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What is a 'warrior'?

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Less searchable M0rd4nt

14:02 / 28.10.05

I came across a quote on a page of 'heathen humor', and it got me thinking.

The first part seems okay to me: Understand that there are FEW warriors. Claiming to be a warrior doesn't make it so. Wanting to be a warrior doesn't make it so.

Yup yup, all well and good. But then we get to: If you can't name a current or former Commanding Officer that will confirm that you actually ARE a warrior, drop the pretensions.

At which point something inside me goes Nnnnngh. I'd certainly agree that we could all do with fewer plastic 'warriors' about the place (no, starting flamewars on Livejournal doesn't make you a warrior, and neither does going paintballing/playing Counterstrike/running a Fighter Ranger Elf in AD&D). But... the only possible expression of the warrior archtype in a person's spiritual life is to sign up for the military of their country? Regardless of whether the government running that military has anything resembling the same ideals as our theoretical warrior, regardless of what orders ze may have to follow? That's it?

The person writing the above was an American Asatrur, and obviously would have a particular worldview and set of spiritual beliefs informing hir notion of what constitues a warrior. I'd be interested to hear alternative perspectives to this one.

I'd also like to know why a person would be drawn to identify with this archetype in a serious way. I still have a pretty negative view of it myself, with the word conjouring up images of mindless violence, might making right, oppression by superior strength, and generally being a bit of an arsehole. I get that this is a reflection of my own prejudices and lack of understanding, and I'm trying to rectify that. What are the positive contributions that a person working with this archetype can make to hir community? How does warriorness benefit others?

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

14:22 / 28.10.05

It's all down to definition really.

What's meant by 'warrior'?

Here's a starter : a warrior is one who maintains detachment and presence in all circumstances at all times, adhering to the middle way, but not too much (because then it wouldn't be). A warrior is sincere and humble, in the most I Ching sense of those terms, and lives, to quote Castaneda, with death as their chief advisor, embracing completely and with total acceptance their mortality and impending cessation. The warrior has no time. The 'non-warrior' has bags of the stuff, time to kill, in fact.

The 'war' is the internal jihad, a spiritual struggle if you must - the second guessing and defeat of ego by the embodiment of wu wei, and maintenance of emptiness, pu, the uncarved block, thus allowing the expression of the divine through zero resistance, intent being pure through its hollowness, and free of egoic concern which otherwise fills it.

Whew.

Any additions?

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

14:24 / 28.10.05

btw MC, your link to heathen humour is circular, linking back to this thread.

Or is that a joke I don't get?

Oh no! I'm on Beadle's About!

Less searchable M0rd4nt

14:25 / 28.10.05

(Nah, I screwed up the link--fix is in the queue.)

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

14:34 / 28.10.05

Just to add, I find the term to be basically interchangeable with 'Sage' in Daoism...if that wasn't obvious.

14:34 / 28.10.05

I think it's about knowing when it is necessary to raise the sword to the various threatening, dangerous, troublesome and just plain wrong things that we can and will encounter in our lives. It's not about mindless violence and oppression of the weak by the strong, it's more about being prepared to fight tooth and nail for what you know in your heart to be right. Sometimes compromises and excuses, reasoning and empathy won't cut it and you need to swing further to the pillar of severity to sort out a situation.

To my mind, a Warrior is a person who meets life with a certain attitude, and it's an attitude that is forged through war, you're not a warrior unless you've fought like one. Not necessarily in your country's military. For instance, a journalist who faces down physical danger and career ostracism in order to publish a story that s/he believes in, is a warrior. There are any different examples of warrior spirit, but you can't fake it. It's not a joke, you can't be an honourary warrior. You either are or you're not.

I think it's about cultivating something inside of you that can meet challenges with steel and determination. Do you have it in you to literally pick up a sword and defend the people and principles that you care about, if you found yourself in a position where you had to? Are you capable of fighting off an attacker, not just physically, but mentally and in your heart? I think this sort of thing is central to the warrior mysteries.

