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I hate US drama

 
  

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Spatula Clarke
22:33 / 02.11.05
Quick run down of first page gives 10 threads (or 9 if you want to exclude Serenity, debatable.) devoted to US drama and 3 to UK drama. I find this interesting, given the perception elsewhere (eg in the Nationalities conversation thread, among others) that this place is has more UK posters than any other.

US drama is more widely exported than UK stuff, though. It's often a common point of reference for everybody on the board, regardless of their whereabouts, so it's inevitable that discussions about it are going to be more active.

I also think you could argue that US stuff is targetted specifically at the sort of age range Barbelith attracts.

There is a certain look to a lot of American stuff that marks it out as having come from American producers. Colours are fat and brash, on the brink of being over-saturated. There also seems to be a set way of framing and pacing scenes. Sopranos and Six Feet Under are notable exceptions to the rule, though - they both experiment with different techniques and narrative structures - and I wonder if this isn't part of the reason why you feel differently about them.

There's not, if I'm honest, a huge amount of television drama (as in ongoing series) from the US or the UK that I'm particularly keen on. Some of that is the thing about not feeling that it speaks to me, or talks about experiences that have any relation to my own life, but the larger part of it is because of this lack of... spark. Sopranos, Shield and, to a lesser extent, Six Feet Under possess the vitality that I think is missing from most, but I struggle to think of any UK output that can compete with them on any sort of level.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
23:42 / 02.11.05
Oh, and quickly, as I forgot to mention this and 'nesh has reminded me:

I think some projection is going on here...

I'd like a little clarification of where/how I might be 'projecting'.

I discussed my impressions of/relationship to this forum, as Ganesh had pinpointed something with which I connected.

At no point am I attributing my feelings about US drama to other posters/threads here nor am I suggesting that the everyone shares my beliefs about them. The opposite, in fact.

Are you saying that I secretly think everyone dislikes some US drama in exactly the same way I do?

Or, as 'nesh suggests, do you actually mean something else?
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
23:45 / 02.11.05
Anyway, pyschology terminology aside, I think there *is* a point perhaps worth investigating about subcultures and their aesthetics. As, as I said above, one of my interests here is in figuring out for myself why my own tastes seem to be pretty Barbe-standard in, say, Music, but not really at all in (Films and) TV programmes
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:29 / 03.11.05
I'm not sure why Firefly would grab you any differently than any of the others mentioned

I find an exercise in space opera vs. wild west fascinating. I think it's the most interesting American story- I find it positive because unlike Smallville and the like it reminds me of the nicer parts of the culture. Quite a success for a war/immigration story.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:18 / 03.11.05
(off topic)

Hmmm... Firefly's backdrop reminds me of the more exciting parts of the culture, but nicer? It harks back to a socially/politically immature time where there was no real adherence to rights or laws governing how people treat one another. Terraforming is a basically intrusive and violent act (maybe the reason there are no aliens/forms of alien life in firefly is because they were all murdered to make these moons/planets habitable?), just as when the settlers first moving into North America/the slavers entered Africa.

Nice isn't the word I'd use.

(/off topic)
 
 
Jub
10:44 / 03.11.05
I recently read an article (and for the life of me can't find it on google otherwise would link) basically suggesting the abundance of teen shows in the US and constant harping on about school was to re-affirm the average American sense of worth and conformity to the National Ideals. At school students pledged alliegence to the flag etc, and because of this the American identity is stronger. Shows based in schools - and there is an abundance of them compared with... er Grange Hill and?? ,.... mean that the adults in the culture can reaffirm their worth as US citizens. Did anyone else read this?
 
 
Ganesh
10:52 / 03.11.05
GGM:

Yeah, me too. I look at this forum and wonder what everyone else is getting that I don't/wonder if people are watching different channels to me.

That's pretty much my experience, too, with the added factor of having a partner whose evident enjoyment of certain shows I find myself unable to share. On Barbelith, it puzzles me to find so many lo-o-o-ong threads on the various seasons/incarnations of Buffy, Smallville, Lost, etc. while the stuff I like tends to go unremarked upon. I went through a period of assiduous thread-starting (think I initiated the discussions of Bodies, No Angels, Buried, etc.) but noticed the same handful of posters - yourself included - contributing, with the threads in question quickly sinking. Which suggests to me that there isn't the same sustained interest in the stuff I like - or maybe the shorter runs don't allow for the same buzz. I dunno.

(the definite exception being The Sopranos. Oh, and in times past, Twin Peaks. How do you fare with TP?)

I've a feeling Twin Peaks began during my Year Of Living Without A Television (*shudder*), so I read about it but couldn't get reeled in. Having seen bits of it subsequently, I think I might have rather liked it.

