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I hate US drama

 
  

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Ganesh
23:50 / 01.11.05
Okay, so it's a stupidly overstated thread title. I was going to call it High Production Values = Good? but, mulling it over, I decided my problem with US television drama is bigger than that. And it is my problem; I'm aware of that. This thread isn't intended simply as an exercise in whingeyness, but as an attempt to articulate something that's been bothering me for several years.

It's been bothering me because I'm aware that, when it comes to drama on the small screen, I seem to be at odds with many of my contemporaries, on Barbelith and in Real Life. Xoc will happily digest hours of ER, Buffy, Firefly, 4400, Roswell, Stargate, 24, The West Wing, Smallville, etc., etc. - the same stuff that's discussed here at length - but these shows leave me utterly cold. He sometimes accuses me of being superior or dismissive or a snob, but the truth is, I just find it near-impossible to engage with a lot of the stuff he likes. I can't maintain attention. Even Lost lost me after around three episodes.

There are exceptions, of course. I liked The Sopranos a lot. Latterly, though, even it stopped being must-see television. I could've missed an episode here and there without feeling especially bereft. Same with Six Feet Under, although I lost interest in it considerably sooner (Xoc informs me tonight's the grand finale of the whole shebang, and I've barely got a semi). The X-Files I stayed with for several seasons, back in the dayyy...

By contrast, the stuff that's really grabbed me, that's had me distraught at missing an episode and pining for the DVDs, seems barely to rate a thread here or, if it's mentioned, seems to attract a handful of posts - a page or two, if it's by Russell T - before drifting below the horizon. Clocking Off, Queer As Folk, Bob & Rose, This Life, Buried, Ultraviolet, Bodies, No Angels, Shameless, erm, The Tripods (okay, I've just watched it again on DVD): in contrast to the first list, I can (and do) pass a day watching episode after episode of any of these.

It really isn't a consciously anti-American or Brit-centric pose: most US drama really does turn me off. Why? I've been thinking about this a lot, and here's what I've come up with:

It's US-centric: well, duh. I suppose this is the nearest I get to to halfway thought-through 'political' objection, so let's deal with it firstoff. A lot of US drama annoys me for the same reasons the US media annoys me: it appears predicated on the implicit assumption that America Is The World, or at least, America Is That Part Of The World That Need Concern Us For Now. For me, this reaches its apogee in those serials involving supposedly 'alien' races - who invariably choose to land in America, abduct Americans, speak American English, appear as American teens.

I read a theory somewhere (in a post-9/11 'Why People Hate America' style polemic) that every US drama is, at heart, a western - or, at least, draws on the myths of the frontier. I think this overstates the case, but I do notice many of the same cultural memes cropping up again and again, particularly in adventure or space dramas: circling the wagons against an external foe; the desirability of 'can-do' go-getting over poncey intellectualising; problems solved by conflict (fists, firearms); the primacy of work relationships over personal; professional self-sacrifice; the importance of feeling; a vanilla-to-the-point-of-prudish, often angst-ridden approach to sexuality; God.

On a related note,

It's ubiquitous to the point that, on some channels, it's almost become the mainstream - in the same way (but not to nearly the same extent) as Hollywood has become the global cinematic mainstream. American cultural quirks - some of which are mentioned above - are, I think, seen as universals of the human condition. I think we don't realise the extent of this until we look at European or Asian film/television, and realise how alien it is. Those American memes are overfamiliar and limiting.

It's overly glossy: the ol' "high production values" thing. I'm sure it's a factor of me rather than the medium itself, but I actually find the super-articulate, groomed-to-perfection, gorgeously-lit approach quite distancing, particularly combined with what seems sometimes like a never-ending obsession with youth. Why does everything have to be experienced through the prism of preternaturally beautiful high-school teens, or perfectly-coiffed (yet fiercely dedicated) professionals? Why can't we see some physically unattractive over-30s who hate their jobs? (Okay, Tony Soprano.) Why always this alienating sheen of unusually articulate, quickfire-wisecracking, gleaming-toothed teen/twentysomething hardbodies? I mean, I like eye candy as much as the next man, but too much of it can get familiar to the point of deadening dullness.

I suppose I'm more drawn to stuff that looks real, in the warts 'n' all, shaky-camera sense (I love you, This Life). I'm well aware that this can be just as manipulative in its own way as visually slick, flicky-haired perfection, but somehow I just respond to it more warmly. I recognise it.