14:48 / 28.10.05

Ah, hardcore American Asatru. You gotta love 'em.

I think there may be multiple legitimate approaches to warriorhood... joining the military being probably the most straightforward route. Some types of martial arts and/or weapons training would qualify you in the same way.

However, does the ability do kick someone's ass necessarily make one a warrior? What about the seasoning effect of experience? Are you a warrior if you've never been in an actual war?

Or, to take the term less literally - what about the ability to kick ass in a metaphorical sense? Can a determined marathon runner be considered a warrior? What about a daring and forthright journalist who champions the truth in the face of corrupt politics? Some people use "warrior" to describe people like cancer survivors or single mothers - is that legitimate? What about those who fight battles against the self, or against poverty or oppression? What about doctors who battle disease, or teachers who struggle against ignorance?

Then there's a whole slew of people in the charismatic Christain movement who describe themselves as "spirit warriors" - a shamanic term if I've ever heard one. What about spiritual warfare, or magical combat, or ghost hunting, or confrontation on the astral? What does "warrior" mean in a mystical sense?

(This is a very timely thread, MC...)

14:49 / 28.10.05

Holy crap, I crossed brains with Gypsy.

14:53 / 28.10.05

My brain swap machine is finally operational... Soon I will be able to control all of you at the flick of a switch... My science people will be dining like kings tonight!

Less searchable M0rd4nt

15:25 / 28.10.05

What about spiritual warfare, or magical combat, or ghost hunting, or confrontation on the astral? What does "warrior" mean in a mystical sense?

Hmmm. I'm always wary of concepts like this. Not because it's impossible, wrong or unnecessary to use combatative magical techniques, but because my patience for people whose practice consists mostly or wholly of grandiose conflicts on the astral plane, or battling legions of malicious psychic attackers (90% of whom they'll never even have met) is a little thin.

15:44 / 28.10.05

Well, yes. Agreed. My husband - a son of charismatic Xtians - has commented that the probable reason Christain "spirit warriors" always perceive other spiritual entities as hostile is because they charge in swinging the astral equivalent of sledgehammers at everything that moves. Makes the natives a bit defensive.

16:56 / 28.10.05

It sounds like you're all talking about conflict of one type or another. And to me, personally, it seems that a "warrior" is someone comfortable in being in conflict - conflict with another person or persons, or situation, or whathaveyou. Comfortable would mean, i guess, able to keep a level head, to respond to situations appropriately and not react to them out of fear. That could mean killing a mugger, or talking someone out of pulling a knife in a bar, or threatening/intimidating someone enough to not want to enter into the conflict to begin with. Appropriateness.

17:39 / 28.10.05

I'd personally put Money $hot and GL's first posts together and say that that about sums up exactly what I would define a Warrior as.

Be it right or wrong, I think a Warrior is someone that fights for what they believe in, with a lot of persistence and the determination not to give in, no matter what they're faced with. Someone who knows that they could lose a hell of a lot of things to get what they want, and even if they do lose those things they get back on their feet and carry on with just as much resolve.

19:31 / 28.10.05

To me, a warrior is one who has the will and the skills to fight for whatever it is s/he wants, regardless of "cause" or actual phisical confrontation. A warrior is one who is fearless and has accepted that death is inevitable without regrets. One can be a soldier and not be a warrior, one can be a warrior and not have risen hir hand against another once in hir lifetime. There are spiritual warriors, martial artists, etc. Marathonists, and anyone who seeks to test the limits of one's body and mind is more of a monk than a warrior to me, for they are looking for enlightment and perfection (and sometimes even hallucinate and have other "mystical epifanies"), but they are not warroir in the sense they are not "fighting".

I also believe that the Warrior archetype has serious limitation, specially morality-wise. A warrior, as Niezsche would put it, is one who takes what s/he wants, with little or no regard for others. Historically speaking, those who call them selves "warriors" are also rapists, looters, and tirants.

