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'You could abort every black baby and crime would go down'

 
  

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Phex: Dorset Doom
19:28 / 30.09.05
Listen to the sound file here
It's a guy named Bill Bennet, a radio talk show host with an estimated 1.25 million viewers.
For those of you at work etc. here's a transcript of the call from the same site:

CALLER: I noticed the national media, you know, they talk a lot about the loss of revenue, or the inability of the government to fund Social Security, and I was curious, and I've read articles in recent months here, that the abortions that have happened since Roe v. Wade, the lost revenue from the people who have been aborted in the last 30-something years, could fund Social Security as we know it today. And the media just doesn't -- never touches this at all.

BENNETT: Assuming they're all productive citizens?

CALLER: Assuming that they are. Even if only a portion of them were, it would be an enormous amount of revenue.

BENNETT: Maybe, maybe, but we don't know what the costs would be, too. I think as -- abortion disproportionately occur among single women? No.

CALLER: I don't know the exact statistics, but quite a bit are, yeah.

BENNETT: All right, well, I mean, I just don't know. I would not argue for the pro-life position based on this, because you don't know. I mean, it cuts both -- you know, one of the arguments in this book Freakonomics that they make is that the declining crime rate, you know, they deal with this hypothesis, that one of the reasons crime is down is that abortion is up. Well --

CALLER: Well, I don't think that statistic is accurate.

BENNETT: Well, I don't think it is either, I don't think it is either, because first of all, there is just too much that you don't know.But I do know that it's true that if you wanted to reduce crime, you could -- if that were your sole purpose, you could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down. That would be an impossible, ridiculous, and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down. So these far-out, these far-reaching, extensive extrapolations are, I think, tricky.

So, my question is, what is Bennet's point here? Taken by itself the widely circulated soundbite 'you could reduce crime by aborting every black baby' (presumably, both crimes committed by impovrished blacks and those committed against them?) is disgusting, but Bennett goes on to call this notion, 'impossible, ridiculous, and morally reprehensible' -in other words he doesn't advocate it. But does this point to something a lot more ugly in Bennett's character, or the character of white people everywhere?
 
 
ibis the being
19:58 / 30.09.05
Um, white people everywhere? I certainly hope not.

I think what he was saying was he wouldn't actually advocate aborting black babies, but the fact of the matter is the root of crime in America is black people, and if we didn't have black people we wouldn't have crime. Thoroughly, revoltingly, undeniably racist, and I really don't see how anyone could spin it otherwise - even GWB came out to condemn it as "inappropriate" (whew, strong words, Dubya!).
 
 
sleazenation
22:08 / 30.09.05
If you aborted every baby and shot every adult until there was no one left then crime really would go down.
 
 
sTe
23:32 / 30.09.05
If you aborted every poor baby, crime eventually would go down, but then again it would work with any sort of babies. - less people, less crime
The fact that dissproportinate numbers of people who are black are also poor in America (and the world), and crimes in this 'area' of people are probably more likely to be reported than, say fraud and etc... leads people to think in thia way.
Most crime and "terrorism" is based on some sort of injustice, if governments and those in power made more effort in this, then we would see less 'needs/belief based crime' Anyway I am way off topic, I think, in the context quoted, the radio host was trying to raise a troublesome topic without agreeing in any way, to generate more calls, in the way radio twats do
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
23:45 / 30.09.05
Even so, why single out black people? Wouldn't replacing 'black' with 'poor' have offended less people (even though there are far more poor people than black people)? That's what I meant when I asked if the problem wasn't specific to Bennett, but to white people in general: thinking that black means poor and vice-versa.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
01:16 / 01.10.05
If the guy who said this was shot along with everyone else who ever said anything like this then racism would be drastically reduced on this planet.



But gun crime would go up.
 
 
P. Horus Rhacoid
01:23 / 01.10.05
Even so, why single out black people? Wouldn't replacing 'black' with 'poor' have offended less people (even though there are far more poor people than black people)?