It's disproportionately feted in a 'why is American drama always so much better than British' way that never fails to irritate, as I think there's a tendency to conflate length with quality - so a show that's managed to maintain high viewing figures over several seasons is seen as several times better than a more self-contained gem lasting only one or two series'. I'm not sure I'm a fan of extending shows over several seasons, using a panel of writers: I think it can result in overreaching plotlines in which, as with a long-running DC/Marvel title, a core character or group of characters is more-or-less sacred, with events 'n' adventures essentially returning to the status quo at the end of each episode, so character development is slow or nonexistent, and almost no unsignposted surprises.

Finally, and perhaps most crucially:

It says nothing to me about my life. Well, almost nothing. There's precious little of my own life experience up on that screen. I'm not a beautiful-yet-troubled high school teen. I'm not a self-sacrificing-yet-sumptuously-lit professional without a personal life. I'm not an incredibly non-alien alien. I don't necessarily want to see programmes that completely reflect my background and life situation, but I want to be able to recognise some of what I see.

Hmm. I'm not sure how much of this is reasonable, defensible, arguable. Does any of it make sense to anyone?
 
 
gridley
01:52 / 02.11.05
Before I even think about arguing any of Ganesh's points, I'd like to add a few things that I hate about US dramas, even though... well... I love a lot of them.

Network fear of continuing storylines -- It's killed most of my favorite sci-fi dramas. The producers want a show that can be syndicated and replayed in any order. Even as a kid, I knew how wrong that was. I'd see Japanese and British shows were characters were allowed to develop over time and plots could unfold and resolve slowly, and just not understand why American TV was so scared of that. It's gotten a lot better over the years, what with Joss Whedon, but it's still very much an issue.

Filler episodes -- Almost all US dramas are set at 22 episodes per season. So even those that have concept-mandated continuing storylines, such as Lost or Prison Break, are going to flesh out their seasons with many, many episodes of filler that neither progess the plot nor truly develop character. Instead they'll just explore aspects that you already know.

Fear of killing characters -- Again this is getting slowly better, but only slowly and sporadicly. So much of the suspense in these dramas depends on you fearing for the character's lives, yet you know noone's going to die without two weeks of trailers and a cover story in Entertainment Weekly. Man, when Blake died on Blake's Seven, I went out of my mind, I was so surprised. Even knowing how disposable Doctor Who companions were I was blown away by Adric.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
01:57 / 02.11.05
As an American, I engage most w/those few American dramas which you favor. I could really give half a toss about the rest (w/the exception of lovely, lovely Buffy...for shame!). I think there's something to be said about the overall quality of the series you list.

There's definitely something to be said about how the cultural divide affects one's enjoyment of a given show. I've never quite understood the (perceived?)popularity of The Simpsons in the UK, given how very US-centric it is. But, again, when the quality's there... The Office is easily one of my favorite television shows ever, despite the fact that I only get about 1/3 of the references, at best. Probably because it does work on a broader, human level, outside of its particular cultural context.

I want to recommend Gilmore Girls to you as an example of very high quality US drama, but it's both unavailable in the UK (to my knowledge) and probably only slightly less US-centric than The Simpsons. So I don't know that it would help any.

My ultimate verdict of US television: it's still mostly of very poor quality, but the high quality stuff that's come out in the last several years is about as good as any television I've ever seen.
 
 
sleazenation
07:45 / 02.11.05
The sweaps control the sheduling...
Everyone has an overt awareness of when they - prgramme shedulers play to the sweeps to such an extent that they are effectively meaningless at their stated aim of giving advertisers accurate information about who is watching what and when.

Episodic shows start to repeat episodes in the weeks before the sweeps - it would seem various channel programmers are so incompetant that they can't shedule a series so that it runs from the start to the end with the desired episode.

As they are currently established the sweeps provide no accurate information for advertisers or statisticians and merely ensure four weeks a year of decent television, but also ensure that that each sweep is preceeded by three weeks of terrible television and jarring repeats in the middle of a season that only serve to disrupt the flow of the narrative and discourage a weekly viewing habit...
 
 
Ganesh
09:57 / 02.11.05
So much of the suspense in these dramas depends on you fearing for the character's lives, yet you know noone's going to die without two weeks of trailers and a cover story in Entertainment Weekly. Man, when Blake died on Blake's Seven, I went out of my mind, I was so surprised. Even knowing how disposable Doctor Who companions were I was blown away by Adric.

