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Saint Anselm, one of the creators of the ontological argument

 
  

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matthew.
04:41 / 23.10.05
So, I wrote this paper for a philosophy class about St.Anselm (got an A+ on it, no big whoop), and I'd thought I'd share his argument with you. (I wasn't sure whether to put this in Temple or here, but I choose here because it feels like philosophy more than religion).

Anselm's arguments are so deceptively simple, it's beautiful. I'll give you Wikipedia's entry on it:
1) God is the greatest possible being and thus possesses all perfections.
2) Existence is a perfection.
3) God exists.

Isn't that nice? Here's a fuller explanation of it (written by me)

Firstly, to understand Anselm’s ontological argument, one must understand the basic assumption. In most philosophical works, the author puts forth an assumption and attempts to either prove it, or refute it. In Anselm’s Proslogion, he suggests that the Fool is a fool because he does two things. First, he understands what is God, that is to say, he has an understanding of the concept of God. The second idea the Fool has is that he cannot believe that God exists. Anselm explains that he will prove that the two ideas are contradictory.

The author understands that to argue something in philosophy, one must first define exactly what one is arguing. Anselm writes to God that “[You] are something than which nothing greater can be thought” . In other words, Anselm defines God as a being than which nothing greater can be conceived . Nothing can possibly be greater than God, because by definition God is the greatest thing that can possibly be conceived.

Anselm starts by using the analogy of a painter. He explains that the painter thinks in advance of what he is going to paint. He has the painting in his understanding. Then he paints whatever he thought of in advance. Anselm writes that even the fool can agree that the actual painting in reality is greater than the understanding of the painting. Therefore, Anselm argues, whatever we have in understanding and in reality, the one that is greater is the one that is in reality. In other words, actual existence is better than understanding.

This is where Anselm makes his main logical move. God is the greatest thing conceivable, and it is agreed that existing in reality is greater than existing in the mind, then God must exist in both the mind and in reality. Another way of saying it is God is the greatest thing, and if it is greater to exist in reality, God must exist because he is the greatest thing.

Anselm proves this by using what’s known as reductio ad absurdum logic. In this line of reasoning, one proves the absurdity of the antithesis of one’s view. Anselm’s reasoning is as follows: either God exists or God does not exist. We assume that God does not exist (which is the antithesis of Anselm’s argument). If God does not exist (but exists only as an understanding), then that being which nothing greater which can be conceived, is a being which a greater being can be conceived. This is a logical impossibility, which we have already proven, therefore, the proposition “God does not exist” is incorrect, and therefore, God does indeed exist, according to Anselm.

Another way of thinking of Anselm’s ontological argument is the idea of perfections. Qualities such as power or beauty are perfections, spoken of in terms of varying degrees. In terms of intelligence, what is more powerful is more perfect, in terms of beauty, what is more beautiful is more perfect. Anselm is trying to create absolute standards. Anselm defines God as the perfect being. This means that He has all the perfections to the greatest conceivable degree. Anselm argues that if someone were ever to conceive of some greater degree of perfection than he or she previously conceived of, then they must regard God as having that greater degree of perfection. According to Anselm, this proves that God exists, since claiming that God is only imaginary entails a logical contradiction, because existing is better than imagining. If the idea of God is as a being that is only in understanding, it is not the concept of the greatest because existing is the greatest degree of perfection in terms of existing. A being that did not exist would not be the greatest conceivable thing, which is not perfect.

Isn't that nice, too? Isn't that so... perfect (pardon the pun).

But here's where it gets interesting. Any good philosopher can point out the HUGE loopholes in his argument. But, I'm going to offer you a really nice criticism of Anselm; I'm going to give you Gasking's proof. It's frigging awesome.

1. The creation of the world is the most marvelous achievement imaginable.
2. The merit of an achievement is the product of (a) its intrinsic quality, and (b) the ability of its creator.
3. The greater the disability (or handicap) of the creator, the more impressive the achievement.
4. The most formidable handicap for a creator would be non-existence.
5. Therefore if we suppose that the universe is the product of an existent creator we can conceive a greater being — namely, one who created everything while not existing.
6. Therefore God does not exist.

Ohmigod, that's awesome. Now, see, this is the reason why I'm agnostic; there's so much good "evidence" from both sides.

