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I'm confused

 
 
Elbereth
02:56 / 21.10.05
I have a little problem with someone i'm dating and im not sure if its my fault or not. i'm probably just being too sensitive. I'm dating a guy from Taiwan and obviously there are some cross-culture differences mainly religion but also some things which i really have a hard time dealing with. My boyfriend doesn't like Jewish people, some people who happened to be Jewish were mean to him and he thought it was because he was "yellow", which is fine with me I understand racial and cultural weirdness and I figured he would get over after being around nice Jewish people for a while. He likes black people and Latinos just fine and has no preconceived notions about them. But then he said the other day that 1)Jewish people should stop whining about the holocaust. 2) Jewish people caused in part or whole WWII and thus partly got what they deserved 3) Americans don't teach the correct things about WWII and Jewish involvment, I questioned him specifically and it wasnt any of the things i know americans dont teach about like napalming japan or the rape of nanking or Dresden or other atrocities and he wouldn't explain it because i get mad and mean when people imply that an entire race deserves to die for any reason. So my question is, Do they actually teach different things about Jewish involvment in WWII in other countries? (specifically Taiwan)Could i be grotesquely misunderstanding him (he's only been speaking english for three years)? and Has anyone experienced this kind of thing before because it totally came out of left field. I mean he's nice and sweet and open to changing and learning about new cultures and is wonderful to all my Jewish friends and business partners. He has also stated that alot of Jewish people get into Law and business and entertainment to better control the country and media. It sounds like hes a nice open minded liberal Nazi which just confuses me to no end. He also seems to think all asian people feel this way. I just want to try to understand him before i cut him loose
 
 
*
06:55 / 21.10.05
Elbereth, this probably doesn't belong in Head Shop, and if you want to know if other people from Taiwan feel this way, you might ask some other people from Taiwan. Possibly with the use of tact. Remember that spouting racist crap you've heard from other people is still spouting racist crap.
 
 
MacDara
07:44 / 21.10.05
Remember that spouting racist crap you've heard from other people is still spouting racist crap.

If that were always the case, then no one could ever have a meaningful discussion about race issues, or explain why the racist crap is wrong in the first place. Repeating something (in context) that someone else has said does not imply that what you are repeating represents your own intentions. Apologies if I'm stating the obvious, but I just had to get that point out of the way.

Now, as for whether this thread belongs here? Sure, there are plenty of philosophical issues surrounding the race taboo (my previous paragraph is proof of that) which would make for a useful discussion. But I don't see that there's any confusion here: from what you've repeated, Elbereth, the guy's an anti-semite pure and simple. Even down to the old 'Jews control the media' line. I wouldn't be surprised if he reads The Protocols of the Elders of Zion at night. Pathetic, really.

If I'm sensing any confusion about this whole topic, it's this: why all the hatred towards Judaism? (I confess here that I haven't read much about it historically, which explains my ignorance on the matter.)
 
 
Elbereth
09:55 / 21.10.05
ok i get it wrong place to discuss this or something. I put in for it to be deleted. But they do teach the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in some asian and middle eastern countries as fact and if you come over from another country after being taught that and bunch people who happen to be rich and jewish tell you that you are an idiot for not being able to speak english in three weeks time you get another chance in my book. not a big chance but still, maybe something.
 
 
Cat Chant
10:01 / 21.10.05
[mod hat]

Elbereth, I'd like to leave this thread here for the moment because I think your questions are sincere and hence the thread has a chance to develop interestingly. (There's a strong chance that it won't develop interestingly, of course, and I think there'll be a close moderator eye on this one.)

I have a couple of things I'd like to say right at the start: one of them is a request to avoid phrases like "other countries"* (this is an international board - we're all in "other" countries to someone) or "obviously there are some cross-culture differences" (we don't know what culture you're from, so it's not obvious whether it's different from this guy's). In other words, not everyone you're talking to is white or American, or assumes that you are.

Have a look at this thread, on 'black homophobia', for some examples of good and bad ways of talking about similar issues.

With that in mind, I'd like to reframe the starting point of this thread a bit. The question of whether you should be dating this guy belongs in the Conversation. If this thread's staying in the Head Shop, it should probably centre on this question:

Do they actually teach different things about Jewish involvment in WWII in ... Taiwan?

and related questions: anti-Semitic bias in different education systems, and perhaps more general cross-cultural things. (The Protocol of the Elders of Zion, which someone's already raised, is an interesting case, since it's been suggested in this post that it can be put to different uses in different cultures.)

I've requested a moderate to the abstract accordingly.

(I have to leave the internet now, but if anyone has time to dig up some links to other threads on anti-Semitism, that would be just super.)

*Like I said, I've moderated the abstract, which originally read 'questions about race in other countries'.
 
 
grant
14:01 / 21.10.05
Let me do something non-theoretical -- my sister lived in Taiwan for a year. I'll ask her about this and get back.