This is something of a factor in all drama, but I agree that it seems particularly prominent in US fare. When an apparently major character does die, particularly with little warning (the first series of Spooks), it can be enormously shocking.

Another point of comparison with comics titles is the occasional tendency for long-running serials to bring dead characters back (Buffy). That really pisses me off.
 
 
Warewullf
09:58 / 02.11.05
I want to recommend Gilmore Girls to you as an example of very high quality US drama,

I love Gilmore Girls. Like a small puppy. That I want to protect and keep safe from the big bad world. It is, in all likelihood, my favourite thing on TV at the moment. (Hallmark- Saturdays and Sundays, UK SKY People!)

As for the microcosm of the american high-school, it does get to be a bit much sometimes. I reccomend POPULAR as an antidote to that and an example of how that genre (is it a genre?) can still be fun.

The over-glossy, groomed-to-within-an-inch-of-their-life thing does bother the hell out of me. Look at some of the other programmes on Hallmark. Everyone, regardless of the job/position they have is a mid-twenties/very early thirties underwear model. It's very hard to believe any of these people really exist, let alone all happen to work together in the same law firm/advertising agency/DA's office/forensic lab.

(On that note, you gotta wonder if half the people who are popular UK TV stars would ever even be considered for TV roles in the US...)
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:05 / 02.11.05
Another point of comparison with comics titles is the occasional tendency for long-running serials to bring dead characters back (Buffy). That really pisses me off.

But that's long-running fantasy/science-fiction for you, in any format. Soap opera does it too, internationally (Dirty Den in Eastenders, Harold Bishop in Neighbours). I'm not sure that this can be said to be a characteristic of "US drama". More generally, I'm not quite sure why various types of US television are being grouped under that banner. ER, The West Wing, The Sopranos and Six Feet Under seem to be clearly of a different nature to the science-fiction/fantasy TV shows listed, and are then quite different beasts from each other, in ways both glaring (the HBO shows have more in common with each other than they do with a show like ER) and subtle.
 
 
sleazenation
10:34 / 02.11.05
True, true - there is a world of difference between HBO series and syndicated series and numerous other kinds of series...
 
 
Ganesh
10:41 / 02.11.05
As an American, I engage most w/those few American dramas which you favor. I could really give half a toss about the rest (w/the exception of lovely, lovely Buffy...for shame!). I think there's something to be said about the overall quality of the series you list.

To an extent, perhaps, but it depends on one's individual measure(s) of quality. There's a certain received wisdom in some UK critic circles, for example, that the stuff we import from the US is, on the whole, better-quality than UK drama. Arguments produced to substantiate this seem often to centre around good ol' "high production values" (the amount of money thrown at a show), dialogue (which not infrequently = rather stylised wisecracking) and a show's longevity.

As I say, I find the expensive 'sheen' on many US imports actually serves to distance them on an emotional level; I'm not sure why. It means that when I'm talking about a show's "quality" I have to try to be specific about what exactly I mean.
 
 
Ganesh
10:50 / 02.11.05
But that's long-running fantasy/science-fiction for you, in any format.

True, but long-running fantasy/science-fiction tends, on the whole, to come from the US - which is probably why I've conflated the two. Other than Doctor Who (which does 'back from the dead' in its own unique way), I can't really think of non-US examples.

Soap opera does it too, internationally (Dirty Den in Eastenders, Harold Bishop in Neighbours). I'm not sure that this can be said to be a characteristic of "US drama".

Maybe not. Maybe it's a characteristic of soap opera style plotting (it annoys me in soaps, too), which is characteristic of long-running fantasy/science-fiction shows, which are overrepresentated in US drama. So it's a series of overlaps/correlations.

More generally, I'm not quite sure why various types of US television are being grouped under that banner. ER, The West Wing, The Sopranos and Six Feet Under seem to be clearly of a different nature to the science-fiction/fantasy TV shows listed, and are then quite different beasts from each other, in ways both glaring (the HBO shows have more in common with each other than they do with a show like ER) and subtle.

They're being grouped under that banner because I'm exploring the question of why some shows which my partner likes a lot leave me completely cold. I wrote down everything I could think of that Xoc likes which I don't (and there's stuff I've likely left out, like the various Star Trek incarnations, Battlestar Galactica, etc.) and tried to find common elements. One obvious commonality is the fact that all this can loosely be grouped under the banner of long-running US drama. Sure, there're separate genres within that.
 
 
Ganesh
10:56 / 02.11.05
As for the microcosm of the american high-school, it does get to be a bit much sometimes. I reccomend POPULAR as an antidote to that and an example of how that genre (is it a genre?) can still be fun.

