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Ever been to a psychologist?

 
  

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Ganesh
22:40 / 15.11.05
I think the whole concept of 'depression' is a difficult one, not least because there's an increasing tendency (probably related to the good ol' fundamental attribution error, egged on by Big Pharma) for people to attribute their unhappiness to factors outwith their control ("chemical imbalance", etc.). Increasingly, we see unhappiness/dissatisfaction as something abnormal, pathological, illness, and look to doctors and psychologists to remove it. If I took every self-diagnosed depression at face value, I'd have to conclude that we were suffering a dysphoric pandemic.

If someone walks into my New Patient Clinic and lucidly describes the various symptoms listed in the ICD/DSM as characteristic of depression, and also appears convincingly flat, affectless, unable to smile/react, etc., then I'll cautiously advance a diagnosis of depressive episode, usually mild to moderate (severe is when they're actively psychotic, comatose, have stopped eating/drinking, etc.). I'll generally examine the context within which they present, asking myself whether the way they present is a reasonable or disproportionate reaction to their circumstances. Like all diagnoses, it's ultimately a judgement call. Like all diagnoses, it carries elements of social cachet and stigma, and one must be aware of this.

No one symptom marks out "clinical" depression from any other kind of melancholy. Thoughts of suicide occur commonly within people not thought to be depressed: I've momentarily considered it myself. I'm not sure it's especially helpful to try to subdivide low mood. What's important is what one plans to do about it.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
23:55 / 15.11.05
Thanks 'nesh, that is fascinating. Could you say a little more on this:

I'll generally examine the context within which they present, asking myself whether the way they present is a reasonable or disproportionate reaction to their circumstances.

eg how it might lead to different diagnoses. If you judge what they describe to be a proportionate reaction to circumstances, but these reactions are significantly affecting their functioning/tick a number of the ICD/DSM boxes, how does the classification/diagnosis process proceed?
 
 
alas
23:55 / 15.11.05
I'll generally examine the context within which they present, asking myself whether the way they present is a reasonable or disproportionate reaction to their circumstances. Like all diagnoses, it's ultimately a judgement call. Like all diagnoses, it carries elements of social cachet and stigma, and one must be aware of this.

This is very wise, Ganesh. (Not that I'm surprised--I have found your perspective very valuable on this board more times than I can count).

Personally, I have seen two different therapists, US. The first one tested me (MMPI), told me I apparently had "disproportionate," to use Ganesh's word, anxiety bordering on depression (I was in graduate school, writing my dissertation, adopting relatives from foster care, applying for jobs, and freaking out). She said I needed to be on anti-anxiety/anti-depressant drugs, probably Paxil. I resisted. I did not want to be on drugs. I did, however, about a year later, have an MD prescribe some Lorazepam so I could sleep while I went through the serious job search/interviewing process. (Lorezepam's pretty addictive so I didn't stay on it too long.)

Then I got a job, moved away, and about two months into the new job pretty much stopped eating and sleeping and couldn't seem to speak without wanting to either break down into tears or scream. I couldn't swallow. I gritted my teeth and made it through the work days, but nights were the worst. I was so tired and confused yet sleepless. So, I pulled a therapist out of a hat (well, the list of preferred providers for my US private health insurance), and saw her for about, ummm, 5 or 6 years? Usually once a week, sometimes less. We worked through lots of shit.

She, too, said right away that I needed Paxil. So I got on it. I'm still trying to get off. I think--crossfingers--that I may be able to kick the habit. I worked my way off it slowly and have had none for several weeks now. It's not technically "addictive" i'm told, but it is hard to stop using.

My conclusions: 1) I needed therapy to work through the history of mental illness in my family, my own experiences, and my responses to all of this, and

2) I also have needed to end therapy at times because I felt sometimes "trapped" in the diagnosis. Like once I accepted "I am depressed," at some level I became my illness, and only my illness. And sometimes my shrink seemed to need to keep me there.