More than a case of people associating 'black' with 'poor,' I'd say there's a widespread construction of 'black = criminal'. The American prison system is overwhelmingly biased against blacks and minorities– a disproportionate number are incarcerated compared to whites. The race of a person suspected of a crime tends to be one of the first things reported by the media. As prisons in the last century have moved further and further from the goal of rehabilitation and more and more towards punishment (with harsher sentencing laws, etc), the unspoken assumption is that those in prison are incapable of reform. (This also seems to be exactly what three strikes laws are saying, incidentally.) So when the majority of prisoners- especially those in maximum security prisons- are black, and when the media focuses on skin color when reporting crimes, there comes with that the association of black with criminal.

I think this, and Mr Bennett's remarks, might also be related to race being a more-easily identifiable signifier than economic status. You can't tell how much money someone makes by their mugshot.
 
 
grant
02:54 / 01.10.05
Bill Bennett: Not just a radio host. Former Secretary of Education (under Reagan, later a drug czar) who wrote books on values and the importance of morality in American society (The Book of Virtues). Got embarrassed when it was revealed he'd spent $8 million on slot machines. (Led to some great headlines, though.)

....And he refuses to back down. He says he was being like Swift. Because he was a philosophy major.
 
 
quixote
03:10 / 01.10.05
This isn't just any old radio talking head. Bill Bennett was the Secretary of Education during Reagan's time. Strong against abortion, for moral purity, and teaching the kiddies civic virtues, like having the ten commandments in every public building. (Sarcasm very intentional.) Later, to continue bringing light to a dark land, he wrote something called the Book of Virtue. The effect was somewhat diluted when he was found out to be a closet, high-stakes gambler. Now he's come up with a "solution" for the US crime rate.

Everybody keeps saying the US is the most powerful country on Earth, and Bill Bennett is far from the most hypocritical, corrupt, or stupid person who is or has been in government.

If I think about it enough, the top of my head lifts off, my mind starts to explode, and all I can do is hang on with both hands and hope for the best.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:06 / 01.10.05
So I think we've seen the new formulation of the old 'I'm not a racist but...' argument. I wouldn't give much weight to him describing the idea as morally reprehensible, after all he doesn't say anything about how he wouldn't do it, it would appear to be one of those 'the ends justify the means' doohickeys.

He would also be the crazy, as Timothy McVeigh would say if he hadn't been executed.
 
 
modern maenad
08:45 / 01.10.05
and aren't we/he operating within a very narrow, natch, narrow minded, bigoted definition of crime here? Assumption being that white collar, corporate crime doesn't enter the equation.....?
 
 
bjacques
09:17 / 01.10.05
Bennett can justify his words all he likes, but it still won't play well outside of East Texas. At least Swift, writing satirically about eating Irish babies, *was Irish* and already was known for having a sense of humor.

Bennett is a poltroon, just another white guy complaining he's not allowed to say "nigger." Life is so unfair. Curse those politically-correct thought police!
 
 
Quantum
14:17 / 01.10.05
"The crime iss life, the ssentence iss death!"
 
 
sleazenation
14:51 / 01.10.05
That was exactly what i was thinking about when i made my last post....
 
 
quixote
22:50 / 01.10.05
Hell. The slimeball can't even claim he said it unthinkingly. Today he was justifying and confirming this outrageous crap on ABC
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
23:51 / 01.10.05
The thing about the right wing in America is that the people who are at the forefront of it honestly believe they are untouchable. They can make comments like this, and ride out the shit-storm because they have their own media that stays on message and hammers through any of this kind of thing.

I DO think that there is a LARGE number of people who would be happy to keep the American people thinking Black = Poor = Criminal. It suits their political purposes, it suits their social purposes and it suits their financial purposes.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
07:50 / 02.10.05
In an interview with ABC News, Bennett said that anyone who knows him knows he isn't racist.

Sure, bringing race up seemingly unprompted (according to the transcript) and then making the relationship between black people and crime? Let's be clear, not racist IN ANY WAY. But then getting away with shit isn't a Republican thing, it's a power thing.
 
 
grant
15:06 / 03.10.05
A Bill Bennett story from someone who helped put Internet-ready computers in public school classrooms.