I've seen at least one episode of Popular, I think, and I couldn't tell you a thing about it. It went straight in and out the other side. This is what makes me think my aversion to a lot of this stuff is of a different order from some other Barbeloids': I don't think I have much interest in rediscovering the US high school genre. It's been done to death, in a myriad of forms, and I just can't relate to it at all now. It's not about it not being fun; it's about it not saying anything meaningful - or even terribly entertaining - to me that hasn't been said before. It's a genre I can't seem to engage with anymore, I don't think I have the patience or the motivation. I'm bored with it.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:11 / 02.11.05
Basically Ganesh you hate these shows because most of them are shit. They have bad pacing, bad writing, the characters never change, they're not people, they're the American Republican dream. Lost has one good episode in every three. ER has sucked for years. 24 was a concept that they didn't have the guts to stop making. 4400, Roswell, Stargate and Smallville are terrible in every way (except the Lex way and even that's repetitive). My only advice to you is to sit down and watch the first four episodes of Firefly together, it's actually gallivanting fun. I repeat, these shows are bad, it's about time Xoc admitted that he likes watching crap.
 
 
Ganesh
11:12 / 02.11.05
Grappling some more with this point:

ER, The West Wing, The Sopranos and Six Feet Under seem to be clearly of a different nature to the science-fiction/fantasy TV shows listed, and are then quite different beasts from each other, in ways both glaring (the HBO shows have more in common with each other than they do with a show like ER) and subtle.

Again, what they have in common is that I seem to have a failure of engagement with them (to varying degrees, as previously mentioned - The Sopranos held my interest longer than Six Feet Under, which held my interest longer than everything else), despite their being on much of the time for Xoc. And, obviously, they're all several-season shows hailing from the US.

I think I probably do have additional, more genre-specific reasons for disliking certain shows. I can't stand ER because I feel it pushes damaging myths about the medical profession. Star Trek irritates me because, as a devourer of 'big idea' science-fiction in the 1970s/80s, it strikes me as a colossal failure of imagination. Roswell and Buffy annoy me because I'm bored with the 'unusually articulate high school teens with speshul abilities' genre.

I suppose I've been trying to see past my gripes with individual shows/sub-genres and try to get at what these titles have in common that I'm not getting.
 
 
Ganesh
11:15 / 02.11.05
Nina, I think it's more than simply certain shows being shit. I'll do the Firefly thing as an experiment (I'm assuming Xoc's got the DVD somewhere) but it's likely to be an uphill struggle for me to get through more than one episode...

I suspect I must be watching television for different reasons. Or something.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
11:22 / 02.11.05
That comment in itself would seem to suggest that the problem is in the way you approach these shows, rather than any problem with the shows themselves. If you're coming at one you've never seen before thinking "it's American, I'll probably hate it," then yeah, you'll probably hate it.
 
 
Ganesh
11:44 / 02.11.05
No, E Randy, although I kinda expected someone to say that, I don't think my attitude's the main problem. I'm dubious because I've seen episodes of Firefly with half an eye, while Xoc was watching, and they didn't seem hugely different from other essentially space opera fare. In particular, the cluster of memes with which I'm (over)familiar (described in my first post) seemed, on a half-viewing, to be present and correct.

It's not simply "it's American, I'll probably hate it"; I'd hoped that I'd managed to articulate that. It's what comes with being a long-running US science-fiction series. All in my first post.
 
 
Ganesh
12:22 / 02.11.05
Actually, thinking about it, it occurs to me that one element of my general aversion to US drama is that it goes on too bloody long. Even those shows I've liked in the first season or two start to grate over time. The pressure to maintain the viewing-figures-grabbing situation can, in itself, warp the plot/character development in peculiar ways (off the top of my head, the fact that Carter of ER fame remained in the same junior doctor post for sodding years) and things become repetitive. As Christopher Moltisanti would say, there's no arc.
 
 
Bear
12:29 / 02.11.05
I think Nina is probably onto something with the shit theory, most of the stuff being mention is pretty shit/e but enjoyable shite and like you said it sounds like your looking for something more involving than just a quick hours fix...