In the end, the "warrior" achetype is supposed to be, in my (not so) humble opinion, just a stepstone before the really good archetype we should aspire to, the one the world reaaly need nowadays: the "hero" archetype, which is a much more evolved version of the warrior (and by "hero|" I mean the modern "comic-book/superman/batman/wonderwoman/etc definition, not the ancient Greek/Hindu/Eastern definition, which is just a warrior who is victorious). What's the difference? A warrior chooses violence, a hero accepts it; a warrior fights for hirself alone, a hero, for others (a hero can fight for hirself, but never at the expense of others), a warrior has enemies to overcome, a hero has chalenges; a warrior is self-absorbed, a hero is enlightened, etc, etc, etc

Unconditional Love

21:45 / 28.10.05

imo >

A warrior lives to protect others from injustice
A warrior puts the lives of others before there own
A warrior shows mecry and compassion to those they call an enemy for the time they fight them, remembering enemies can become friends.
A warrior will never make the first attack, even if it would cost them there life.
A warrior serves that which is greater than them, a warrior is a servant.
A warrior lives to defend and empower the weak.
A warrior leads by example and not through force.
A warrior is patient, aware, wise, well tempered, well mannered.
A warrior abhors violence and force of any kind and regrets having to use either.
A warrior lives every moment to its full, knowing death may come in any moment.
A warrior is a defender of the wronged and down trodden.

10:05 / 01.11.05

Nephilin, you just described what I call "hero". A warrior is just a guy who uses violence to take what he wants from others...

10:21 / 01.11.05

Nephilin, you just described what I call "hero". A warrior is just a guy who uses violence to take what he wants from others...

Based on a definition that you've just made up and has no validity outside of your personal biases and choice of terminology.

11:46 / 01.11.05

"A warrior is just a guy who uses violence to take what he wants from others... "

What you've described Dead Megatron sounds more like a warmonger, rather than a warrior, to me.

Here, maybe a little lesson on Bushido is in order. It may not be the only definition of "warrior" and the ways thereof, but it has been around for quite a while.

Another system that has a definition of warrior that I like is Castenada's version of a Toltec Warrior.

These two perspectives are closer to what that I think constitutes a warrior.

12:10 / 01.11.05

I'd also add the concept of the Warriors initiation in Santeria, and the idea of initiation as a 'warrior of the tribe' that you find in various cultures, and what that means in relation to society and how you interact with it.

I see the warrior mysteries encapsulating the various qualities described above, not just a guy who picks fights. Coming up with a completely arbitrary dichotomy between the term "warrior" and the term "hero" doesnt really seem to add much for me. Why not talk about how a "warrior" differs from a "ranger" or a "paladin" while you're about it?

Unconditional Love

15:19 / 01.11.05

i think i may well have had a sort of samurai jedi in mind at the time, the two being very similar, also my own notions of eco warriors and hippy weekend tai chi warriors in general, the gentlemen warrior or fairy tale knight i suppose. i think what your describing is the difference between a soldier and a warrior, especially portrayed in that recent tom cruise movie, the end scene.

But saying that soldiers can be warriors, and heros can be teachers, cleaners and bus drivers.

The last samurai that was it.

I think what i am describing is for me closer too the idea of a gentle man who fights as a last recourse and up holds what he sees as noble values, and lives in service too those values and the people he shares them with.

13:38 / 02.11.05

Coming up with a completely arbitrary dichotomy between the term "warrior" and the term "hero" doesnt really seem to add much for me. Why not talk about how a "warrior" differs from a "ranger" or a "paladin" while you're about it?

Because that would not be a serious definition, just a D&D Q&A. And it is not a dichotomy, at least not exactly. One is the evolution of the other. Every hero is a warrior, but not every warrior is a hero. The term "warmonger" is not precise because one doesn't need to be a warrior to forment a war in their own interst (Pres. Bush, anyone?)