Nut graf: At any rate, since Mr. Bennett had been Secretary of Education I asked him to support the bill in the crucial stage when we needed Republican allies. He told me he would not help, because he did not want public schools to obtain new funding, new capability, new tools for success. He wanted them, he said, to fail so that they could be replaced with vouchers,charter schools, religious schools, and other forms of private education. Well, I thought, at least he's candid about his true views.
 
 
Lysander Stark
10:10 / 04.10.05
Maybe I am being stoopid here, but is Bennett not using the Freakonomics statistic to demonstrate precisely how dangerous and foolish it is to use statistics to make a big point? He is using someone else's example in order to show the caller that the missing tax boon of the unborn dead is a ridiculous statistic. And that kind of statistic is precisely what Freakonomics is largely about.

Another example would be the statistic favoured by an old friend of mine-- he used to point out that smokers were at far less risk than non-smokers of being run over by an ice-cream van. Of course, a little investigation shows that the percentage of people run over by ice-cream vans who are under 5 is huge, and not many toddlers smoke, so of course it is logical that smokers are statistically at less risk in such a situation... The point in both, regardless of Bennett's views on virtue or gambling or even abortion, is that people should not take published statistics at face value. Governments throughout history, doubtless including his own, have known how to massage numbers and figures to show exactly what they want, playing into their own hands. Statistics can be used to say anything, but always appear relentless and objective and cold.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:06 / 04.10.05
Well, yes and no. That is, yes, he's showing that you can prove things with statistics which are highly selective in the information they provide. The idea that all the children who had been aborted would have contributed nothing but cash to the economy, without there being any other impact on the economy from millions of head of extra population is a false proposition which uses a limited statistical viewpoint (where 1 person = a set addition to federal funds).

However, the example he provides does not map. First up, because the reductio ad absurdum here is not aborting black people, but aborting people. Using that statistical model, any reduction in population results in a corresponding reduction in criminality, as a certain number of the people not existing through abortion would be criminals and, since they have not been born, are now not criminals. As a statistical model, blackness or whiteness doesn't come into that.

So, the statistical position here depends on the idea that, ceteris paribus, a black person is more likely to commit crime than a white person. That's a statistical nonsense, because if we assume that the currently aborted in the previous example functioned only as economic positives, we also have to assume that the currently unaborted in this example function only as criminal positives - that is, again, that their colour is statistically irrelevant.

So, we go from pure statistics into the much murkier world of applied statistics. At which point the model becomes highly complex. What is crime? Would the specific abortion of all black people reduce it? Are we counting white-collar crime, for example? It's pretty clear that Bill Bennett was _not_ - his subsequent explanation that he was thinking about New Orleans demonstrates that. he was, in fact, thinking about the sort of violent crimes against property and person about which wealthy, white America seems to be disproportionately concerned, and associating those crimes with blackness rather than, say, with being stuck in the middle of a destroyed city.

So, Bennett's statement is bad statistics, and also bad broadcasting. He is saying "you say that that can be proven with statistics, but this too can be proven with statistics, and it doesn't mean that there is a compelling social argument on those grounds either for banning abortion or for making abortion compulsory for black people". However, he introduces the idea of truth, which is foolish, and also he associates crime with black people, which messes with his proposition of statistical accuracy as, as has been mentioned above, any reduction of population portrayed in those terms is likely to see a drop in crime - therefore, it is neither true nor statistically complete to select black people, and to do so shows an instinctive identification of crime as illegal stuff that black people do.

Since his first criticism of the statistical argument for banning abortion was that it was not statisticaly complete - on the grounds that many of those aborted would be the children of single-parent families, and thus would actually be a drain on funds rather than a boost to the economy (which seems to have been ignored in the larger brouhaha), to add a specific qualifier about race to the Freakonomic example is a rather odd decision.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:10 / 04.10.05
It does seem rather pointless- based purely on statistics, you could abort every white baby and crime would also go down. Abort every tenth baby that comes along- crime would go down. Abort every baby that the mother was planning to name "Dave"- same thing.
 
 
ibis the being
12:11 / 04.10.05
Maybe I am being stoopid here, but is Bennett not using the Freakonomics statistic to demonstrate precisely how dangerous and foolish it is to use statistics to make a big point?