I watch Smallville (or at least did) it's fun and it passes 45 minutes but it's be no means great TV, maybe I'm just easily pleased - in fact I know I'm easily pleased I watch Smallville/Lost/Alias/Prison Break/Surface/Threshold all of which are pretty much pass the time TV - maybe not Lost.. I haven't decided on that yet...but I view them in a different light to something like The Sopranos/Oz (HBO shows basically)

Maybe your problems are something to do with character arc? I mean Sopranos has arcs but most of the episodes work as stand alone shows right? Same with X-files (mostly) where something like Buffy/Lost... and most of the others you mentioned are continuations of the same thing week in week out...

Although I'm not sure why Firefly would grab you any differently than any of the others mentioned... Firefly = enjoyable shite also right?
 
 
Bear
12:32 / 02.11.05
Oops you just mentioned arcs yourself while I was working I'm not at all with it today...
 
 
Sniv
12:45 / 02.11.05
Ganesh - oddly enough, I find myself agreeing with most of your points, although on the whole, I knda like US drama.

I think one of the most irritating aspects of Am Dram (chuckle) is it's absolute shallowness, and that's not just refering to the cookie-cutter, model-style actors/characters. I find the stories just incredibly predictable in the majority of series from across the pond, especially the sci-fi (which hurts me, being a big space-geek).

You can tell what will happen in a story from the first 10 minutes, due to the fact that US shows put no extraneous dialogue in their scripts. It frustrates me, becuase there's not really any point in watching, as it's constantly reminding me of TV's conventions and limitations (in the ways that they feel stories should be told).

Having said that, I do love Whedon's shows, and shows like the Sopranos are always great for a twisty narrative.

That said though, I also find UK shows hard to get into. It's probably from too much US TV, but UK TV - especially the drama - seems 'brittle' to me, like it could snap at any time (yes, random, but I often operate on abstract concepts, sorry), and the comedy seems flat and predictable (with a few notable exceptions, and most of them are old shows).
 
 
Spatula Clarke
13:24 / 02.11.05
I'd hoped that I'd managed to articulate that. It's what comes with being a long-running US science-fiction series. All in my first post.

Well, yes, but I don't really see any of those things as being specific to US drama (other than the US-centricity, obviously). US drama is only ubiquitous on the various Channel 4 channels and Five - it'll pop up every now and again on BBC2, but it's almost never on BBC1 or ITV. Actually, I'd say that those two channels - and they're probably still the main channels for a lot of people - concentrate almost solely on UK drama.

I also don't see the claims that US drama series are always better than their UK equivalents. There are a few celebrated shows that are considered to be better than UK attempts to do the same thing, but just as often things come across that get a bit of a slating.

And sometimes, US drama is superior to the UK equivalent. Cops shows in particular. Law & Order presents fairly standard but entertaining one-off, continuity-free storylines with a structure and pace that I find far more appealing than the horrifically convoluted UK attempts to do the same. It's bread-and-butter drama and it doesn't try and sensationalise, but it demonstrates a much better ability to tell a story than something like, say, Waking the Dead.

Ugly people? Stupid people? Lack of "sheen"? The first series of NYPD Blue and all of The Shield fit that bill. In fact, I'd say that the latter of those two pretty much bucks all the trends that you've identified. The glossy stuff gets the publicity and the decent time-slots because it's so glossy.

I'm struggling to see the real problem here, probably because I dislike all of the UK shows you picked out in your first post as having grabbed you. But then, I also dislike most of the US shows you've mentioned (with the exception of Sopranos and a couple of series of Buffy).

gridley: Network fear of continuing storylines

You're joking, surely. If anything, it's almost impossible to get away from continuity with US shows. Even the sitcoms suffer from a smothering overuse of it.
 
 
matthew.
13:26 / 02.11.05
I also have to recommend Gilmore Girls. In terms of network dramas, it is easily one of the best. The characters are involving, but not perfect. They have flaws and the show explores that. The main character (Lorelai) and a secondary character (Luke) were set up from the very beginning to fall in love, but the show took its sweet time. They have only started dating in the fifth season.

The dialogue of this show is also rapid fire. The two main characters (Lorelai, and her daughter Rory (short for Lorelai)) have these conversations, where they're dropping references every second. It's so fun to listen to them talk.

In terms of "sheen" that Ganesh commented on, Gilmore Girls has a bit of sheen. But it's not the best looking show on television. They have a small budget and a (relatively) small audience, so they are not advertised constantly in Entertainment Weekly (but they do get the odd spoiler). The actual look of the show is something just grainy.

It's "US centric", sure, but you could go a whole episode without one of the characters mentioning that they live in the US. (The creator/producer of the show does not much care for the jingoism of America, and her characters sometimes act as mouthpieces for this). American values and stereotypes are held up for ridicule on this show, but not scathing satire - just having a little fun.

