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A testing question

 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:06 / 09.11.05
This is a question that I want people to respond to only within certain criteria.

The response should be logical, putting any emotion aside to examine later or if mentioned in thread only in recognition of the interference with logic. I would like everyone who responds to assume that the person involved has no close family or friends and has not developed any physical side effects to their primary dementia.

So then the question: why can you test drugs on animals, when you can't test them on advanced alzheimers patients?
 
 
Cat Chant
11:52 / 09.11.05
You can't.
 
 
Char Aina
11:58 / 09.11.05
if such tests were to become public, the outcry would likely be sufficient to end the profitability of the company performing them
the tests therefore would run counter to their own purpose; to engineer a more profitable product.

this risk of public knowledge of the tests might be a small one, but the stakes involved in such a gamble would be so high as to make the game unplayable by those who are required to answer to shareholders.

if the tests could be kept secret, or public opinion changed (for example to see these old people not as people but as previously people), then perhaps testing drugs on the elderly would become a more logical option.
 
 
Cat Chant
12:10 / 09.11.05
Well, one reason would be that depending on what the drugs were for, I imagine advanced Alzheimer's patients would show very screwy results, but of course that goes for animal experimentation, too. I'd need to know more about the scientific rationale for testing drugs on creatures other than those for whom they're intended, and the practical problems it raises, before I could get at that dimension of the question.

But more importantly, I think, what's at stake in your question is a decision on the limits of the human. You're not comparing animal testing to testing on all humans, only those whose brain function is impaired in a very specific way and to a specified degree. Which draws an implicit parallel between animals and humans with advanced Alzheimer's, and suggests that the reason animal testing is acceptable is because animals have a lower level of cognitive function than (most) humans, and that humans with advanced Alzheimer's have a similar level of cognitive function to 'animals'.

Our society has, on the whole, decided that experiments on animals are acceptable and experiments on humans are not. So experimenting on a human with advanced Alzheimer's would be tantamount to declaring that person less than human, and thus to bringing into being a state of affairs where 'the human' is equated with 'members of the species homo sapiens* whose cognitive function is above a certain level' - and, potentially, where the humanity of any individual is capable of being judged and decided-on by some body (in this case, presumably a doctor who would be able to say that the patient's Alzheimer's was sufficiently 'advanced'). Agamben talks about medical experimentation on humans (willing volunteers, criminals, and concentration camp inmates) and its biopolitical and ethical implications a lot (in both Homo Sacer and Remnants of Auschwitz,I think) but I'd have to look it up unless someone else can remind me what he says.

I myself don't think that there are any grounds on which you can securely distinguish ethically between testing on animals and testing on humans. I mean that, as this example shows, you can't justify it in terms of level of cognition, or whatever: the only basis you can have is some sort of innate superiority of humans over animals, and I don't think that's ethically tenable. Which is why I say, given your parameters, "you can't" test drugs on animals but not on advanced Alzheimer's patients: there is no logical/ethical basis for that distinction.

*or pan bimanus, of course.
 
 
Cat Chant
12:12 / 09.11.05
if the tests could be kept secret

I think that if the methodology and results of the tests were not published (the 'peer review' and 'repeatability' criteria for scientific knowlege come in here) the drugs would never be licensed for use, so that's a moot point.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:32 / 09.11.05
humans with advanced Alzheimer's have a similar level of cognitive function to 'animals'

Actually I chose advanced Alzheimer's patients because I've spent time in very close quarters with one and I can say in all honesty that all of the animals I've known had a better understanding of what was going on around them and a better conception of any pain that they felt then she did. Primarily though you're making an assumption about the question that is not inherent. There is no emotional value judgement in place, it's a simple philosophical question of logic and it's easier for people to get over the hurdle of humanity when the difference that they can perceive between human and animal is lowered.

Our society has, on the whole, decided that experiments on animals are acceptable and experiments on humans are not

Why do you think that is?
 
 
Cat Chant
13:20 / 09.11.05
all of the animals I've known had a better understanding of what was going on around them and a better conception of any pain that they felt then she did

Really? All animals? Slugs? Greenfly? Animals with degenerative neurological conditions like Alzheimer's? How do you know? As framed, you're comparing all animal life-forms on this planet, in all states of health, to a tiny sub-population of humans with one particular disease (and one particular degree of severity).* I can't see any justification for that, unless you're actually comparing level of cognitive function (which, as I understand it, anyway, is pretty much synonymous with 'understanding of what was going on and conception of pain').

[me]Our society has, on the whole, decided that experiments on animals are acceptable and experiments on humans are not

[Nina] Why do you think that is?