Does anybody else know of any other ontological arguments? Or, better yet, take apart Anselm's, or Gasking's?
 
 
*
07:48 / 23.10.05
Anselm writes that even the fool can agree that the actual painting in reality is greater than the understanding of the painting.

This isn't exactly on-topic, but as a person who's really lousy at philosophy I'd like to point out how different this is from Platonic thought, which holds that the ideal is necessarily more perfect than the materialisation of the ideal. What does that signify, since Platonism shapes so much of early Christian thought? (Er, IIRC.)

I had never seen the Gasking proof before. It's very interesting what he's doing there. It looks to me like Gasking's proof was set up to show how Anselm's reasoning can be used in exactly the opposite way. Gasking is making just exactly the same sort of mistake Anselm did (probably deliberately, by way of demonstration). I suppose if I conceived of a being called a snarglehargutt, one of the properties of which is to exist, then the snarglehargutt must exist because if it does not exist, this is a logical fallacy? Seems like the same reasoning...

Thanks for this; your enthusiasm here is really contagious.
 
 
matthew.
13:58 / 23.10.05
For someone who says they are lousy at philosophy, you just pointed out the major error in Anselm's thinking.

Another error I found, but is somewhat elementary, why is existance a binary attribute. If God is necessarily the most perfect being, than perhaps God is above the binary attribute of existance/non-existance. Maybe that attribute reads more like a spectrum than a 1 or 0 type of thing.

Also, (and this is simply devil's advocate), why is God perfect? Does God have no flaws whatsoever?
Somewhat off-topic, but, if God has the capacity to love us with all His heart, then why doesn't he have the capacity for hate? Or irrational anger? Does God get pissed off? Because if He does, then he's not perfect, is he?

Another thing that's always itched me about God's so-called perfection... if God and Jesus are one and the same, and if Jesus suffered a moment of doubt on the cross, then doesn't that mean that God is also capable of doubt. If God exists out of time, one could reasonably say that a moment for God could be equal to trillions of years in our slow-time. So His moment of doubt could be the lifetime of the human race. You could then say that his moment of doubt occured with the creation of humans in His image.

But this is all conjecture. This is all simply poking holes in Anselm's arguments. I love this stuff. If I didn't have to go to work right away, I'd also post on defending Anselm. I think that's the beauty of Anselm's simplicity, because for every hole I poke, someone could easily plug it right back up.
 
 
*
16:27 / 23.10.05
Well, by the same token, why is anger a flaw? Jesus got angry and whipped the Pharisees, even though he seems to think anger is a flaw; his dad gets angry and then floods everything or turns people into pillars of salt all the damn time. In fact, I remember that one bit where God says he's going to destroy all the people in the city if ten righteous people can't be found, and one of his earthly buddies talks him down to one in stages— if he's perfect, then the first proposal was perfect, and if the first proposal was perfect he should have never been moved from it. Or if he was moved from it, it wasn't perfect, so he shouldn't have proposed it in the first place. The alternative is that God knew he'd go down to one, and he lied when he said he would destroy the city if ten weren't found, because the real limit was one. Does this sound like a just and perfect God?

It's clear to me that the God of the Hebrew books is a somewhat different guy from the God of Jesus and co. And I think the "perfect God," all knowing and all wise as well as all powerful, comes from the early Christians, who interpreted it out of the sayings and scriptures of Jesus, who seems to have related to a God-as-he-ought-to-be.

But this is all somewhat besides the point, which is the arguments of Anselm and those influenced by him, about which I don't have much more to say. I think your idea of existence not being a binary value is pretty intriguing; I hadn't thought of it in quite those terms before. We could think of it as a probability with range 0-1. Perhaps God is in a Schroedinger's cat conundrum. He exists if (enough people believe in him, one or more kaos magikians reach the point of ultimate illumination and become him, it's a Tuesday by celestial time, etc.) and does not exist if those circumstances, which are not yet observable, do not obtain. Until those circumstances become observable, God is a waveform. Alternatively we could describe different kinds of existence (existence as a probability waveform being one).
 
 
matthew.
23:58 / 23.10.05
Brilliant. The Schroedinger's Cat Box. I hadn't thought of that at all.

