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'You could abort every black baby and crime would go down'

 
  

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Psych Safeling
16:31 / 06.10.05
he was making an implicit connection between 'black' and 'criminal.'

Not merely a connection, but an identity (see Haus above). If we assume his argument is valid (not sound), which he obviously does, then it relies on the identity black = criminal. This is incontrovertibly racial prejudice, since there exist blacks who are not criminals, and vice versa.
 
 
daynah
21:01 / 06.10.05
While watching Doctor Who (2005) the other day, my boyfriend said something cute. It was something along the lines of "God I love black english guys! Makes me want to slap every rich black guy in America who still thinks he has to talk ghetto, like it's in his genes are something. Black english guys are proof."

In the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Cynthia Tucker wrote about the crime in New Orleans and seemed to partially blame the fact that "black men are the likely parpetrators in more than 40 percent of the homicides in which a suspect has been identified" (a fact from the FBI's Uniform Crime Report, note the IDENTIFIED and that it's a homicide) on the "inexplicable popularity of a gangsta culture that glamorizes thug life."

So maybe there is something there for "classic" crime in America. We have the culture currently to back it up. I have black friends who are the geekiest "white washed" Mario Kart lovers you'll ever meet when we're playin' games, but when we're at the mall, on comes the hat and the walk and the voice.

Not to say that black people have crime, but the culture is supporting the stereotype. Honestly, it's not like the majority of blacks are arguing the -culture-. These rude statements, yes. The rappers talking about raping people and putting bullets into east side and stuff, no. And that's just going to throw more firewood into prejudice folk like this.

(on the other hand, how many rebel flags have I burned lately?)
 
 
*
22:20 / 06.10.05
Excuse me, Daynah, but I missed how wearing a hat and baggy pants implies a life of crime. Unless it's because black people do it, and black people are criminals, which gets us back to where we were before.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:13 / 07.10.05
Also, remarkably off-topic, although the Black British guys of the United Kingdom owe your boyfriend a vote of thanks. Since these rich black guys of whom you speak are unlikely to commit crimes, since crime is, if we believe the author of Freakonomics, largely a consequence of factors not directly connected to skin colour, would their abortion some decades back have affected any statistics other than the sales of baggy pants?
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
01:45 / 07.10.05
Also off topic, I just noticed that in the topic post I wrote that a radio show has 1.25 million viewers. You could abort me and intelligence would go up.
 
 
*
06:15 / 07.10.05
Arguable.




But typing errors might go down.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:56 / 07.10.05
The rappers talking about raping people

Which ones in particular were you thinking of?
 
 
diz
09:02 / 07.10.05
The rappers talking about raping people

Which ones in particular were you thinking of?


Well, there's Notorious R.A.P.E., for one, and Lil' Rapist.
 
 
The Falcon
10:59 / 07.10.05
Yes, with their famous team-cut: "I'ma rape some hoes and put some bullets in the East side (And I don't give a fuck if this puts more firewood into prejudicial people like this)"

Case. In. Point.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:15 / 07.10.05
I'm sure Fur-Q did something along those lines as well...
 
 
daynah
11:51 / 07.10.05
I was saying that there is a cultural movement encouraging violence, and a lot of that is rap. Don't get me wrong, I like rap. My friend doesn't do anything violent, but he's still influenced by the same culture by wearing what they're wearing and speaking the same way and things like that. Whether or not that part of american culture actually provokes people to acting that way is a matter entirely different, but it is going to provoke slightly prejudiced people into becoming completely prejudiced people, because people all across the nation are supporting it.

If the majority of rappers are black, and prejudice people only see rappers as singing about thug, gangsta life and violence and then black people that prejudice people are walking past dress in similar ways to the rappers and talk in a similar way to the rappers, these prejudice people are going to have an association of violence and thugs with black people.

To look at how these people view rap music, you also need to remember that they don't actually listen to rap music. They listen to, say, Fox News. They listen to the reporters saying that music is a bad influence on children and, muted, flashes on the screen a nearly naked Brittney Spears, Christina A... something, and more than a few rappers.

It's not a blame and definately not an excuse but a possible explination of how a problem got worse.


"Excuse me, Daynah, but I missed how wearing a hat and baggy pants implies a life of crime. "

You missed a lot, darling. Especially the part where I'm not racist and where my post was stating that the "culture is supporting the stereotype" to "prejudice folk like this."