17:38 / 02.11.05

This works for me...

From http://www.shambhala.com/html/catalog/items/ISBN/1-59030-041-6.cfm

Shambhala: The Sacred Path of the Warrior
By Chogyam Trungpa

"In this best-selling guide to enlightened living, Chögyam Trungpa offers an inspiring vision for our time, modeled on the universal archetypal symbol of the peaceful warrior. In ancient times, the warrior learned to master the challenges of life, both on and off the battlefield. He acquired a sense of courage and power—not through violence or aggression, but through gentleness, courage, and self-knowledge. With this book the warrior's path is opened to contemporary men and women in search of self-mastery and greater fulfillment. Interpreting the warrior's journey in contemporary terms, Trungpa shows that in discovering the basic goodness of human life, the warrior learns to radiate that goodness out into the world for the peace and sanity of others. The Shambhala teachings—named for the legendary Himalayan Kingdom where prosperity and happiness reign—point to the potential for enlightened conduct that exists within every human being."

nyarlathotep's shoe horn

18:15 / 03.11.05

"hero with a thousand faces" by Joseph Campbell
and
"Bushido: The Way of the Samurai" by Tsunetomo Yamamoto

some interesting titbits...

warriors aren't brawlers. warriors aren't yahoos. warriors have their own code. sometimes warriors are heroes, but not necessarily.

a warrior is a master of martial arts, using the body, mind and spirit in the accomplishment of wielding weapons (including fist) in the defense of... something (land, ideals, maidens in distress, etc)

security guards are not warriors (but, oh, the pretense)
military personnel are not warriors (though they can be)
police aren't warriors (but think they are)

are Iraqi "insurgents?"

that's my idealised two bits.
enjoy fwiw
tenix

01:18 / 07.12.05

I think the warrior can have a positive and a negative aspect. There is the defender who takes up the sword when needed to battle evil, the jedi, the typical solemn hero from action flicks. And then there is the attacker who uses his might to take what he wants when he wants it and lays waste to innocents. The warrior is a very powerful archetype no matter which way you take it.

For an example of the warrior, look at Nietzsche's master morality. The master can be seen as good or bad depending on your view of the situation, but I think he can be accuratly described as a warrior.

02:50 / 07.12.05

A warrior is someone who shoots at the walls of heartache.

11:38 / 07.12.05

One addition to Money $hot, who summed up the Asian concept of a warrior rather well:

Although military service probably isn't the best way to become a warrior, the fight can't take place on a spiritual or mental plane only. From my experience physical training in the art of war is necessary, too. Martial Arts are a good way, as they exercise the body and the mind - and if you find a good school, sooner or later you'll be confronted with some of your innermost fears (of being hurt, of failure, of losing control etc.), so the fight is taking place on all planes.

The disaster of losing a physical combat is much different from losing an argument e.g., as in the former case I think some atavistic mechanisms are coming to life again, telling us that failure means death.

I don't think any mental training could replace such physical experience.

nyarlathotep's shoe horn

17:14 / 07.12.05

an illustration from "House of Chains" by Steven Erikson:

Karsa Orlong is like a 15' tall klingon - more hardcore than any warrior character I've read/seen.

he's being chased by a pack of wolves (like a werewolf, but the person turns into a pack of 12 of them, instead of one) through the snow in the mountains.

four wolves race ahead, waiting for him to arrive. He anticipates their attack from behind. Suddenly, they leap ahead of him, and all 12 face him. He's confused, stands steady, his sword raised.

the werewolfpack addresses him, states that it's been chasing him for 3 nights and 4 days. The werewolfpack (d'ivers they're called)'s haunches are wobbly. It leaves, too weakened from the chase to face a warrior who's steeled for battle.

once the d'ivers leaves, Karsa Orlong collapses. He was more spent than the d'ivers. His force of will to remain standing is what defeated his opponent, without loss of life.