I find it intriguing that you suggested the existance-spectrum as defined by God's existance at one end and nonexistance at the other. I was thinking, alternatively, all things on the spectrum, not God by Himself. I never thought of that before. I was doing something I end up doing quite often, I lumped God in with the rest of the tangible and knowable (existing) universe. Not that He was on the same end as us, just that He could be on the same spectrum.
 
 
astrojax69
04:13 / 24.10.05
the initial premise in the ontological argument is flawed, isn't it? that the most perfect thing must necessarily exist - the fool answers that the actual picture is better, and then we listen to the fool..? [one minute he's a fool, the next sage..?]

surely the best answer to the question asked of the fool is: i don't know; you say it is better to exist, but i don't know. if something exists it is subject to all those things commensurate with existence, including the potential for non-existence.

now, if god is perfect then s/he could realise any potential s/he has and so *not* exist (while simultaneously existing) this is an absurdity and shows not that god exists or otherwise, but that the argument is flawed.

i await anselm's answer to the question as to why existence is preferable and better (for whom?) than its antithesis. never liked the ontological argument.
 
 
werwolf
06:16 / 24.10.05
excuse me... i have a question.

i always thought of god (or theological theory) as a deductively structured concept. so... doesn't that mean that all theories that either try to prove or disprove god's existence must (at some point) lead themselves ad absurdum or at least get stuck in a rut?

forgive my ignorance, but i am curious.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:37 / 24.10.05
Well, either I'm thick or Saint Anselm's argument doesn't make a lick of sense. And it would definitely be 'better' to believe it's Anselm's fault rather than mine. Hey, it works!
 
 
Sax
10:53 / 24.10.05
What if it's a shit painting?
 
 
Cat Chant
10:57 / 24.10.05
Sax - I think that depends on whether Anselm's 'greater' means 'bigger' or 'better'. I might have a beautiful picture in my head, which I can't execute due to lack of technical skills, so then the real painting isn't as good as the painting in my head. On the other hand, the real painting contains not only my original plan for it, but also everybody else's readings of it ever for the rest of time, and is therefore an awful lot bigger than the one in my head.

Anselm is a deconstructionist before his time!
 
 
Sax
11:09 / 24.10.05
Good point.
 
 
matthew.
13:49 / 24.10.05
A shit painting - oh that's funny *sighs*

Okay, back to work here.

astrojax: Your observation about the flaw of existance versus nonexistance is, from what I've learned, the main loophole in Anselm's argument. It's the biggest hole right there. Anselm sees nonexistance as limited, that is to say, with existance, there is always the possibility of nonexistance, but with nonexistance, you could never exist. That's why I proposed existance-nonexistance as a spectrum, which you sort of caught on to...

werwolf: Where did you hear that? I think that's interesting, but a flawed statement. If we can't argue for the existance or nonexistance of God, then why believe in God? He then exists in our minds in a Schroedinger's Cat box, then, neither existing ('cause we can't prove) nor fictitious ('cause we can't prove that he does indeed exist) That is my inherant problem with faith; there is no definitive answer to anything. But on the other hand, and people can tell, it's my favorite part of faith. I could argue each side forever, never choosing one. I retain that even the possbility of a deity is enough to argue for the existance of that deity.

Lady of the Ashes: very clever, my friend. Very sly.

Deva/Sax: interesting that you comment on the painting. Alot of people don't seem to like the analogy of the painting. It seems to me that when Anselm was writing, art was didactic generally. That is, it taught a lesson about Biblical history. (I'm not art historian, so do not attack me; I'll plead ignorance) So I do not think that the viewers' intrepretation was factored in. Appreciators of art were passive people. So really, I think Anselm means simply a better painting. For Wikipedia's article on art during this time, see here. (I love Wikipedia)
 
 
Quantum
18:36 / 25.10.05
Existence is not a predicate. Bad one Anselm!
 
 
Mirror
19:46 / 25.10.05
Just for fun, a few years ago in a philosophy of religion class I offered the following corellary to Anselm:



  1. From Anselm, God necessarily exists

  2. The universe exists

  3. The universe either exists as part of God, or external to God

  4. According to Anselm, God is perfect and cannot be incomplete, so the universe must be part of God

  5. Since the universe must necessarily be part of God and (1) God has no choice as to whether the universe exists or not

  6. Therefore, the notion of God exercising will to create the universe is invalid, because God could not exist without the universe. Or, the universe doesn't exist.