I don't think you're being stupid, but perhaps giving the man too much credit. He's not examining statistical deception so much as countering the caller's stats with a heap of cultural stereotypes and personally-held beliefs - not exactly a logical analysis here.

[CALLER] I've read articles in recent months here, that the abortions that have happened since Roe v. Wade, the lost revenue from the people who have been aborted in the last 30-something years, could fund Social Security as we know it today. And the media just doesn't -- never touches this at all.

BENNETT: Assuming they're all productive citizens?


He makes his connection immediately - aborted babies come from poor, "unproductive," welfare families. No, wait, not families -

I think as -- abortion disproportionately occur among single women? No.

What kind of single moms? From here he jumps right from the unproductive single moms to crime -

I mean, it cuts both -- you know, one of the arguments in this book Freakonomics that they make is that the declining crime rate, you know, they deal with this hypothesis, that one of the reasons crime is down is that abortion is up.

And then, as we've all seen, to race. I think as many public racist comments are, it was spontaneous... this was not a reasoned argument on the broader topic, it was a reaction to the caller's idea that aborted babies would ever have been taxpayers, and revealed Bennett's ugly inner well of classist and racist assumptions.
 
 
rising and revolving
16:18 / 04.10.05
Is it a racist assumption to assume that a larger percentage of crimes are committed by black people that white in the USA?

Defining 'crimes' here in the only actual measurable manner you can - people prosecuted. No need to get into whether it was a white-collar crime, or a crime against the wealthy middle class. Just crime, as it's usually defined - i.e., by the law.
 
 
m
16:18 / 04.10.05
Not that I want to defend him or anything, but Bennett might have had in mind the Justice Department Report that came out the same week. It stated that overall crime rates in America have declined, but that 1/3 of young black men are currently awaitng trial, on parole, or in prison. I tried to find a link to the report, but the best that I could find was a segment on NPR's News & Notes that is followed appropriately enough by a discussion of Bennett's statements. Here's the address, since I haven't figued out how to properly post links:
http://www.npr.org/templates/rundowns/rundown.php?prgId=11&prgDate=30-Sep-05
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:24 / 04.10.05
Is it a racist assumption to assume that a larger percentage of crimes are committed by black people that white in the USA?

To assume so? Yes. There are data out there, which I would suggest looking at before assuming anything. This before we go on to whether black people are more likely to be arrested, to be prosecuted and to be incarcerated than white people.
 
 
rising and revolving
17:23 / 04.10.05
"This before we go on to whether black people are more likely to be arrested, to be prosecuted and to be incarcerated than white people."

Which problem we get away from if we use the definition I cited, don't we?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:31 / 04.10.05
Not really, no - your definition states that a crime is something for which you are prosecuted. Therefore, if more black people than white people are arrested and prosecuted as a proportion of black people breaking the law than white people, your definition fails to take into account that factor. For example, if both a white person and a black person are carrying concealed weapons, and the black person is more likely to be stopped and searched, then in that small group more black people than white people are prosecuted, but the same number have committed a crime.

So, if your contention is that more black people than white people are prosecuted for crimes, regardless of how many crimes are committed, then your assumption is specific but limited. It is also a contention that can presumably be supported or disproved by statistical research. As such, yes, the assumption that it is the case without recourse to available statistics is potentially racially prejudicial. What you could say, certainly, is that if there were no black people then fewer black people would be prosecuted.
 
 
m
19:20 / 04.10.05
Thanks for the above link fix.
 
 
rising and revolving
20:46 / 04.10.05
"So, if your contention is that more black people than white people are prosecuted for crimes, regardless of how many crimes are committed, then your assumption is specific but limited."

That would be precisely my contention, if indeed I were making one.