So, basically we're maybe looking at how different cultures 'do' drama, and why that appeals/doesn't.

As, rewatching QAF recently (and loving it all over again) I was struck by how glossy and beautiful it is, how fantastical some elements of the storyline are. (oddly, I remembered it from first time round as being very 'gritty', and wasn't impressed with the ending. This time round I love the ending, fits perfectly with the unreality of parts of the narrative) Elements you are critiquing here. (on the commentary, Russell T and Nichola Shindler say that in look they were very influenced by/aiming for things like Ally Mc Beal)

But it grips me totally.


Interesting, since I loathed Ally McBeal and adored Queer As Folk. In that particular case, it was probably the delightful novelty of seeing British Queer (complete with 'gritty' regional accents) depicted in shinytwinkly 'enhanced realism' that made the show special and lovely to me.

Is it an expectation thing? Do you, or I, go to drama looking for some reflection of our culture? Are we looking for 'Britishness'?

I think maybe it is. Rather than 'pure' escapism, I must be looking for some elements which which I can identify, which stand out to me as 'real', which I recognise. For better or worse, I associated 'realism'/'authenticity' with certain styles of UK drama, and find little in its glossy US counterpart that I can get my teeth into.

(Which of course doesn't explain why I love The Sops with that obssesivness yr talking about)

I think that, as well as 'Britishness' being something I look to recognise in drama, I'm also hungry for stuff that reflects my life in other ways. I'm more likely to be intrigued by drama featuring gay characters, for example, because I can play compare 'n' contrast with my own experiences.

In the case of The Sopranos, I think a big part of the appeal is the framing device of psychotherapy. If they hadn't got this so right, particularly in the early days, I don't think I'd have stuck with the show. The other aspect of The Sopranos (and, come to think of it, Six Feet Under) which I feel is generally lacking in the titles on my hate-list is the focus on the dilemmas and dynamics of older-than-twentysomething people within a family. Being in my mid-30s myself, I'm no longer gripped by depictions of teen/twentysomething angst. I'm interested in the life experiences of thirtysomethings, fortysomethings, people balancing work, long-term relationships, social life, etc. The Sopranos also avoids too much of the 'beautiful teens' thing, which just bores me.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:09 / 03.11.05
Nice isn't the word I'd use.

Sorry, a complete lack of clarity there: I really meant in comparison to Smallville and The Sopranos, as in I think the crew are generally nicer than the people in those shows and my brain's been on resistance in America at the moment. Don't mind me, I'm at work and really don't have the time and thus shouldn't be on barbelith.
 
 
matthew.
13:10 / 03.11.05
So Ganesh, where do you stand on Miami Vice, haha.

I bought the first season of Vice last summer because it was super-cheap (20 bucks Canadian or 9.55 GBP) and because I have an intense love of all things Michael Mann.

I had heard in the past that Miami Vice was the epitome of glossy and was, according to the source (some article), one of the most influential dramas in US history because of its glossiness. It rejected all forms of gritty save in plot only. Otherwise, it was hot people in a hot locale doing hot things. Vice was all about the fashion, about the music, the cars, and the women in bikinis. Vice was style over substance long before CSI was a twinkle in Bruckheimer's eye.

But I love it. It's glossiness back then had created a gritty look now because of the aging of the process intended to create the gloss. It's interesting that I'll never be able to watch it in its original form, with the original soundtrack (the DVD had to change some songs because of licensing issues), so I'll never experience its glossiness.

So, Ganesh, if you're looking at a show to blame for the sheen of today's shows, look no further than Miami Vice.
 
 
Ganesh
13:41 / 03.11.05
Erm, thanks.

I'm not looking to 'blame' any show in particular; I don't think US drama is, in and of itself, to blame for the fact that I don't like it. This thread is essentially me fishing around, trying to articulate some of the reasons why I find myself (apparently) so at odds with others here. Increasingly (having mulled over GGM's points, in particular), I think it's about the different ways in which we consume television, and what we're looking for.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
14:05 / 03.11.05
I don't think it's much of a coincidence that a lot of the lo-o-o-ng threads on this board (Buffy, Smallville, Lost) are for shows that are essentially comic books in televisual form, in a general sense.
 
 
Ganesh
14:13 / 03.11.05
I agree, Suedey. As I mentioned earlier, I'm not a huge fan of the ongoing 'soapey' thing in general. At the risk of banging on about 'arcs' again, I think this is because the more-or-less open-ended format eventually leaches drama of those aspects which attract me to it in the first place.
 
 
matthew.
21:04 / 03.11.05
I think it's about the different ways in which we consume television, and what we're looking for.

Sounds like a really good PhD thesis, if you ask me.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
10:07 / 04.11.05
Ha.

