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Riots in France

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01:36 / 04.11.05

Where is the thread discussing the riots in France? It's gone on for what, seven days now? Are race relations really this bad or does this come as a complete surprise? Had this same thing happened in the United States, the U.S. would have received a heap of criticism for its treatment of immigrants. Is this an unfair double-standard?

I know this isn't exactly a well-formulated thread but I'm wondering if anyone (e.g. a European) could give me better insight into race/immigrant relations in France and whether or not this should have been expected.

09:39 / 04.11.05

It's the same old story, nothing new: if you leave someone out of the party, they will eventually crash in...

09:55 / 04.11.05

?

This is the first I've heard about this... sounds interesting.

Anybody got any links or info to hand?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

10:09 / 04.11.05

It's quite nasty. It's been going on for a few nights now. Blunkett's been grabbing the headlines over here, though.

Harold Washington died for you

10:09 / 04.11.05

Seven Africans die in another Paris apartment fire

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

10:11 / 04.11.05

Basically, a couple of guys were elctorcuted at some kind of power station while running from the police, and it all kicked off. I know none of this is answering your questions, Slim, but I shall endeavour to do so when I get a chance.

10:27 / 04.11.05

Had this same thing happened in the United States, the U.S. would have received a heap of criticism for its treatment of immigrants. Is this an unfair double-standard?

Well, it's a little close to home for the UK media; they're usually quite happy to criticise the French to some degree or another, but given our own issues with not quite treating immigrants as they deserve, they would lay themselves open a bit if they engaged in any real flag-waving, and it's not like many of them are interested in analysing the situation. The US, on the other hand, has different issues so can be roundly slagged off without much fear of comparison.

As to why there's not much talk of it on here and on the net, there is the simple fact that it's a lot easier to be informed and talk about US politics than European politics because (a) the US has an enormous presence on the internet and most importantly (b) it's in English. I have a much much better idea about how the US system works and the latest issues there than I do about France, Spain or Germany. It's a bit crap, really, I know. My French is probably good enough to read some reports, though I'm not sure it's good enough to read anything useful.

15:49 / 04.11.05

From the Agence France-Presse:

French gov't powerless as worsening riots spread from Paris
04/11/2005 14h37

PARIS (AFP) - Gangs of youths again stoned police and set cars ablaze as France's worst rioting in more than a decade raged for its eighth straight night, sparking fears that racial and social divisions were fuelling growing violence.

In a worrying sign, the rampages that have gripped the poorer immigrant-populated outskirts of Paris since October 27 spread, for the first time, to other parts of the country, to Dijon, Marseille and Normandy, and inside the capital itself.

They have also taken on an increasingly dangerous tone, with buckshot fired at riot squad vans -- and prosecutors revealing that a handicapped woman was deliberately set on fire the night before...

Those responsible are groups of young Muslim men, the sons of families from France's former Arab and African colonial territories, who have said in interviews that they are protesting economic misery, racial discrimination and provocative policing.....

Clearly, the French government doesn't know how to handle this. It's been eight straight days of rioting and they still can't decide on what policy to take towards the rioters. I find it ironic that France, which has hurled so much criticism towards the U.S. for its racial problems, is undergoing such an ordeal.

20:21 / 04.11.05

Had this same thing happened in the United States, the U.S. would have received a heap of criticism for its treatment of immigrants.

Had it happened in the US - or even the UK - it'd be dominating headlines to a far greater extent. Europe just doesn't count...

But yeah, I think race is treated quite differently in different European countries. I need to read up on this.

ONLY NICE THINGS

22:58 / 04.11.05

On the other, hand, I'm finding Slim's position - that the important thintg about these riots is that they show how people who say bad things about the US are a) hypocrites and b) in line for a heinie-whooping by Nemesis - tiresomely triumphalist. Could we maybe talk about France in this thread rather than the US?

23:09 / 04.11.05

Mmm, I knowhatchamean. As some have mentioned, though, non-English-speaking countries tend not to hit the headlines quite as easily. Also (and this shamelessly dovetails with my I hate US drama thread in the FT&T forum), despite its geographical closeness, we've relatively little idea of French culture as absorbed via cinema/television, so it's difficult to establish a context for the 'RIOTS!!1!' headines.

23:32 / 04.11.05

Much of my knowledge of French cultural and racial diversity/assimilation is about a decade out of date, but as a bit of background we should probably begin with Les Beurs, a colloquial term for the offspring of the predominently Muslim immigrant from France's former colonies in North Africa...

ONLY NICE THINGS

23:37 / 04.11.05

But surely one thign that does crop up in culture that emerges from France is the problem of the impoverished inhabitants of les banlieux - I'm thinking of La Haine, f'r example. That France has a large minority muslim/African population and that muslims/Africans in France often feel marginalised and discriminated against is surely not startling news - it's one of the grand narratives of modern France.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

05:49 / 05.11.05

Yes, there's long been this tension in France, and France doesn't "get away with it" (for want of a better phrasing- not quoting anyone) as such- when we get news from there, it's often of this type, though not usually to this extent. France just doesn't get much coverage in non-English speaking countries.