They only get notified of the bad lyrics by black artists and see images of what those people are wearing and acting like. Then they see other people (the majority of which is back) mimicing these artists, and assume that these people follow whole heartedly the philosophy of the bad lyrics that they've heard and must be criminals. With damning statistics from the FBI's Uniform Crime Report like "black men are the likely perpetrators in more than 40 percent of the homicides in which a suspect has been identified", these prejudice people ignore the last few words "in which a suspect has been identified" and also ignore some lingering, certainly outdated statistics in my head that I can't remember the sources of. I seem to remember reading somewhere that though there's a larger percentage of identified black perpetrators of homicides, there's also a larger percentage of identified white perpetrators of rapes.

This is what goes through those people's heads. They intentionally stifle their flow of information (everyone does to some degree, though) and then they make certain assumptions with the information they have. Assuming is something the brain just naturally does. Dressing and acting like others and clumping yourself together is just something humans do, and in this case it has the backwards effect of worsening the assumptions. I really think this is what goes through the heads of those that were only moderately racist, then became more so.

All and all, I think the solution is just to play more R&B.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:59 / 07.10.05
So when you said:

Honestly, it's not like the majority of blacks are arguing the -culture-. These rude statements, yes. The rappers talking about raping people and putting bullets into east side and stuff, no.

- did you mean something other than that there are rappers who talk about raping people, and that "the majority of blacks" do not criticise this and other negative lyrical content to be found in hip hop?

Also, can I ask what the anecdote about your boyfriend was meant to illustrate, aside from his limitations?
 
 
*
20:09 / 07.10.05
Is every white person obligated to apologize for violent lyrics in death metal, or the negative portrayal of women in modern pop? Is every white person obligated to distance themselves from the representation of the white culture of sexism perpetuated by Britney Spears? Is the culture of colonialism in the patriotic songs most of us had to sing in school reflected in the red, white, and blue logo of Tommy Hilfiger clothing? I haven't heard anyone advocate for these ideas. These things are different, in part because the burden of racism is consistently placed on the backs of the people who are suffering for it already.

This kind of attitude ignores the large number of black people who don't listen to rap, the large number of white people who do, and the number of people making and listening to rap with positive messages (many of them distributing on street corners like the guy I talked to yesterday because they can't get signed to a label— white record executives think no one will listen to positive rap music). Why is this black people's responsibility? Black people are not in control of the industry, in control of the marketing— maybe a few are but it's mostly rich white record executives and marketing analysts. Why is it not just as much the responsibility of white kids not to fetishize the rap image? Why blame black people for perpetuating stereotypes and not white people for not taking the responsibility to educate ourselves (I'm included) out of those stereotypes in the first place?

I believe that you're not racist and I acknowledge that I didn't read your first post as carefully as I should have. But I feel that my negative stereotypes about rappers and people who dress similarly to rappers is my problem, and it's not black people's responsibility to dress differently so I can get over my own racism. It's my responsibility to think critically about who is doing the marketing, who is selling that image, and not to uncritically connect that image to racist beliefs like the one which spawned this thread. And if I can convince even a few other white people to more closely examine their stereotypes, it will be doing more to equalize relations than if I were to try to convince black people that they shouldn't wear "rapper clothes".
 
 
diz
23:41 / 07.10.05
Don't get me wrong, I like rap.

"Don't get me wrong, some of my best friends are nig...errr, black."
 
 
daynah
01:26 / 09.10.05
"Also, can I ask what the anecdote about your boyfriend was meant to illustrate, aside from his limitations? "

I thought it was kinda odd that he's would say it. I also like to have at least one sentence/paragraph in my posts that seems completely unrelated to what I'm actually trying to talk about, but really is if you think about it hard enough. Usually people don't. Quantum did one time. Quantum deserves a cookie.

"did you mean something other than that there are rappers who talk about raping people, and that "the majority of blacks" do not criticise this and other negative lyrical content to be found in hip hop?"

Yes, I meant something completely different from that. You nicely pulled one sentence out of context, and it does look like that. If you were to reread the sentence over and over again, especially if the first time through you didn't understand the sentence (which I do when reading people's posts a lot of times) it would be easy to take out of context.

First of all I'm going under the assuming that we are talking about A) Americans (this was said in America I do believe), B) Black Americans, and C) Black Americans who fit in a certain culture that doesn't really have a name but is characterized by listening to rap music, a certain manner of speaking, wearing certain similar name brands that I can't name off the top of my head, ect. ect. and so forth. Perhaps I should have said that in the first post.

These people may be arguing about the rude statements, saying they want peace and there's many of them that say that all the time. But they don't often argue against the rappers talking and singing and rapping about the stereotypical things that the prejudiced people hear off of Fox News and such. These people (see who I'm talking about, these are the back people the prejudice is pointed to, also note that my slightly racist boyfriend isn't prejudiced towards Brittish blacks) like the culture how it is and are going to continue it, even if it's one of the things that helps the prejudice against them.