3) The drugs seem to have helped, too, but god knows. I'm skeptical, but then again, I am in a better place now. But I have had a hard time getting off them, which bothers me. I am a bit paranoid: if life as we know it ends, I'll be the one with a caffiene headache from hell weeping her eyes out as I simultaneously withdraw from the antidepressants.

I'm actually just recently returned to therapy again; for me it is mostly about my family; I have found I value my therapist's insight into mental illness/ family dynamics in order to think through how to deal with various members of my family and their crises, which I tend to feel entangled with, empathetic to.

Assuming you don't just run out of money or move, how do you know when you're through with therapy?
 
 
Seth
00:11 / 16.11.05
I did two courses in NLP, which entailed working with masses of people as you have to learn the skills experientially. That also means that you do a lot of work on yourself, and have other trainees practice on you. It was a wonderful experience, bizarre and mind-altering, as well as sometimes seeming like an extension of Will Self's The Quantity Theory of Insanity. There was no analysis whatsoever (in fact you rarely get anything that's content based in NLP), just pure technique. Much more my cuppa.

I had some therapy with my wife a couple of years back in the lead up to our break-up. The practical, between session side of things was great... the analysis was painfully inept and nearly a deal-breaker. I was shocked at how cookie-cutter it was, how the therapist reached conclusions that she believed were self-evident but were totally at odds with the reality of the situation. It was like she had to score points off us.

In many ways I'm entirely the wrong sort of person for therapy. I'm bloody-minded, rebellious, tight-lipped and probably a good deal faster on my feet than most when it comes to this kind of thing. I hate the problem oriented approach. It feels like driving away from a car smash in reverse, in that it's slow and painstaking and you can't see the road because you're so focused on the mess you just barely survived. Chances are you'll hit something else before you've gone five metres. I like to find my own way and I resent people who aren't my friends offering guidance.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
00:14 / 16.11.05
Arising from grant's post, interested to read, on this page, which describes varying types of US 'therapist', that a MSW/social worker could involve practising as a therapist, seeing clients in what sounds like a counselling-type relationship but that may also involve work in the client's own environments.

Somewhat different to the UK, I think, in which Social Workers may work with the same people as counsellors, but in a slightly different way ot the kinds of professionals talked about here, in that the focus is broader than mental/emotional health issues, and you're unlikely to find a social worker practising as a therapist. Also, less likely to be specifically be about talking/medication, so much as to be about all aspects of a client's life/circs?

Not sure if that's accurate? Do we have any UK social workers here?
 
 
grant
02:52 / 16.11.05
Well, in practice (so far), the MSW therapist thing from where I sit *seems* to be a little more results-oriented in the sense of navigating the state system -- like, assessing kids to see if they need to be placed in foster care/if the foster care placement is working out/why this foster care kid might be acting out. (Substitute other state programs for foster care when dealing with adults, senior citizens, etc.)

This may be more a reflection of my MSW's prior experience with the state system. It's what she knows. I do know that some MSWs are marriage counselors, and to get supervision hours for licensure (the next level up in the U.S. is LCSW, Licensed Clinical Social Worker, if you want to do some more looking around) my MSW* has been seeing a Jungian therapist, who I think sounds pretty cool, and I'm pretty sure is an LCSW.

* Married Single Woman, natch.
 
 
hachiman
06:42 / 16.11.05
I have a problem with clinical depression, and with dealing with rage issues. Started seeing a counsellor at uni in 2001, had anervous breakdown at the end of 2001, which forced the counsellor to involve my parents, due to university regs. Started seeing proper shrink & psychologist, was medicated extensively, and started on rebuilding my life.
But, June of 2002 my psychologist, a dear old man who helped more than i can say, died of a stroke, and that precipitated a second breakdown which lasted 4 months. I was utterly out of my mind for those 4 months, remember waking up end of September and not being able to remember a single thing about the last 4 months. For someone like me with an eidetic memory, that was scary. Had hazy memories of things that apparently never happened, couldnt tell the difference between awake and asleep.
Started therapy again end of 2002 this time with afemale psych, more meds, and continued till end of last year, when i moved out of my parents place. Since my folks and i arent talking i am dependent on South Africa's public hospital system for the necessary meds, which has been problematic. Also no therapy, been entered on a list and they may be able to get me someone next year january.
Apparently my depression problems are endogenous, means that its passed down my family tree, colour me surprised.
I found therapy extremely beneficial and necessary, it helped me deal with a lot of stuff, and now that i now longer have that rsource i can see how dependent i became on it. I got a lot of help from both my Psychiatrist and my Psychologists, thjough in retrospect i can see i was an extremely difficult and obstinate patient. I was violent moody, bitter and suicidal, but i managed to deal with a lot of it from theabove nad the amazing support group of friends i have.