 
 
*
23:01 / 25.10.05
Explain why God has no choice about whether the universe exists?
 
 
Spaniel
23:16 / 25.10.05
I'm not sure 6 follows either.
 
 
Mirror
00:45 / 26.10.05
Well, God without the universe is surely less perfect than God with the universe, no? As God cannot be imperfect, then God's sort of stuck with the universe. I *think* that it follows from this that God cannot create, but can only be. Perhaps I'm missing a step.

God would also be more perfect with pink unicorns dancing down the streets, of course. But that's just my opinion.
 
 
matthew.
01:05 / 26.10.05
Why can't God be a part of the universe and not the other way around? I think there's a fundamental faulty assumption about the argument. To use an analogy: the author is still part of his own novel, whether he likes it or not.
 
 
*
01:34 / 26.10.05
Mirror, I think you've left out some key steps in your reasoning which make it very difficult to follow, for one who sucks at philosophy. Why can't the universe be a part of God because God wills it? and God wills it because obviously, according to God's reckoning, that is the more perfect state? and God wills the universe to be because God wills that part of hirself should be the universe? That doesn't mean that there was ever a God without the universe, because that assumption rests wholly on our flawed understanding of time and sequential events and causality. Maybe.
 
 
matthew.
15:38 / 26.10.05
Yes, flawed understanding of time and causality.

Also, the correlation between the appearance of the universe and the existance of God does not mean causation.

Correlation does not equal causation
 
 
Mirror
16:09 / 26.10.05
Also, the correlation between the appearance of the universe and the existance of God does not mean causation.

I'm not speaking about correlation or causation here - I'm speaking about Anselm's definition of a perfect God, which he describes as "lacking nothing."

My point is simply that, given such a definition of God, how could God "will" anything? If God cannot exist without the universe, as Anselm's argument would imply, then why give God any credit? God is no more responsible for the existence of the universe than s/he/it is for its own existence.

If God "just exists" then the universe "just exists" as well.
 
 
Quantum
16:27 / 26.10.05
"lacking nothing."

Including the capacity for evil, a huge beard, the desire to deceive Man and the ability to annihilate Himself? The Ontological argument has never held much water for me, despite it's attractive boot-strappiness of getting something from nothing.

My second favourite rejection (after 'Existence is not a predicate') is applying the same argument to anything and getting the same result. Pink Marshmallow Unicorns the size of Wales are perfect, it's more perfect to exist than not exist, therefore they exist.
 
 
Quantum
16:38 / 26.10.05
Nothing is perfect.
It's more perfect to exist than not to exist.
Therefore,
Nothing Exists.


Shows clearly how silly it is.
 
 
Mirror
16:42 / 26.10.05
Well, it doesn't really work for anything but God because one isn't claiming that one of the properties of giant pink unicorns is perfection. Anselm is basically saying, "perfect things necessarily exist, and God is a perfect thing."
 
 
Mirror
16:54 / 26.10.05
one isn't claiming that one of the properties of giant pink unicorns is perfection

Oops... you were, indeed, claiming that. I agree.
 
 
matthew.
02:29 / 27.10.05
It seems that the posters here mostly disagree with Anselm on very fundamental levels.

But a little Frenchman by the name of Descartes liked the argument. So much, that he made his own version.

"Whatever method of proof I use, I am always brought back to the fact that it is only what I clearly and distinctly perceive that completely convinces me. Some of the things I clearly and distinctly perceive are obvious to everyone, while others are discovered only by those who look more closely and investigate more carefully; but once they have been discovered, the latter are judged to be just as certain as the former. In the case of a right-angled triangle, for example, the fact that the square on the hypotenuse is equal to the square on the other two sides is not so readily apparent as the fact that the hypotenuse subtends the largest angle; but once one has seen it, one believes it just as strongly. But as regards God, if I were not overwhelmed by philosophical prejudices, and if the images of things perceived by the senses did not besiege my thought on every side, I would certainly acknowledge him sooner and more easily than anything else. For what is more manifest than the fact that the supreme being exists, or that God, to whose essence alone existence belongs, exists?"

Or,
1. Whatever I clearly and distinctly perceive to be contained in the idea of something is true of that thing.
2. I clearly and distinctly perceive that necessary existence is contained in the idea of God.
3. Therefore, God exists.

