Excuse me? I'm not really sure what the point is that you are trying to make there. Are you trying to say that mentally ill people cannot accept the concept of duality, and to believe in duality is a state of "mental health"???

 
 
Bear
12:38 / 22.01.02
Ierne you seem a bit angry recently - you ok?

The thing is with this topic nobody will ever have the exact opinion, which isn't really a bad thing...
 
 
Rev. Wright
13:05 / 22.01.02
quote: Excuse me? I'm not really sure what the point is that you are trying to make there. Are you trying to say that mentally ill people cannot accept the concept of duality, and to believe in duality is a state of "mental health"???



One cannot seperate mental health with the practice of magick and spiritual lore. One is constantly entering mind states that are perscribed to be 'ill' or 'defective'. Duality in the form of this discussion can be perceived as being rigid or constraint. Forcing mind states/personalities into categories, that are not the truth. I feel that this can be said of the 50/50 approach, it suggests that there is a uniform mix or solution taking place, a true neutral approach can never be achieved.
I suggest a dynamic that is more of a flux, and one that takes into account the active perception of others into this equation.

I don't think that 'well' individuals have the ability to perceive duality, in fact duality seems to become evident when under stress. 'I like this, I hate that', choices become signals of brain overload.

[ 22-01-2002: Message edited by: Will 'it work' Wright ]
 
 
Ierne
13:15 / 22.01.02
I asked for a clarification, because I did not understand your post. I added an emoticon because I didn't appreciate what your post seemed to say.

I can't really say you've clarified things, so let 's just leave it at that.

As for "before you blow a fuse may I suggest that you reduce your caffeine intake"... If you would post concisely and clearly, there wouldn't be any misunderstanding. You don't get extra points for snottiness, Will.

[ 22-01-2002: Message edited by: Ierne ]
 
 
Rev. Wright
13:43 / 22.01.02
one path, lit by lantern.
elements that make lantern may be diserned as good or bad, a mix
Lantern used to tread deftly across teh different terrain that path contains
Others see lantern and in turn add judgements to whether good or bad

Limiting classifications to duality has detrimental effect on those dubbed mentally ill. Reduces teh ability to understand

Third archetypal option also un attainable, one cannot say that at any point one is a perfect mix of both or totally neutral.

Point of view comes from own battle with insane and sane duality, have adopted un-sane approach to not be classed 'menatlly ill'. Un-sane approach removes all duality, even mixed/ third approach.


NB please note that said snotty post was edited almost immediately as I allowed myself not to engage on a subjective emotional level and respect to yourself.

[ 22-01-2002: Message edited by: Will 'it work' Wright ]

[ 22-01-2002: Message edited by: Will 'it work' Wright ]
 
 
Bear
13:45 / 22.01.02
Will are you really Crowley?
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
14:00 / 22.01.02
quote:ciarconn wroteThe budists do not repress their incstincts/animal/bad side. They assimilate it and let it dissapear, (as much as the good side) because both are made of our desires and commands

and

quote:May Tricks wrote:
ciarconn, those buddhists are truly cool. I happen to be one . Just one of my many hats. It is realy conducsive to integration and complete awareness. In the end though it is let go and so is the buddhist path itself. You have to love a religion that admits to being nothing in the first place!


Which leads to something that really isn't the thread rot it will first appear to be.

(upfront disclaimer - I'm not intending to pick on ciarconn or May's opinions or beliefs about Buddhism. They just happened to be the ones to bring it up)

The core tenets of Buddhism are wonderful and, to use a word I really dislike, 'enlightened'. The reality is just as human as any other beliefs.

The history of the indigenous people in and around the Kathmandu valley has a very interesting occurance: The missionary activities of the Tibetan Buddhists who imposed their religion over the original beliefs and deities of the Tamang people. Even going so far as to limiting and regulating how their folk beliefs could be practiced. The modern syncretization is a fusion between Buddhism, hinduism (migratory tribes), and the native beliefs.

I'm not saying this was on the scale of the Christian crusades, Inquisitions, etc. but it brings up what is actually pertinent to this thread:

which is that labelling someone(s) as good, bad, enlightened, illuminated, demonic, beyond dualities, etc. because of their association with a religious title or practice creates the false dualities that help create our illusions.

People are people and there are Buddhists who follow their teachings well as there are actually Christians who follow their teachings well (the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes are just as peaceful and wonderful as the Buddhists core teachings).

There are also people who don't follow them so well. Being a buddhist doesn't mean that you can't be an asshole or even do irresponsible and evil things in the same way that being a Satan worshipping Gwar fan doesn't mean that you can't be a good parent or a loving friend.
 