(Wow, that was a heck of a monologue, somebody set that to violins )
 
 
Jub
07:23 / 16.11.05
grant - What's Brief Response Therapy. The only google I found was from you in an NLP thread a few months back. Has it got anther name?
 
 
Ganesh
11:13 / 16.11.05
eg how it might lead to different diagnoses. If you judge what they describe to be a proportionate reaction to circumstances, but these reactions are significantly affecting their functioning/tick a number of the ICD/DSM boxes, how does the classification/diagnosis process proceed?

Well, it's not really a case of box-ticking; it's as much about how someone says something as what they say. The main question I'm asking myself is why has this person presented in this way at this point in his/her life? and that breaks down into an examination of the individual, the situation and the medical pathway. I'm looking for what's changed, either as a precipitant or consequence of the lowered mood.

So... it's difficult for me to pare things down to a mental flowchart. I guess if someone's describing a number of the cluster symptoms of depression in the context of proportionate life events, say (a couple of months into bereavement, for example), then I'd suggest that they were in the process of adjusting to those life events. There may or may not be a role for the mental health services; often, pathologising an essentially normal response to loss/catastrophe can be unhelpful, or even detrimental to the process of adjustment. It's possible, however, to offer symptomatic help/support (assistance normalising a sleep pattern, say) without the need to produce an illness diagnosis per se.

At some point, obviously, appropriate unhappiness/grieving shades into abnormality, and it's here, particularly, that subjective judgement plays a large part.
 
 
grant
11:25 / 16.11.05
I think it's the same thing as "Rapid Response Therapy." (this is a pdf).

I'm not sure why the only result that shows up for "brief response therapy" is me. I might have fudged the name, but I don't think so -- I remember talking to a counselor from North Carolina about it. On the other hand, does Google lie? No, Google does not lie.
 
 
Ninjas make great pets
11:46 / 16.11.05
Hi Matt.

Can't offer the wonder of an informed and well written replies like the rest!
Just a thought of my own.

I went to a few therapists over the years. Never for long though. I just couldn't say things. It did feel good to talk to someone but soon as able to stand I ran out the door.

It's so strange. years of trying to release anger over something I never understood. gone. In one simple sentence, in passing, by a relative. a piece of the puzzle I never knew. Man I could have saved a small fortune over that.

At the same time dealing with panic attacks that got worse and worse and worse. Turns out it was the one person I thought was my support causing it to be worse! He went and suddenly the therapy was effective. (even he didn't know he was doing it!)

I know it's a really plebby thing to say but it seems if the cause is still there, and your like me about holding out on stuff, then no matter how much money you throw at it it'll keep going.

kinda like putting out a fire from the north and someone/something is still adding wood on the south.

I just hope you get a 'one word' moment someday soon . Best of luck Matt!
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
13:43 / 16.11.05
Thanks 'nesh, that's really interesting.
 
 
elene
13:48 / 16.11.05
I visited a psychiatrist once and psychologist about twenty times in '99/2000, and now I'm seeing a psychiatrist again. I'd approached my GP asking how I could manage transition (from male to female), and she sent me to the first psychiatrist who made me do some written tests and then sent me to see the psychologist to suss me out. The psychologist was friendly and had me talk about whatever. He told me right away though that he could make no diagnosis that would help me transitioning. That's a matter for experts here in Germany.