Find me some funding and I'm there.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
10:14 / 04.11.05
oh, and G, when RTD and NS are talking about Ally Mc Beal as an influence, as far as I can tell, they mean only in visual style.

AFAI can tell they were both very bored with the cliche of English drama, especially *Northern* English drama, having to look grey and gritty in order to have impact and instead wanted something that had impact by/and also was beautiful, showed the beauty of the city/surroundings. So, like alot of US Drama, rather than doing a million locations, basically they spent alot of money on good lighting/camerawork.

Interestingly they both said that the only bit where they felt it didn't work was in the hospital scenes, where Romy is giving birth. They both said that viewing it now, the hospital looks unrealistically shiny, and I'd agree.

But in general, they wanted, and felt they'd achieved something different in British drama, a visually exciting/glossy look rather than a just-as-constructed 'gritty' one.

(yes, I have watched DVD too many times.)
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
10:17 / 04.11.05
I get the impression that QAF is partly a love letter to Manchester, it's very specifically written from RTD's experiences/life there, so showing the excitement/beauty of life there is part and parcel of what it's trying to do.

(see also Michael Winterbotton in Wonderland(London) and 24Party People (Manchester))
 
 
Ganesh
20:16 / 04.11.05
Absolutely, I almost mentioned Wonderland in my last post. A particular favourite.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:55 / 04.11.05
I think Flyboy's point was rather that you were projecting onto Barbelith as a whole Xoc's love of American TV series, in order to amplify your bewilderment and isolation in the face of it.

Having said which, isn't the next step to think about what US drama Xoc/Barbelith patently does not love? For example. why has there been no sustained discussion, to my recollection, of Andromeda or Stargate:SG1. Also, it's worth noting that many of the shows you mentioned have attained an artificial sense of Barbelith investment because a very small number of people have posted repeatedly, often doing nothing or little more than quoting Internet sources verbatim. I think the psephology of Barbelith telvisual tastes is a bit more complex than this model allows for.
 
 
Ganesh
00:08 / 05.11.05
I think Flyboy's point was rather that you were projecting onto Barbelith as a whole Xoc's love of American TV series, in order to amplify your bewilderment and isolation in the face of it.

If that's what Flyboy was indeed saying, then that makes some sense - although I'm not sure I was even attempting to claim to What Xoc Likes = What Barbelith Likes, merely that there seems to be rather more overlap than that between What Barbelith Likes and What I Like.

Having said which, isn't the next step to think about what US drama Xoc/Barbelith patently does not love? For example. why has there been no sustained discussion, to my recollection, of Andromeda or Stargate:SG1.

Again, the two do not necessarily map onto one another. Xoc rarely misses Stargate: SG1 and I thi-i-ink he liked Andromeda (although it was less must-see). I'm not sure why those haven't been heavily discussed here.

Also, it's worth noting that many of the shows you mentioned have attained an artificial sense of Barbelith investment because a very small number of people have posted repeatedly, often doing nothing or little more than quoting Internet sources verbatim. I think the psephology of Barbelith telvisual tastes is a bit more complex than this model allows for.

I'm sure you're right. The point remains, however, that those shows have attracted at least some intensely invested fans (invested enough to repeatedly post, anyway), while the stuff that makes me feel like a crack addict rarely goes beyond two pages (and I'm usually the most active poster). This suggests that, while No. Of Posts On Barbelith does not necessarily = Degree Of Barbelith Investment, it probably = more Barbelith Investment than in the stuff I find rave-worthy.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:33 / 05.11.05
It is interesting, and I think that the episodic investment may be a factor - if something is coming out every week for 22 weeks a year, it's going to stimulate more interest. There's also the pure numbers game- Barbeloids in the UK tend to have access to American television programmes, whereas I have no idea how one would go about watching Green Wing in the US. Possibly also the one-shot effect - at least until quite recently, you had to pay money to have a chance to see the same episode of the West Wing repeated 5 or 6 times a week in the UK, so opportunities to see it and therefore to talk about it were more limited (although digital TV is helping to change that, probably).

Beyond that, I don't know - maybe one split is not US/UK, but Sci-Fi/not Sci-Fi. As I mentioned, Dr. Who got huge amounts of discussion (although this doesn't explain Andromeda...) perhaps Barbelith as a whole is just friendlier to sci-fi shows, as it is friendlier to, say, superhero comics.
 
 
Ganesh
00:40 / 05.11.05
Maybe. I think Barbelith is friendlier to sci-fi shows, but also friendlier to long-running, multi-season shows (possibly the comics connection?) and perhaps also friendlier to a certain type of quickfire dialogue (looking at you, Joss W).
 
 
grant
19:48 / 07.11.05
I wonder, unrelated to availability, if the rise of the multi-story arc in US drama (or non-laugh-track comedies like Northern Exposure and The Gilmore Girls) has anything to do with people in the 80s and 90s starting to notice the massive popularity of telenovelas in the Spanish-speaking world.