So, my question to all the posters is:
Can you fix or formulate a better ontological argument? I admit to being a poor philosopher, so I can't really create my own. Can anybody else? I'm very interested to see what people can come up with.
 
 
werwolf
06:54 / 27.10.05
[quote matt - man, mystery, meatball] werwolf: Where did you hear that? I think that's interesting, but a flawed statement. [/quote]

i think to recall that we discussed this in our philosophy classes at school - in what would be high school in the usa. we were discussing logic and various ways of logical arguments and structures, so obviously we also discussed inductive and deductive methods. i believe to remember that our teacher (whom i hold in high regard, but who might have been wrong) said that mankind knows of only 2 deductive sciences: mathematics and theology. also, some years later i heard the same thing at university while sitting through an algebra course.

[quote matt - man, mystery, meatball] If we can't argue for the existance or nonexistance of God, then why believe in God? [/quote]

before i dive into that let me just say that i have no clue about philosophy other than what my private reading has brought forth. so i am very much looking forward to being taught.

first of all: i never said that we CANNOT argue about it, but i was trying to imply that there is no absolute argument, either in favor or against the existence of god or its nonexistance. the existance or nonexistance of god is a dogmatic principle. so, as long as someone sticks to the dogma, he/she/it can argue whatever he/she/it wants - it just has to be in line with the dogmatic principles of that particular dogma. and anybody moving outside of that dogma can bring any number of reasons against that dogma, which all will be true and fine, but will really not change anything about the dogma itself... phew, so many times 'dogma'.
well, i guess you get what i'm trying to say. i like to discuss and argue about god and faith just as much as the next guy/gal/other, but i think that we have to be aware that all our arguments about this topic are just fancy head-dressing. of course, in the case of anselm, whose argument partially leaves the dogma, it is pretty easy to point out how absurd it is.
but you proved my point (i think) with the descartes quote. according to descartes, if we want to believe in god and if we perceive god (or want to perceive god), god must exist. but on the same token i can just as readily say: "hey man, i don't perceive anything that is god or whatever." and the descartesque notion will have a hard time showing me anything that i might perceive as god or the necessity of god.
it's a dogma, it's purely subjective and has no absolute measure to it other than itself. just like our precious numbers. i dare you to try and prove that they do exist. mathematicians have lost their mind over that. : )

[quote matt - man, mystery, meatball] That is my inherant problem with faith; there is no definitive answer to anything. But on the other hand, and people can tell, it's my favorite part of faith. I could argue each side forever, never choosing one. I retain that even the possbility of a deity is enough to argue for the existance of that deity. [/quote]

well, i guess that's why it's called 'faith' and not 'knowledge' or 'fact' - because there IS NO definitive answer to it. and i wholeheartedly concur with you: even if such arguments will (imo) never yield an answer to the core question, they will definitely spin off many, many other insights about the human condition.
personally i hold an (approachment of an) agnostic's view: there might or there might not be a god - it doesn't matter to me.

oh yeah, something else (off topic): i think especially philosophers should be very careful with talking about 'flaws' or 'flawed statements'. doubly so when it comes to axiomatic discussions.
 
 
Quantum
14:24 / 27.10.05
Descartes is talking about synthetic a priori truths there, necessary truths that are learned.
It's a common stance (that I hold) that such beasts are impossible.
Any NECESSARY (analytic, a priori, logical) truth is a TAUTOLOGY apprehended by pure analysis in my opinion, any CONTINGENT (synthetic, a posteriori, empirical) truth is learned from experience. Descarte's ontological argument tries to have it's synthetic cake and necessarily eat it. You can't cross the beams.

There is no defensible ontological argument, even if you accept 'X exists' as a meaningful statement- the closest you can get is that the idea of God must exist.
 
 
matthew.
17:11 / 27.10.05
Quantum: I admit confusion with your post. Are you saying that Descartes' argument is a paradox? That he's trying to say that the argument is innate knowledge that you learn? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
(Also, was your "cross the beams" a reference to Ghostbusters? Haha)

werwolf:

You wrote: but i think that we have to be aware that all our arguments about this topic are just fancy head-dressing.
You're 100% right. It's not like you and I, on this board, on this thread, are going to ever solve (what i think is) mankind's greatest mystery: is there a God?