It also helps that Lorelai and Rory are really easy on the eyes. Even if they weren't such luminescent actresses. Or even if they're characters weren't intelligent women. Which is something that some US dramas lack.
 
 
Ganesh
13:45 / 02.11.05
Rushing, E Randy, and will answer your post properly, but

Well, yes, but I don't really see any of those things as being specific to US drama (other than the US-centricity, obviously). US drama is only ubiquitous on the various Channel 4 channels and Five - it'll pop up every now and again on BBC2, but it's almost never on BBC1 or ITV. Actually, I'd say that those two channels - and they're probably still the main channels for a lot of people - concentrate almost solely on UK drama.

These things may not be specific to US drama, but they're common to the shows I find impossible to engage with but Xoc really likes - which are, as I say, generally long-running US dramas. I'm not trying to make blanket 'X is shite' statements about the totality of US television drama. I'm attempting to explore my own reaction ie. I'm trying to unpick an increasingly strong aversion. I suppose it's possibly that those are all just shit programmes that happen to share a country of origin and many seasons' runs, but I don't think this is solely about "quality" or me having a crappy attitude.

The attributes I've mentioned are not, I'm aware, specific to US drama generally. They are, however, common to the current crop of US drama. When I look at stuff from Europe, for example, it seems completely alien in many ways, because I'm so used to certain dramatic conventions which have now become rather predictable.
 
 
Ganesh
13:48 / 02.11.05
The dialogue of this show is also rapid fire. The two main characters (Lorelai, and her daughter Rory (short for Lorelai)) have these conversations, where they're dropping references every second. It's so fun to listen to them talk.

See, "rapid fire" dialogue is one of the things I don't really like. It's fun, certainly, but I suppose I like a little more... (*cringes*) realism in my screen conversations.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
13:58 / 02.11.05
As I say, I find the expensive 'sheen' on many US imports actually serves to distance them on an emotional level; I'm not sure why. It means that when I'm talking about a show's "quality" I have to try to be specific about what exactly I mean.

On a purely technical note, surely you couldn't possibly be talking about Buffy? That show's laughable attempts at looking like anything more than a few discarded SNL sets with a handful of Amiga SFX work was certainly part of its endearing charm, but the only sheen it gave off to me was one of feduciary desperation.

As far as Gritty Crime Drama goes, has anyone actually watched the NYPD Blue pilot recently? Just patently awful, which was quite surprising, as Milch's Deadwood is without a doubt the most exquisitely crafted Drama on TV these days. The Law And Orders and CSIs might as well be food franchises, so, you know, I'd definitely get behind anyone who claimed they were useless (especially after seeing Donofrio in Thumbsucker. How the fuck do you manage to waste him every week?).

Yes, Nina, several of those shows are bad, but just because only every third episode of Lost connects with you doesn't mean they are patently failures. There's no show with a more holistic production sense on television today, so on that level, they have yet to trip up for even a second. But maybe that's the HDTV talking, as holy shit is it the best looking show I've ever seen in my life. And Hurley, and Jin & Sun, and Sawyer, FUCKING SAWYER, and oh Mr. Eko! I fucking love that show.

But that HDTV effect is perhaps that sheen Ganesh mentions (although haven't you folks had that for like freaking ever? I'd personally connect that more with a CSI type show that is blatantly style over substance than a show like West Wing or Lost or Deadwood that is simply interested in visual consistency and creativity.

I still watch Gilmore Girls as well, but there's not enough Lane, ever, and Rory is seemingly allergic to any interesting male. And Suki and Michele are just plain throttlable. Luke is absolutely the saving grace of the show and, along with the Gilmore elders, the reason I'm still watching. But if you found other American Imports distancing, I can't imagine anything more alienating than watching a bunch of privelged smartasses running through a Norman Rockwell painting trying to convince themselves that they actually have something in their lives that they need to legitimately worry about.

I still watch the show, mind, and quite enjoy it, but I literally find myself sifting through irritating trope after irritating trope to find one sweet act of Luke's or one ball-blustering, Lucille Bluthian bon mot from Emily.

If you want a quality, smart, emotional, clever, sheen-less American drama, talk to whoever it is you need to talk to and get Veronica Mars on one of your many BBCs. It's the balls.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
15:15 / 02.11.05
when it comes to drama on the small screen, I seem to be at odds with many of my contemporaries, on Barbelith and in Real Life. [...] ER, Buffy, Firefly, 4400, Roswell, Stargate, 24, The West Wing, Smallville, etc., etc. - the same stuff that's discussed here at length - but these shows leave me utterly cold. [...]