10:14 / 05.11.05

Marauding youths set fire to cars and warehouses and pelted rescuers with rocks early Saturday, as the worst rioting in a decade spread from Paris to other French cities.

"Attackers doused the woman, in her 50s and on crutches, with an inflammable liquid and set her afire as she tried to get off a bus in the suburb of Sevran Wednesday, judicial officials said. The bus had been forced to stop because of burning objects in its path. She was rescued by the driver and hospitalized with severe burns. "

Top of the google news again today, Paris descends into post-apocalypse style social breakdown like a frickin' zombie movie, and other cities follow...
The two guys who got electrocuted weren't even being chased by police, they just thought they were, and that an electrical substation would be a good place to hide. Stupid.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

10:18 / 05.11.05

As I understand it, part of the problem is that France doesn't really care about racial minorities, in the sense that in The Republic, everyone is a Citizen, regardless of their racial identity. This then means that it's extremely difficult/almost impossible to deal with institutional racism, because 'everyone is equal in the Republic'. There are growing rumbles about French villages and towns being vile to English people moving in, even when they do try to integrate, but that's slightly different to this.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

21:45 / 05.11.05

There are growing rumbles about French villages and towns being vile to English people moving in, even when they do try to integrate

I think there's a great thread idea in there (it's something I've always found amusing, in that the same UK press that hates immigration seems somehow to think it's out of order when other countries get pissed off when Brits move in)... fancy starting it? Or gimme a couple of days and I will. Either way, I think it's a definite thing...

10:06 / 06.11.05

An interesting way I've seen this framed is that it is a reaction against institutional racism that France has a unique problem in acknowledging because its whole creed is equality, egality, fraternity.

But the really interesting thing is that this uprising of disenfranchised peoples is occuring in a perculiarly French way, in some ways akin to May '68. Unlike in London, Madrid and New York, these people aren't operating in small cells to blow up large numbers of people: they are going out into the streets and rioting openly.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

11:02 / 06.11.05

Although there are also daytime marches by people sick of the rioting.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

16:09 / 06.11.05

Everyone's favourite right-wing harridan Melanie Phillips wants to know why no-one else is, like here, automatically equating 'Muslim' with 'terrorism'. God, it's depressing when you realise she tones down her opinions when she writes newspaper articles.

16:31 / 06.11.05

Melanie Phillips makes Julie Burchill look like a beacon of sanity and reason.

Or maybe I'm just desperately covering up for the failures of "multiculturalism", and unable to recognise that Islam is a RELIGION OF WAR. You decide.

18:13 / 06.11.05

Glad, La Haine got a mention. Think it got its tenth anniversary re-release earlier this year and these events show it is still very relevant and that things haven't moved on. Sad considering that the French government at the time made it complusory viewing for its ministers.

Big problem is that all the reporting will be from the authorities side and as such they will try and de-legitimise it, just as they always do with any anti-government protests. Glad to say I've just seen a Channel 4 report that tried to do something about that by speaking with the "youths", and what that makes clear is that the incident with the electricuted teenagers was just the straw that broke the camels back.

Personally, I'd rather see teenagers rioting in the UK against the raw deal many of them get out the education/employment/training system, the lack of resources, ASBOs, police harassment, etc., than them forming gangs that simply pick on their own and conform to MTV stereotypes. We saw some of that type of tension recently in Birmingham but there seems to have been no protest about the recent case of an Asian teenager picked up and dumped in a bin by a police officer because he filmed them on his phone. But then the UK doesn't have Frances culture of protest.

03:10 / 07.11.05

What the the hell is up with France? The French way of rioting seems to be to burn vehicles and oil is an issue and autos are a big part of how we wage war now on other nations and that the whole "terrorist." thing is gaining new levels every day as far as making a reason for war.. We make cookies to forget our own pain, and after we eat them we will feel right as rain.

M

Sjaak at the Shoe Shop

12:55 / 07.11.05

Since the 60's France has absorbed the biggest number of immigrants of all Europe, mostly poor and poorly educated north-africans. Unfortunately the majority have ended up in the sub-urbs, the 'banlieus'. Things seem to be better now then 20 yrs ago, then some banlieus were called 'bidonvilles', as so many were living in steel corrugated shelters.

The general consensus at this moment seems to be that there has not been much effort to integrate these immigrants economically and also socially.

I don't believe that the principles of the french republic have much to do with that. France has been perfectly capable of supporting whichever sector they wanted. (see the state support for french corporations, which also doesn't match the principles of the Republic).