You also wrote: personally i hold an (approachment of an) agnostic's view: there might or there might not be a god - it doesn't matter to me.
This is exactly why I find this stuff so fascinating. It doesn't matter if there's a right or wrong answer; I just like to "shoot the shit" over it. It's fun and it's harmless.

You also wrote: it's purely subjective and has no absolute measure to it other than itself. just like our precious numbers. i dare you to try and prove that they do exist.
When I was in high school there was a course called "Theory of Knowledge" which was a fancy title for, essentially, Intro to Philosophy. We talked about the problem of proving numbers caused they're really only labels (and other problems that I don't remember) and I told somebody about what I "learned" about numbers, and they told me I was crazy. I'm glad to see somebody agrees with me on that subject.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
19:00 / 27.10.05
Matt - if you like Anselm's ontology try Spinoza's 'of god' in the ethics - quite lovely but ultimately incoherent once one no longer lives in a finite universe.
 
 
matthew.
02:24 / 28.10.05
thanks for the suggestion. will hunt down.
 
 
Quantum
14:12 / 28.10.05
Are you saying that Descartes' argument is a paradox? That he's trying to say that the argument is innate knowledge that you learn? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

No, just that his argument appeals to the notion of objective necessary truth that you learn from experience, which I believe to be false. Inother words premise 1) in the potted version of Descartes in your post above is false.
Any Analytic truth is a tautology. The relation of the length of the hypoteneuse to the other sides of a right angle triangle is a truth equivalent to 'All batchelors are unmarried males'. Necessarily true, but doesn't tell you anything about batchelors, it's like saying 'horses are horses'. It's true but trivial.

(Also, was your "cross the beams" a reference to Ghostbusters? Haha) Yup. 'Imagine every atom in your body exploding at the speed of light', that's what happens if you posit synthetic a priori truth. :]
 
 
matthew.
03:10 / 01.11.05
I want go back to something earlier.

Mirror wrote: God without the universe is surely less perfect than God with the universe.

This isn't directed to Mirror specifically, but to fellow theologians in general.

What if we believe that God is completely impartial to the universe as a whole? By that I mean, if God exists, and he's perfect, and perfection means complete and utter omniscience and power, what if He stood outside the universe and just watched? He knows what's going to happen, and he simply watches it.

So here's my move: if God creates evil, because He creates everything with a word, then isn't God responsible for the world and the evil in there? Morally, I mean?

1) God is simply a watchmaker who sets in motion the universe/watch.
2) God is responsible for the problem of evil (he has to be if he created everything)
3) God is therefore at fault for creating something destructive to the watch/universe (ie evil)
4) Therefore, he ain't perfect.
5) Therefore, he can't exist using Anselm's logic.
 
 
werwolf
14:03 / 02.11.05
ok. i make this as stupid as i can:

.) how exactly is 'evil' a problem?
.) define 'evil'.
.) are we talking about 'absolute universal evil' or 'evil as perceived by parts of humanity'?
.) define perfection.

so here's something i suggest:

p1.) we don't know whether this universe is perfect or not.
p2.) we assume that if god exists, he/she/it must be perfect.
p3.) god can only exist in a perfect environment.

add to that:

d1.) god is omnipotent and omniscient.
d2.) perfection is a perceived quality, not an absolute.

therefore:

c1.) god exists for humans as soon / as long as there is a human who believes there to be something perfect.
c2.) god exists only for that human.
c3.) god cannot exist for anybody who does not believe in perfection.

according to this anselm is right, even though he might have logical mistakes in his argument. okay, i admit that this post is a bit inflammatory and probably stupid to boot, but... it works. well, not for me, because i don't believe in perfection, but for others it might.
 
 
matthew.
15:01 / 02.11.05
I like this part: c2.) god exists only for that human..

You say, "define evil". I'm not going to; I'm going to alter my points.

This is what I wrote:
1) God is simply a watchmaker who sets in motion the universe/watch.
2) God is responsible for shrinking of the Universe, which is inevitable.
3) God is therefore at fault for creating something destructive to the watch/universe (ie the Big Implosion)
4) Therefore, he ain't perfect.
5) Therefore, he can't exist using Anselm's logic.
 
  

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