I'm not saying they should change. I'm just noting the cycle. It should be the prejudice side to change, but we all know how well that works.

Anyone care to take a gander on what I meant by the R&B statement I said earlier meant? It actually had some purpose...
 
 
daynah
01:40 / 09.10.05
"First of all I'm going under the assuming that we are talking about A) Americans (this was said in America I do believe), B) Black Americans, and C) Black Americans who fit in a certain culture that doesn't really have a name but is characterized by listening to rap music, a certain manner of speaking, wearing certain similar name brands that I can't name off the top of my head, ect. ect. and so forth. Perhaps I should have said that in the first post."

To clarify this even more because I found one little loophole someone's going to catch onto... I'm making assumption letter A), as I said, because the statement was made in America. Letter B) because the statement was made about blacks. And Letter C) because it is assumed that these are the types of people that the radio talk show host was also assuming about. If you want to get inside someone's head, you have to work inside their assumptions to understand them. Because of the talk show host's view point on blacks (the association of blacks with crime, and probably poverty), it's safe to leave out a whole huge population of black Americans. And, since we all know the talk show host was intentionally trying to provoke people on stereotypes, we know what overdone stereotype of black person he's trying to convey the image of is of the "thug" or "gang" image. When prejudice people see a black person who is not a thug or gang member, but meets letter A, B and especially letter C, they, of course, pull to the stereotype.

So, then, to view the real people he's talking about, not the phantom stereotypes in his head, we look at these people who meet assumptions A, B and C.

By assuming what he's assuming we're making assumptions but assumptions are not a bad thing. If I didn't assume that my boyfriend wanted to be with me tomorrow, I'd probably... be one of those psycho chicks who always needs to be told "I love you" 24/7. If I didn't assume that my teacher was going to be a butt tomorrow by using past experience with her, I might go up to her acting like pals and get slapped. You have to assume things using past experience with someone to try to understand that person, or to vaguely predict the future with that person.

It's only assuming when you don't have past experience with that person or thing that's something a little odd to do.
 
 
quixote
02:28 / 09.10.05
Getting back to the question of the statistics on crime and whether black people commit more of it. There are actual statistics. I don't remember any of the numbers of course, but I do remember one thing because it struck me as rather under-reported: at the same income level fewer blacks commit crimes than do whites. The apparently high rate of black crime has--not unexpectedly--something to do with the high rate of black poverty.

And speaking of stereotypes, here's another interesting factoid. There was a conference in the early '90s to look at correlations between violent crime and other factors, race being one of them. It was considered an important factor. The organizers said there was nothing racist about focusing on it, given the evident correlations. Then someone pointed out that if significant correlates deserved attention, why was there no symposium about violence committed by men? 87% of all violent crimes are committed by men, and yet this wasn't even on the agenda. Somehow, nobody had noticed this clear and overwhelming correlation, even as they were exercised about black violence. The bleatings about not being racist died out. The symposium was cancelled.

The really interesting lesson from that, aside from how easy it is to ignore one's own racism, is how blind people can be to harm done by any powerful group. Curious, isn't it?
 
 
P. Horus Rhacoid
19:46 / 09.10.05
First of all I'm going under the assuming that we are talking about A) Americans (this was said in America I do believe), B) Black Americans, and C) Black Americans who fit in a certain culture that doesn't really have a name but is characterized by listening to rap music, a certain manner of speaking, wearing certain similar name brands that I can't name off the top of my head, ect. ect. and so forth. Perhaps I should have said that in the first post.

Don't assume this. Especially don't assume this: Because of the talk show host's view point on blacks (the association of blacks with crime, and probably poverty), it's safe to leave out a whole huge population of black Americans. The whole problem here is not that black people styling themselves in a certain fashion are being viewed as criminals (the implication being that they are deliberately associating themselves with criminality), it's that black people in general are being seen as criminals. There is not some vast swathe of African Americans dressed in some 'non-threatening' manner who are magically free of prejudice. If that were true, you wouldn't have black people driving cars with Yale bumper stickers pulled over because the officer assumed the car was stolen (happened to someone my dad knows), and the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air wouldn't make an episode when Will and Carlton are wrongly arrested due to their race. Simply put, this is a matter of race, not mode of dress. The association of black with criminal existed long, long before Fubu.

And, since we all know the talk show host was intentionally trying to provoke people on stereotypes, we know what overdone stereotype of black person he's trying to convey the image of is of the "thug" or "gang" image.

No. We don't know that at all. He said 'black people,' not 'black people who will grow up to listen to rap and wear baggy pants.' And he's not trying to convey an 'overdone stereotype' of black people fitting a certain image (the 'thug' or 'gang' image you identified), he is conveying an assumption that black people are more likely to commit crimes- because that is the assumption he has made himself.