"As such, yes, the assumption that it is the case without recourse to available statistics is potentially racially prejudicial."

And the million dollar question : why is everyone assuming that Bill is making an assumption, and not referring to statistics?

We can debate the definition of crime until the cows come home - but the question really isn't what we think it is, but what Bill thinks it is, surely?

Or are we not trying to understand what he meant, and instead trying to define it for him?

Is there a more useful definition of a crime for the purposes of statistical gathering than the simplest legal definition? And is there any reason to presume Bill was not using the word in this sense?
 
 
daynah
22:40 / 04.10.05
Just to ponder: If you consider abortion murder, then crime would sky rocket, wouldn't it?

He seems to think it's morally reprehensible... so... I dunno. After that, I think crime would sky rocket and we'd have riots of people, no matter the stance on abortion, would start mass murdering doctors and people involved.

For things like this to work, you first have to get the country to believe what you're doing is the right thing to do.
 
 
P. Horus Rhacoid
01:35 / 05.10.05
And the million dollar question : why is everyone assuming that Bill is making an assumption, and not referring to statistics?

Because this was an off-the-cuff statement. He didn't say 'well, statistically a higher percentage of black people are incarcerated than white people, therefore you could make the argument that aborting black babies would lead to a lower crime rate, though such a statement would be patently ridiculous and a horrible twisting of statistics.' He might also have gone on to point out that there's no actual correlation between crime rate and rate of incarceration, that many crimes go unreported (especially white collar crime, I suspect, since the victims are less obvious than the victim of, say, a murder) and that the system is horribly racist. (Side note: I actually read an article suggesting that, based on the number of crimes committed on a daily basis that aren't prosecuted, you actually are more likely to be arrested if you are black than if you actually commit a crime. I wish I could go into more detail about this- the article was, I think, by Anita Davis, but she was citing somebody else in that portion. No idea who. End tangential side note.) The fact that he didn't qualify his statement in any way, other than to call the suggestion morally reprehensible, suggests that he was making an implicit connection between 'black' and 'criminal.' Even if he did rigorously qualify his statement, it's still puzzling to bring race into it in the first place, as Haus points out upthread. It would prove his point equally well to replace 'black babies' with 'babies,' and actually would have made more sense in response to the caller's initial argument, given that race didn't come into play there at all.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:38 / 05.10.05
And the million dollar question : why is everyone assuming that Bill is making an assumption, and not referring to statistics?

Everyone isn't. I said that, having discussed the statistical basis of his statement above. The assumption I was referring to was yours:

Is it a racist assumption to assume that a larger percentage of crimes are committed by black people that white in the USA?

As I have already said, to assume this when data exists either to prove or disprove it suggests a conclusion has already been drawn without recourse to facts, and that one of the bases for that conclusion may well be attitudes to race in the individual and the sources providing the basis for the individual's assumption.

Second up, you talk about the legal definition of crime, but I think the legal definition of crime is rather more complex than "people prosecuted". It is an offense for which a criminal prosecution may be brought, very roughly. Therefore, see my example above. If you mean prosecution rates or conviction rates - well, that's another question.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:00 / 05.10.05
Interesting to see what Levitt, the author of Freakonomics, has to say about this:

Race is not an important part of the abortion-crime argument … [O]nce you control for income, the likelihood of growing up in a female-headed household, having a teenage mother, and how urban the environment is, the importance of race disappears for all crimes except homicide. (The homicide gap is partly explained by crack markets). In other words, for most crimes a white person and a black person who grow up next door to each other with similar incomes and the same family structure would be predicted to have the same crime involvement.

More on this here.
 
 
rizla mission
14:47 / 05.10.05
I can imagine this guy putting a lot of hard work into trying to come up with a simple one sentence statement guaranteed to offend absolutely everybody in the world.

Months of sleepless nights, and then finally.. "eureeka!"
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:00 / 05.10.05
Well, it didn't offend Sean Hannity. Perhaps the arm he had replaced with bionics was nicked by unborn black people...
 
  

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