By contrast, the stuff that's really grabbed me, that's had me distraught at missing an episode and pining for the DVDs, seems barely to rate a thread here or, if it's mentioned, seems to attract a handful of posts - a page or two, if it's by Russell T - before drifting below the horizon. Clocking Off, Queer As Folk, Bob & Rose, This Life, Buried, Ultraviolet, Bodies, No Angels, Shameless


Yeah, me too. I look at this forum and wonder what everyone else is getting that I don't/wonder if people are watching different channels to me.

(the definite exception being The Sopranos. Oh, and in times past, Twin Peaks. How do you fare with TP?)

I get excited by the idea of Smallville and watch it devotedly if it's on, but haven't seen more than a couple of eps in years. Thanks for identifying this , will have a think as to why I have these responses.

Things I'd add to your second list: GBH, The Singing Detective.

So, basically we're maybe looking at how different cultures 'do' drama, and why that appeals/doesn't.

As, rewatching QAF recently (and loving it all over again) I was struck by how glossy and beautiful it is, how fantastical some elements of the storyline are. (oddly, I remembered it from first time round as being very 'gritty', and wasn't impressed with the ending. This time round I love the ending, fits perfectly with the unreality of parts of the narrative) Elements you are critiquing here. (on the commentary, Russell T and Nichola Shindler say that in look they were very influenced by/aiming for things like Ally Mc Beal)

But it grips me totally.

Is it an expectation thing? Do you, or I, go to drama looking for some reflection of our culture? Are we looking for 'Britishness'?

(Which of course doesn't explain why I love The Sops with that obssesivness yr talking about)
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
15:20 / 02.11.05
Perhaps we're talking about what different cultures of television making choose to put into their drama?

As much of what I love about The Sopranos is that it feels so pyschologically *rich*. The characters have lives, conscious and unconscious drives, processes etc.

I think that's pretty rare in drama generally, but perhaps slightly more common in UK drama than in US, with its tradition of Mike Leigh/Alan Bleasdale-type-writing...

Though there are plenty of UK equivalents to the shows you've mentioned, nesh. Different genres perhaps, but just as formulaic: Cutting It, Peak Practice, anything starring an ex-Eastender...
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
15:29 / 02.11.05
The dialogue on Gilmore Girls is rapid fire, but not necessarily in an artificial way. The main characters are a quite intelligent mother/daughter pair, and their interactions seem very spot-on w/r/t their personalities.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:33 / 02.11.05
Ganesh listed ER, Buffy, Firefly, 4400, Roswell, Stargate, 24, The West Wing, Smallville, etc., etc. as the same stuff that's discussed here at length, and GGM added I look at this forum and wonder what everyone else is getting that I don't/wonder if people are watching different channels to me.

Unless Google is lying to me, the Barbelith thread on Roswell was posted to last in 2001. I can't find a Barbelith thread on ER, and my searches found threads on Bodies and Doctor Who instead. The thread on The 4400 was stillborn. 24, Stargate and the West Wing have had, what, one thread each over the course of the past four years - and each of those threads involves a lot of people criticising the show. I think some projection is going on here...
 
 
Cherielabombe
19:55 / 02.11.05
This is an interesting thread. You know, my mom considers it a sign that I have been 'brainwashed from living in England too long' because I now prefer the way UK television is set up to US TV.

The thing I like the most about the UK is that series' seasons run a lot shorter. In the US, the series starts at the end of September and runs 'til the end of May. Here the season is so much shorter. Dr Who seemed like a long one to me and even that started in March and ended in June. I think this allows for a lot more variety in program, thus allowing more interesting, less mainstream programs to run.

I also think this shorter season, coupled with two major public television networks that seem relatively financially sound, mean that British TV has seemingly more room to take artistic risks than American TV.

British TV also doesn't seem to be as en thrall to advertising, which again affects the quality of American TV. And American advertisers get hung up over the most ridiculous things, if you ask me. Note that HBO is often held up here as an example of 'quality American television.' HBO is a premium cable network, thus not stuck on the schedule the 'big 3 networks' run on, and also not beholden to any advertisers. Fox, UPN and the WB may not have to stick the same schedule, but they all have to answer to the advertisers.