By assuming what he's assuming we're making assumptions but assumptions are not a bad thing. If I didn't assume that my boyfriend wanted to be with me tomorrow, I'd probably... be one of those psycho chicks who always needs to be told "I love you" 24/7. If I didn't assume that my teacher was going to be a butt tomorrow by using past experience with her, I might go up to her acting like pals and get slapped. You have to assume things using past experience with someone to try to understand that person, or to vaguely predict the future with that person. It's only assuming when you don't have past experience with that person or thing that's something a little odd to do.

Eh what? Could you explain this a little further?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:58 / 10.10.05
< rot > Study: Euthanizing Right-wing Pundits would Solve Global Warming. < /rot >
 
 
diz
11:49 / 10.10.05
There is not some vast swathe of African Americans dressed in some 'non-threatening' manner who are magically free of prejudice. If that were true, you wouldn't have black people driving cars with Yale bumper stickers pulled over because the officer assumed the car was stolen (happened to someone my dad knows), and the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air wouldn't make an episode when Will and Carlton are wrongly arrested due to their race. Simply put, this is a matter of race, not mode of dress. The association of black with criminal existed long, long before Fubu.

Not only that, but daynah is basically saying that black youth are bringing racism down on themselves for, you know, perversely going around having a distinct culture of their own, with all that entails (distinct clothing, language, music, rituals, etc).

In her construction, white American cultural imperialism is nothing less than simple common sense, and minority cultures wouldn't have so many problems if they'd just go ahead and adopt the dominant culture like they obviously should. In much the same way that I would assume the Jews deserved the Spanish Inquisition or the Indians in Spanish New World colonies deserved various atrocities for blatantly refusing to convert to Catholicism. Because, I mean, they just went ahead and flaunted their cultural differences. It's only understandable that the dominant culture would brutalize them.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:51 / 10.10.05
If I didn't assume that my teacher was going to be a butt tomorrow by using past experience with her, I might go up to her acting like pals and get slapped. You have to assume things using past experience with someone to try to understand that person, or to vaguely predict the future with that person.

It's only assuming when you don't have past experience with that person or thing that's something a little odd to do.


Try applying this reasoning to a group rather than an individual and take note of where you end up. It's generally called prejudice because you're using your own experience with a limited number of people as your rule to judge many people by and why? Because they might be the same colour, wear similar clothes, have the same colour eyes, eat Braeburn apples, bite their nails, have ginger hair, drink coffee? Assumption is odd if you're using one example to represent and judge many people when it only logically applies to that one person.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:53 / 10.10.05
P.S. Is every female teacher (or every female or every teacher) going to be a butt because one is? No, only one female teacher is going to be.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:43 / 10.10.05
It's kind of a good illustration of what Bennet seemed to be doing, though, isn't it?
 
 
Cherielabombe
20:23 / 10.10.05
God I love black english guys! Makes me want to slap every rich black guy in America who still thinks he has to talk ghetto, like it's in his genes are something.

Well, perhaps not in his genes, but perhaps African American English (or, 'ghetto', as your boyfriend 'not racist' ly calls it - how cute!) is a large part of the speaker's personal and cultural identity, just as your way of speaking is large part of your and, dare I say it, your cute boyfriend's identity.

Let me explain. I note from your profile, you are from Georgia. I am from Chicago. While we both speak American English, we both speak different versions of it. I don't particularly want to sound like I'm from Georgia, and I doubt you want to sound like you're from the Midwest. Why? Because part of our identity as individuals is connected not only with what we speak (English) but how we speak it (with our regional accent).

It may interest your boyfriend - and you - to know that far from being 'ghetto' African American English has clear features of speech. Perhaps, these 'ghetto' speakers see speaking in that way because, consciously or subconsciously, it's part of their identity, rather than a blatant refusal to 'talk proper' like those black English guys.

/End of threadrot.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:36 / 10.10.05
Also, (resurrects threadrot), Micky precisely doesn't talk "proper" - in the same way that on conference calls to the States listeners often struggle to tell me and a colleague from Manchester apart, the overriding alien quality of the British part of the accent might be confusing you - Micky as acting with a working-class London accent, or thereabouts, for want of a better word. He isn't using particular slang, but that I would probably attribute to the desire of the writers to make his character easy to understand.
 
 
Rage
08:36 / 11.10.05
If every black baby was aborted... well... crime would go up. Abortions are illegal for black people.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:51 / 11.10.05
Just on the off chance, care to add something to the thread that shows any sign of having read it, Rage?
 
  

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