I spent ages talking about things that had always greatly upset me when thinking about my childhood. Violence mostly. I went round and round on this point for a long time. As I'd already done for years, if the truth be known. I mentioned other things but they didn't seem to impress me and they didn't seem to impress him either. I did start to feel better though. I think I'd bored myself better. I also started getting my beard removed, stopped drinking and started trying to stop smoking, started saving money and generally planning a route for myself.

I asked him what he thought and he said I'd been depressed in some manner (for want of a better description) when I'd first come to see him and that did seem to have improved, and that, as he had said, he could say nothing about the transsexualism. I said, yes I felt a lot better and we left it.

Then over the following year - or two, this took ages - a load of stuff came back to me, not memories but the feelings that belonged to memories I never thought about. Some really sad things. And then I really did start to make progress. I guess one makes a big deal of stuff one can handle rather than trying to face stuff one can't, sometimes. Really, all I could do about these events was cry.

I've only really been able to move on since my Dad died though. Or so it seems to me. Anyway, this time I'm seeing the expert on all things transsexual. She's very nice. Several ravens hang out on her lawn - which seems to fit.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
15:40 / 16.11.05
Until three years ago, I had a habit of seeing counsellors every so often when things got to crisis point. usually to do with relationship stuff or crazy money stuff -- for one or two sessions. I never let any of them get to know me. I always felt that I could diagnose myself much better than any shrink, and until I was about 21 I found it impossible to tell anyone what was going on inside my head -- let alone a 'stranger'. It didn't occur to me that becoming functional, less depressed etc might involve trusting someone enough to let them become a friend, or at least not-strange. Which sort of explains the problem.

The first proper psychologist I ever saw was a 'queer-friendly' one in 1999. At the first session I explained how my girlfriend and I seemed unable to spend time apart; that I'd get teary and depressed whenever I was alone; that I was feeling insecure and jealous of her friends and her life, and it was destroying our relationship. This was back when I id'd as a woman. The shrink smiled and said that women often have special, deep, intuitive bonds, that lesbian partnerships are lovely because they're so intense. Then I twigged -- oh, she's a lesbian separatist shrink! Better not tell her about the intense BDSM play and the gender role confusions then! So I didn't go back.

Similar to Ellen above, I've been transitioning for the last three years and so have ended up in at least three shrink's offices. My doctor, angel that he is, gave me the name of a counselling service as well as referring me to psychiatrists for proper psychiatric assesment of Gender Identity Disorder, etc. I wound up seeing a counsellor regularly. She's a Gestalt therapist, the details of which I've never been clear on but seem to work. I am also pretty lucky: she has a scholarship system for low-income people, and I pay ridiculously little for each session.

Anyhow, she's really, really lovely. She helped me through a lot of figuring out what I needed to do about gender identity stuff, and then we worked on the other issues that made it difficult for me to function, family background stuff, depression, dissociative tendencies, learning how to be honest and assertive, etc. I stopped going for a while early on, but ended up in a really bad place -- screaming fits followed by catatonia, some pretty full-on violent episodes, self-harm etc. So I started counselling again, and began really sorting shit out. It's pretty scary. I feel like I'm just beginning to deal with the really deep stuff.

In the meantime I've seen two psychiatrists who were supposed to assess me for gender reassignment surgery. One was probably okay. The other, who I had to see every 3 months for a year, began by telling me that my life would be much more difficult post-transition. She dismissed almost every factor I presented as evidence of a support network: she said it was likely my partner would leave me; claimed the 'queer' community hates trannies, and so on. She spent most of our other sessions talking about the problems with a court case the gender clinic was embroiled in, trying to persuade me I should speak out for the clinic publicly as an activist. I didn't: in fact, I was openly critical of the way she was handling my case in emails, which she somehow got hold of through a couple of transpeople obviously recruited as spies. (I know this sounds paranoid, but it is quite true.) She first threatened me with expulsion from the clinic if I didn't shut up, and then, when I didn't shut up, told me to leave and not come back. By the end I was glad, because each appointment made me so anxious that I'd be unable to sleep for three days beforehand, and for a week afterwards I'd feel totally shattered and despairing.