Actually, the Republic had a major victory last year over the principle of Laicite, or the absence of religious symbols in public office. When head scarves were banned from French schools and french hostages were taken by extremists in an effort to mobilize support against this law there was large popular support against the extremists.

No, I think it is 40 yrs of social and economical neglect that is coming out, then an explosive population growth in these neighbourhoods, and finally, close to the end of ramadan, with high tempers.

Sjaak at the Shoe Shop

18:41 / 07.11.05

Two interesting elements I can add:
1) Different from most European countries France is very centralized. As a consequence there are few local inititatives to improve socio/economic conditions in the banlieus, as well as integration. These kind of initiatives are normally taken by the central government.

2) There has been little concerted action by the government sofar, basically letting it continue and causing the situation to aggravate. This caused by the competition between Chirac, de Villepin, and Sarkozy, all aiming for the leadership of the central-right UDF.
In Chirac's case it is almost comical as he did the same thing (keeping back when he should have acted) towards the socialist party with the EU constitution vote, hoping for political gain. In that case it backfired, which it will probably do here as well.

20:37 / 07.11.05

The general consensus at this moment seems to be that there has not been much effort to integrate these immigrants economically and also socially.

I don't believe that the principles of the french republic have much to do with that.

Do you mean that the principles of the French Republic don't engage with efforts to integrate French citizens of north African origin with the the rest of French society?

Sjaak at the Shoe Shop

07:19 / 08.11.05

What I meant is that I do not believe that there is a limitation on government support for integration out of the egalite principle. Or, that this principle precludes positive discrimination or government support for any group in society.

Examples of positive support have been abundant in the past 20 yrs, such as the farmers, fishermen, truckdrivers, all having been compensated or supported (often against EU regulations).

The major difference is that these groups put on strikes or roadblocks(Tour de France afficionados know all about those), have unions, have political leverage, so get something done.

08:39 / 08.11.05

Just clarifying there.

I disagree that the principle of egality has nothing to do with matters in France. Let me hasten to add that I don't think they are the cause either, but it does act as an effective mask for casual rasicism and widespread discrimination against North Africans that is suprizingly widespread in France.

That is to say the problems that afflict France are largely ecconomic, but disproportionately effect a group of people the French state doesn't recognize, unlike the special interest groups you outline such as farmers and fishermen.

*

21:40 / 08.11.05

This from Michael Balter's blog:

French society is no more or less racist than that of most other western countries, yet everyone in France knows that that conditions in these suburbs are intolerable, and everyone knows that most of the victims of these conditions are Africans. Can we not just come right out and say that for many white French men and women, this makes it somehow okay?

16:41 / 09.11.05

The discussion of egality here is important.

As with "equal opportunities", terms like egality and equality are misunderstood, maybe deliberately. Just as equality of access for someone with a physical disadvantage may mean putting extra resources in, so for someone who has social disadvantages this should also means putting in the resources approptiate to allow them to operate on a level playing field, within reason - by which I mean you can't make the lame walk. I always forget the exact Marx phrase, but it about each according to there needs each according to there ability - in short treating people equally is not about ignoring differences but taking them into account. There is a common misconception to the contrary.

16:53 / 09.11.05

As a little side-note on the media portrayal of the rioting, I wonder if the use of the word "suburbs" (while technically correct) doesn't disorient casual readers, just a bit. I don't know about the UK, but in the US, "suburbs" tend to be associated with middle-to-upper-middle-class professional families (the SUV market, more or less). The phrase, used in CNN coverage of the riots, "disillusioned suburban youth" immediately brings to mind bored, spoiled children of privilege (almost identical phrases are sometimes used dismissively of punks or white hip-hop fans).

Now, clearly, anyone who's paying the slightest attention to what's happening in France knows that what are really being talked about are critically underprivileged youth in the poorest neighborhoods, but I wonder if the word "suburbs" doesn't still give a moment's cognitive dissonance.

There's no real criticism or conclusion here, just musing after reading the news. As you were.

16:56 / 09.11.05

Malarki: well said.

17:14 / 09.11.05

Lepidopteran: They mentioned that on NPR this morning -- France is the opposite of the US in that inner cities are upscale and suburbs are bleak and overcrowded.

Which is interesting.

17:21 / 09.11.05

France is the opposite of the US in that inner cities are upscale and suburbs are bleak and overcrowded

The recent trends in urban living mean that the UK is probably more similiar to France now than the US. As someone who works with young people in an inner city area, I know that most are now priced out of even renting properties in central london and social housing is very limited, so the less priviledged groups are moving out to the suburbs, including refugees and asylum seekers, leading to tensions that allow groups like the BNP to poll their highest votes in local elections in these areas (I'm thinking Barking and Dagenham here). Anyone whose been to Edmonton in north london knows exactly how grim our suburbs are.

17:34 / 09.11.05

Edinburgh's the same, and has been for decades. Irvine Welsh often cites that as a factor in north-of-the-borrrder violence.

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