 
Rev. Wright
14:06 / 22.01.02
Come on Lothar, admit it now, you're really a Satan worshipping GWAR fan.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
14:08 / 22.01.02
!sataN pihsroW

 
 
Papess
14:11 / 22.01.02
Hey, I can be an asshole and a buddhist!
(Just a joke Lothar, no negativity toward you)

I will not engage in this anymore because it seems too hostile for my liking. This isn't the repectful discussion I expect from The Magick. I will post on more pleasent threads. I am firm in my mutable beliefs and I can't understand this line of arguement.

~May
 
 
Bear
14:17 / 22.01.02
Yup the Magick section seems to be getting more LHP these days
 
 
Ierne
14:45 / 22.01.02
Maybe "having it out again" wasn't such a hot idea...

Will: thanks for clarifying. I genuinely appreciate the effort, and I apologize for incorrect use of emoticon (I really should have used ).
 
 
cusm
15:08 / 22.01.02
*shrug*

When given a choice between a duality, I always choose "both." That doesn't mean I integrate them perfectly into an "elightened" state, either. Sometimes the dualities I adopt continue to compete with each other, and I like that. The entropy is cause for me to grow to overcome it.

Its all worked very well for me so far, if rather a strain at times to handle.
 
 
Rev. Jesse
15:48 / 22.01.02
What a depressing post...

I thought you chaos people could look beyound the ancient institutionalized dualities and devise your own models.

Why the hell are you talking only in terms of 2 or 3 paths? Why not 6 or 23 or 42?

2 or 3 paths make it easy to bend your mind around, but guiding your world in that manner can create tunnel vision.

-Rev. Jesse
 
 
Ierne
15:57 / 22.01.02
Rev. Jesse: Couldn't agree with you more. I find the whole thread depressing for that same reason.

To be fair, however, not everyone that posts here is interested in Chaos Magick.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
16:05 / 22.01.02
Or just find where all the paths intersect and then dive through the nexus of the crossroads to the other side.

Just make sure to bring your 'encounter suit' with you.
 
 
cusm
16:36 / 22.01.02
There is more than one kind of duality, guys. Any two (or three or more, but two is easiest to work with) things that can't occupy the same 'space' form a duality. Trying to rewrite them so that they do is all the fun for me. Its not just about light and dark. For me, its about smashing things together that don't get along normally, and then learning from the ways in which they can go together. That's where the chaos comes in
 
 
ciarconn
20:42 / 22.01.02
About Budism.
I recently got involved in a discussion in a comics message board (the authority) on the hipocricy of occidental culture and christianism

It got pretty hot

At the end, we managed to agree, that the problem is not with the religions (at least on hteir original form); the problem is with the institutions and the practicants. Islam is not a violent religion, it's the interpretation some of it's practicants have.

I was talking about the religion, about the teachings of buda Sidarta Gautama.

I think we agree


Peace
 
 
Lionheart
01:01 / 23.01.02
We are only talking about 2 paths in magick because there are only two paths in magick.

I mean, come on! Have you ever met a magician who knew any numbers greater than 2?

 
 
Tamayyurt
01:01 / 23.01.02
FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!

As a completely, totally, uncrippled (I use both my left and right hands thankyouverymuch) Chaos Magician I found this thread really funny.

You guys are a riot.
 
 
Rev. Wright
01:01 / 23.01.02
1, 2, 6
3 sir
3
(Monty Python and teh Holy Grail)

Its interesting to note your conclusions with regards religion. I find it demonstrates my theory.
The 'original' religion is used as a lantern to light path. (why one path, coz currently there is only one of you in this space/time)
It is teh perceptions and judgements of others made by the footsteps one takes with the lantern that creates judgements, Good/bad
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
15:20 / 23.01.02
Here's something I've always wondered. Where, exactly, would Shamanism fall on the left hand/right hand path deal? Wasn't it around long before the paths really seperated? Is it just acknowledged as being neither/both? On both paths going the other way? Walking in woods?
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
15:22 / 23.01.02
and I think you should all thank me for not pointing out the misquoted Monty Python line (5, not 6).

[ 23-01-2002: Message edited by: Johnny the Zen bastard ]
 
 
Ierne
15:39 / 23.01.02
Where, exactly, would Shamanism fall on the left hand/right hand path deal?

Lothar...one day we will meet, you and I...and we will drink Mezcal. Lots of it. And we will enter a different realm together. Perhaps at that point, we will look back on this and giggle.

Johnny: Since I've already been reviled for being the Nasty Mean Bitch of Barbelith's Magick Forum–and I'm finding it slightly tedious–let me direct you to Lothar's incredibly groovy article on shamanism. Hopefully that will answer any questions you have about the topic. If it doesn't, he should be writing part 2 and sending it to Tom soon (hint hint Mr. Tuppan!).

And thanks re: the Python reference. It would have been Mean and Nasty for me to point that out.

[ 23-01-2002: Message edited by: Ierne ]
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
15:51 / 23.01.02
Actually, my partner wrote part 2 and I submitted it along with part 1.