The moral of the story: I think therapy experiences are completely subjective. It depends, to a large extent, on what you're there for and what you want to get out of the therapy. I think it must be really difficult for psychiatrists because so often they're there to diagnose something, which is often completely different from offering someone the tools to become more functional.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
15:41 / 16.11.05
And sorry that was so long! My, I can talk.
 
 
Ganesh
19:05 / 16.11.05
She spent most of our other sessions talking about the problems with a court case the gender clinic was embroiled in, trying to persuade me I should speak out for the clinic publicly as an activist. I didn't: in fact, I was openly critical of the way she was handling my case in emails, which she somehow got hold of through a couple of transpeople obviously recruited as spies. (I know this sounds paranoid, but it is quite true.)

Fucking hell.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
23:49 / 16.11.05
The heatedness of my responses in the transsexualism thread begins to make sense, no?
 
 
matthew.
01:27 / 17.11.05
I must say thank you to everybody who replied to this thread. I didn't expect such a turnout

Ganesh, I have a question. What are your thoughts on the commodifying of psychology/psychiatry? At my uni, Intro to Psych is without question the most popular course. According to one of my psych profs, this is a phenomenon across Canada (my country) and probably the US. It's becoming cool to be into psychology. It's become something to be into, like being into serial killers, or Boggle. Do you think this is a negative for psychology/psychiatry? Or is it just something that happens?

Because my knowledge of psychology is rudimentary (I've taken a total of five courses, one being Psycholinguistics, another being Clinical Psychology), I don't profess to know a lot. In my humble opinion then, I don't think this commodifying of the practice is a good thing. It's not a product that one can buy and return if unhappy with the results.

One of my co-workers was having some problems dealing with the death of her grandfather, and she went to a clinical psychologist (I'm not sure what kind). The therapist wanted her to deal with some issues regarding obsessive behaviour; it appears that she latches onto an idea and then pursues this to a very messy end, eg boyfriends, enemies, etc. This co-worker of mine was so upset at the "accusation" (her words) of obsession that she immediately "fired" (again, her words) him. She was more than happy to air her grievances with him at work while people shuffled their feet uncomfortably and stared at the ground. I don't pretend to psychoanalyze her, but it seemed to me that she was disatisfied with a product, with a commodity. She felt the therapist was defective, was a "quack" (again, her words). Of course, with this person, it's always someone else's fault, but that's another story.
(By the way, the word "denial" came up in therapy and she disregarded. So when she spoke often of these sessions at work, and mentioned this word with disdain, I almost laughed at the irony. Denial of denial. Yeesh.)
 
 
Ganesh
06:33 / 17.11.05
The heatedness of my responses in the transsexualism thread begins to make sense, no?

Up to a point. We're arguing general principles and differing healthcare systems in the trans thread, though, Disco, rather than specific (grossly unprofessional) individuals - so, although what you've described here helps me understand why your responses are emotionally heated, it doesn't particularly help me "make sense" of your arguments themselves on an intellectual level.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
10:04 / 17.11.05
No, but in other ways I feel that the system this unprofessional psychiatist is working with actually enables her to be more unprofessional, because the amount of power she has over people is pretty phenomenal. Partially, though, it's a local problem. Her institution has a monopoly.
 
 
Ganesh
11:26 / 17.11.05
And, as I've said elsewhere, anything other than simply supplying medication on demand would necessitate some gatekeeping power on the part of the psychiatrist...
 
 
Ganesh
11:28 / 17.11.05
Can't you get a second opinion? If not, then yes, I'd agree that there are systemic problems, at least on the local level.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
13:27 / 17.11.05
The second opinion I have, from the okay shrink, who is also affiliated with the gender clinic, is that my case is slightly atypical anyhow, that I "shot myself in the foot" (he literally said this) by refusing to co-operate, and he's unwilling to go out on a limb for me. My GP has been great but doesn't know any more shrinks to send me to. Sticky situation -- the only solution seems to be to go interstate. I think I've just found the right surgeon, too, which makes it all more urgent. We'll see....
 
 
Ganesh
13:47 / 17.11.05
Certainly problematic if you've only got the two.
 
