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Religious Syncretism

 
  

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babazuf
12:51 / 14.10.05
Even a priori reasoning is influenced by the senses.
 
 
Mirror
14:12 / 14.10.05
Which is a sophisty way of saying logic is just part of the deal, I suppose. What is A if it's not a representation?

A is a variable, a placeholder for which any entity can be substituted, so it doesn't actually represent anything itself; however, "A=A" is a representation of the identity relationship.

As far as I am concerned, the only thing that "I do not exist!" proves is that you don't not exist.

It doesn't prove that you exist as you perceive that you exist, but it does prove that you exist in the sense that you are able to make such propositions.

Back to syncretism. It occurs to me that Jack Fear's argument that faith is essential to the religious experience seems to be at odds with the Christian tradition of apologetics, which was more or less a syncretic response to the Age of Reason. Whether or not this was an appropriate response is probably a question for the ID thread because it seems like ID is sort of a modern parallel.

I'm feeling a bit lost here, but reading back over the thread the whole thing seems pretty incoherent so maybe I'm not the only one. Now, I can accept that faith in the unproven is critical to the religious experience, but what happens when an article previously affirmed by faith is disproven by reason and/or observation? If you maintain the faith, then you have a conflict with the rationalist and empiricist views of the world for which there is no resolution. If you want to keep your faith out of conflict, then it is necessary that you only have faith in those propositions which can be proven a priori to be unprovable.

In that light, religious syncretism seems pretty difficult - if you can't prove any of the propositions in which you're to have faith, there's no way to discriminate between contradictory statements. So, do you accept them all using some sort of weird Orwellian doublethink?
 
 
grant
16:47 / 14.10.05
A is a variable, a placeholder for which any entity can be substituted, so it doesn't actually represent anything itself; however, "A=A" is a representation of the identity relationship.


I don't understand how "A=A" can mean anything when "A" doesn't represent *something*.

If "A" doesn't represent anything, then "A=A" and "A=non-A" are both equally valid expressions, since "A" is a sign devoid of meaning.

On the other hand, if "A" represents something, I remain to be convinced that it always represents the same thing, since the act of representation itself is a vexed one.

Now, I can accept that faith in the unproven is critical to the religious experience, but what happens when an article previously affirmed by faith is disproven by reason and/or observation?

I'm not Jack, but... part of what I *think* he's been getting at, and what I know *I'm* getting at, is that articles of faith (or even the process of having faith in something) happens in a realm that is not the same as the one in which reason and observation operate.

Observations are interpreted; faith is a process of interpretation. Reason (in what I think is the sense we're discussing here) is another process, but one which operates in parallel. It's not on the same track.


If you want to keep your faith out of conflict, then it is necessary that you only have faith in those propositions which can be proven a priori to be unprovable.


Moreso neither provable nor unprovable (if that makes things any clearer -- I swear, I'm not *trying* to sound like Siddhartha Derrida, but that's what's coming out).


In that light, religious syncretism seems pretty difficult - if you can't prove any of the propositions in which you're to have faith, there's no way to discriminate between contradictory statements. So, do you accept them all using some sort of weird Orwellian doublethink?


Well, doublethink is holding two contradictory statements in your head at once; faith is holding two statements in your head that are more fundamentally dissimilar than that.

For instance, the statement, "An apple is red" is contradicted by the statement, "An apple is green." (Notice, he said slyly, that both can be true. Let's pretend I just said "An apple is blue" instead.)

However, the statement, "An apple is red," is not contradicted by the dissimilar statement, "An apple is sweet," or even, "An apple is a gift from the land."

In the case of the sweetness, we're still talking about physical qualities of appleness. In the case of the gift, we're talking about entirely different ways of apprehending apples. Reason and observation detect qualities of redness (objective) and sweetness (partially subjective), but are only tangentially involved in its valuation as a gift, as something for which to be grateful, as something which inspires a feeling of contentment and gratitude. That's an interpretive statement -- a statement of faith.

Does that make it make any more sense?
 
 
Mirror
18:33 / 14.10.05
I don't understand how "A=A" can mean anything when "A" doesn't represent *something*... If "A" doesn't represent anything, then "A=A" and "A=non-A" are both equally valid expressions, since "A" is a sign devoid of meaning.