Because we live in a deeply anthropocentric/speciesist society.

*In fact, your gloss (I've spent time in very close quarters with one) suggests that you're comparing all animals in all states of health to one human.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:43 / 09.11.05
No I'm comparing animals that we test drugs on to people with advanced alzheimers. This isn't a comment on society, there is no cultural element to it, this is a philosophical logic experiment and I never claimed it was anything else. You're assuming that there's more than the question here.

Why is that? This was meant to be sheer simplicity. You're rotting it and in addition every answer that was meant to and could have attracted people who don't generally post in HS has been given. In one post. By you. And I am incredibly angry with you for it. Years of fucking posting here and I've been a moderator for a long time but so assured of yourself that you couldn't see a simple motivation behind a simple thread?

As of ten minutes ago I am no longer a Head Shop moderator. This is meant to be a forum for thought but all I ever fucking see is assumption.
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:47 / 09.11.05
The response should be logical, putting any emotion aside to examine later or if mentioned in thread only in recognition of the interference with logic.

Sorry, Nina, but this is bizarre and I'm calling bullshit on it. You can't separate out emotions like this, as if they "interfere" with "logic", when in fact they make the ethical question comprehensible.
 
 
Sax
13:53 / 09.11.05
Unsure if this thread is still going or has gone up the cacker, but I'm finding the central question interesting. If we are indeed accepting that animals and advanced alzheimer's sufferers are comparable, and as already noted that medical experimentation is "acceptable" on animals but not humans in our society, where does this de-humanisation of people suffering from illnesses/conditions which lower the cognitive level significantly go from there? Coma victims? Illnesses such as Spina Bifida? I've met at least one Down's Syndrome child who wouldn't be able to chase after a stick in the park, so would therefore be not quite as good as my mum's dog. It's would presumably be a dangerous road to go down from that point of view.
 
 
Cat Chant
14:25 / 09.11.05
Offtopic:

Nina, I don't know what you're talking about and I need to go away and calm down before I respond.

I'd be happy for a moderator to delete my posts if it's agreed that they're rotting, but I'd be grateful if you'd PM me the contents as I didn't save them and I was quite interested in this thread topic.

Please don't delete Nina's posts, as I would like to think about them later.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:44 / 09.11.05
I'm feeling a little sheepish since my last post came off as much more aggressive than I intended and I posted it before I read Nina's post which makes it look even worse. Sorry, Nina. Anyway, I think it is a great shame that Nina is no longer a headshop mod and I hope she decides to come back.

Having said that, I would be very much opposed to having Deva's posts removed. My general rule of thumb is that you shouldn't delete someone just from having a different take and set of assumptions (even though these may not be what the threadstarter wants), as long as that person is making a good faith attempt at discussion.
 
 
Malarki
17:13 / 09.11.05
My understanding is that testing on animals is of use only in so far as animals have similiarities on their genetic/biological/physiological make up to humans. As such, it is logical that testing should be carried out on humans rather than animals.

The problem is the emotional element for many humans. However, from an altruistic point of view, it would make sense for people to put themselves forward as test candidates, or to maybe use people who have been sentenced to very long, perhaps without a chance of parole/release, sentences - it could be a way of attoning for crimes against humanity, genicide, etc.. In a more altruistic society maybe people would volunteer? Or people could have undertakings that say that if/when they get full blown Alzheimers or some vegetative condition that their bodies should be used for such tests. This would probably also curb some of the more excessive (unnecessary?) practices that currently take place in animal experimentation.

I feel I must declare an interest, as a paid-up vegetarian anti-vivisectionist.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
19:02 / 09.11.05
Nina,

Logically there is a difference between testing on a patient who has advanced Alzhiemers and Animal who can suffer pain. The difference is that the Animal suffers.

The key to the argument is not the absurd humanism that assumes that any abstract 'human' entity has greater value than any 'non-human entity' but on the simple side of the argument - the amount of pain and terror that is being inflicted by the experimenter.

Purpose and intent is irrelevant.

The more complex side of the argument has two elements - which resolve to: a) can a decent human society be thought to exist which is founded on the deliberate inflicting of pain. b) can a decent human society exist which believes that it can justify terrible behavior against non-humans...

later... (difference...!)
 
 
sdv (non-human)
19:06 / 09.11.05
Nina

George the cat was always more 'humane' and intelligent than most humans - and this thread has proved this wonderful fact yet again...
 
 
Cat Chant
19:17 / 09.11.05
... I am incredibly angry with you for it.... As of ten minutes ago I am no longer a Head Shop moderator...