Tom's been sitting on it a long time. Maybe it'll hatch soon.

As for shamanism and the paths. The paths 'diverging' is a modern mental construct.

Most cultures split things simply into things that were beneficial to the well being of the tribe and things that were detrimental to the tribe. A pretty simple and practical duality as far as dualities go.

Modern anthropologists label 'shamans' as people who worked for the benefit of the tribe and label 'sorcerors' (sometimes using specific linguistic names like 'bokshi' or 'brujo') as people that either work against the tribe or just for pay. Like a mercenary.

It gets a bit more confusing when one tribe goes up against another tribe. One tribe's sorceror is the other tribe's shaman. I would focus more on the methodology. If the same methodology was used then they are effectively the same. If a different meth. was used then certain specifics could be studied but even then, they're still pretty much the same.

All sides are the same. All paths are the same.

Let's butter it all and have a good meal.

[ 23-01-2002: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
grant
16:36 / 23.01.02
MY Magic User is neutral evil!
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
17:09 / 23.01.02
LOL.

I also wanted to clarify the 'mercenary' statement in my above post so that the 'money' isn't the defining feature of the distinction.

Today there is quite a stigma against people making money off their spirituality. I think this is primarily due to a combination of the concept that money=greed=bad and that with the Christian practices of spirituality, most people don't 'pay' a priest. Donation plate is one thing but writing a check out after a sermon is another.

But there has ALWAYS been the need for exchanges of energy. Shaman's still needed to eat so the payment may have taken the form of livestock or valuable items or, as in the modern day, money.

There is nothing wrong with a fair exchange of energy: money for services, services for services, items for services, services for items, etc.

(minor thread rot rant: I find it interesting that people are more willing to pay a MD, a western psychologist, or even a martial arts instructor for their time and services yet they feel that 'spiritual' practitioners should give their time and services away even though those practitioners still need to pay bills, buy food, clothing, supplies for their practice, etc.)

The 'evil sorceror' type of mercenary was more the type that would accept money in exchange for doing harm to members of one's own tribe/village/etc.

The 'shaman' (by the anthropological def above) would only accept money/energy exchange for doing things that were beneficial to the tribe (i.e., healings, exorcisms, etc.).

[ 23-01-2002: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
Bear
17:10 / 23.01.02
I know most chaos people don't follow one path but I do think the 2 categories are still useful..

Here something someone posted in another world -

quote:The Path Direct.... as Spare put it... is to break away and make your own
path. This almost invariably ends up being a bit crooked.

Now personally I cannot even THINK straight... in any sense of the word.
However, most Right Hand Path types tend to classify me as Left Hand Path.
Which is their right, I suppose, but where has that left me?

However, the terminology is still useful. In the Vodun sense, I say that I
can 'work with both hands', because I work magic both aimed at the
community, and magic that breaks the taboos and codes of that community in
the name of personal power and freedom... which in the Tantric sense is
what the Left Hand Path is all about.

In this Tantric sense, Chaos magic is Left Handed, because its magic
(Aeonics) seeks to create change in society rather than maintain the status
quo. In THIS sense I work Left Handed magic, because I am an Anarchist.

However, many of those I work with do not consider themselves Left Handed,
including those of the Vodun/Ifa, or witchcraft


And this is what someone else said -

quote:Pete Carroll calls the 'Right Hand Path' the 'Path of
Wisdom' and is reflective of faith in the Universe.
He also says the 'Left Hand Path' the 'Path of Power'
and is reflective of faith in oneself. He then says the
paths meet in a way impossible to describe.

That word 'impossible' infurates me, because it is actually
quite simple to describe. How can one have faith in
oneself without faith in the Universe that was cool enough
to create you? How can you have faith in the Universe
without having faith that it knew what it was doing when it
made you? Is it not powerful to have wisdom? Is it not
wise to obtain power?

Okay, thats the theory. What about in practise? In
practise there are those that call themselves right hand
path because they hate themselves too much to have
faith in themselves. They don't really have faith in the
universe either. These people are a right pain, and are
always on the lookout for people to project their inner
hatred onto.

Then there are those who mistake the left hand path
for becoming obsessed with having power over other
people. Or becoming addicted to cursing everyone.
This is rare though, generally more common in lhp
hierarchical orders.

Mostly magicians how claim either path actually
practise both. All magic is about the transcendance
of duality, even if the desired result is dualistic.
Actually, I speculate that magical results must ground
themselves in duality, for if they try and stay purely
etheric, then they will stagnate and become religion.
Back in duality the results can be recycled into
something fresh...


Kinda saves me writing anything, but then I am ill - oh and Satan
 
 
Rev. Wright
17:52 / 23.01.02
Those who claim to be able to play a Neutral/neutral Ranger are complete and utter......

Oh Irene, do you think so badly of me? sorry


[ 23-01-2002: Message edited by: Will 'it work' Wright ]
 
  

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