Maybe I've spent too much of my time over the past several years writing code. A is simply a placeholder, and "A=A" can be rewritten in English as "A thing is itself." 1=1. To express your statements about apples in this way you'd need a different operator.

Moreso neither provable nor unprovable

If a proposition is neither provable nor unprovable, then is it even coherent?

the statement, "An apple is red" is contradicted by the statement, "An apple is green." (Notice, he said slyly, that both can be true. Let's pretend I just said "An apple is blue"

I don't see where you get the contradiction here. If you said, "This apple is red" is contradicted by "This apple is green" then I'd be with you, but all of the above statements can be proven to be simultaneously true without any fuss simply by presenting red, green, and blue apples.

I think I have a problem with your use of the word "is."
 
 
Mirror
18:38 / 14.10.05
That is, you're using the word "is" when you should be using the phrase, "has the property."
 
 
Foust is SO authentic
23:13 / 14.10.05
Grant, your attempts to escape non-contradiction really are kind of pointless. If contradictory statements can have identical truth value, then pretty much every statement we make about any topic becomes pointless.

If you are a passenger on a jetliner, you'd definately want the pilot to recognize non-contradiction when it comes to the landing procedure.

Or would you mind if the pilot was thinking "Retracted landing gears equals deployed land gears?"
 
 
grant
00:51 / 16.10.05
Well, to get even more mired in semiotics, I'd rather the pilot not entirely assume that because the instruments say the landing gear had deployed that meant that it had actually deployed. Because sometimes it hasn't, and the guy who remains a little nervous about that is more likely to pull up before a total wipeout.

I'm not entirely sure how we got from faith to that, though -- the intuition that sometimes instruments are wrong, perhaps?

I mean, I like logic and recognize its value in getting things done, but I don't think it's the only way of apprehending the universe or making unknowns known.

Maybe I've spent too much of my time over the past several years writing code. A is simply a placeholder, and "A=A" can be rewritten in English as "A thing is itself." 1=1. To express your statements about apples in this way you'd need a different operator.

I'm not sure things *are* themselves, entirely. It's convenient to believe they are, but sometimes, they'll surprise us. This might have more to do with sense data & perception, though... which is sort of my point. Logically, a thing is always itself... but *things* don't exist only logically.

Moreso neither provable nor unprovable

If a proposition is neither provable nor unprovable, then is it even coherent?


I'm smiling right now.

Is that unprovable? I'm not sure, maybe it is. If not, then is it coherent? Are guesses coherent?


the statement, "An apple is red" is contradicted by the statement, "An apple is green." (Notice, he said slyly, that both can be true. Let's pretend I just said "An apple is blue"

I don't see where you get the contradiction here. If you said, "This apple is red" is contradicted by "This apple is green" then I'd be with you, but all of the above statements can be proven to be simultaneously true without any fuss simply by presenting red, green, and blue apples.


Yeah, I think I was being sloppy and meaning "This specific apple." (I've seen ones that are both red and green at the same time, which is why blue is a better factual contradiction.)
 
 
Foust is SO authentic
08:10 / 16.10.05
I mean, I like logic and recognize its value in getting things done, but I don't think it's the only way of apprehending the universe or making unknowns known.

I don't think it is either.

Remember, this all started because I was trying to explore Jack's notions of syncretism - that two contradictory statements about the non-physical world can be equally true.
 
 
Mirror
16:12 / 17.10.05
I'm smiling right now.

Is that unprovable? I'm not sure, maybe it is. If not, then is it coherent? Are guesses coherent?


I think that "I'm smiling right now" implies a frame of reference, so I'd say that this proposition is provable within that frame of reference.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
20:10 / 17.10.05
I find it surprising that no one has quoted Niels Bohr yet ("There are great truths and trivial truths, and while the opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false, the opposite of a great truth is also true"), either in seriousness or play. Or just to make another oblique reference to the Principia Discordia.
 
 
babazuf
00:15 / 18.10.05
Bullshit makes the flowers grow and that's beautiful.
 
  

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