Having gone away for a few hours and reread the thread, I still don't understand what you think I did wrong. To the best of my ability, I responded to your question in the terms you requested, as far as I understood them, and I genuinely don't understand why you think my responses deserved this level of anger and aggressiveness.

The implication that this kind of behaviour is so unacceptable that (as you say in the Policy thread) you can no longer even bear to look at the Headshop is hugely upsetting and frankly not a little scary to me. From my point of view, I saw an interesting thread in a forum I frequent and I responded to it as best I could. I am really, really upset and scared at the thought that when I think I'm doing what Barbelith is for, other people think I'm behaving so badly they might as well give up on a whole forum. In fact, it might be useful for you to know that this is the single most hurtful thing that has happened to me in my five or six years here.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:56 / 09.11.05
Oh-kay.

I don't want anyone to delete anything here, at least not yet, but is it worth locking it for a day or something? Only I'm not really sure what's going on either, and it doesn't look like it's massively amenable to discutation at present...
 
 
astrojax69
22:44 / 09.11.05
to try to bring this thread back to an investigation on its central thesis for discussion (being the operative word..?), we might like to consider exactly what animals 'think'.

for a start, temple grandin has suggested - from a unique perspective - that animals are similar to autists. and of course, there is much to suggest that some stages of alzheimers are also very similar to autism.

something to consider, anyhoo...


to answer the premise posed, i personally can't think of why there should be a distinction between animal and human testing - we are animals, after all: to press the logic.

[...not that i am volunteering willy-nilly to be a subject!]

somewhere above suggested that the results would be 'screwy' (i think was the terminolgy) and of course, a number of 'healthy' animals is more likely to produce quantifiable results than a number of differing health alzheimer sufferers, if you could procure them. this iks one reason why the testing procedure may be compromised, though if the drugs were to alleviate or cure alzheimers, then there should be no reason why the drugs can't be tested.

(the reason they aren't is predominantly emotive, premised on the sanctity of human life and the presumption of human dignity, especially when this is entrusted to carers for those who are unable to make the decisions for themselves.)
 
 
Evil Scientist
09:15 / 10.11.05
This is a question that I want people to respond to only within certain criteria.

The response should be logical, putting any emotion aside to examine later or if mentioned in thread only in recognition of the interference with logic. I would like everyone who responds to assume that the person involved has no close family or friends and has not developed any physical side effects to their primary dementia.

So then the question: why can you test drugs on animals, when you can't test them on advanced alzheimers patients?


Comparison of animal to a human injured or debilitated to the point of being in a vegetable state is not an accuarate comparisson IMO. The vegetative human is not operating at it's normal level of conciousness due to damage. The healthy animal is already at it's peak level of conciousness.

There still exists a chance, no matter how slim, that the human may recover to normal levels of conciousness. Those levels are far greater (by current tested standards) than those displayed by other forms of life on the planet at their baseline.

On the question of accurate physiological data. You would really only get helpful data if you were testing drugs which were to be then used on elderly people. The resistance of an eighty-year old Alzheimers victim to drugs are far lower than those of a healthy human. Surprising as it may seem, you would get more accurate data from a healthy animal as to toxicity, side-effects, etc.

A coma patient who is, by doctor's opinion, irreparably brain damaged and requires machines to maintain life is again not a suitable subject for most drug trials. If the drug damages an organ already beyond repair, or affects one currently being forcably sustained by life support then there is less of a chance of it being spotted.

An important question to ask is, are there enough vegetative state humans in the world who either have relations who will give consent for trials to take place or have no relations (and therefore control presumably deferring to the state) to provide a suitable test bed for the numerous drug trials taking place around the world?

Perhaps this kind of thing could be linked into the doner card system. But personally I would rather my organs go to help actual people rather than line the pockets of a drug company.

(I will point out, for those who don't know from various Animal Rights threads here and over in Lab, that I do consider human life far more important than animal life. So of course my view is somewhat biased that way).
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:29 / 10.11.05
I've apologised to Deva via PM. I think I was misdirecting a lot of frustration with this forum at her and it wasn't fair.

This thread was started as a logical, philosophical experiment. The terms were introduced as premises, the answer was obvious on purpose. It is clear to me that I can't actually place a pure philosophy thread in this forum and I'm not going to try again.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
15:52 / 10.11.05
Humanism... sigh such a complete pain... What seems extremely strange about humanists is how they always justifying notions that depend on false beliefs in 'human supremacy', 'species' and 'race' - as if these spurious and justifible concepts can justify commiting acts of terror on non-humans and of course humans.