I agree with you about the 'glossy 20-something hardbodies.' When I first moved to the UK I was struck by the fact that people - I guess I am really thinking women - like Dawn French and Ruby Wax could be successful television personalities without looking like (traditional? expected? mainstream? generic?) beauties. But men, too, do not have to fit such narrow standards of beauty as hollywood demands as they do in the UK. (Though I can't think of anyone.. help me out here.) More depressingly, I distinctly remember watching TV as a child and thinking that I could never be a successful actress - something I briefly fantasized about - because there seemed to be no call for anyone who wasn't very skinny, blonde and blue-eyed.

Now, when I go home I find myself consistently bored/annoyed with U.S. network TV. But I still find myself looking for something to watch. I don't know if it's because I was grew up there or what but I still enjoy a lot of American TV - I really enjoyed Lost and Desperate Housewives and I loved loved LOVED the Sopranos - but then I watched those on DVDs in an intense 'binge' of watching and I wonder if that makes a difference. I actually get annoyed when people in the UK hold up HBO 'as an example of what good American TV could be' because I think there is other good US TV out there. That said, some US TV is crap, and I still enjoy it. 'So bad it's good' is definitely an American specialty, IMHO!

But maybe, to some extent it is a question of taste. I have definitely noticed this with American comedies, that some people here just don't like them, and won't enjoy them even if they're well-written. Perhaps it's the same with drama?

I'm so used to the high production values I don't even notice them, BTW. I only notice the production values when they're really really low! I HAVE noticed that Brits seem to be almost protectively proud of what they perceive as low production values, but I haven't seen any British productions since I've been here that have made me think the production values are particulary bad.
 
 
Are Being Stolen By Bandits
20:57 / 02.11.05
If you want a quality, smart, emotional, clever, sheen-less American drama, talk to whoever it is you need to talk to and get Veronica Mars on one of your many BBCs. It's the balls.

The balls it very much is (with a few reservations, perhaps), but if Ganesh is looking for shows which aren't shot in glossy HDTV, with lavish beach-bound locations, packed with beautiful young people wearing beautiful clothes and living in beautiful houses (which is part of what I understood the "sheen" comments as referring to), this may not be the right show for hir, since it features all of the above, in spades.
 
 
Triplets
21:18 / 02.11.05
(Though I can't think of anyone.. help me out here.)

Terry Wogan, Lily Savage, Jonathan Ross, Graham Norton, Philip Schofield? Most certainly not 20-30 hard-bodies.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
21:33 / 02.11.05
Petey, I don't think I made a value judgement on my observations re the F&TV forum.

I'm just curious for myself why, when I share alot of tastes in some areas (see, for eg the Art/Music forums, both full of stuff I like/know enough about to talk about) as to there's a difference here.

Quick run down of first page gives 10 threads (or 9 if you want to exclude Serenity, debatable.) devoted to US drama and 3 to UK drama. I find this interesting, given the perception elsewhere (eg in the Nationalities conversation thread, among others) that this place is has more UK posters than any other.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
21:38 / 02.11.05
Likeisay, I'm entirely obsessed wutg the Sopranos, so no blanket US-drama-hating here.
 
 
Ganesh
21:56 / 02.11.05
Unless Google is lying to me, the Barbelith thread on Roswell was posted to last in 2001. I can't find a Barbelith thread on ER, and my searches found threads on Bodies and Doctor Who instead. The thread on The 4400 was stillborn. 24, Stargate and the West Wing have had, what, one thread each over the course of the past four years - and each of those threads involves a lot of people criticising the show. I think some projection is going on here...

Projection how? You reckon when I say certain programmes are discussed at length on Barbelith I'm projecting the fact that I'm discussing them at length? In my head?

I suspect by 'projection' you mean 'exaggeration' or 'misperception' or even 'untruth'.

I feel I'm being backed into the position of defending a general statement regarding my assertion that the shows I named are, generally speaking, discussed at much greater length than the shows I myself like. Since I was talking generalities rather than specifics, it wasn't my intention to spend a lot of time searching and counting replies. Perhaps some kind person with a lot more time on his/her hands could comb through the various shows mentioned, ennumerating the number of replies to each one, and come up with a sort of summary of what's discussed at length here. I strongly suspect there's more by way of column inches on Buffy than on Bodies, for example. Doctor Who - the nearest we have to a long-running serial - would likely up the average but, even taking that into account, I believe US drama is discussed at length (ie. more replies, more pages) more than its UK counterpart.

Thankyou.
 
  

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