A warrior, among other things, keeps fear in perspective/check.

ta
tenix

21:18 / 07.12.05

A warrior is someone who shoots at the walls of heartache.

That was poetic, but a little lean. Any meat to add to the bones of that idea?

I'm fairly sure we won't pin down exactly what a warrior is, but the interplay and contention of the subject certainly enlivens what it might be.

I'm on the bushido bandwagon, with a flavor of Gypsy's position thrown in. Living by a code, defending yourself, martially or not, and defending something bigger than you, an idea, point of view, belief, whatever. For me, a warrior path is a path of striving, reaching for some kind of goal. It is not, or does not have to be, simply violence for it's own sake.

From a magical perspective, I try to use martial-arts training to enliven my own workings and visualizations. I try to follow a warrior path in that respect, follow a code that encompasses everything from training, to writing. Do I call myself a warrior? I don't think I'm allowed to. It seems like it's a title others give to you.

at the scarwash

22:36 / 07.12.05

On the Bushido tip, I think that a consideration of loyalty is very important. The archetypal warrior is impressive to me, whether s/he happens to be Musashi, Lancelot, one of the 108 Outlaws of the Marsh or whatever, because of an intense and "to-the-death" sense of loyalty or vassalage (vassladom? Hood?). Of course in many cases, this results in blind obedience, or obedience beyond the bounds of individual conscience. But this is such an integral part of what I think of when I think about the aspects of the Warrior that I try to find in my own (unheroic) life.

05:46 / 08.12.05

I don't think there are many people alive who could really call themselves a warrior. For me it's more about understanding the archetype and being able to wear that mask from time to time.

nyarlathotep's shoe horn

15:06 / 08.12.05

in the Bushido vein (provided I recall this halfway correctly),

I think the warrior is also advised to steer his/her patron away from vices, instead of confronting them, or causing them to lose face.

there is a great responsibility for the warrior to remain steadfast, the solid grounding in a storm of panic.

and somewhere in all this, I think the Warrior has most to do with a particular embodiment of the force of will.

will power.

although, it certainly isn't limited to warriors, it seems to me that it defines them moreso than others.

maybe not magicians... maybe... maybe not...
(above wishy-washiness proof tenix ain't wearing his warrior hat)

ta
tenix

14:41 / 12.12.05

Nephilin, you just described what I call "hero". A warrior is just a guy who uses violence to take what he wants from others

I wonder about Achilles as a warrior archetype in this context. Someone who deliberately dedicated himself to war over peace - throughout the Iliad he's contrasted to Hector, who has a life in Troy that he's fighting to defend, unlike Achilles, who has no ties of kinship and is fighting for the sake of it (and for the glory). He's a warrior to the extent that he can't be incorporated into a community at peace.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

18:40 / 12.12.05

A warrior is someone who shoots at the walls of heartache.

That was poetic, but a little lean. Any meat to add to the bones of that idea?

You will not insult Pat Benetar by implying her lyrics are "a little lean". She died for all our sins. In an 80's pop kinda way, I mean.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

18:42 / 12.12.05

But seriously, a working definition of "warrior" could easily be simply "one who is willing to use conflict and/or simple aggression to achieve something".

12:00 / 13.12.05

/Pace/ wrestling supremo Gypsy, I feel the idea of the "warrior" does more harm than good for most western occultists. AFAICT it tends to be an excuse for boorishness and machismo and seems to be a fairly damaging to the people involved, reinforcing self-regard to the point of arrogance. We are not Yoruba tribesmen ("warriors" in the occult are always men, aren't they?), we are not born into a culture where being a warrior has connotations of social responsibility. It always seems a bit heavy metal to me, frankly.

However I would distinguish between seeking to be a warrior and being a martial artist -- note the use of the word "artist" in that phrase. My four year old just got his first belt in karate and I'm very proud of his achievement. But he isn't trying to be a "warrior".

See also: using swords and knives in ritual magic. Sorry, just looks like macho posturing to me.

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