Consider this: "...Really? All animals? Slugs? Greenfly? Animals with degenerative neurological conditions like Alzheimer's? How do you know?..."

The argument raised against N presumes 'species supremacy' - which is to say that to be a 'human' is to regard themselves as something distinct and special. It's ultimately a fascism, based on the phantasy that there can exist a species called humanity with the presumption of some collective identity.
 
 
angel
19:59 / 10.11.05
(GGM here - I'm not up for deleting anything here either, don't see the rot or the problem with the topicality of posts that have thus far been posted, but agree that some breathing/stepping back might be a plan.)
 
 
sdv (non-human)
14:03 / 11.11.05
A comment to moderators - precisely why are 'moderators' being so presumptive here ? A presumptiveness that is demostrating something way beyond the normal inability to think in public, or address what are profound philosophical issues. The refusal to investigate the profound truth underlying the question asked is significant, but not surprising... But then isn't this why it's called 'head-shop' (the home of drug assisted idiocy) rather than 'Thought' or 'Philos...'

To everyone else - notice the lack of reference to 'the death of man' ... to misquote Foucault - after 'the death of god' the 'death of man' was inevitable.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:42 / 11.11.05
This really belongs in the Policy, but what are you refering to as presumptive, sdv?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:06 / 11.11.05
Well, it sounds as if sdv is congratulating the moderators on their well-thought-out positions. So, you know, thanks for that. It's nice to be appreciated.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
18:37 / 15.11.05
No Haus - why should this exercise in power and normative thinking be congratulated ?
 
 
sdv (non-human)
18:46 / 15.11.05
Peter - at least one important element of philosophical discourse is the consideration and interrogation of concepts. Even sometimes the invention of new ones. The explicit ignoring of the subtext of 'logic' suggested that the limitations of the technical form are greater than we might have imagined. This thread might have been an interesting exercise in considering precisely why this seems to be impossible here, which is precisely a topic for philosophy and not one for policy. But what happended instead was the rapid and immediate closure of any possibility of concepts being unpacked, considered and new differences being established.

What fascinates me about this is why the attempt at producing new concepts is seemingly impossible on this type of forum. It's as if the banality of the everyday infects the place...
 
 
Lurid Archive
20:01 / 15.11.05
sdv, I'm finding you extremely hard to decipher. If you could spell things out for me, I'd much appreciate that. In particular,

why should this exercise in power and normative thinking be congratulated ?

What power has been exercised? By whom and to what ends? The moderators, presumably. But what do you mean here by "normative thinking"? Are you saying that particular values or opinions are shared by the Headshop mods and being imposed on others? What are these?

The explicit ignoring of the subtext of 'logic' suggested that the limitations of the technical form are greater than we might have imagined.

Again, I am totally baffled. The "subtext of 'logic'"? Does this refer to the explicit reference to logic by Nina, and responded to (curtly) by me? You can't mean this, of course, since if someone responds directly to a specific point you can hardly call it ignoring the subtext. The second half of the sentence is equally opaque to me. I have no idea what limitations you have imagined for this medium.

This thread might have been an interesting exercise in considering precisely why this seems to be impossible here, which is precisely a topic for philosophy and not one for policy.

I believe Petey was responding to your apparent (though I can hardly be sure) claim that the Headshop mods have acted as some kind of stoner borg collective to shut down legitimate discussion. Much as that is an image I can enjoy, it would also constitute a serious charge against the moderators and run against one of the principles by which we discuss things here - hence a policy issue. Myself, I didn't for a moment think you were serious (and still don't, really) so hardly expected it to go to the policy. But if you think that debate has been shut down by bullying and/or overbearing use of moderator powers, then the proper place to air those concerns and get something done about them is in the policy. You can really get things done there to change Barbleith for the better, as long as you can convince others of your point of view.

Otherwise I'd have to say that your points, elliptic as they may be, are tending to the dismissive of us other posters. Thats usually not a good thing, dude.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:23 / 15.11.05
No Haus - why should this exercise in power and normative thinking be congratulated ?

Don't ask me, dude - you're the one who called it "presumptive". That is, giving grounds for reasonable belief. Of course, you might have meant "presumptuous", but surely nobody would be silly enough to use a word the meaning of which they did not know while telling everyone else how stoopid they were?
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:41 / 16.11.05
Okay, sdv, I'd also like you to break this down a little for me. In what way has moderator response in this thread been 'normative' and acted as a 'closing down'?

Plainly I don't understand your above response, and given that it seems to be making accusations regarding the standard of moderation on this thread, I'd like you to do me the courtesy of having another go at explaining what you're finding problematic here.

Thanks, in advance.
 
  
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