Things to know about Taiwan: current gov't considers itself the gov't-in-exile of China, was established there in 1949. During the Eastern side of WWII, the Nationalists (who later fled to Taiwan) and Communists both helped defend China against the Japanese, but there's some history of the Nationalists taking bribes to surrender cities (and actually going so far as to leave jerry cans of gas on the Shanghai wharf for the invading Japanese to fuel up their vehicles). I don't know how much ideology the Nationalists shared with the fascist Japanese, and I don't know if fassho subscribed to European ideas about racial purity and anti-Semitism (since there really aren't a heck of a lot of Jews in Japan).

Also, there's a commonly repeated statement in expat communities that the Chinese are the Jews of Asia -- there are close-knit communities in a kind of diaspora, similar emphases on professional careers, and I don't know what else, but you hear people say it a lot. I have no idea if it's also said within those communities or just by Anglosphereans in Asia.
 
 
grant
14:36 / 21.10.05
Review of interesting book Jews in the Japanese Mind in religious journal First Things.

Japan (which is, let's be very very clear, not Taiwan) is complicated:

Their exposure to Western anti-Jewish stereotypes notwithstanding, a number of turn-of-the-century Japanese converts were determined to forge a Christianity with a uniquely Japanese identity, and promulgated a uniquely daft form of philo-Semitism. In extravagant interpretations of Scripture and archeological evidence, these clergymen found confirmation of their "millennial fantasy" that the Jews and the Japanese were a fraternal "holy people" with a shared mission to usher in Christ's second coming. (Several present-day quasi-Christian sects in Japan echo this doctrine.) On an entirely different level, historical developments, particularly financier Jacob Schiff's fervent fundraising on behalf of Japan during the Russo-Japanese War, contributed to a fascination with what seemed to be the Jews' astounding business talents and powerful worldwide networks.

Virulent anti-Semitism regained its momentum, however, in a vicious xenophobic form with the translation and dissemination of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion by Japanese army officers after World War I. The grotesque appeal of this book has never waned in Japan, and for the last ten years variations on its themes have topped Japanese best-seller lists. As Goodman and Miyazawa point out, early editions of The Protocols had a phenomenal effect on vast segments of Japan's intelligentsia: on the one hand, they stoked the paranoia of ultranationalist right-wingers; and, perhaps more ominously for the fate of pluralism and freedom of conscience in pre-World War II Japan, the book transformed many fervent Marxist activists and philo-Semitic Christian thinkers into rabid anti-Semites and added them to the ranks of the right-wingers.

Goodman and Miyazawa agree that "sheer political cynicism" underlay Imperial Japan's use of this groundswell of anti-Semitism as its armies bid for mastery of Asia. As far as the Japanese government was concerned, "The real significance of anti-Semitism . . . was its usefulness in formulating and maintaining Japanese nationalist ideology and not in facilitating the persecution of Jews." By no means were Japan's leaders prosecuting the war to satisfy any "homicidal hatred" of the Jews, regardless of the Nazi-inspired propaganda they actively employed. On the contrary, the Japanese made strenuous efforts to coax Jews in Asia into joining the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere as willing subjects.


So, wacky pro- and anti-Semitism linked to war propaganda and religious missionaries.

Now, let me look around for China.

The comments on this blog post on an antisemitic article in a Chinese magazine seem to follow the same pattern as the Japanese stuff above -- weird ideas imported from Christian missionaries at the turn of the century (and there were plenty of those), then twisted marginally during the world wars and by economic uncertainty.

The fact that Karl Marx was a Jew is probably not a selling point in virulently anti-Communist Taiwan.

Also interesting are the points that the Chinese commenters make that the internet is one factor that would allow ideas like these (anti-semitic memes) to spread rapidly in a largely, um, non-inoculated population.
 
 
*
17:21 / 21.10.05
If that were always the case, then no one could ever have a meaningful discussion about race issues, or explain why the racist crap is wrong in the first place. Repeating something (in context) that someone else has said does not imply that what you are repeating represents your own intentions. Apologies if I'm stating the obvious, but I just had to get that point out of the way.

Nope, you're right, it was late, I was cranky, and I was having a hard time taking the original poster's intentions at face value for some reason. I'll just bugger off then.
 
 
MacDara
18:12 / 21.10.05
Nope, you're right, it was late, I was cranky, and I was having a hard time taking the original poster's intentions at face value for some reason. I'll just bugger off then.

Hey, don't worry about it. We've all been tired and cranky sometimes.
 
 
grant
20:11 / 21.10.05
My sister confirms what some of the above blog posters referenced -- the Taiwanese never asked questions about religion/ethnicity, but were very interested in linking foreigners to their home countries. (Thinking of the confusion mentioned above, "If Marx was a German, how could he be Jewish?") They kind of knew about the Holocaust, but only in a distant way -- it was all very "other," from the sounds of it.
 
  
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