These are basically soap operas with endpoints -- narrative arcs. It's notable that Maggie from Northern Exposure and Sarah Michelle Vampire Slayer were both soap opera actresses first.

While I love Northern Exposure (and am watching Buffy and the Gilmores on DVD now, along with another long-arc show, Babylon 5), I kind of think that which I like least about them is the soapy elements. The manipulative plotting & in-jokey-ness.

It's odd that the only British things I've seen that feel remotely similar are League of Gentlemen and The Office, both of which are not at all involved with dramatic narrative conventions (The Office, for me, is at its worst when it starts feeling like anything other than a documentary.)
 
 
Ganesh
23:44 / 09.05.06
It's odd that the only British things I've seen that feel remotely similar are League of Gentlemen and The Office, both of which are not at all involved with dramatic narrative conventions

You reckon? League of Gentlemen is a set of interweaving narratives, while The Office, while taking the form of a documentary, certainly contains elements of more conventional drama (eg. the developing love affair between Tim and Dawn). In both cases, however, the actor-creators have gone on record as being very conscious of not wanting to exhaust the format by churning out series after series, with diminishing returns. I think they've managed to avoid too much of the manipulative 'soapiness' that I attempted to articulate upthread (The Office probably more so than League of Gentlemen).

Reminded of this old thread by Matt's recent linkage - and itchyscratchiness fuelled by irritant du jour: the US import, Invasion...
 
 
matthew.
00:22 / 10.05.06
You know, 'nesh, I have been disliking US dramas for the past six months or so for some reason or another. There's something manipulative about the dramas, something cold and calculating in them. I'm thinking of the CSIs and the Criminal Intent, and the Law and Order: SVU. They all push the right buttons, but only a little. It's shocking, but not enough to write your Congressman. It's titillating, but not enough to ban a Jackson.

However, The Sopranos is kicking ass this season. Kicking ass and taking names.
 
 
grant
15:04 / 16.05.06
"At all" is an overstatement, but League of Gentlemen (I haven't seen the third season yet) seems to reset at the end of each season, doesn't it? It doesn't care about continuity as much as something more "serious" like Northern Exposure or, for that matter, Twin Peaks.
 
 
sleazenation
15:17 / 16.05.06
Re: invasion - it wasn't very good when it started, and hasn't got better since...
 
 
Ganesh
18:07 / 16.05.06
but League of Gentlemen (I haven't seen the third season yet) seems to reset at the end of each season, doesn't it?

No, not really. It's true that they've played fast and loose with favourite characters for the spin-offs (the film and the pantomime), but within the series itself (which is probably the nearest thing to canon), dead characters have, for the most part, stayed dead, etc. I agree that their continuity is sometimes sacrificed to a good story (between series one and two, Edward and Tubbs' son becomes a never-seen creature locked in an upstairs room) but it certainly doesn't simply reset in the manner you suggest.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
20:01 / 16.05.06
There wasn't that much continuity in Northern Exposure, was there? I know the relationship map of all the characters would remian consistent with what had gone before, but details of each episode's storyline never carried over into subsequent eps, did it?
 
 
grant
17:21 / 17.05.06
Oh, yeah. Especially in later seasons, which became about Joel and Maggie becoming boyfriend/girlfriend, and Holling becoming a father. And then, Joel leaving the show....

Actually, even early on, I seem to remember a feud between Minifield and Holling that lasted over a few episodes. The continuity was never really a major story point, but it was there.
 
 
grant
17:28 / 17.05.06
between series one and two, Edward and Tubbs' son becomes a never-seen creature locked in an upstairs room

That's what I was thinking about -- I couldn't remember what had happened to the shop at the end of the first season, but I remember it felt catalysmic. And then season 2 ends with the torch-wielding mob... but anyway, that show tolerates a lot more oddness with character and "universe" than others. It's not a real-world narrative, or even internally consistent (in feel, at least -- they do a great job sticking bits of fantasy in with the satirical, closer-to-home stuff, but the James Herriott satire seems like a different world than the creature upstairs or the wish-granting toad, if you know what I mean).
 
 
Ganesh
17:44 / 17.05.06
I don't really see it as jarring in that sense - even though it's a hybrid of running sketch show and soap grotesque. It's tied together by a sort of English Gothic thread (Dr Chinnery kills his patients because he's currrrsed, etc.) which harks back to all manner of old stories and gobbets of folklore. There certainly isn't a status quo which resets itself at the beginning of each series: events change things, characters die, are imprisoned, fall in and out of love with each other. The spin-offs are more playful, less tied to continuity.
 
  

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