 
Ganesh
13:56 / 17.11.05
Ganesh, I have a question. What are your thoughts on the commodifying of psychology/psychiatry? At my uni, Intro to Psych is without question the most popular course. According to one of my psych profs, this is a phenomenon across Canada (my country) and probably the US. It's becoming cool to be into psychology. It's become something to be into, like being into serial killers, or Boggle. Do you think this is a negative for psychology/psychiatry? Or is it just something that happens?

I think it can become a negative, in the sense that there's a common tendency to a) self-diagnose, and b) generalise from one's particular experiences, and a smattering of psychological/psychiatric theory can exacerbate this. Most medical students go through a period of thinking they have this or that disorder they've been reading about, and it's not until one starts to encounter living, breathing ill people in the flesh that one can begin to put one's learning into perspective. There's a gulf between theory and practical reality, and I'm a little concerned that the current vogue for popular 'armchair' psychology glosses over the latter.
 
 
matthew.
03:16 / 18.11.05
there's a common tendency to a) self-diagnose

That's the second time (I think) you've mentioned self-diagnosis, which makes me curious. In terms of psychological (and I guess, physical) well-being and health, is this truly a danger? Can self-diagnosis be harmful? Or is just one of many assumptions people make about the world, about themselves?

1) When you, Ganesh, see patients, do they often come in with predetermined notions about the diagnosis you're going to give them? And
2) What's the ratio between a patient's correct self-diagnosis and your own? And
3) What is the general reaction when your diagnosis is incongruous with their self-diagnosis?

Sorry if I'm hitting you up like this, Ganesh, but if I wanted to ask my own therapist these question, I'd have to pay
 
 
Ganesh
13:04 / 21.11.05
I first mentioned self-diagnosis, Matt, because your original post was suggestive of it ("I realised that I was clinically depressed"), although you've subsequently clarified this. I mentioned it a second time in the context of people with a smattering of psychological knowledge - but no experience - being more like to diagnose themselves with psychological disorders.

I don't think self-diagnosis is a danger, particularly, unless one misses Disease X because one has convinced oneself the symptoms are explicable in terms of Disease Y. Most of the time, it's just annoying. My most overwhelming experience of this was when I ran a weekly psychiatric clinic as part of a student health service. Referrals were typically physically healthy young adults living away from home for the first time and facing the stress of having peers of equal or greater ability than themselves - having to work to pass exams, etc. Generally speaking, they were better read and more introspective than the average man in the street. Quite a few of them were studying Psychology.

I'd say that somewhere between half and three quarters of them came in convinced they had a mood disorder - either depression ("because I feel really unhappy") or manic-depression ("because I felt really unhappy yesterday but I feel happy today") - but didn't. As a rule, they were somewhat fixed on the idea of diagnosis (wanting an illness label) and tended to push for pharmacological treatment, although this was rarely indicated. Not infrequently, we'd spend considerable time arguing the toss over whether someone's unhappiness was the result of disordered brain chemistry ("neurochemical imbalance" was a favourite phrase - theirs, not mine) or the stress of having to do one's own washing.

A similar dynamic is found in the private sector; I suspect that people who can afford to pay for medical treatment generally feel entitled to the diagnosis and treatment of their choice. In my own experience, where differences exist, it's almost always situationally stressed but psychologically quite healthy individuals wanting to be diagnosed with mood disorders, chronic fatigue or hyperactivity, possibly because a) these are re-e-easonably free of societal stigma, and b) often afford one access to the benefits of the sick role, without much by way of invasive investigation. Refuting self-diagnoses not infrequently leads to resentment, non-attendance and occasional emotional blackmail of the "I'll kill myself then your career will be over" variety. The same goes on in NHS work, of course, but to a lesser extent, I think - one reason I'm extremely dubious of private medicine.

Where so much emphasis is placed on diagnosis, I think people are failing to grasp the nature of psychiatric disease entities. They're not exact categories but approximations, symptom clusters. The more important issue is what's going to help.

Hope that answers your questions, Matt. Don't you wish your psychologist wuz hott like me?
 
  

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